Re: About the "hello world" program

[David Crayford]

On 2020-04-11 8:42 AM, Dale R. Smith wrote:

After "Hello World!" maybe the next step would be "99 Bottles of Beer"!:-)>

http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/

After a few real beers, the virtual beers would be a lot harder!  Ha Ha



haha, some creative soul has even done JCL using utilities 
http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-jcl-6.html


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach 
>elsewhere.

 

Um.no kidding. What's your point?


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How to change the default '.java' extension to '.jav'?

[CM Poncelet]

Greetings everyone,
 
Java was originally called Oak, which would have had a DOS 8.3 '.oak'
extension. 
 
I understand that the default ',java' extension is arbitrary and can be
changed to a compiler recognized 3-char extension such as '.jav', instead.
 
Does anyone know how to change this default '.java' extension to a
3-char one, such as '.jav',  that DOS and SPF/PC could then edit,
compile and run?
 
TIA
 
Chris Poncelet (retired sysprog)

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

Well, there was that one bit about a "40-year-old system comprised of a COBOL 
mainframe and four other separate systems".  But it's attributed to an 
anonymous "leader from Connecticut"; maybe the writer of the article flinched 
as badly as I did, but didn't feel obligated to say so.

(Once I learned that "comprise" is does not mean "compose", you see, I have to 
point it out wherever possible.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman to hear him, is he still 
wrong?  -George Carlin */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 17:17

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote 
from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the 
stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be 
clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI 
standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen 
this wasn’t that bad.

--- On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/

> Spot the huge errors.

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Re: About the "hello world" program

[Dale R. Smith]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 12:43:00 -0400, Steve Smith  wrote:

>Besides Bob's rationale, getting HelloWorld to compile & run also ensures
>that the infrastructure & environment you need is present and working.
>
>sas
>
>On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:11 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
>> Just my opinion, but if you mean the hello-world program is maximally
>> trivial, fine.  But it does have its importance:  It demonstrates to every
>> new programming student or wannabe that HE CAN MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.  That
>> first recognition can be pretty cool to watch.  It's also the first thing I
>> write when tackling a new language; when I can get my first program to
>> display "Hi, there!", I know I'm on the right track.
>>
>> I never sneer at that particular first step, however trivial it seems
>> later.
>>
>> ---
>> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

After "Hello World!" maybe the next step would be "99 Bottles of Beer"!  :-)>

http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/

After a few real beers, the virtual beers would be a lot harder!  Ha Ha

-- 
Dale R. Smith

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III  wrote:
> 
> Spot the huge errors.
> 

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote 
from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the 
stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be 
clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI 
standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen 
this wasn’t that bad.


-- 
Pew, Curtis G
curtis@austin.utexas.edu


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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Sigh:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/

 

Spot the huge errors.


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Re: About the "hello world" program

[Charles Mills]

Also tells you something about the language. Consider Hello World in Rexx, 
Assembler and COBOL. You would see that

- Rexx is pretty darned straightforward.
- COBOL is verbose.
- Nothing is trivial in assembler. (Not too bad if WTO is a valid approach, but 
if it requires opening a DCB, ...)

When Python came up on this list and I got curious about Python I found a Hello 
World program and was able to say "okay, I kind of get what Python is like."

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of scott Ford
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 11:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: About the "hello world" program

Yep, a IVP

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

I notice that it doesn't mention DOS/VSE. To the best of my knowledge it 
doesn't require a license.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mark Jacobs [0224d287a4b1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 12:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

This may help answering your question.

http://secure-web.cisco.com/10DcdA9nKd5lBIgGr669rpMb9_10BDU9jnBfjxbWc_ab0yGQlQYdF8AFiNlLd91hKgQn11gFnGGmxS7qvaBh2lNhKfhbQTYhDSvg1MUAYl_ukqAXBHOlFePhEyPlcoD1spem8RIUDaMoQuCN6u8Tnqxluf3wfg_oD9PoTAj2i8SBuNteaH_szaphVlPNZLVtZozGFgkx9boCeIi3qA351Xs_ubk0InvGdGjztMHH1nW2OlkzGIh165PhLLAHc8rnbHPnrtasMPP0s3TimTPt9zCIAw2bU81f2CsLlhOeCLJ0OuQcfoweJgjfljVO5eAJ4A4WVoWbjrzvtrrX99-kjgK5iK_TcebXjF2ej9UiKnv8gos1PRFGi0JVN_DcCWojRaYqHg35rsLPTUjNqD5sS8R1H_4ddqBIk2yz6tHZLTDZcpOeWDJwczvESnRp53Pab/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hercules-390.eu%2Fhercfaq.html#1.01

Mark Jacobs

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

GPG Public Key - 
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ihbTqUREfS2Y2DO-Tbozk5pBBSrdYoUciYAQ1Q5HOZr2KlHBA3cLST5gY2rAkBAnHdVGK8iDYwoMRyTb0enxni2D1Mb9TRVFG62-ENn9LxdCymzONIDg0VG-brfyN3wNTK0dIrnNxaqGLPPb1WlWiu3KGlmeAtz3RQbdD6oFv7TsRCDYVUGQ1S3ghAQZmEEEuYvt_dOUwqkBuYOi9rHNT2SXI0Qgv11YB18O6-QnN2Pd_sQDWO9nFkkp1KCD2GexWUQakXIPqmDFLSFfEt083sGo1AXjFqPA0SXvsZiAh3FlEOOV0a0jJykuporIQ7ZcU1oJFzP0h3orRTm-45o3LKsavLiHaXDTsI-Mcvn99WAi6KO5JvPunBiCwpHKmaQlWGQYM6EZ2mGRsuXu5hNRjzebaIKXYNNrzhIKa8hK_o0roN3KxkXF1puyWtD-bNlC/https%3A%2F%2Fapi.protonmail.ch%2Fpks%2Flookup%3Fop%3Dget%26search%3Dmarkjacobs%40protonmail.com

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 10, 2020 12:17 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

> It's taken me until this morning, as this thread continues, to realize that
> maybe I don't know what Hercules does after all. "Mainframe emulation", I'd
> always heard, and supposed that meant that if I install Hercules on a PC
> I'll be able to write REXX execs, write and submit JCL, create PDSs and GDGs
> etc - in other words, that Hercules emulates MVS. But if it doesn't emulate
> the mainframe operating system, what ~does~ it do?
>
> -
>
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the
> evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands
> his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very
> good; a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense,
> really. You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are
> sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working
> properly; while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand
> the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk. Good
> people know about both good and evil; bad people do not know about either.
> -C S Lewis, Christian Behavior */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 06:34
>
> Don't confuse IBM's position on Hercules with IBM's position on running its
> licensed software on a platform for which it is not licensed.
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
> scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:55 PM
>
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.
>
> 
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: About the "hello world" program

[scott Ford]

Yep, a IVP

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:43 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Besides Bob's rationale, getting HelloWorld to compile & run also ensures
> that the infrastructure & environment you need is present and working.
>
> sas
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:11 PM Bob Bridges 
> wrote:
>
> > Just my opinion, but if you mean the hello-world program is maximally
> > trivial, fine.  But it does have its importance:  It demonstrates to
> every
> > new programming student or wannabe that HE CAN MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.
> That
> > first recognition can be pretty cool to watch.  It's also the first
> thing I
> > write when tackling a new language; when I can get my first program to
> > display "Hi, there!", I know I'm on the right track.
> >
> > I never sneer at that particular first step, however trivial it seems
> > later.
> >
> > ---
> > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> >
> > /* Another reason why creative individuals prefer to work at home, as
> > opposed to an office, is that when you need to scratch yourself, you
> don't
> > have to sneak behind the copying machine and settle for a hasty grope.
> At
> > home, you can rear back and assault the affected region with both hands,
> > or, if you want, gardening implements.  -Dave Barry */
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> > Behalf Of Robert Prins
> > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 15:40
> >
> > About the dumbest program ever.
> >
> > --- On 2020-04-09 18:04, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:
> >
> > >- any sort of "Hello world" program
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
>
> --
> sas
>
> --
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>
-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Google creates online unemployment application with state of New York (New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic)

[Mark Regan]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/google-creates-online-unemployment-application-with-state-of-new-york.html

or

*https://tinyurl.com/uvrud2p *

Regards,

Mark Regan

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Lionel B Dyck]

If you want to play with Hercules with something useful checkout the ZZSA 
tutorial package that you can find at https://www.cbttape.org thanks to our 
good friend Sam Golob:

File # 979 ZZSA Tutorial Package - complete setup to learn ZZSA

>From the README:

   Instructions for using the Practice ZZSA package 

Introduction:   

The purpose of this file is to provide an environment where you can 
practice using the ZZSA standalone recovery tool.   

