Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-10 Thread Tom Marchant 
Give it a rest Bill.
No one here ever said that they know it all.
Hundreds of times a week? Nope.
Lately you come the closest. Of the 382 posts this month, 48 are from you. And 
many of those include complaints about people who you claim know less than you, 
and a lot of boasting about your knowledge and qualifications.

Sorry for feeding the trolls.

-- 
Tom Marchant


On Fri, 7 Apr 2023 23:38:39 +, Bill Johnson  wrote:

>First off, I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend 
>simple English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at 
>everything and post hundreds of times a week.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
You still retired? Golfing? How’s everything?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:44 PM, william janulin 
<008d52e04f2e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our 
jobs care demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests 
that help no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can 
benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 19:39, Bill 
Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  First off, I’ve 
NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend simple English. 
But, there are some here who think they are an expert at everything and post 
hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this week has been proven 
wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real banks. ING has been a 
disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. Everything I’ve said about me 
is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my intelligence against mostly 
those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m used to the attacks. If you 
google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>> 

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Steve Thompson 

++1

On 4/7/2023 7:43 PM, william janulin wrote:

I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our jobs care 
demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests that help 
no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J.



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread william janulin 
I think everyone should lighten up a bit. We care all professionals and our 
jobs care demanding enough without getting into trivial " spitting " contests 
that help no one. This forum should be one that is a tool that all of us can 
benefit from.
Just saying,. Bill J. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 19:39, Bill 
Johnson<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:   First off, 
I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend simple 
English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at everything 
and post hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this week has 
been proven wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real banks. ING 
has been a disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. Everything I’ve 
said about me is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my intelligence 
against mostly those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m used to the 
attacks. If you google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>>  >>
>>  >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>  >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
First off, I’ve NEVER said I know it all. Many of you can’t even comprehend 
simple English. But, there are some here who think they are an expert at 
everything and post hundreds of times a week. Absolutely nothing I posted this 
week has been proven wrong. Challenger banks were never going to replace real 
banks. ING has been a disaster of an investment and so has Micro Focus. 
Everything I’ve said about me is 100% fact. My whole life I’ve had to defend my 
intelligence against mostly those who likely didn’t earn their success. So, I’m 
used to the attacks. If you google it, it’s quite common. I’m out until David 
post more BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:27 PM, Doug  wrote:

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Many here are prime examples.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
>On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
> wrote:
>>
>>  No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
>>  
>>  From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
>>Doug 
>>  Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>>
>>  "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>>
>>  Describing you, I'd venture
>>
>>
>>  Doug Fuerst
>>
>>
>>  -- Original Message --
>>  From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
>>  Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  value]
>>
>>  >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
>>the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
>>Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
>>journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
>>them all.
>>  >
>>  >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>>  >
>>  >Doug Fuerst
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >-- Original Message --
>>  >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>>  >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>>  >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>>  >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>>  >value]
>>  >
>>  >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>  >>
>>  
>>>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>  >>
>>  >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. 
>>I’m not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  >>>  confirmation...
>>  >>
>>  >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>  >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>  >>
>>  >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>  >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>  >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>  >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>  >>employees or just one person working from home.

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Doug 

And you are the poster child. Pathetic.

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 18:23:33
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Many here are prime examples.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:


 No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
 
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Doug 

 Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
 Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

 "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

 Describing you, I'd venture


 Doug Fuerst


 -- Original Message --
 From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
 Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
 value]

 >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, lawyers, 
and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
 >
 >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
 >
 >
 >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 >
 >
 >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
 >
 >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
 >
 >Doug Fuerst
 >
 >
 >-- Original Message --
 >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
 >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
 >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
 >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
 >value]
 >
 >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
 >>
 
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
 >>
 >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.
 >>
 >>
 >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 >>
 >>
 >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:
 >>
 >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
 >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
 >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
 >>>  confirmation...
 >>
 >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
 >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
 >>
 >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
 >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
 >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
 >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
 >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
 >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
 >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
 >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
 >>for anything.
 >>
 >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
 >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
 >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
 >>
 >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
 >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
 >>
 >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
 >>differing ways, which can be useful.
 >>
 >>
 >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
 >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
 >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
 >>to see other people's profiles.
 >>
 >>--
 >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
 >>
 >>--
 >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
 >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
Many here are prime examples.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:18 PM, Mike Schwab  wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:
>
> No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Doug 
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>
> Describing you, I'd venture
>
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
> >the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
> >Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
> >journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
> >them all.
> >
> >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> >>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
> >>
> >>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
> >>
> >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
> >>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
> >>junkie inner self.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
> >>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
> >>>  confirmation...
> >>
> >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
> >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
> >>
> >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
> >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
> >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
> >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
> >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
> >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
> >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
> >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
> >>for anything.
> >>
> >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
> >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
> >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
> >>
> >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
> >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
> >>
> >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
> >>differing ways, which can be useful.
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
> >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
> >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
> >>to see other people's profiles.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subsc

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
Exactly right. Which describes many here.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 6:13 PM, Frank Swarbrick 
 wrote:

No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Seymour J Metz 
How about someone who knows everything about release foo but doesn't understand 
that it could change in release bar, and therefore never hits the updated 
manuals?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Frank Swarbrick [frank.swarbr...@outlook.com]
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 6:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>   confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Mike Schwab 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 5:13 PM Frank Swarbrick
 wrote:
>
> No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
> Doug 
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> "Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.
>
> Describing you, I'd venture
>
>
> Doug Fuerst
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, 
> >the Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al 
> >Jazeera English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, 
> >journalists, lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to 
> >them all.
> >
> >Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >
> >
> >-- Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> >>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
> >>
> >>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
> >>
> >>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
> >>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
> >>junkie inner self.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
> >>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
> >>>   confirmation...
> >>
> >>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
> >>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
> >>
> >>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
> >>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
> >>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
> >>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
> >>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
> >>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
> >>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
> >>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
> >>for anything.
> >>
> >>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
> >>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
> >>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
> >>
> >>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
> >>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
> >>
> >>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
> >>differing ways, which can be useful.
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
> >>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
> >>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
> >>to see other people's profiles.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MA

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
No one knows as little as one who think's he knows it all.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Doug 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>   Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>   That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>   confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
I’m seldom right. Except with respect to challenger banks, mainframe not going 
bye bye, ING stock being big time terrible, spending 4 years learning investing 
from one of the smartest investment advisors in America, being a contestant on 
Who Wants to be a Millionaire, getting a 10k reward for helping the FBI solve 
an armored car heist, running 2 businesses one of which had dealings with the 
Mafia, and everything else I’ve mentioned here. Some of you are obviously 
jealous.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 2:14 PM, Doug  wrote:

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
My bet is you watch Fox.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 2:14 PM, Doug  wrote:

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
>Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
>English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
>lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.
>
>Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:
>
>So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!
>
>Doug Fuerst
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
>>problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>>
>>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>>
>>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>>junkie inner self.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
>> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>>  confirmation...
>>
>>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>>
>>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>>for anything.
>>
>>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>>
>>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>>
>>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>>differing ways, which can be useful.
>>
>>
>>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>>to see other people's profiles.
>>
>>--
>>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Doug 

"Seldom right, but never uncertain." Frank Reagan.

Describing you, I'd venture


Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 13:36:27
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.

Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem with 
embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:

  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
  confirmation...


I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
I have a math major, studied Accounting in college before switching to Criminal 
Justice then later to computer science & math. Then as my number 1 hobby, 
learned the stock market from a guy who was on the cover of Barron’s magazine 
and invested rather wisely over the last 40 years. I made 1 mistake. The 
internet bubble. But, recovered it all back and then some.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 9:48 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:

"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >------ Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
Mirror


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 9:48 AM, Joe Monk  wrote:

"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >------ Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>---

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
You don’t really understand Twitter do you? If I follow the WaPo, the NYT, the 
Guardian, the LA Times, the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, Al Jazeera 
English, NPR, PBS, BBC, and science magazines, scientists, journalists, 
lawyers, and other fact based sources, it’s like subscribing to them all.