ZZSA is a recovery tool that was written by Jan Jaeger, and has nothing 
to do with IBM.  ZZSA, however, can be used to read IBM disk packs which
were formatted for use by MVS or z/OS.  

ZZSA is IPL text.  That is, the IPL text of ZZSA is loaded onto a disk  
pack, and the disk pack is IPL-ed, standalone.  Other disk packs may be 
in the configuration that is IPL-ed, and ZZSA will find them, if you
run Option 0 first, as soon as you get into ZZSA.   

What is here, in this file? 

I have made a package consisting of a 5-cylinder data volume, formatted 
as a 3390 disk, containing ipl-text to IPL ZZSA, and also containing
a text pds, to practice on, so you can become familiar with using the   
ZZSA file editor, and with the other ZZSA functions.

I have added a load library as well, and a listing of the (unrelated)   
program called NODSI, which lends itself to a simple zap, in order to   
remove a restriction to its use.

The Packaging of this file. 

The package is a zipped file, (pds member PRACZZSA) which unzips to 
a directory on the PC.  For argument's sake, we shall call the  
directory praczzsa (Practice using ZZSA).  The directory contains a 
subdirectory which has a version of the Hercules emulator.  I am
calling this version of the emulator hyperion-40w.  It comes from   
www.softdevlabs.com.

Detailed instructions on how to use ZZSA may be found at the URL:   

http://www.cbttape.org/~jjaeger/zzsa.html   

or see member $$$#ZZSA in this pds. 

Now, to set up ZZSA on your PC using this package.  

1.  UNZIP the zip file into a directory that we'll call C:\praczzsa 
If it is not the c: drive, make the appropriate adjustments 
to the accompanying .bat (batch) files in the directory.

2.  Go to a command prompt screen if you are using Windows. 

3.  cd to the directory, and run the zzsa.bat batch file.  Edit it  
to point to the proper disk if necessary.  An original copy of  
the IPL disk for zzsa is shipped with the package.  Its name is 
cyl005O.  With the first execution of the zzsa.bat file, this   
pack is copied over to the working pack, whose name is cyl005.  
In addition, a backup pack cyl005B is created with the first
execution of zzsa.bat.  Upon subsequent execution of zzsa.bat,  
you have a choice if you want to use the pack cyl005B from last 
time, or you can overlay your working

Re: Why rip out COBOL when you can modernize key applications? - Weirdware

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 09:51:24 +0800, David Crayford wrote:

>As Martin previously mentioned some languages implement proper tail
>calls so they effectively turn recursion into iteration
>https://www.lua.org/pil/6.3.html.
> 
It better preserve the semantics of variable scope.

>This is a great optimization as recursion is often the most elegant
>method to implement many data structures and algorithms (quicksort,
>binary trees etc).
>
In some cases it avoids, or at least delays, stack overflow.  Remember
to put the long branch on the right.

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Charles Mills]

I have given this some more thought. I now think I would not mention Hercules, 
but not for the reasons you suspect. I would not mention it because when I was 
interviewing programmers I was looking for *accomplishments*, not products they 
had had a proximity to. So in an interview I might say

"I wrote a utility program that solves X which is a widespread problem."
"I wrote a set of Rexx scripts that make Y much more tractable."
"I kept my sysprog skills fresh by SMP/E-installing five products: X, Y, Z, ..."
"I taught myself RACF administration hands-on."

The interviewer might not follow up. But if he or she does ask "how did you do 
that after you left your last job three years ago?" I might answer "I have been 
fortunate to have had access to an MVS system all of that time."

Hercules itself is fundamentally irrelevant to the job you are applying for 
(unless the job is in a shop that runs Hercules or is considering it).

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 4/9/20 5:23 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never heard that 
> it is considered, or that IBM would like it to be considered, an 
> illegal counterfeit.  Is there any ethical reason for that viewpoint? 
> No, forget "ethical"; I guess I can make up my own mind about that 
> (and there'll never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~ 
> basis for the assertion?

My understanding is that the crux of the issue is the license for MVS 
(newer than 3.8j), OS/390, and z/OS.  In short, those OSs require IBM 
""hardware to legally run them.

Seeing as how Hercules is decidedly /not/ IBM ""hardware, running any of 
the aforementioned OSs means that you are doing so illegally.

At least that's my layman's understanding.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I say ""hardware, because IBM does have zPDT / RDz that is — as I 
understand it — a purely software solution with the caveat of a hardware 
license dongle.  But the mainframe hardware is completely emulated in 
software.

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Paul Gilmartin]

(BTW, system clock at prino.org seems 4 hours fast:
...
X-Atlas-Received: from 10.224.10.154 by atlas212.aol.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with 
http; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:40:27 +
...
Message-ID:  <518d0e42-90d0-029a-0012-2170fd1f6...@prino.org>
Newsgroups:   bit.listserv.ibm-main
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 19:40:08 +
... )
On 2020-04-10, at 13:40:08, Robert Prins wrote:
> 
> On 2020-04-09 18:04, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>> 
 
>> What do others know about Fan Dezhi, aka tn3270://efglobe.com?
>> o Is it safe?
> 
> Define "safe"
>  
Doesn't install malware.  Doesn't trigger DMCA, etc. enforcement.

>> o Prohibits use for:
>>   - Training
> 
> To prevent sh*tloads of clueless Indians screwing up.
> 
>>   - any sort of "Hello world" program
> 
> About the dumbest program ever.
>  
Gotta start small.

>>   - What does that leave?
> 
> PL/I, Cobol, keeping your skill (marginally) up-to-date, in case you want to 
> go to New Jersey?
> 
>>   - Is OMVS available?
> 
> Also dead.
> 
"dead" as functionally stabilized, or as unavailable.  I thought
TCP/IP nowadays practically requires OMVS.  I wonder what Rexx
ADDRESS SYSCALL ... does?

>> o One of the named principals appears to be a regular contributor to 
>> IBM-MAIN.
> 
> Who? Me? Only admin on the forum, and that just means kicking off the 
> spammers, and blocking large parts of the Internet from even accessing it. I 
> rarely log on to the system nowadays, given that I now have legal access to 
> an completely up-to-date system.

>> o Who pays for it?

> efglobe, whoever they are.
>  
"whoever" exactly.

Thanks,
gil

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Re: Why rip out COBOL when you can modernize key applications? - Weirdware

[scott Ford]

All,

Thats why it is important to understand how a language works. I was
mentoring a bunch until furloughed due to COVID-19, but i digress. I taught
understand the language and its underpinnings.

Scott

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 9:51 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> As Martin previously mentioned some languages implement proper tail
> calls so they effectively turn recursion into iteration
> https://www.lua.org/pil/6.3.html.
>
> This is a great optimization as recursion is often the most elegant
> method to implement many data structures and algorithms (quicksort,
> binary trees etc).
>
>
> On 2020-04-09 12:40 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
> > Yes, very verbose.
> > And yes, recursion is possible, but you must specify "IS RECURSIVE" on
> the PROGRAM-ID.  Not sure what having nested programs has to do with that,
> though.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of David Crayford 
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 7:44 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> > Subject: Re: Why rip out COBOL when you can modernize key applications?
> - Weirdware
> >
> > Wow, and some people criticize Java for being verbose!
> >
> > So using nested programs one can implement recursion in COBOL which you
> > couldn't do before without using a table stack.
> >
> > On 2020-04-08 5:14 AM, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
> >> Nested subroutines.
> >>
> >> Small example:
> >>
> >>ID DIVISION.
> >>PROGRAM-NAME. MAINPROG.
> >>[...]
> >>PROCEDURE DIVISION.
> >>CALL 'NESTED-PROGRAM-1'
> >>GOBACK.
> >>
> >>ID DIVISION.
> >>PROGRAM-ID. NESTED-PROGRAM-1.
> >>DATA DIVISION.
> >>WORKING-STORAGE SECTION.
> >>01  LOCAL-VAR-1 PIC X.
> >>[...]
> >>PROCEDURE DIVISION.
> >>DISPLAY 'IN NESTED-PROGRAM-1'
> >>GOBACK.
> >>
> >>END PROGRAM NESTED-PROGRAM-1.
> >>
> >>END PROGRAM MAINPROG.
> >>
> >> 
> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of David Spiegel 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 2:58 PM
> >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> >> Subject: Re: Why rip out COBOL when you can modernize key applications?
> - Weirdware
> >>
> >> Hi Frank,
> >> Thank you for that information.
> >> (All the COBOL I support(ed) didn't contain these and neither did my
> >> university courses in the '70s.)
> >>
> >> If I wanted to look them up, which keyword(s) would I use?
> >>
> >> Thanks and regards,
> >> David
> >>
> >> On 2020-04-07 15:49, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
> >>> Internal subroutines and local variables have been supported since
> COBOL 1985 (VS COBOL II era).
> >>> They're not ideal, but they do exist.
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on
> behalf of David Spiegel 
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 12:58 PM
> >>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> >>> Subject: Re: Why rip out COBOL when you can modernize key
> applications? - Weirdware
> >>>
> >>> How about no internal subroutines with local variables?
> >>>
> >>> On 2020-04-07 14:47, Bob Bridges wrote:
>  I used to bad-mouth COBOL, and I still prefer languages that are less
> wordy.  But I came somewhat reluctantly to see that it has its strengths.
> The one I think most important is that it encourages even novice
> programmers to organize their logic in what we used to call a "top-down"
> manner:  This paragraph accomplish a certain task by executing paragraphs
> one through three, then two more, and this subparagraph executes
> subsubparagraphs, and so on.  Forms good habits, I think.
> 
>  ---
>  Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
> 
>  /* My life is in the hands of any fool who can make me lose my
> temper.  -driving motto */
> 
>  -Original Message-
>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU]
> On Behalf Of scott Ford
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 12:55
> 
>  I learned Assembler first and then Cobol and then some PL/1.  I
> always felt each language had its strengths and weaknesses and all were
> like tools in a toolbox.
> 
>  --
>  For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>  send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO
> IBM-MAIN
>  .
> >>> --
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Re: About the "hello world" program