Add in some comedy sources and that’s my Twitter feed.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:32 AM, Doug  wrote:

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
>with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
>https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv
>
>I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m 
>not on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news 
>junkie inner self.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
> wrote:
>
>On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
>>  Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
>>  That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
>>  confirmation...
>
>I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
>and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.
>
>I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
>I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
>computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
>some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
>employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
>look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
>are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
>of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
>for anything.
>
>Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
>for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
>year or two, or did they only qualify last year?
>
>Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
>how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?
>
>Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
>differing ways, which can be useful.
>
>
>I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
>that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
>me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
>to see other people's profiles.
>
>--
>Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
>--
>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
>
>
>--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
Crayford originally said challenger banks and posted these 5. Startling, Yolt, 
Monzo, Moneze, N26. Of those 5 from his mention last year, almost all 5 have 
either closed, pulled out of some markets, had CEO quit, & none are thriving. 
Blowing his theory they will replace real banks.
When money is almost free, zero interest rates, there will always be startups 
that are not really needed or viable. And calling something that doesn’t 
provide what actual banks provide a bank isn’t anything more that an attempt to 
give it some street cred. Since last years Fed rate raises, a bunch of these 
startups have died. Even some actual banks ran into problems.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:38 AM, Doug  wrote:

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks 
which challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern 
financial technology and are more focused on the customer. This way they 
want to “challenge” the old banks. Challenger banks are also called neo 
banks.

So, just banks

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
>entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
>bank" is.  Can someone define it?
>
>---
>Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
>/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
>individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
>Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
>had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. 
>Of course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
>congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
>simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Bill Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10
>
>ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
>bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling
>
>--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Doug 
I'd love to know if they figure out new ways to lend or save money. I 
guess different vehicles may qualify (CD's, Money Market's, etc.) but 
loans are generally mortgages, personal, cars (which is a form of 
personal anyway) and commercial. I thought they figured out every way 
possible to give er...loan people money.
From what I see, it's all their substance. Make it easier, take deposits 

remotely, etc. which most every bank seems to have now.
Got me.  But I'd love to know. I mean, even Zelle and Venmo are just 
different payment mechanisms.


Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 11:06:05
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Thanks.  By "modern financial technology" do you suppose they're talking about things like on-line 
banking apps?  Because pretty much everyone does that nowadays - so, as you said, "just banks".  On 
the other hand maybe "financial technology" means trying out new practices in borrowing and 
lending, in which case I'm a lot less sanguine.  I'll let them experiment with someone else's money at first.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...if you move, you'll end up like us: surrounded by hundreds of cardboard boxes 
packed by strangers ... Virtually every box will be labeled with some mutant spelling of 
the word "miscellaneous."  You will not be able to find ANYTHING.  For example, 
I'm pretty sure that, before we moved, we had a seven-month-old daughter.  -Dave Barry, 
Miami Herald 2000-11-05 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 10:38

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks which 
challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern financial technology 
and are more focused on the customer. This way they want to “challenge” the old 
banks. Challenger banks are also called neo banks.

So, just banks

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41


I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild entertainment value, 
but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger bank" is.  Can someone 
define it?


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
I’ve got a plethora of Engineers in my family. They were all able to get 
employed pre-social media/LinkedIn.
I don’t think there are many idiots on here. There are some who embellish their 
skillsets and some AH’s who use the platform for their egos.
I’ve worked with a lot of brilliant people in 40+ years. None post here with 
any frequency. From an IMS expert Rodecker at EDS Packard Electric, to a DB2 
DBA by the name of Hadden at Revco, to a guy named Alan at my most recent 
employer. (You know who you are) Many in between. I’ve met quite a few at 
various conferences and classes. Quackenbush, Thomen, Roger Miller, Yevich, and 
others.

I’ve also worked with some awful people.
But, overall it’s been an interesting journey.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 10:00 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are 
basically 
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech) 
communities.  


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I 
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got 
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with 
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the 
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Seymour J Metz 
Re fake resumes: I learned a long time ago not to trust any resume not given 
directly by the applicant. And if you're the applicant, don't assume that the 
agency didn't add skills that you don't have.

In the specific case of LinkedIn, that issue shouldn't exist, but there may be 
serious parsing errors.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Jeremy Nicoll 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 9:59 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are basically
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech)
communities.


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bob Bridges 
Thanks.  By "modern financial technology" do you suppose they're talking about 
things like on-line banking apps?  Because pretty much everyone does that 
nowadays - so, as you said, "just banks".  On the other hand maybe "financial 
technology" means trying out new practices in borrowing and lending, in which 
case I'm a lot less sanguine.  I'll let them experiment with someone else's 
money at first.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ...if you move, you'll end up like us: surrounded by hundreds of cardboard 
boxes packed by strangers ... Virtually every box will be labeled with some 
mutant spelling of the word "miscellaneous."  You will not be able to find 
ANYTHING.  For example, I'm pretty sure that, before we moved, we had a 
seven-month-old daughter.  -Dave Barry, Miami Herald 2000-11-05 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Doug
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 10:38

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks which 
challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern financial technology 
and are more focused on the customer. This way they want to “challenge” the old 
banks. Challenger banks are also called neo banks.

So, just banks

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41

>I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
>entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
>bank" is.  Can someone define it?

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Doug 

Off the net:

So-called challenger banks are in most cases small modern retail banks 
which challenge longer-established institutes by offering modern 
financial technology and are more focused on the customer. This way they 
want to “challenge” the old banks. Challenger banks are also called neo 
banks.


So, just banks

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Bob Bridges" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 10:35:41
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild entertainment value, 
but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger bank" is.  Can someone 
define it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. Of 
course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10

ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bob Bridges 
I've following this thread mostly because I'm bored and it has mild 
entertainment value, but I'm handicapped by not knowing what a "challenger 
bank" is.  Can someone define it?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Every year, on April 15, all members of Congress would be placed in 
individual prison cells with the necessary tax forms and a copy of the Tax 
Code. They would remain locked in the cells, without food or water, until they 
had completed their tax returns and successfully undergone a full IRS audit. Of 
course this system would probably result in a severe shortage of 
congresspersons. But there might also be some drawbacks. -Dave Barry's plan to 
simplify the tax code, 2000-04-09 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2023 18:10

ING is partially a bank but they still shut down their challenger “quasi 
bank” YOLT. And the other challenger “banks” are struggling

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Doug 

So you get your "news" from Twitter. For me, that explains ALOT!

Doug Fuerst


-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 07-Apr-23 8:23:03
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem with 
embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:

 Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn.
 That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for
 confirmation...


I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles.

--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN




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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Jeremy Nicoll 
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a 
> problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are 
basically 
correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest.

And, do you think I'm an idiot?

Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local
architects, lawyers etc.  With, one at least has a few pointers with which one
can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc.  Of course not all of
what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to
work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a
complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech) 
communities.  


> I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see

No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post.

It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or
to use nicknames in some or all places.  I decided in the 1990s that I 
would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd
have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got 
completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide
behind some level of anonymity.

But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with 
people.  I don't put my home address in my email signature - some
people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the 
world they're going on holiday...


> I’m not on Facebook

OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound
with nearly no in-person social life either.  But for people who are, the
various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and
it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Joe Monk 
"I know more about banking than you know it alls."

You dont know what you dont know.

Joe

On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 9:16 PM Bill Johnson <
0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
> >I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment
> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6
> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last
> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
> >
> >
> >Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> >
> >On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
> >
> >Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
> >you never have.
> >
> >
> >Doug Fuerst
> >d...@bkassociates.net
> >
> >------ Original Message --
> >From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> >To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> >Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
> >Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> >value]
> >
> >>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to
> be made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed.
> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on
> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in
> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill
> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because
> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying
> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most
> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can
> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
> >>
> >>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies
> by how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent
> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly
> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of
> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the
> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail
> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
> >>
> >>
> >>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen <
> rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe
> stuff on Micro Focus.
> >>
> >>best regards,
> >>
> >>René.
> >>
> >>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson <
> 0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
> >>>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> >>send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> &g

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Seymour J Metz 
So by you lying about people's beliefs and motives is a sign of highest regard? 
I suggest that you take your own advice.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
David Crayford 
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2023 12:04 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford 
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as 
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex 
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions.
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are
not generating much interest or value.
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
>> I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment 
>> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 
>> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 
>> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>> you never have.
>>
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>> d...@bkassociates.net
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>> value]
>>
>>> Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>> made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. 
>>> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on 
>>> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in 
>>> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill 
>>> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because 
>>> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying 
>>> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most 
>>> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can 
>>> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>>
>>> You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by 
>>> how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent 
>>> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly 
>>> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of 
>>> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the 
>>> largest banks in the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail 
>>> banking is a profit generating machine is not paying attention.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very lar

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Bill Johnson 
I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a problem 
with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv

I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see. I’m not 
on Facebook, Tiktok, Instagram, but do use Twitter to satisfy my news junkie 
inner self.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 7:32 AM, Jeremy Nicoll 
 wrote:

On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. 
> That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for 
> confirmation...