[Steve Smith]

Besides Bob's rationale, getting HelloWorld to compile & run also ensures
that the infrastructure & environment you need is present and working.

sas

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:11 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:

> Just my opinion, but if you mean the hello-world program is maximally
> trivial, fine.  But it does have its importance:  It demonstrates to every
> new programming student or wannabe that HE CAN MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.  That
> first recognition can be pretty cool to watch.  It's also the first thing I
> write when tackling a new language; when I can get my first program to
> display "Hi, there!", I know I'm on the right track.
>
> I never sneer at that particular first step, however trivial it seems
> later.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Another reason why creative individuals prefer to work at home, as
> opposed to an office, is that when you need to scratch yourself, you don't
> have to sneak behind the copying machine and settle for a hasty grope.  At
> home, you can rear back and assault the affected region with both hands,
> or, if you want, gardening implements.  -Dave Barry */
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Robert Prins
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 15:40
>
> About the dumbest program ever.
>
> --- On 2020-04-09 18:04, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> > On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:
>
> >- any sort of "Hello world" program
>
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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Richards, Robert B.]

Greg, 

My understanding matches yours to a tee.

Anecdotal comment: My wife picked up the CD I got from SHARE and installed 
Hercules. Next, she brought up the OS. Next, she got sarcastic and said, "they 
pay you to do this?". Needless to say, I did try for awhile to try and get her 
into systems programming but she resisted the temptation. ☹

Bob 

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Greg Price
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 12:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 2020-04-10 11:21 PM, Jackson, Rob wrote:
> The first time I ever encountered Hercules it was running z/OS 1.9 on an IBM 
> employee's IBM-owned laptop.

My understanding is that IBM generally considered IBM employees to be licensed 
to run IBM software in the course of their work for IBM. So, for example, an 
IBMer wishing to see if some licensable IBM software could run under Hercules 
by actually trying it out would not be subject to penalty from IBM - BUT if 
anyone who was not working for IBM tried it then it may well be a VERY 
different story.

Just my opinion...

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Mike Schwab]

Hercules emulates IBM S/370 and successor hardware.  You have to
install the operating system and software and data on top of it.

zCobol and zAsm emulates the hardware and operating system calls to
run user mode software. http://z390.sourceforge.net/zcobol/index.html

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 11:18 AM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> It's taken me until this morning, as this thread continues, to realize that
> maybe I don't know what Hercules does after all.  "Mainframe emulation", I'd
> always heard, and supposed that meant that if I install Hercules on a PC
> I'll be able to write REXX execs, write and submit JCL, create PDSs and GDGs
> etc - in other words, that Hercules emulates MVS.  But if it doesn't emulate
> the mainframe operating system, what ~does~ it do?
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the
> evil that is still left in him.  When a man is getting worse, he understands
> his own badness less and less.  A moderately bad man knows he is not very
> good; a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right.  This is common sense,
> really.  You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are
> sleeping.  You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working
> properly; while you are making them you cannot see them.  You can understand
> the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk.  Good
> people know about both good and evil; bad people do not know about either.
> -C S Lewis, _Christian Behavior_ */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 06:34
>
> Don't confuse IBM's position on Hercules with IBM's position on running its
> licensed software on a platform for which it is not licensed.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
> scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:55 PM
>
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Brandon Tucker]

> But if it doesn't emulate
the mainframe operating system, what ~does~ it do?

It emulates System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture systems. However, you would 
still need a properly licensed OS to run. Its exactly like VMware workstation, 
VirtualBox, or HyperV.

If you could "acquire" an image of z/OS, it will happily run on z/OS Hercules. 
IBM would definitely frown upon this, though.

-Brandon

Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy S10+.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Greg Price 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 12:23:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 2020-04-10 11:21 PM, Jackson, Rob wrote:
> The first time I ever encountered Hercules it was running z/OS 1.9 on an IBM 
> employee's IBM-owned laptop.

My understanding is that IBM generally considered IBM employees to be
licensed to run IBM software in the course of their work for IBM. So,
for example, an IBMer wishing to see if some licensable IBM software
could run under Hercules by actually trying it out would not be subject
to penalty from IBM - BUT if anyone who was not working for IBM tried it
then it may well be a VERY different story.

Just my opinion...

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: Upwards Compatibility of Code in Z series Boxes

[scott Ford]

Guys:

One thing I would like to point out because as a ISV we get this question a
lot. Our STC (Started Tasks) are in Cobol using HLASM called suboutines.
Customers as us about the very question you'all are asking, code we wrote
is Cobol V4 has been upward compatible since z/OS 1.6 .
The issues are usually new functions , etc. But we test the code against
the various versions of z/OS to confirm the code works correctly and of
course a
QA cycle for certification.

Scott

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 9:14 PM Mike Schwab  wrote:

> A vendor has to decide the minimum required hardware for his software.
> IBM chooses the minimum for the versions of z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE, z/TPF,
> and its other software.  Cobol 5 requires PDSEs ,etc.  A company might
> have to run on older hardware if they have a DR site with an older
> computer. 31 bit operating systems can run on processors up to z12.
> z13 won't run them.  S/370 virtual memory 24 bit address programs are
> still running without recompiling.
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:54 AM R.S. 
> wrote:
> >
> > W dniu 30.03.2020 o 00:40, Grant Steele pisze:
> > > Impressed with the depth on this list from the contributors.  I am
> getting back into the z-series software and application development after
> years of being in another domain.
> > >
> > > Here is a very broad question: when you guys/girls are moving your app
> portfolio from one hardware platform to another (say, z14 to z15), to what
> extend are the apps compatible with the new platform without recompilation?
> >
> > There are many answers, let me also do this:
> >
> > You said "Code". That could mean many different things, let's assume you
> > mean application code, written in COBOL or PL/I.
> > You also said "changing platform". Let's assume we talk about EC12 ->
> > z15, or z13 -> z15, or z14 -> z15, but not ES9000 to z15 or AS/400 to
> z15.
> > In that case YOU DON'T HAVE TO RECOMPILE the code. It will work.
> > However new compilers can give you better performance when you recompile
> > the code with parameter "platform=z15". Note: such code will no work on
> > older platform, but it will work on newer platform. The assumption is
> > simple: it is likely you will move from current machine to next model.
> > It is unlikely you will move back.
> >
> > --
> > Radoslaw Skorupka
> > Lodz, Poland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==
> >
> > Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości:
> >
> > - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!),
> > - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub
> zapisałeś na dysku).
> > Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może
> wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia
> (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania,
> narusza prawo i może podlegać karze.
> >
> > mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,
> www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy
> XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP:
> 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na
> 01.01.2020 r. wynosi 169.401.468 złotych.
> >
> > If you are not the addressee of this message:
> >
> > - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!),
> > - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you
> have printed out or saved).
> > This message may contain legally protected information, which may be
> used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who
> disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar
> action, violates the law and may be penalised.
> >
> > mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18,
> 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court
> for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National
> Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share
> capital amounting to PLN 169.401.468 as at 1 January 2020.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
> --
> Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
> Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?
>
> --
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>


-- 



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



www.idmworks.com

scott.f...@idmworks.com

Blog: www.idmworks.com/blog





*The information contained in this email message and any attachment may be
privileged, confidential, proprietary or otherwise protected from
disclosure

Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Mark Jacobs]

This may help answering your question.

http://www.hercules-390.eu/hercfaq.html#1.01

Mark Jacobs

Sent from ProtonMail, Swiss-based encrypted email.