I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in 
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of 
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a 
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?  

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in 
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so 
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding 
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles. 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-07 Thread Jeremy Nicoll 
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote:
> Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. 
> That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for 
> confirmation...

I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking"
and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work.

I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom
I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in 
computing).  It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from
some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of 
employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also
look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors
are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any
of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted
for anything.

Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies
for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a 
year or two, or did they only qualify last year?  

Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of
how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer?

Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in 
differing ways, which can be useful.


I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so 
that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding 
me if they want to.  And also - you have to be a member to be able
to see other people's profiles. 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. That’s just 
an ego trip and place where people like you go for confirmation. I’ve never 
needed it. Everything I’ve said here is 100% fact. You must be searching for me 
huh?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:17 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:
> ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in 
> the last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe 
> and replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the 
> bushel, isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down 
> soon after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
> assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
> touted?

You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.


>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
>
> On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>> stuff on Micro Focus.
> ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
> meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
> ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
> x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
> moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.
>
>
>> best regards,
>>
>> René.
>>
>>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
Why is ING stock down to $10 a share from $22 two decades ago. Size doesn’t 
matter, profits do. You’re as financially savvy as you are IT savvy.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:17 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:
> ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in 
> the last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe 
> and replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the 
> bushel, isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down 
> soon after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
> assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
> touted?

You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.


>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
>
> On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
>> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>> stuff on Micro Focus.
> ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
> meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
> ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
> x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
> moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.
>
>
>> best regards,
>>
>> René.
>>
>>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
LOLOLOLOL, there are thousands of Systems Programmers and other IT 
professionals in the world. About a dozen dominate this forum. I don’t have the 
free time or the ego necessary to post here hundreds of times a week. I don’t 
need the confirmation. My experience is more varied and longer than yours by 
nearly 15 years. If your worth is determined by the number of postings here, 
you’re a sad loser.
ING is the 36th largest financial institution in the world. That’s 
unimpressive. And as an investment, has been terrible. Losing half its stock 
value. Explains the cost cutting management had to try to save costs by 
eliminating the mainframe. And the millions down the drain on their challenger 
bank.
Micro Focus is also a money loser for years. Stock was under $2/share until 
OpenText bought them last year for $6, right before IBM sued them for allegedly 
trying to reverse engineer IBM software.

Who is Jerzy?

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, April 7, 2023, 12:05 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:
> I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford 
> wrong regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as 
> their stock price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex 
> reasons or are you making that up too?
>
Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but 
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These 
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive 
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle 
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions. 
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please 
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are 
not generating much interest or value.
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
> For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
> Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
> macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
> the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
> actually understand the business.
> And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
> profitable.
>
> Doug Fuerst
> d...@bkassociates.net
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
> value]
>
>> I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment 
>> bank. Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 
>> times earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 
>> 20 years. Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>> you never have.
>>
>>
>> Doug Fuerst
>> d...@bkassociates.net
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>> Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>> value]
>>
>>> Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>> made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. 
>>> Mellon bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on 
>>> investment banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in 
>>> our financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill 
>>> Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because 
>>> of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying 
>>> to rip off consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most 
>>> banks are trying to get into investment banking where significant money can 
>>> be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>>
>>> You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by 
>>> how quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent 
>>> because of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly 
>>> up until UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of 
>>> profitability either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. O

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread David Crayford 

On 7/4/23 12:12, Bill Johnson wrote:

ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in the 
last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe and 
replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the bushel, 
isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down soon 
after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
touted?


You need to see a doctor man, you've lost your mind :) Top 30 biggest 
banks in the word is money loser. Take a nap fella. Go and rest your 
legs and have lay down. You spouted the same BS about FedEx when the 
announced their intentions to move to the cloud. Is Bill Johnson your 
real name? Please provide a link to your linkedin profile so we can all 
have laugh.





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.



best regards,

René.


On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
ING is maybe top 30. The stock has been a real dog losing half its value in the 
last 20 years. A money loser. Any company that shut down their mainframe and 
replaced it with Micro Focus, another company that loses money by the bushel, 
isn’t much of a bank. They opened a challenger bank and shut it down soon 
after. Probably wasted tens of millions or more. Just over a trillion in 
assets. Small time. Hey David, where are all those challenger “banks” you 
touted? 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 11:56 PM, David Crayford  
wrote:

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:
> They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
> Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
> Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
> Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
> stuff on Micro Focus.

ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a 
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for 
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on 
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers 
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.


>
> best regards,
>
> René.
>
>> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>> ING isn’t a bank either.
>>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread David Crayford 

On 7/4/23 10:15, Bill Johnson wrote:

I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford wrong 
regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as their stock 
price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex reasons or are you 
making that up too?

Throughout my time on this forum, I've engaged in numerous debates, but 
I always maintain the highest regard for those I disagree with. These 
individuals are exceptional mainframe experts, boasting extensive 
experience and adding immense value to our community. Bill, I struggle 
to recall any technical insights you've shared in our discussions. 
Instead, you tend to repeatedly express unconstructive comments. Please 
consider reevaluating your approach, as your current contributions are 
not generating much interest or value.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:

For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking.
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite
profitable.

Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


   On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

   ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread David Crayford 

On 7/4/23 06:07, René Jansen wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.


ING are one of the biggest banks in the world. My colleague and I had a 
meeting with a clever guy who works for the DTO who used to work for 
ING. He told us that they were still running some COBOL applications on 
x86. It was a shock! It's never nice to hear about really big customers 
moving off platform as it shrinks the market for all of us.





best regards,

René.


On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

ING isn’t a bank either.


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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
I know more about banking than you know it alls. Already proved Crayford wrong 
regarding the challenger banks. And ING dropped their mainframe as their stock 
price is cut in half the last 20 years. Explain the complex reasons or are you 
making that up too?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 10:11 PM, Doug  wrote:

For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking. 
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some 
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on 
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I 
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite 
profitable.

Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
>Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
>earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
>Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:
>
>Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
>you never have.
>
>
>Doug Fuerst
>d...@bkassociates.net
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
>To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
>Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
>Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
>value]
>
>>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be 
>>made in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon 
>>bank saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment 
>>banking. Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our 
>>financial arena. It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 
>>2008 during the meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their 
>>focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off 
>>consumers because there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are 
>>trying to get into investment banking where significant money can be made. 
>>Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>>
>>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
>>quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because 
>>of their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until 
>>UBS saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability 
>>either. Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in 
>>the world. Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit 
>>generating machine is not paying attention.
>>
>>
>>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>
>>
>>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>>Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>>Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>>Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>>stuff on Micro Focus.
>>
>>best regards,
>>
>>René.
>>
>>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>>><0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
>>>
>>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Doug 
For alot more complex reasons than your simplistic view of banking. 
Perhaps some time learning real banking might help. Or some 
macroeconomics to go along with it. I've made plenty over the years on 
the right bank investments. And took some risks with others. But I 
actually understand the business.
And despite your pronouncement, plenty of retail banks are quite 
profitable.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 20:19:39
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly,
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by
value]


Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

  ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
And their stock performance has been dismal for decades.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
I did. Mellon Bank during the transition from retail bank to investment bank. 
Retail banking sucks for profits. That’s why Citi is selling for 6 times 
earnings. ING stock would have lost you a ton of money over the last 20 years. 
Why are bank stocks selling at a huge discount to the market?


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 8:06 PM, Doug  wrote:

Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly, 
you never have.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]

>Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made 
>in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank 
>saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. 
>Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. 
>It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the 
>meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their focus on retail 
>banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers 
>because there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are trying to get 
>into investment banking where significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman 
>Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.
>
>You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
>quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
>their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
>saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
>Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
>Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
>machine is not paying attention.
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
> wrote:
>
>They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
>Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
>Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
>Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
>stuff on Micro Focus.
>
>best regards,
>
>René.
>
>>  On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
>><0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>>
>>  ING isn’t a bank either.
>>
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Doug 
Maybe you should have actually worked in retail banking, which clearly, 
you never have.



Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 19:16:58
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made in 
challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank saw this 
20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. Mostly for 
the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. It’s why Bank of 
America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the meltdown. And still 
can’t make much money because of their focus on retail banking. Wells Fargo got 
fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because there’s little money in 
retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into investment banking where 
significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


 On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
Like I said, there’s little money in retail banking. And zero money to be made 
in challenger banking. It’s why they are all shrinking or closed. Mellon bank 
saw this 20+ years ago. ING & others are focusing more on investment banking. 
Mostly for the high net worth people but also people in our financial arena. 
It’s why Bank of America agreed to take on Merrill Lynch in 2008 during the 
meltdown. And still can’t make much money because of their focus on retail 
banking. Wells Fargo got fined a bundle for trying to rip off consumers because 
there’s little money in retail banking. Most banks are trying to get into 
investment banking where significant money can be made. Quasi Goldman Sachs or 
Morgan Stanley like.

You can see how precarious the economy is for retail banking companies by how 
quickly they can become insolvent. Even a bank considered excellent because of 
their clientele like SVB. Then Credit Suisse almost went belly up until UBS 
saved them. Deutsche Bank isn’t exactly a bastion of profitability either. 
Citibank almost went belly up in 2008. One of the largest banks in the world. 
Anyone who claims banking, especially retail banking is a profit generating 
machine is not paying attention.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Doug 
What gave you the idea that retail banking is a low profit business? It 
really does not have to be depending on how it is run. ANYTHING can be 
low profit, even IBM, when it is run badly.


Doug Fuerst
d...@bkassociates.net

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill Johnson" <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 06-Apr-23 18:13:55
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by 
value]



I used to work at Mellon bank in Pittsburgh. Mellon shut down their retail 
banking division to concentrate on the investment industry. Over 20 years ago. 
Retail banking is a low profit business. Challenger banking is a no profit 
business. Which is why they are failing.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.


 On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 ING isn’t a bank either.



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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
More on ING.
Why is ING bank closed?Dutch banking giant ING is leaving the Philippine retail 
banking market before the end of 2022. ING cited the “uncertain global macro 
situation in the last few years” as the primary reason that led to it decision 
to pull back from expanding activities in other countries, the Philippines 
included.
























Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
I used to work at Mellon bank in Pittsburgh. Mellon shut down their retail 
banking division to concentrate on the investment industry. Over 20 years ago. 
Retail banking is a low profit business. Challenger banking is a no profit 
business. Which is why they are failing.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 6:07 PM, René Jansen 
 wrote:

They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
The know it all took a few days for this. ING is partially a bank but they 
still shut down their challenger “quasi bank” YOLT. And the other challenger 
“banks” are struggling. Funny how that happens when the cost of money 
increases. And investors want profits and returns for their investments. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
&

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread René Jansen 
They will be disappointed if they hear that, there are a fusion between 
Rijkspostspaarbank, NMB (Nederlansche Middenstandsbank, Postcheque en 
Girodienst, and Nationale Nederlanden. They are a very large bank in the 
Netherlands. And yes they are off the mainframe, running a lot of mainframe 
stuff on Micro Focus.

best regards,

René.

> On 7 Apr 2023, at 00:01, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> ING isn’t a bank either. 
> 

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
Here’s some comments from the ING CEO. From 2016.

Speaking to The Register, he confirmed the finance giant still ran mainframes: 
“You won’t find a bank without a mainframe, unless recently established.”

But, he continued, “We are extremely aggressively moving away from them.”

This was not because “a mainframe in itself is a bad technology. It’s maybe one 
of the most virtualised environments ever invented, even before the whole 
hypervisor was there.”

"Intrinsically," he said, "there’s two problems. [Firstly] They’re not 
real-time in their connectivity."

***

Utter BS.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: AS

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread Bill Johnson 
ING isn’t a bank either. 


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 6, 2023, 5:59 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. 
>> If the reader of th

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-06 Thread David Crayford 
> On 5 Apr 2023, at 11:20, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> I remember this.
> David Crayford said:
> ”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, 
> Moneze, N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are 
> gaining millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My response
> 
> Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How’s those challenger banks doing?
> YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
> jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

ING moved off the mainframe a couple of years ago. 


> MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
> Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
> Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
> (and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
> Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business 
> model.
> So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
> <0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that 
> working out?
> Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
> market.
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> +1
>> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
>> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
>> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
>> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/
> 
> Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!
> 
> "The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
> research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"
> 
> Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
> like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
>> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references 
>> to COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> Programmers like me.
>> 
>> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
>> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
>> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
>> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
>> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
>> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>> 
>> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
>> profitably.
>> 
>> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
>> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
>> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>> 
>> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>> Paul Gilmartin
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>> 
>> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
>> brain.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
>> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. 
>> If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
>> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
>> dissemination of this commun

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-04-04 Thread Bill Johnson 
I remember this.
David Crayford said:
”I'm calling BS. None of the challenger banks (Startling, Yolt, Monzo, Moneze, 
N26 etc) run mainframes. They have millions of customers and are gaining 
millions by the week at the expense of traditional banks.”




My response

Most of those “banks” aren’t banks and most of them are kaput.




How’s those challenger banks doing?
YOLT = owned by ING (who runs a mainframe) is being shut down.MONZO = CEO 
jumped ship. Not going well.N26 = pulled out of the US.

MONEZE = actually spelled MONESE. Doesn’t look like they are replacing JP 
Morgan any time soon.STARLING = tiny barely staying viable.
Many are charging fees now. Amazing that investors always want some revenue 
(and eventually profit) to justify the investment.
Having millions of mostly poor customers isn’t exactly a booming business model.
So I’ll repeat. 95% of banks use the mainframe. Not these fake banks.





Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:33 PM, Bill Johnson 
<0047540adefe-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

You said internet banking was going to destroy large banks. How’s that working 
out?
Microfocus COBOL isn’t regular COBOL. And is a tiny fraction of the COBOL 
market.


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, March 27, 2023, 11:26 PM, David Crayford  wrote:

On 27/3/23 22:07, Bill Johnson wrote:
> +1
> About a year or so ago I posted about the number of lines of COBOL code in 
> use worldwide and stated COBOL was going to be the language of choice for 
> many decades to come. Estimates say 800 billion lines (and growing) in use 
> today. As usual, I was attacked for my fact based opinion. 
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-how-much-cobol-code-is-out-there-the-answer-might-surprise-you/

Facts! You've quoted an article from the internet!

"The study, commissioned by IT company Micro Focus and conducted by 
research and analysis firm Vanson Bourne"

Micro Focus is a vendor who hawks COBOL compilers and IDE's. It's a bit 
like McDonalds commissioning research on the health benefits of Big Mac's.


>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, March 27, 2023, 1:56 AM, Farley, Peter 
> <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> I am getting increasingly tired of snide or outright dismissive references to 
> COBOL and by extension to COBOL programmers.
>
> Programmers like me.
>
> Yes, I am also well versed in HLASM, Rexx, awk and gawk, somewhat facile in 
> SORT (at least as far as knowing and using JOIN's), SQL, JCL and various 
> other z/OS utilities, MetalC, and lately python and bash scripting.  I even 
> remember some of the PL/I and Fortran and Pascal I used in college and my 
> early employment days.  I even remember some SNOBOL, which I actually got to 
> use productively at a then-major NY bank very early in my career.
>
> COBOL pays my bills and keeps my employer operating successfully and 
> profitably.
>
> COBOL does NOT rot the brain.  Alcohol and various other legal and illegal 
> substances can, in fact, do that.  Intelligently devising business solutions 
> to business problems in ANY computer language does NOT rot the brain.
>
> It is not funny or acceptable to say so.  It never was.
>
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Paul Gilmartin
> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 8:14 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 23:18:49 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:
>
> 
>
>> In COBOL, for example, the following end up doing the same thing.
>>
> Do not use CO BOL as an exemplar of programming discipline.  Cobol rots the 
> brain.
>
> --
>
> This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the 
> addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If 
> the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized 
> representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any 
> dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
> received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail 
> and delete the message and any attachments from your system.
>
>
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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-04 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 02:09:51 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer  wrote:

>Now I'll try an answer to the other question(s), see below ...
>
>Am 03.04.2023 um 01:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:
>> Are the external semantics (not examining the generated assembly) of
>> "pass by content" any different from "pass by value"?   How?
>
>maybe not
>
>> It would seem more efficient for the called function to perform the copy
>> rather than the caller because the code to perform the copy would exist
>> only once in the subroutine rather than at each point of call.
>
>I don't think so.
>
>If the copy would be done by the called routine, you would need two
>copies ...
>first you would need to copy the addresses of the parameters to the stack
>(because otherwise the called routine would not know where to copy the
>parameters from)
>and then the second copy in the called routine, which copies the values
>from the original place
>in the caller's area to the stack frame of the called routine. This
>takes more time to do it
>and additional stack space for the address list, and: this is true IMO,
>no matter what platform
>you are running on. It is therefore better to copy the values to the
>parameter list directly and
>this must be done by the caller; the caller has to prepare the parameter
>list. BTW: this is done
>this way by every compiler that I am aware of, my New Stanford Pascal
>compiler and every
>other compiler that I have examined in the last years, different platforms.
>
>This is maybe a time to space tradeoff, in the end ... but all compilers
>decide for time saving.
>
I doubt there's a significant performance difference between the caller's
copying the content and the callee's doing so.  It may have been more
important to preserve compatibility with support tools: debuggers and
dump analyzers which depend on the reg1 PL containing addresses of
parameters seen by the callee, even in an asynchronous snapshot.

From the HLL point of view, "call by content" is "call by value" with an
idiosyncratic name for identical semantics.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-03 Thread Seymour J Metz 
It depends on the language. In general, the caller must provide by the calling 
conventions that the callee expects and the callee must abide by the 
restriction in the parameter declarations.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Frank Swarbrick 
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 12:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Yes, the callee is unaware of if the caller used pass by reference or pass by 
content.  That's a call site feature only.  The callee uses (the default) call 
by reference regardless.
A "by reference" parameter can be specified for any call, and need not be "the 
same" for additional calls to the same subroutine.

Interesting you mention function prototypes.  Those were not supported until 
the 2002 COBOL standard, and still have yet to be implemented in to Enterprise 
COBOL.  Soon, perhaps.  IBM only added user-defined functions in the most 
recent version (E.C. 6.4), and without prototypes those are rather awkward, so 
I'm hopeful for prototypes "soon".

As things are, without prototypes, for the CALL statement there is no parameter 
checking.  Just like in assembler...


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 04:57:02 +, Frank Swarbrick  wrote:
>
>(reply)  Call by content is enforced by the caller.  Call by value is enforced 
>by the callee.
>
Ah.  In my jargon I'd use "declared".  So the callee is unaware of the
distinction between reference and content; it just sees an address in
either case.

Is "content" declared in a function prototype or at the point of call?
If the latter, I'd imagine that the same function could be called with
arguments by reference at one point and by content at another.

--
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-03 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
Yes, the callee is unaware of if the caller used pass by reference or pass by 
content.  That's a call site feature only.  The callee uses (the default) call 
by reference regardless.
A "by reference" parameter can be specified for any call, and need not be "the 
same" for additional calls to the same subroutine.

Interesting you mention function prototypes.  Those were not supported until 
the 2002 COBOL standard, and still have yet to be implemented in to Enterprise 
COBOL.  Soon, perhaps.  IBM only added user-defined functions in the most 
recent version (E.C. 6.4), and without prototypes those are rather awkward, so 
I'm hopeful for prototypes "soon".

As things are, without prototypes, for the CALL statement there is no parameter 
checking.  Just like in assembler...


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:27 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 04:57:02 +, Frank Swarbrick  wrote:
>
>(reply)  Call by content is enforced by the caller.  Call by value is enforced 
>by the callee.
>
Ah.  In my jargon I'd use "declared".  So the callee is unaware of the
distinction between reference and content; it just sees an address in
either case.

Is "content" declared in a function prototype or at the point of call?
If the latter, I'd imagine that the same function could be called with
arguments by reference at one point and by content at another.

--
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-03 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 04:57:02 +, Frank Swarbrick  wrote:
>
>(reply)  Call by content is enforced by the caller.  Call by value is enforced 
>by the callee.
>
Ah.  In my jargon I'd use "declared".  So the callee is unaware of the
distinction between reference and content; it just sees an address in
either case.

Is "content" declared in a function prototype or at the point of call?
If the latter, I'd imagine that the same function could be called with
arguments by reference at one point and by content at another.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-03 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 13:21:41 +, Peter Relson wrote:
>...
>Thus if you want something passed by-value, you "ask" for it by your 
>definition of the parameters in an "entry declare" that can be used both by 
>the caller and callee. 
>
That feels like a function prototype.

>If you want something identified as "input-only" you can do so. The compiler 
>flags writes into things that are input-only by reference. It is deemed OK to 
>write into something that is input-only by-value because it has no effect on 
>the argument.
>
I was once maintaining/enhancing a FOSS Pascal implementation for only
in-house use.  A user asked for the ability to prohibit or flag writing into
by-value (default) parameters.  I put the request at the "never" end of my
priorities.

-- 
Thanks,
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-03 Thread Peter Relson 
FWIW,

PL/X has a simple clear default: everything is passed by reference (and is 
treated as input/output - readable and writeable). That is the historical 
linkage standard. PLX will only do what is asked for.

Thus if you want something passed by-value, you "ask" for it by your definition 
of the parameters in an "entry declare" that can be used both by the caller and 
callee. If you want something identified as "input-only" you can do so. The 
compiler flags writes into things that are input-only by reference. It is 
deemed OK to write into something that is input-only by-value because it has no 
effect on the argument.

By-value things (by the PL/X definition) are things that fit into the parameter 
list and that is exactly where they go -- a parameter list "slot" for the value.


BTW: you are using C for z/OS development, too, as I am told. Would you
tell us if you use C with
the standard C linkage or with something like #pragma linkage (...,OS)?

Very little C would use #pragma linkage(...,OS) unless it was "calling out" to 
a z/OS service that supports what I think of as "standard linkage" which is 
very different than "standard C linkage" (let alone XPLINK)

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
Comments inline (reply) below (without leading >; I don't seem to have that 
feature available).


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2023 5:32 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 22:37:53 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:

>I'm just going to put this out there...  Dingus has an online test C compiler, 
>which outputs the generated assembler.  You can find it at 
>http://www.dignus.com/dcc/compileit.html.
>
Thanks.

>I ran the following program through it.

>void fun1(tester *, int *);
>void fun2(tester, int);
>
What do you see if you provide actual function bodies, not only prototypes/?

(reply) Are you thinking the call sites will change at all, or do you just want 
to see how called functions handle the parameters?
I can tell you for certain, even without doing it, that they (the called 
functions) are handled differently.  They have to be, after all, based on the 
fact that the parameters are passed differently.

...
>Something to note, and it's not supported by C as far as I am aware, is 
>neither of these are "pass by content".  Pass by content is "pass address of a 
>copy of the field".  So a copy is done, as with fun2, but the parameter list 
>pointed to by R1 is not the address of the copied fields but rather the 
>address of a parmeter list that contains the addresses of both copied fields.
>
Are the external semantics (not examining the generated assembly)  of
"pass by content" any different from "pass by value"?   How?

(reply)  Call by content is enforced by the caller.  Call by value is enforced 
by the callee.

It would seem more efficient for the called function to perform the copy
rather than the caller because the code to perform the copy would exist
only once in the subroutine rather than at each point of call.

(reply) well, as I said, the caller is the one who cares that the variable is 
not altered, and thus passes a copy.  It could just as well be accomplished by 
copying the variable to a temp field and passing the temp field by reference.  
I mostly use it to pass a length "special register" value,

CALL 'mysubr' USING BY REFERENCE my-string BY CONTENT LENGTH OF my-string.
This can be "shortened: to
CALL 'mysubr' USING my-string CONTENT LENGTH OF my-string.