GPG Public Key - 
https://api.protonmail.ch/pks/lookup?op=get&search=markjac...@protonmail.com

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 10, 2020 12:17 PM, Bob Bridges  wrote:

> It's taken me until this morning, as this thread continues, to realize that
> maybe I don't know what Hercules does after all. "Mainframe emulation", I'd
> always heard, and supposed that meant that if I install Hercules on a PC
> I'll be able to write REXX execs, write and submit JCL, create PDSs and GDGs
> etc - in other words, that Hercules emulates MVS. But if it doesn't emulate
> the mainframe operating system, what ~does~ it do?
>
> -
>
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the
> evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands
> his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very
> good; a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense,
> really. You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are
> sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working
> properly; while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand
> the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk. Good
> people know about both good and evil; bad people do not know about either.
> -C S Lewis, Christian Behavior */
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 06:34
>
> Don't confuse IBM's position on Hercules with IBM's position on running its
> licensed software on a platform for which it is not licensed.
>
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
> scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:55 PM
>
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.
>
> 
>
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Greg Price]

On 2020-04-10 11:21 PM, Jackson, Rob wrote:

The first time I ever encountered Hercules it was running z/OS 1.9 on an IBM 
employee's IBM-owned laptop.


My understanding is that IBM generally considered IBM employees to be 
licensed to run IBM software in the course of their work for IBM. So, 
for example, an IBMer wishing to see if some licensable IBM software 
could run under Hercules by actually trying it out would not be subject 
to penalty from IBM - BUT if anyone who was not working for IBM tried it 
then it may well be a VERY different story.


Just my opinion...

Cheers,
Greg

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Bob Bridges]

It's taken me until this morning, as this thread continues, to realize that
maybe I don't know what Hercules does after all.  "Mainframe emulation", I'd
always heard, and supposed that meant that if I install Hercules on a PC
I'll be able to write REXX execs, write and submit JCL, create PDSs and GDGs
etc - in other words, that Hercules emulates MVS.  But if it doesn't emulate
the mainframe operating system, what ~does~ it do?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the
evil that is still left in him.  When a man is getting worse, he understands
his own badness less and less.  A moderately bad man knows he is not very
good; a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right.  This is common sense,
really.  You understand sleep when you are awake, not while you are
sleeping.  You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working
properly; while you are making them you cannot see them.  You can understand
the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk.  Good
people know about both good and evil; bad people do not know about either.
-C S Lewis, _Christian Behavior_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 06:34

Don't confuse IBM's position on Hercules with IBM's position on running its
licensed software on a platform for which it is not licensed.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:55 PM

Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

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About the "hello world" program

[Bob Bridges]

Just my opinion, but if you mean the hello-world program is maximally trivial, 
fine.  But it does have its importance:  It demonstrates to every new 
programming student or wannabe that HE CAN MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN.  That first 
recognition can be pretty cool to watch.  It's also the first thing I write 
when tackling a new language; when I can get my first program to display "Hi, 
there!", I know I'm on the right track.

I never sneer at that particular first step, however trivial it seems later.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Another reason why creative individuals prefer to work at home, as opposed 
to an office, is that when you need to scratch yourself, you don't have to 
sneak behind the copying machine and settle for a hasty grope.  At home, you 
can rear back and assault the affected region with both hands, or, if you want, 
gardening implements.  -Dave Barry */


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Robert Prins
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 15:40

About the dumbest program ever.

--- On 2020-04-09 18:04, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:

>- any sort of "Hello world" program

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

> o "whois" traces it to Denver.

No. Domain Protection Services, Inc. is not the registrant, but an organization 
that forwards to anonymous contacts.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 2:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:

>Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.
>
>On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:08 PM Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>> On 4/8/20 1:13 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Brandon Tucker wrote:
>>
>> > I've always wondered if it was a good idea bringing up skills
>> > acquired by using z/OS Hercules with a copy of 1.10 floating on the
>> > internet?
>>
>> I think it's always pertinent to bring up skills that you acquired on a
>> mainframe that you had access to.
>>
>> I think I would elide, if not actively avoid, that it was illegally
>> using licensed IBM software on a non-IBM emulator.
>>
What do others know about Fan Dezhi, aka tn3270://efglobe.com?
o Is it safe?
o Reportedly running z/OS 1.6!?
o Prohibits use for:
  - Training
  - any sort of "Hello world" program
  - [commercial use?]
  - What does that leave?
  - Is OMVS available?
o One of the named principals appears to be a regular contributor to IBM-MAIN.
o "whois" traces it to Denver.
o Who pays for it?

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Robert Prins]

On 2020-04-09 18:04, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:


Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:08 PM Grant Taylor wrote:


On 4/8/20 1:13 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Brandon Tucker wrote:


I've always wondered if it was a good idea bringing up skills
acquired by using z/OS Hercules with a copy of 1.10 floating on the
internet?


I think it's always pertinent to bring up skills that you acquired on a
mainframe that you had access to.

I think I would elide, if not actively avoid, that it was illegally
using licensed IBM software on a non-IBM emulator.


What do others know about Fan Dezhi, aka tn3270://efglobe.com?
o Is it safe?


Define "safe"


o Reportedly running z/OS 1.6!?


Yes, and both CICS and Db2 have been out-of-action for years.


o Prohibits use for:
   - Training


To prevent sh*tloads of clueless Indians screwing up.


   - any sort of "Hello world" program


About the dumbest program ever.


   - [commercial use?]


Rent your time from IBM!


   - What does that leave?


PL/I, Cobol, keeping your skill (marginally) up-to-date, in case you want to go 
to New Jersey?



   - Is OMVS available?


Also dead.


o One of the named principals appears to be a regular contributor to IBM-MAIN.


Who? Me? Only admin on the forum, and that just means kicking off the spammers, 
and blocking large parts of the Internet from even accessing it. I rarely log on 
to the system nowadays, given that I now have legal access to an completely 
up-to-date system.



o "whois" traces it to Denver.


I thought it was Canada.


o Who pays for it?


efglobe, whoever they are.

Robert
--
Robert AH Prins
robert(a)prino(d)org
The hitchhiking grandfather - https://prino.neocities.org/indez.html
Some REXX code for use on z/OS - https://prino.neocities.org/zOS/zOS-Tools.html

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Re: The ancient computers in the Boeing 737 Max are holding up a fix

[scott Ford]

Nightwatch my father had a phrase , “buy cheap get cheap”

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:49 AM Nightwatch RenBand <
johnmattson...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Quick, Cheap, Good
> You may have any TWO... but almost never all three.
>
> --
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-- 
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

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Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

[Seymour J Metz]

A server is a detached virtual machine, typically running CMS or GCS.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Schuffenhauer, Mark [mschu...@tcfbank.com]
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 10:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

I think a lot of this was based on 'the mainframe is going away'.   Companies 
didn't invest in training for mainframe people to use modern mainframe because 
'the mainframe is going away.'  The years passed and the mainframe did not go 
away.

If the mainframe is going away and not the system of record, why do we run our 
legal and audit against it?

It was hard to suggestion a mainframe/not mainframe hybrid solution when people 
just wanted not mainframe.  zSystem or zSeries server, just didn't catch on 
over the M word.

There was a conversation about virtual servers and when people worked on them.  
 I was thinking late 80's for me, MVS and DOS/VSE hosts under VM.   That made 
things quiet.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 6:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

CAUTION: External Email


There have been collaborative projects on the CBT tape and various Share mods 
tapes for ages, with people shipping yapes before the universal access to the 
Internet. The people on some of those projects kept change logs in the comments.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Gord Tomlin 
wrote:

> On 2020-04-09 07:05, John McKown wrote:
> >> If your objective is to do something interesting and
> >> mind-stimulating in your newly enlarged spare time, then there are
> >> massive number of open source projects you could contribute to.
> >> There's a very good chance that some such projects line up well with your 
> >> outside interests.
> >>
> > Ain't none of z/OS, unfortunately. At least as far as I know.
> >
> CBT? Zowe? Zigi?
>

CBT is sort of open source. Well, it is open source. But when I think of open 
source, I think of collaborative projects like I see on Github. I can download 
a CBT file and modify it, then send my updated source to Sam for inclusion. But 
there isn't the history like a Github project.