Because a COBOL special register itself is not updateable it cannot be passed 
by reference and must be passed by value.  In general there isn't much need to 
pass an actual variable by content.
--
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 01:48:31 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
>>
>C only supports call by value;
>if you want other things like call by reference or "call by content", as
>defined by COBOL,
>you have do simulate them by passing pointers by value explicitly
>(and in the case of call by content, by copying the parameters before
>passing their addresses).
> 
I'm starting to suspect that "call by content" is COBOL jargon.  Is there any
difference observable to the programmer between call by content and call by
value?  Is the "address" passed visible to the programmer?  (If a C programmer
simulates call by reference by passing a generated pointer it is visible to the
called routine and generating it is visible to the caller as "&".)

>C is a very small language - ...
>
Perhaps too small, because of the limitations of older computers, thus
the heed for "lint".  I've never used lint.  I believe most of its function
is replaced by function prototypes, which can be required by compiler
option.  And gcc even warns me about disagreement between format
replacement and operand type when it can.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Now I'll try an answer to the other question(s), see below ...


Am 03.04.2023 um 01:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

Are the external semantics (not examining the generated assembly) of
"pass by content" any different from "pass by value"?   How?


maybe not


It would seem more efficient for the called function to perform the copy
rather than the caller because the code to perform the copy would exist
only once in the subroutine rather than at each point of call.


I don't think so.

If the copy would be done by the called routine, you would need two 
copies ...

first you would need to copy the addresses of the parameters to the stack
(because otherwise the called routine would not know where to copy the 
parameters from)
and then the second copy in the called routine, which copies the values 
from the original place
in the caller's area to the stack frame of the called routine. This 
takes more time to do it
and additional stack space for the address list, and: this is true IMO, 
no matter what platform
you are running on. It is therefore better to copy the values to the 
parameter list directly and
this must be done by the caller; the caller has to prepare the parameter 
list. BTW: this is done
this way by every compiler that I am aware of, my New Stanford Pascal 
compiler and every

other compiler that I have examined in the last years, different platforms.

This is maybe a time to space tradeoff, in the end ... but all compilers 
decide for time saving.


BTW: that's why IMO it's important to make a sharp distinction between 
call by value
as described above and - for example - PL/1 dummy arguments, which is in 
fact call by
reference with a copy of parameter values before - this is what COBOL 
calls "call by content".
For the called routine there is no difference between call by reference, 
PL/1 dummy arguments

or COBOL's call by content ... all the same.

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Am 03.04.2023 um 00:37 schrieb Frank Swarbrick:

Something to note, and it's not supported by C as far as I am aware, is neither of these are 
"pass by content".  Pass by content is "pass address of a copy of the field".  
So a copy is done, as with fun2, but the parameter list pointed to by R1 is not the address of the 
copied fields but rather the address of a parameter list that contains the addresses of both copied 
fields.


C only supports call by value;
if you want other things like call by reference or "call by content", as 
defined by COBOL,

you have do simulate them by passing pointers by value explicitly
(and in the case of call by content, by copying the parameters before 
passing their addresses).


C is a very small language - the C designers IMO believed that call by 
value is sufficient,
because all other call mechanisms can simulated (maybe not call by name, 
which was

introduced with ALGOL 60 and is very special).

Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 
I will try to answer one of your questions, see below ... kind regards / 
Bernd



Am 03.04.2023 um 01:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 22:37:53 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:


I'm just going to put this out there...  Dingus has an online test C compiler, 
which outputs the generated assembler.  You can find it at 
http://www.dignus.com/dcc/compileit.html.


Thanks.


I ran the following program through it.



void fun1(tester *, int *);
void fun2(tester, int);


What do you see if you provide actual function bodies, not only prototypes/?
 ...


you will see the same, except for a chance that the functions may be 
inlined,
if you add the static attribute to them, and if they are small enough to 
enable inlining.


There is no difference in calling sequence between internal (static) and 
external functions.
At least that's the case with IBM's compilers, but I'm almost sure 
Dignus will behave the same.


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 22:37:53 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote:

>I'm just going to put this out there...  Dingus has an online test C compiler, 
>which outputs the generated assembler.  You can find it at 
>http://www.dignus.com/dcc/compileit.html.
>
Thanks.

>I ran the following program through it.

>void fun1(tester *, int *);
>void fun2(tester, int);
>
What do you see if you provide actual function bodies, not only prototypes/?
...
>Something to note, and it's not supported by C as far as I am aware, is 
>neither of these are "pass by content".  Pass by content is "pass address of a 
>copy of the field".  So a copy is done, as with fun2, but the parameter list 
>pointed to by R1 is not the address of the copied fields but rather the 
>address of a parmeter list that contains the addresses of both copied fields.
>
Are the external semantics (not examining the generated assembly)  of
"pass by content" any different from "pass by value"?   How?

It would seem more efficient for the called function to perform the copy
rather than the caller because the code to perform the copy would exist
only once in the subroutine rather than at each point of call.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
I'm just going to put this out there...  Dingus has an online test C compiler, 
which outputs the generated assembler.  You can find it at 
http://www.dignus.com/dcc/compileit.html.

I ran the following program through it.

#include 
typedef struct tester {
   char c;
   int i;
   char s[80];
} tester;

void fun1(tester *, int *);
void fun2(tester, int);

int main() {
tester testr_s = {'a', 1, "this is a test"};
int maxlen = sizeof(testr_s.s);
int currlen = strnlen(testr_s, maxlen);
fun1(_s, );
fun2(testr_s, maxlen);
return 0;
}


The fun1 function takes two addresses, one pointing to a "tester" structure 
field and one pointing to an integer field that holds an integer.  This can 
either be considered "pass address of field by value" or "pass reference to 
field".

The fun2 function takes two "value" parameters.  That is, a copy of a tester 
structure and a copy of an integer.

The "main" function, less prologue and epilog is as follows (with some comments 
from me interspersed).

***   tester testr_s = {'a', 1, "this is a test"};
 MVI   84(13),129
 LA15,1(0,0)   ; 1
 ST15,88(0,13)
 L 15,@lit_213_1
 MVC   92(15,13),0(15)
* setting 3 bytes to 0x00
 XC85(3,13),85(13)
* setting 65 bytes to 0x00
 XC107(65,13),107(13)

* ***   int maxlen = sizeof(testr_s.s);
 LA2,80(0,0)   ; 80

* ***   int currlen = strnlen(testr_s, maxlen);
 MVC   176(88,13),84(13)
 ST2,264(0,13)
 LA1,176(0,13)
 L 15,@lit_213_3 ; strnlen
 BALR  14,15
 ST15,80(0,13) ; currlen

* ***   fun1(_s, );
 LA15,84(0,13)   load r15 from address of testr_s
 ST15,176(0,13)  store r15 (address of testr_s) to @a2
 LA15,80(0,13)   load r15 from address of currlen
 ST15,180(0,13)  store r15 to @a2
 LA1,176(0,13)   load r1 with address of parameter list

temp field (parameter list) for call to fun1
|...|...
|@a1|@a2
176 180
r1 = address of parameter list

 L 15,@lit_213_4 ; fun1
 BALR  14,15


* ***   fun2(testr_s, maxlen);
 MVC   176(88,13),84(13)  copy (88 bytes) to temp field 1 from 
testr_s
 ST2,264(0,13)store value of r2 to temp field 2 (tf2)
 LA1,176(0,13)load r1 with address of temp field 1

temp field (parameter list) for call to fun2
|...|...
| temp field 1 starts here (copy of structure)  
| tf2
176 
264
r1 = address of temp field 1

 L 15,@lit_213_5 ; fun2
 BALR  14,15

* ***   return 0;
 XR15,15   ; 0

Something to note, and it's not supported by C as far as I am aware, is neither 
of these are "pass by content".  Pass by content is "pass address of a copy of 
the field".  So a copy is done, as with fun2, but the parameter list pointed to 
by R1 is not the address of the copied fields but rather the address of a 
parmeter list that contains the addresses of both copied fields.

I can't explain it any better than this, so I hope it all makes sense.

Frank Swarbrick, Principal Analyst
FirstBank - Mainframe Applications Development (COBOL)


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer 
Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2023 2:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Does this mean that,
in the cases where the argument fits within the width of the parameter
list,
PL/X passes the actual value somehow? (which IMO means: the value goes
into the parameter list).
Or does it also in these cases only rely to the interface definition
(and calls by reference)?

Sorry about that: when I was at the (oral) exam for my computer science
grade, I only got "good"
and not "very good"; my prof told me that's because I'm a technician and
not a scientist;
I'm always focused on the implementation too much :-) my bad ... but
that doesn't change any more
after 40 years.

I would like to compare this to C, because IMO, in C, it is up to the
programmer to decide
if he or she wants larger parameters to be copied in the call by value
case or if they should be
passed by reference for performance reasons.

BTW: you are using C for z/OS development, too, as I am told. Would you
tell us if you use C with
the standard C linkage or with something like #pragma linkage (...,OS)?

Thank you, kind regards

Bernd


Am 01.

Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 
It just came to my mind that for C programmers I have to add the 
following remark:


it is not easy to pass arrays (vectors) by value in C, in contrast to - 
for example - Pascal.
Because in C the name of a vector is equivalent to the address of the 
element of its element zero,
this means that, if you pass a vector in C, you pass THE ADDRESS of the 
first element of the vector,

which in fact implies call by reference.

So, to get a "real" call by value for a vector in C, you have to enclose 
the vector in a struct definition,

because structs are "really" passed by value.

Something like this:

typedef struct
{
   int x [100];
}
int_vector;

void call_by_value_example (int_vector v)
{
}

int main (void)
{
   int_vector a;
   call_by_value_example (a);   // a is copied during call
}

In Pascal, there is no need to do such "struct embedding"; Pascal arrays 
will be passed by value,
if you specify the array name as a parameter (and if the function 
prototype specifies call by value;
in Pascal this is controlled by the VAR keyword ... with VAR: call by 
reference; without VAR: call by value).
And: Pascal doesn't have a rule similar to C, that the array name is the 
address of the first element;

an array is an array in Pascal and nothing else.

I mixed this up when I talked about copies of large structures during 
call by value (in C).
(I'm the maintainer of New Stanford Pascal, BTW - New Stanford Pascal 
has a CONST keyword
on parameters, too, which means: copy and call by reference, much the 
same as dummy arguments

in PL/1 or - as I learned recently - CALL BY CONTENT in COBOL).

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 02.04.2023 um 16:41 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

Am 02.04.2023 um 16:29 schrieb Seymour J Metz:
Regardless of the implementation, call by reference is about more 
than efficiency; sometimes a subroutine is required to alter one of 
its parameters, and call by value doesn't allow that.



That's well known;
most C textbooks tell that call by value is impractical for large 
structures or arrays
because of the copy involved; that's why for performance reasons often 
pointers are passed,

although no modification of the parameters passed is desired or required.
That's what I referred to.

Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Am 02.04.2023 um 16:29 schrieb Seymour J Metz:

Regardless of the implementation, call by reference is about more than 
efficiency; sometimes a subroutine is required to alter one of its parameters, 
and call by value doesn't allow that.


That's well known;
most C textbooks tell that call by value is impractical for large 
structures or arrays
because of the copy involved; that's why for performance reasons often 
pointers are passed,

although no modification of the parameters passed is desired or required.
That's what I referred to.

Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Seymour J Metz 
Regardless of the implementation, call by reference is about more than 
efficiency; sometimes a subroutine is required to alter one of its parameters, 
and call by value doesn't allow that.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer [bernd.oppol...@t-online.de]
Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2023 4:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Does this mean that,
in the cases where the argument fits within the width of the parameter
list,
PL/X passes the actual value somehow? (which IMO means: the value goes
into the parameter list).
Or does it also in these cases only rely to the interface definition
(and calls by reference)?

Sorry about that: when I was at the (oral) exam for my computer science
grade, I only got "good"
and not "very good"; my prof told me that's because I'm a technician and
not a scientist;
I'm always focused on the implementation too much :-) my bad ... but
that doesn't change any more
after 40 years.

I would like to compare this to C, because IMO, in C, it is up to the
programmer to decide
if he or she wants larger parameters to be copied in the call by value
case or if they should be
passed by reference for performance reasons.

BTW: you are using C for z/OS development, too, as I am told. Would you
tell us if you use C with
the standard C linkage or with something like #pragma linkage (...,OS)?

Thank you, kind regards

Bernd


Am 01.04.2023 um 15:34 schrieb Peter Relson:
> I was taught long ago that "call by value" meant simply that whatever the 
> target routine did to a parameter was not reflected back to the caller's 
> argument. There are multiple possible implementations. One is to make a copy 
> and pass the argument by reference to the copy. Another is to pass the actual 
> value (somewhere, somehow).
>
> For what it's worth, the internal PL/X that much of z/OS is written in only 
> supports call by value for the cases where the argument fits within the 
> "width" of a parameter list entry (by convention, 4-bytes for an AMODE 31 
> call, 8-bytes for an AMODE 64 call). PL/X's "call by value" never copies 
> (accompanied by passing the copy by reference). We have many places where our 
> dynamic storage is strictly limited such that "copy" is often not a 
> possibility. So what happens if you have something larger than fits but don't 
> want it changed? Too bad.  Or make your own copy. The interface definition 
> shared by the source and target identifies whether the parameter is to be 
> treated as input-only or not. It is up to the compiler to help identify 
> places where the target code writes into something that is input-only and 
> passed by reference.
>
>

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-02 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Does this mean that,
in the cases where the argument fits within the width of the parameter 
list,
PL/X passes the actual value somehow? (which IMO means: the value goes 
into the parameter list).
Or does it also in these cases only rely to the interface definition 
(and calls by reference)?


Sorry about that: when I was at the (oral) exam for my computer science 
grade, I only got "good"
and not "very good"; my prof told me that's because I'm a technician and 
not a scientist;
I'm always focused on the implementation too much :-) my bad ... but 
that doesn't change any more

after 40 years.

I would like to compare this to C, because IMO, in C, it is up to the 
programmer to decide
if he or she wants larger parameters to be copied in the call by value 
case or if they should be

passed by reference for performance reasons.

BTW: you are using C for z/OS development, too, as I am told. Would you 
tell us if you use C with

the standard C linkage or with something like #pragma linkage (...,OS)?

Thank you, kind regards

Bernd


Am 01.04.2023 um 15:34 schrieb Peter Relson:

I was taught long ago that "call by value" meant simply that whatever the 
target routine did to a parameter was not reflected back to the caller's argument. There 
are multiple possible implementations. One is to make a copy and pass the argument by 
reference to the copy. Another is to pass the actual value (somewhere, somehow).

For what it's worth, the internal PL/X that much of z/OS is written in only supports call by value for the 
cases where the argument fits within the "width" of a parameter list entry (by convention, 4-bytes 
for an AMODE 31 call, 8-bytes for an AMODE 64 call). PL/X's "call by value" never copies 
(accompanied by passing the copy by reference). We have many places where our dynamic storage is strictly 
limited such that "copy" is often not a possibility. So what happens if you have something larger 
than fits but don't want it changed? Too bad.  Or make your own copy. The interface definition shared by the 
source and target identifies whether the parameter is to be treated as input-only or not. It is up to the 
compiler to help identify places where the target code writes into something that is input-only and passed by 
reference.




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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-01 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 13:34:02 +, Peter Relson wrote:

>... One is to make a copy and pass the argument by reference to the copy. 
> Another is to pass the actual value (somewhere, somehow).
>
??? "somehow".  The mechanism of passing an "actual value" distinct
from a copy is left as an exercise for the student's imagination.

>...  Or make your own copy.
>
A third option for languages providing a syntactic distinction between 
"reference"
and "value" is that the caller could pass a reference and entry code in the 
called
routine could transparently make a copy.  This should provide "value" semantics,
except for a few race conditions, with the advantage that the code to copy 
exists
once in the entry rather than at each point of call.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-04-01 Thread Peter Relson 
I was taught long ago that "call by value" meant simply that whatever the 
target routine did to a parameter was not reflected back to the caller's 
argument. There are multiple possible implementations. One is to make a copy 
and pass the argument by reference to the copy. Another is to pass the actual 
value (somewhere, somehow).

For what it's worth, the internal PL/X that much of z/OS is written in only 
supports call by value for the cases where the argument fits within the "width" 
of a parameter list entry (by convention, 4-bytes for an AMODE 31 call, 8-bytes 
for an AMODE 64 call). PL/X's "call by value" never copies (accompanied by 
passing the copy by reference). We have many places where our dynamic storage 
is strictly limited such that "copy" is often not a possibility. So what 
happens if you have something larger than fits but don't want it changed? Too 
bad.  Or make your own copy. The interface definition shared by the source and 
target identifies whether the parameter is to be treated as input-only or not. 
It is up to the compiler to help identify places where the target code writes 
into something that is input-only and passed by reference.