I'll look at Zowe and Zigi. This is the first I've heard of them.

To me, the biggest problem for z/OpenSource {grin} is the lack of an affordable 
platform for developers. The z/OS license fees for something like a zPDT are 
way beyond my ability to pay. And even if I had the money, IBM won't license to 
just anyone. IIRC, you must be a Business Partner or soe such thing.

The above is why what little I do anymore is Linux on Intel.



>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support:
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1TwnxefNmnDylQHIPpJW54jxC8WAofasUjQpN25i2
> HL8jFKZTq_OzS87OGnM2UMQIcZc7-rEQp9sEtTMTtlaQjGZOZvzWRHsdK-06ZEt2z2-lk_
> CvyUevZr2CTWCTISXTAtPOGMuwkvkNE5fZl70Usqhu2POd4SZ8tXSY0GEacwbisnklqAeI
> pzfK0D3vGxDE9Yz-4XYS1ATVCLzf8aadG_YzSHpJNalTEeLMsyFVn5h-di1_hCiak2W7tL
> 3Wp71VOncIHOfZnAnBH4zvysrA-syZ0bNJpTPxpCB4tSV8D8gjmvTybcTq75ADwxgnNW_D
> ApHXmgGquHQc4xuH9rq0XSv5HmDv3YzXaQpo38PH5UJARYSOs24cb_NC8m9p1esQKuMVYJ
> kqBJHuOfk3MieYmbzAB6nX0LJIjQ-Acx0BE7yQtomM51SD30OObdzYIhL6/https%3A%2F
> %2Factionsoftware.com%2Fsupport%2F
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: The ancient computers in the Boeing 737 Max are holding up a fix

[Nightwatch RenBand]

Quick, Cheap, Good
You may have any TWO... but almost never all three.

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Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

[Schuffenhauer, Mark]

I think a lot of this was based on 'the mainframe is going away'.   Companies 
didn't invest in training for mainframe people to use modern mainframe because 
'the mainframe is going away.'  The years passed and the mainframe did not go 
away.

If the mainframe is going away and not the system of record, why do we run our 
legal and audit against it?

It was hard to suggestion a mainframe/not mainframe hybrid solution when people 
just wanted not mainframe.  zSystem or zSeries server, just didn't catch on 
over the M word.

There was a conversation about virtual servers and when people worked on them.  
 I was thinking late 80's for me, MVS and DOS/VSE hosts under VM.   That made 
things quiet.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 6:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

CAUTION: External Email


There have been collaborative projects on the CBT tape and various Share mods 
tapes for ages, with people shipping yapes before the universal access to the 
Internet. The people on some of those projects kept change logs in the comments.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Gord Tomlin 
wrote:

> On 2020-04-09 07:05, John McKown wrote:
> >> If your objective is to do something interesting and
> >> mind-stimulating in your newly enlarged spare time, then there are
> >> massive number of open source projects you could contribute to.
> >> There's a very good chance that some such projects line up well with your 
> >> outside interests.
> >>
> > Ain't none of z/OS, unfortunately. At least as far as I know.
> >
> CBT? Zowe? Zigi?
>

CBT is sort of open source. Well, it is open source. But when I think of open 
source, I think of collaborative projects like I see on Github. I can download 
a CBT file and modify it, then send my updated source to Sam for inclusion. But 
there isn't the history like a Github project.

I'll look at Zowe and Zigi. This is the first I've heard of them.

To me, the biggest problem for z/OpenSource {grin} is the lack of an affordable 
platform for developers. The z/OS license fees for something like a zPDT are 
way beyond my ability to pay. And even if I had the money, IBM won't license to 
just anyone. IIRC, you must be a Business Partner or soe such thing.

The above is why what little I do anymore is Linux on Intel.



>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support:
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1TwnxefNmnDylQHIPpJW54jxC8WAofasUjQpN25i2
> HL8jFKZTq_OzS87OGnM2UMQIcZc7-rEQp9sEtTMTtlaQjGZOZvzWRHsdK-06ZEt2z2-lk_
> CvyUevZr2CTWCTISXTAtPOGMuwkvkNE5fZl70Usqhu2POd4SZ8tXSY0GEacwbisnklqAeI
> pzfK0D3vGxDE9Yz-4XYS1ATVCLzf8aadG_YzSHpJNalTEeLMsyFVn5h-di1_hCiak2W7tL
> 3Wp71VOncIHOfZnAnBH4zvysrA-syZ0bNJpTPxpCB4tSV8D8gjmvTybcTq75ADwxgnNW_D
> ApHXmgGquHQc4xuH9rq0XSv5HmDv3YzXaQpo38PH5UJARYSOs24cb_NC8m9p1esQKuMVYJ
> kqBJHuOfk3MieYmbzAB6nX0LJIjQ-Acx0BE7yQtomM51SD30OObdzYIhL6/https%3A%2F
> %2Factionsoftware.com%2Fsupport%2F
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[John Baker]

I recall a tool from the early 1970s that could take a program and change all 
of the variables to combinations of "I", "O", "0", and "1".

The "real source code" was kept on punched cards in a vault, and the "encrypted 
source code" was kept online.

It was believed that a thief would find the "encrypted source code" to be 
useless.

I don't know if that belief was ever put to the test.

John P. Baker

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 9:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:56 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: 
>
>Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
>whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
>readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!
> 
Leads me to think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%42%72%61%69%6e%66%75%63%6b

-- gil

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:56 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote: 
>
>Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
>whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
>readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!
> 
Leads me to think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%42%72%61%69%6e%66%75%63%6b

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Jackson, Rob]

The first time I ever encountered Hercules it was running z/OS 1.9 on an IBM 
employee's IBM-owned laptop.  Do as I say, not as I do, I suppose.

First Horizon Bank
Mainframe Technical Support

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

The issue is not whether IBM sanctions Hercules; in fact, IBM employees were 
involved in developing Hercules. Thw iaauw ia that it is illegal to run 
licensed software on Hercules without a license giving you the right to do so.

Note that even if IBM does decide to license, e.g., z/OS, for use on Hercules, 
the price may be more than you are willing to pay.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 4/9/20 10:55 AM, scott Ford wrote:
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

In my opinion, IBM will never sanction Hercules.

I think that mentioning Hercules in the specific context of MVS 3.8j or
S/390 Linux or other free / non-licensed OSs is probably okay.

Doing so in a way that shows that you understand and respect the licensing 
situation is probably a good thing.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

[Seymour J Metz]

There have been collaborative projects on the CBT tape and various Share mods 
tapes for ages, with people shipping yapes before the universal access to the 
Internet. The people on some of those projects kept change logs in the comments.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
John McKown [john.archie.mck...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Gord Tomlin 
wrote:

> On 2020-04-09 07:05, John McKown wrote:
> >> If your objective is to do something interesting and mind-stimulating in
> >> your newly enlarged spare time, then there are massive number of open
> >> source projects you could contribute to. There's a very good chance that
> >> some such projects line up well with your outside interests.
> >>
> > Ain't none of z/OS, unfortunately. At least as far as I know.
> >
> CBT? Zowe? Zigi?
>

CBT is sort of open source. Well, it is open source. But when I think of
open source, I think of collaborative projects like I see on Github. I can
download a CBT file and modify it, then send my updated source to Sam for
inclusion. But there isn't the history like a Github project.

I'll look at Zowe and Zigi. This is the first I've heard of them.

To me, the biggest problem for z/OpenSource {grin} is the lack of an
affordable platform for developers. The z/OS license fees for something
like a zPDT are way beyond my ability to pay. And even if I had the money,
IBM won't license to just anyone. IIRC, you must be a Business Partner or
soe such thing.

The above is why what little I do anymore is Linux on Intel.



>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support: 
> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1TwnxefNmnDylQHIPpJW54jxC8WAofasUjQpN25i2HL8jFKZTq_OzS87OGnM2UMQIcZc7-rEQp9sEtTMTtlaQjGZOZvzWRHsdK-06ZEt2z2-lk_CvyUevZr2CTWCTISXTAtPOGMuwkvkNE5fZl70Usqhu2POd4SZ8tXSY0GEacwbisnklqAeIpzfK0D3vGxDE9Yz-4XYS1ATVCLzf8aadG_YzSHpJNalTEeLMsyFVn5h-di1_hCiak2W7tL3Wp71VOncIHOfZnAnBH4zvysrA-syZ0bNJpTPxpCB4tSV8D8gjmvTybcTq75ADwxgnNW_DApHXmgGquHQc4xuH9rq0XSv5HmDv3YzXaQpo38PH5UJARYSOs24cb_NC8m9p1esQKuMVYJkqBJHuOfk3MieYmbzAB6nX0LJIjQ-Acx0BE7yQtomM51SD30OObdzYIhL6/https%3A%2F%2Factionsoftware.com%2Fsupport%2F
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>


--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

[Seymour J Metz]

Does IBM document which ISPF panels translate to UC?

> But I'd gp to a different extreme: keywords should be case-insensitive;
> this can be done in the table search routine.  

That would be a real problem for, e.g., Unix commands, where the same letter 
can mean different things depending on the case.

> I have always commented my JCL in mixed case.  That practice
> infuriates some colleagues who drop into ISPF Edit and find CAPS OFF.

You need a better grade of colleagues. 


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 07:02:26 -0500, John McKown wrote:
>
>So, I kind of wish that the JCL converter or interpreter would accept JCL
>in lower case. In particular, upper casing the JCL statements which are not
>inclosed in ticks. It would just make my life easier. I.E JCL should ignore
>case when not in ticks.
>
Ditto TSO commands typed on the ISPF primary panel.  It's absurd that
tso allocate path('/dev/null')

results in:
PATH /DEV/NULL NOT IN CATALOG OR CATALOG CAN NOT BE ACCESSED.

(BTW, was there really a catalog search attempted?)

But I'd gp to a different extreme: keywords should be case-insensitive;
this can be done in the table search routine.  *Everything* else should
be taken as typed.

And symbol substitution should be performed everywhere, not merely
in the handful of cases enumerated in the JCL Ref.

I have always commented my JCL in mixed case.  That practice
infuriates some colleagues who drop into ISPF Edit and find CAPS OFF.

-- gil

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Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

[Seymour J Metz]

Can you say "race to the bottom"?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Christopher Y. Blaicher [cblaic...@syncsort.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 11:06 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

To me there is a difference between 'shortage of talent' and independent (open) 
development.  IBM would be well served to make development platforms available, 
but that is not what I want to discuss.

I think the shortage of talent is because no company wants to invest in talent 
development for z/OS.  They want high schools and colleges to send them 
talented people.  I.E. the student pays for the education, not the company.

z/OS is just another operating system, just like UNIX or Windows, just far more 
robust.  When you started using scripts, you had to learn it.  JCL is no 
different, you have to learn it.  Yes, it is different, but then again scripts 
were different for me coming from a long history of IBM operating systems.

No, I find the lack of educated talent is a corporate problem, not a talent 
problem.  The corporations are just too cheap to make the investment.  Let 
students pay the thousands of dollars.

Chris Blaicher
Technical Architect
Syncsort, Inc.


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Edgington, Jerry
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:09 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

[ External - This message originated Externally.  Use proper judgement and 
caution with attachments, links, or responses. ]

Just a response to this comment, and I agree.  " To me, the biggest problem for 
z/OpenSource {grin} is the lack of an affordable platform for developers."

I have been developing an "open source" project for z/OS. So, I have run into 
this many times, and it not just the hardware and z/OS, but other subsystems, 
like DB2, IMS, CICS, and various other components, like DBB, z/OS Connect, etc. 
 That is one of the biggest road blocks in this effort.  However, working with 
the Open Mainframe Project, they are making these types of z/OS environment 
available.  My "open source" project has been accepted to OMP and we are 
working getting the environment setup to continue developing the Polycephaly 
project, under OMP.

My wish is, to have more of these type environments setup.
Jerry

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
John McKown
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: regarding the 'shortage of mainframe talent'

This message was sent from an external source outside of Western & Southern's 
network. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender 
and know the contents are safe.


On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 8:21 AM Gord Tomlin 
wrote:

> On 2020-04-09 07:05, John McKown wrote:
> >> If your objective is to do something interesting and
> >> mind-stimulating in your newly enlarged spare time, then there are
> >> massive number of open source projects you could contribute to.
> >> There's a very good chance that some such projects line up well with your 
> >> outside interests.
> >>
> > Ain't none of z/OS, unfortunately. At least as far as I know.
> >
> CBT? Zowe? Zigi?
>

CBT is sort of open source. Well, it is open source. But when I think of open 
source, I think of collaborative projects like I see on Github. I can download 
a CBT file and modify it, then send my updated source to Sam for inclusion. But 
there isn't the history like a Github project.

I'll look at Zowe and Zigi. This is the first I've heard of them.

To me, the biggest problem for z/OpenSource {grin} is the lack of an affordable 
platform for developers. The z/OS license fees for something like a zPDT are 
way beyond my ability to pay. And even if I had the money, IBM won't license to 
just anyone. IIRC, you must be a Business Partner or soe such thing.

The above is why what little I do anymore is Linux on Intel.



>
> --
>
> Regards, Gord Tomlin
> Action Software International
> (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation)
> Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507
> Support:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://actionsoftware.com/support/__;!!I6
> -MEfEZPA!bMeJNdKw0OIcQopRn3h4AJBFlBxtVXy2yeQQiDsecTNb4GYPR5KQeJ1TvOve9
> uvw9Q$
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

---

Re: [External] Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

[Seymour J Metz]

That's what i call a "Molly Malone":

She died of a favor
From which none could save her
And that was the end of sweet Molly Malone

Were there any witnesses when you killed him?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:24:24 +, Pommier, Rex wrote:

>ISPF edit session line commands to convert the line or block of lines to 
>uppercase.
>
Ah!  Thanks.  Not in my repertoire.  I'm accustomed to typing
what I mean and shunning any system overrides.

"Line"?  I say "prefix".  Or am I contaminated by XEDIT jargon.

Once I was having trouble with an EXEC2 (IIRC).  I asked our BOFH for
help (small department).  He leaned over my shoulder; added a command;
SAVEd; and tested.  Failed because I ran XEDIT with CASE Mixed.  He
quickly XEDITed again; UPPER *; SAVE.  I was furious; complained to
our manager; perhaps asked for recovery from backup.

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

Don't confuse IBM's position on Hercules with IBM's position on running its 
licensed software on a platform for which it is not licensed.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
scott Ford [idfli...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:08 PM Grant Taylor <
023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> On 4/8/20 1:13 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Brandon Tucker wrote:
> > Greetings!
>
> Hello,
>
> > I've always wondered if it was a good idea bringing up skills
> > acquired by using z/OS Hercules with a copy of 1.10 floating on the
> > internet?
>
> I think it's always pertinent to bring up skills that you acquired on a
> mainframe that you had access to.
>
> I think I would elide, if not actively avoid, that it was illegally
> using licensed IBM software on a non-IBM emulator.
>
> > Has anyone heard of someone doing this during an interview? Or what
> > would you do/think if someone did this?
>
> With things like Master the Mainframe and hobbyists running their own
> machines, it's not outside of the realm of possibility for people to
> have access to a mainframe to learn.  It does take effort.  But it is
> possible.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> :-)
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


--



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



http://secure-web.cisco.com/12Gtu7POe3tNUSi-hhm62v5_9IPf7htHUV3pWOCFG6PBJ5cqSMZ43weSUIp-UYOnVmQimygOhy9-ZYdiokSgv3FGH8bcOkhKPcaiTHA2HjPqeiUlaEyjtIEQNIk0yDvzzKMeWFQHZl5kKngouKS9kXcfqw7MT33AQMgGOYfvBYZSIDTm_rANy5kXqBAXzBqEve4ylxE0PhDbKAehaWENayLiVr2XtngAX_wrujA2VOS_FlpPYoc0vPQH7cnP8C-Ik6t-QrkaOXorSwXIZmFvJOK-jobBFYir0rZQxCCQ3OF-22aPL3xfL-CTTfekbNER-U4D-bg1kd5hZtLwofPOjkTzUXJVJWsxYc2b9vAf4680uTfAyCfL-FgIHx7P5IfwTApfm_4ybnjiyt5EPl8W9StWS5vsqW0WJTpGn3utRLSmw1PTEy5KBXQeqK6GFz6uq/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.idmworks.com

scott.f...@idmworks.com

Blog: 
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1_4RjLc_cNxh1fKO0HQUwu1HqO2AU7sJ4MO0ZbOy0BRs_NB26GA--Bte6xIdxFXv33KLTf04WGarzKtcWCkJFkG9Dr3YhhmYQO7kEhU40S2WFOuak8tVzTtGJyiEjt9EG8GQEMcFVq9J_q9HzazStoOqnZzLw75_zs1MyOGfPaY4duiPIr1O6uJBp3w43ayWjLkluMK3mhlhSCNXQS3YLlhyvmHzCO3IdMSXrAq3lIW6jgjkhHzlk7QgFrb8ARJSWi-MVmTahBvI5uKwJ9BeMxu9Ql0FskUIU39yLmYqQLiLYfZJ7pZGOiT2Ziy1D4aTsHWkmWYXtXPRiSTgowEKTQ6uigNtzDTPu8qqiJfTnjCtmh-QJQvnBhf_wux2hsT7M_6vzcvi3_DnpnJitCtLySGwY1cXIKwJXW9TgjRgVcpvyq2YtxXemgRn1K5Nhrq_U/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.idmworks.com%2Fblog





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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

IBM employees were involved in the Hercules project and used it internally. 
What they were allowed to run on it is beyond my pay grade.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Richards, Robert B. [01c91f408b9e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 6:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

Didn't IBM, at one time, allow IBMers to use Hercules? Has that changed?

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

It would be legal to run, e.g., Debian, OpenSolaris, under Hercules. It would 
be legal to run a licensed copy of, e.g., SLES, under Hercules. The bone of 
contention is that IBM doesn't offer licenses to run, e.g., z/OS, under 
Hercules.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Arthur [ibmmain.10.ats...@xoxy.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 8:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 9 Apr 2020 16:23:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:<026c01d60ec5$da038be0$8e0aa3a0$@gmail.com>)
robhbrid...@gmail.com (Bob Bridges) wrote:

>This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never heard that it
>is considered, or that IBM would like it to be considered, an illegal
>counterfeit.  Is there any ethical reason for that viewpoint?  No,
>forget "ethical"; I guess I can make up my own mind about that (and
>there'll never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~ basis for
>the assertion?

My understanding is that Hercules is perfectly legal and ethical. However, 
running an unlicensed, copyright operating system (such as z/OS) is quite a 
different story.
So, as people said, running MVS 3.8 under Hercules is fine, but any later OS is 
problematic.

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Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

[Seymour J Metz]

> Need the "do what I meant" feature implemented in ISPF edit.

Be careful that you don't wind up with "Do what you thought I meant instead of 
what I asked for.", which is what everybody claiming "DWIM" actually delivers.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Charles Mills [charl...@mcn.org]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

ISPF edit line commands.

UC converts the given line to upper case.
UCC ... UCC converts the indicated range of lines to upper case.

The one place where it fails (fails me, it's working as designed) is if I were 
to type for example

//sysprint dd sysout=*the blah blah report

UC converts it to

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*THE BLAH BLAH REPORT

When what I would like is

//SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=*the blah blah report

Need the "do what I meant" feature implemented in ISPF edit.

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:01 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: JCL & UNIX coding.

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 08:33:50 -0700, Charles Mills wrote:

>I agree totally but FWIW I find that the line commands UC and UCC/UCC go a 
>long way toward making the process tolerable.
>
Context?  ISPF Primary panel?  TSO READY prompt?  JCL?  OMVS?  Other (specify)?

(No habla UCC.)
I remember terminals with not CAPS LOCK but SHIFT LOCK, sometimes
a mechanical latch on the SHIFT key.

>-Original Message-
>From: John McKown
>Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:02 AM
>
>I like to use UNIX facilities. Especially some scripting languages, such as
>awk. I use Co:Z instead of BPXBATCH. Anyway, sine UNIX is case sensitive,
>my "embedded" scripts must be in lower case. I don't want to keep my
>scripts in another file. So my JCL member has embedded lower case. Which
>makes editing the actual JCL a mess if I forget to use CAPS LOCK while
>editing the JCL portion.
>
>So, I kind of wish that the JCL converter or interpreter would accept JCL
>in lower case. In particular, upper casing the JCL statements which are not
>inclosed in ticks. It would just make my life easier. I.E JCL should ignore
>case when not in ticks.

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Richards, Robert B.]

Didn't IBM, at one time, allow IBMers to use Hercules? Has that changed?

Bob

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:19 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

It would be legal to run, e.g., Debian, OpenSolaris, under Hercules. It would 
be legal to run a licensed copy of, e.g., SLES, under Hercules. The bone of 
contention is that IBM doesn't offer licenses to run, e.g., z/OS, under 
Hercules.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Arthur [ibmmain.10.ats...@xoxy.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 8:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 9 Apr 2020 16:23:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:<026c01d60ec5$da038be0$8e0aa3a0$@gmail.com>)
robhbrid...@gmail.com (Bob Bridges) wrote:

>This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never heard that it 
>is considered, or that IBM would like it to be considered, an illegal 
>counterfeit.  Is there any ethical reason for that viewpoint?  No, 
>forget "ethical"; I guess I can make up my own mind about that (and 
>there'll never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~ basis for 
>the assertion?

My understanding is that Hercules is perfectly legal and ethical. However, 
running an unlicensed, copyright operating system (such as z/OS) is quite a 
different story.
So, as people said, running MVS 3.8 under Hercules is fine, but any later OS is 
problematic.

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Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach 
elsewhere. Richard Feynman, for instance, was on a sabbatical teaching in 
Brazil when he learned to play the frigideira.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus 
Pandemic

Tony Thigpen wrote:

>Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program

>in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the

>variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.



When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at a 
time when I was a kid-he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to wonder how 
that worked, since he was a full professor at a university; perhaps leave, 
perhaps sabbatical??), he came across a PL/I compiler that had been translated 
into Spanish-that is, the language keywords were Spanish! He was sort of 
impressed at the effort, but could also see the inherent problems it 
represented with support etc.



Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables 
whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for 
readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!


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CIVIL and COBOL in NJ

[Mike Kerford-Byrnes]

I think zMan has it right.  CIVIL  derived from COBOL, if you your
typing technique is partially shifted left 

  I = <

Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

The domain efglobe.com is registered anonymously; that makes me nervous. OTOH, 
their web site looks legitimate.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 2:04 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:55:11 -0400, scott Ford wrote:

>Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.
>
>On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 4:08 PM Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>> On 4/8/20 1:13 PM, SUBSCRIBE IBM-MAIN Brandon Tucker wrote:
>>
>> > I've always wondered if it was a good idea bringing up skills
>> > acquired by using z/OS Hercules with a copy of 1.10 floating on the
>> > internet?
>>
>> I think it's always pertinent to bring up skills that you acquired on a
>> mainframe that you had access to.
>>
>> I think I would elide, if not actively avoid, that it was illegally
>> using licensed IBM software on a non-IBM emulator.
>>
What do others know about Fan Dezhi, aka tn3270://efglobe.com?
o Is it safe?
o Reportedly running z/OS 1.6!?
o Prohibits use for:
  - Training
  - any sort of "Hello world" program
  - [commercial use?]
  - What does that leave?
  - Is OMVS available?
o One of the named principals appears to be a regular contributor to IBM-MAIN.
o "whois" traces it to Denver.
o Who pays for it?

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

The issue is not whether IBM sanctions Hercules; in fact, IBM employees were 
involved in developing Hercules. Thw iaauw ia that it is illegal to run 
licensed software on Hercules without a license giving you the right to do so.

Note that even if IBM does decide to license, e.g., z/OS, for use on Hercules, 
the price may be more than you are willing to pay.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 4/9/20 10:55 AM, scott Ford wrote:
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

In my opinion, IBM will never sanction Hercules.

I think that mentioning Hercules in the specific context of MVS 3.8j or
S/390 Linux or other free / non-licensed OSs is probably okay.

Doing so in a way that shows that you understand and respect the
licensing situation is probably a good thing.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

There is no ethical or legal reason to consider Hercules an illegal 
counterfeit, nor has IBM made such a claim. The legal issue is running licensed 
software without paying for an applicable license. Unless IBM gives you a 
license to run, e.g., z/OS, on Hercules then there is no legal way to do it.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 7:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never heard that it is 
considered, or that IBM would like it to be considered, an illegal counterfeit. 
 Is there any ethical reason for that viewpoint?  No, forget "ethical"; I guess 
I can make up my own mind about that (and there'll never be a consensus on it). 
 Is there any ~legal~ basis for the assertion?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many bad 
measures.  -Daniel Webster */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Grant Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 15:02

In my opinion, IBM will never sanction Hercules.

I think that mentioning Hercules in the specific context of MVS 3.8j or
S/390 Linux or other free / non-licensed OSs is probably okay.

Doing so in a way that shows that you understand and respect the
licensing situation is probably a good thing.

--- On 4/9/20 10:55 AM, scott Ford wrote:
> Until Hercules is sanctioned by IBM I wouldnt mentioned it.

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

It would be legal to run, e.g., Debian, OpenSolaris, under Hercules. It would 
be legal to run a licensed copy of, e.g., SLES, under Hercules. The bone of 
contention is that IBM doesn't offer licenses to run, e.g., z/OS, under 
Hercules.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Arthur [ibmmain.10.ats...@xoxy.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 8:08 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

On 9 Apr 2020 16:23:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
(Message-ID:<026c01d60ec5$da038be0$8e0aa3a0$@gmail.com>)
robhbrid...@gmail.com (Bob Bridges) wrote:

>This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never
>heard that it is considered, or that IBM would like it to
>be considered, an illegal counterfeit.  Is there any
>ethical reason for that viewpoint?  No, forget "ethical";
>I guess I can make up my own mind about that (and there'll
>never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~ basis
>for the assertion?

My understanding is that Hercules is perfectly legal and
ethical. However, running an unlicensed, copyright
operating system (such as z/OS) is quite a different story.
So, as people said, running MVS 3.8 under Hercules is fine,
but any later OS is problematic.

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Seymour J Metz]

Linux is open source. If you buy a Linux distribution, you are legally entitled 
to give Linux, or any other FOSS to anybody that you want. The catch is that 
the distribution may include proprietary software and may be proprietary even 
if the individual components are not.- Even when you are permitted to 
redistribute a distribution as a whole, the copies would not be covered by any 
service bundled with the original.

In particular, RHEL and SLES are proprietary distributions whose prime 
attractions are the support; strip out the proprietary pieces and put together 
your own distribution and you get something unsupported as a unit, althogh 
there may be support channels for some individual components.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Wayne Bickerdike [wayn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 9:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

It's legal to run z enabled Linux on Hercules. Not sure what you would
achieve over just running Linux on Wintel but interesting in that you may
then have marketable skills for a real z shop.

You can run mainframe Linuxes without fear of the license police. RHEL and
SLES are battle-hardened supported commercial editions. Of course there are
also free-of-cost mainframe Linuxes:

   - Fedora s390x 
   - Debian s390 

   - Gentoo 

   - Centos 
,
 using RHEL instructions
   

   - openSUSE 



On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 10:09 AM Arthur  wrote:

> On 9 Apr 2020 16:23:35 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main
> (Message-ID:<026c01d60ec5$da038be0$8e0aa3a0$@gmail.com>)
> robhbrid...@gmail.com (Bob Bridges) wrote:
>
> >This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never
> >heard that it is considered, or that IBM would like it to
> >be considered, an illegal counterfeit.  Is there any
> >ethical reason for that viewpoint?  No, forget "ethical";
> >I guess I can make up my own mind about that (and there'll
> >never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~ basis
> >for the assertion?
>
> M

Re: The ancient computers in the Boeing 737 Max are holding up a fix

[Seymour J Metz]

I'd say that the issue is not trying to solve hardware problems with software; 
the problem is cutting corners on software and training.

Of course, the reference to single-bit errors was unnerving; is there any 
excuse for a flight control computer that doesn't have ECC?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 11:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: The ancient computers in the Boeing 737 Max are holding up a fix

Not an IBM mainframe this time.

https://secure-web.cisco.com/155tdr-tzfwwW43Kkk4e8TtwmsrHe_L5ngDKCsa1vYip1u7ED-wHfm4Km99TEIOLy3de2euOaSuS1mAC48J_mxRNrB7PRY5ikkb6V8TTfcNErBVi7FWuJ8mNZs2vst9szPkuq1-jWZxR864pHKemcAd2E-Kk-0xny1JpT1kR03Aop4vs-seGG6DqbfsWdIV80Jdd3WI8g-80PcjaTAeCGvI26XwUQySq4qO-BKWRJSiYGELjMcfziJMkZeT7NFcAu8EZ86dGGNaEW4VJRwWDgpTtDGmzTzkoPm446wma7dft2YzvfgrTctYckubp57w4KEe3PbjWnrsfiKqVeGmBJ5rYAlmC-EcJRd48nhmtYDw-3gFP6vtTg-EhF6IwqPojBuFhfiVpPGKKeFsT0CIQjebD_KZRSKxbVePQ5ZLo6uicjtS_a2rzpQcFptY2U_fpgddFIG9dTrZ7-lQID1l6XVg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2020%2F4%2F9%2F21197162%2Fboeing-737-max-software-hardware-computer-fcc-crash

The perils of fixing a hardware problem with software

(lotsa ads)

-- gil

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Re: Bringing up skills learned on z/OS Hercules in interview?

[Mike Schwab]

Here is a thread about Year 2000 IBM 370/390/ESA and future z
emulators.  FSI had been selling 390/ESA emulators through IBM, but
would not get a license to emulate z processors.
https://tech-insider.org/mainframes/research/2001/0308.html

PSI was trying to sell Itaniums running an emulator to run IBM Z
operating systems.  Lawsuits were filed and settled by IBM buying PSI.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/02/ibm_buys_psi/

Then Neon was selling zPrime to run DB2 on zAAPs, lost the lawsuit by
the judge ruling IBM's contract controlled what could run on zAAPs,
and was bought out by IBM.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/01/ibm_prevails_over_neon_zprime/

Then Turbo Hercules was set up to sell x86 rack mounted servers with
an high speed assembler to run z systems for Test and Disaster
Recovery.  They shut down when the court ruled the contract covered
what processors could run what software (Neon zPrime) and the EU
dropped their investigation about tying IBM Z software to IBM z
processors.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(emulator)#TurboHercules

On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:28 AM Grant Taylor
<023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> On 4/9/20 5:23 PM, Bob Bridges wrote:
> > This is new to me.  I've heard of Hercules, but I never heard that
> > it is considered, or that IBM would like it to be considered, an
> > illegal counterfeit.  Is there any ethical reason for that viewpoint?
> > No, forget "ethical"; I guess I can make up my own mind about that
> > (and there'll never be a consensus on it).  Is there any ~legal~
> > basis for the assertion?
>
> My understanding is that the crux of the issue is the license for MVS
> (newer than 3.8j), OS/390, and z/OS.  In short, those OSs require IBM
> ""hardware to legally run them.
>
> Seeing as how Hercules is decidedly /not/ IBM ""hardware, running any of
> the aforementioned OSs means that you are doing so illegally.
>
> At least that's my layman's understanding.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> I say ""hardware, because IBM does have zPDT / RDz that is — as I
> understand it — a purely software solution with the caveat of a hardware
> license dongle.  But the mainframe hardware is completely emulated in
> software.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: About the leap second and coding

[Mike Schwab]

We abandond the sun?  You did that when you changed from Solar Time to
Time zones.  And again with Daylight Savings Time..  And I looked up
the change in time on Wikipedia, and calculated a year gets 1 second
longer every 150 years or so, so in 2200 we would have a leap second
every year, in 2350 we would have a leap second twice a year, etc.

P.S.  Ever compare time between an Android Phone and an iPhone?  The
network time is based on the Unix standard of seconds since
1970-01-01, ignoring subsequent seconds.  iPhones are coded to add the
leap seconds before displaying the time, Androids are not.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 9:33 PM Bob Bridges  wrote:
>
> I just read an article about time-keeping that made a claim that puzzles me:
>
> "But most people — including commercial programmers, who write the critical 
> software that controls public and private infrastructure — don’t know about 
> the leap second, Matsakis said, and that means their code doesn’t account for 
> it. So when a new leap second rolls around, things break. Reddit, LinkedIn, 
> and Yelp all suffered issues related to the last leap second in 2012. And, 
> more seriously, computer booking systems used by Qantas Airlines all 
> struggled, delaying flights by hours.
>
> "In some cases, it is impossible to update systems before the next leap 
> second arrives. Matsakis spoke of a Switzerland power company whose backup 
> systems only turn on when needed—otherwise, they sit disconnected from the 
> network. When they were activated in a test after the last leap second, they 
> crashed."
>
> What's this about?  What would crash because we didn't account for a leap 
> second?  Why wouldn't a plane scheduled to leave at 13:44:20 on a certain day 
> simply leave at 13:44:19 instead?
>
> The article is here:
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/the-over-perfection-of-humans-global-clock/384355/
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.  -from 
> _Calvin & Hobbes_ */
>
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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