That does not make this implementation "good" or "bad". Probably it's "good" in 
some ways, "bad" in others. It is what it is.

An interesting facet of this comes when passing an ALET (so that your argument 
can be addressed by its address and its ALET). In effect, the ALET really has 
to be passed not by reference in any way because otherwise you would have no 
way of identifying how to access the ALET and would have to have some 
rule/restriction about where that could live (maybe you can live with such a 
restriction, perhaps that the ALET must be in the primary address space; maybe 
you can't). So you pass the ALET by placing it in a parameter list slot where 
it is accessible according to the rules of how to access the parameter list 
(generally R1 and, if in AR mode, AR1). In some cases you can consider the 
"ALET and address" as occupying two slots in the parameter list, but in others 
you might want to take advantage of passing "one ALET" with the "knowledge" 
(AKA restriction) that multiple parameters are in the space identified by that 
single ALET . In restrictive cases you can pass something byvalue in a register 
(but that does not scale well).

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 01:42:20 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
>
>Am 31.03.2023 um 01:23 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:
>>>
>> Hmmm.  In 
>> 
>> ...
>This @PRINTF4 cannot be the same as normal PRINTF;
>it must be a glue function or similar to allow an ASSEMBLER function to
>call normal PRINTF.
>
That comes fron:
z/OS 2.5  XL C/C++ Programming Guide  (SC14-7315-50)

Figure 52. Calling an intermediate XL C/C++ function
from Assembler using OS linkage

Yes, "intermediate" isa key word; akin to your "glue".
And printf is a particular challenge because it supports
a variable-length list of parameters of mixed types.
A moore general approach might be an assembler macro
that takes a list of (type,value) pairs ahd builds the
static reg1 PL.

A typical call might look like:
LABELCCALL X(fprintf),(FILE*,stdout),(char*,FMTSTR),(long,INTVAL),..,
(punctuation is left as an exercise for the student,
who knows HLASM and C better than I)

Perhaps such a macro already exists; perhaps on CBTTAPE.ORG.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread David Crayford 

On 31/3/23 05:39, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
What code does the compiler generate when a long scalar such as 
_Decimal128 is

passed by value?


The C compiler - at least - puts the long scalar in the reg1 list 
where it uses more than 4 bytes.
"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not 
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means, 
that values

and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.
Maybe that's the case for legacy C programs but it certainly isn't for 
XPLINK which uses a completely different linkage convention. As the 
majority of our code is 64-bit XPLINK is mandatory.


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Am 31.03.2023 um 02:12 schrieb Frank Swarbrick:

Because of the linkage pragma that specifies "OS" I imagine that, although the C code is 
defined as "pass by value", the OS linkage overrides it to be passed by reference.  Just 
a guess; I don't have a C compiler.


this is true ... see my other post.

This means that _printf4 cannot by called by a "normal" C program,
if this #pragma linkage(...,OS) is not present at the caller's side

Maybe others have other impressions about the C implementation,
because they regularly use this #pragma linkage or because they use a 
startup macro

which does it under the cover. We don't ...

I saw the "by value" behaviour which I described in detail, when I 
looked almost every day
at dumps of C programs in the 1990s. It was crucial when debugging C 
programs on the mainframe
at that time to be able to read the parameters which are passed between 
C functions ... and there
were lots of functions passing there parameters by value. Internal C 
functions, but they produced
normal save area chains, and it was no problem to walk thru the chains 
and find the parameters

at every call level ...

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
Take a closer look.  "@PRINTF4", rather than "printf", is being called by the 
CALLPRTF assembler module.  ("Figure 2. Calling an intermediate C function from 
Assembler OS linkage")

@PRINTF4 (actual name _printf4) is defined later on that page:

/* this example demonstrates C/Assembler ILC */
/* part 3 of 3 (other files are CCNGCA2, CCNGCA4) */
/***\
 * This routine is an interface between assembler code  *
 * and the C/C++ library function printf(). *
 * OS linkage will not tolerate C-style variable length *
 * parameter lists, so this routine is specific to a*
 * formatting string and a single 4-byte substitution   *
 * parameter.  It's specified as an int here.   *
 * This object wil be named @PRINTF4.   *
/***/

#pragma linkage(_printf4,OS) /*function will be called from assembler*/

#include 

#pragma map(_printf4,“@PRINTF4”)

int _printf4(char *str,int i) {

   return printf(str,i);   /* call runtime library function */

}

Because of the linkage pragma that specifies "OS" I imagine that, although the 
C code is defined as "pass by value", the OS linkage overrides it to be passed 
by reference.  Just a guess; I don't have a C compiler.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin <042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 5:23 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 23:39:30 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
>
>"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
>addressed.
>With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
>that values
>and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.
>
What happens if there are more value parameters than the total capacity of 
registers?
(But do I misunderstand?  Is the "reg1 parameter list" not actual registers but 
the
storage addressed by GR1 in the CALL macrlo?  If so, it's no practical limit.)


>see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can
>be negative integers
>(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention cannot
>be used by C callers
>
Hmmm.  In 
<https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=programs-calling-c-code-from-assembler-c-example>
I see:
 EDCPRLG
 LA1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
 L 15,=V(@PRINTF4) address of routine
 BALR  14,15   call @PRINTF4
 EDCEPIL
ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)parameter address block with..
 DC   A(X'8000'+INTVAL)..high bit on the last address
*   ...
INTVAL   DC   F'222'The integer value displayed
*
Isn't the "X'8000'" setting the VL bit?
(I note that's a CD not an EQU.  But the reg1 PL contains an address not a 
value.)

Again, either the caller or the called routine could be able
to convert addresses to values.

--
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

BTW:

this comment and the pragma

|#pragma linkage(_printf4,OS) /*function will be called from assembler|

seems sort of ill-fated to me.

At my old customer's site (which is again my customer since 2021), we 
always had the paradigm
that every module must be able to call every other module, no matter 
what the programming language is,

and the calling module needs not know the language of the module called.

We support PL/1, C and ASSEMBLER.

The interfaces (parameter structures) are defined in a language 
independent way in a global repository,
and macros usable in the three languages are derived automatically from 
this repository. There are
more things to tell like interface version control; automatic 
up-levelling, if versions of interfaces at call time
don't match etc. ... and test tools which support isolated component 
tests, where the test cases are also built

starting from the interface definitions etc. etc.

This said, call by value in C is - at this customer's site - only 
allowed for local functions,
but not when calling external modules (which may be in C, PL/1 or 
ASSEMBLER).
In the second case, only call by reference (that is: pointer to 
structures) is possible,

because that works in all three languages.

Of course, it is kind of hard, if a 3rd party software supplier wants to 
get his software introduced
in this environment ... but it's possible, anyway. Several suppliers did 
it successfully, after we explained them,

what to do (with our help, of course).

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 31.03.2023 um 01:54 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:


The function @PRINTF4 is also shown in the IBM example:

|/* this example demonstrates C/Assembler ILC */ /* part 3 of 3 (other 
files are CCNGCA2, CCNGCA4) */ 
/***\ * This 
routine is an interface between assembler code * * and the C/C++ 
library function printf(). * * OS linkage will not tolerate C-style 
variable length * * parameter lists, so this routine is specific to a 
* * formatting string and a single 4-byte substitution * * parameter. 
It's specified as an int here. * * This object wil be named @PRINTF4. 
* /***/ #pragma 
linkage(_printf4,OS) /*function will be called from assembler*/ 
#include  #pragma map(_printf4,“@PRINTF4”) int _printf4(char 
*str,int i) { return printf(str,i); /* call runtime library function */ }|



what you see here is the special behaviour because of the #pragma 
linkage(...,OS) ..

this is NOT the standard behaviour of C.

The parameter int i is passed BY ADDR in this case ...
with the #pragma you can override nomal C "by value" behaviour (which 
means,
that the function cannot be called by "normal" C, which doesn't know 
about

this #pragma).

We never allowed the use of #pragma linkage at our site ... that's why 
we had to
build the glue functions to support the 3rd party package in the 
1990s. (Or, IIRC,

we asked the supplier of the software to do this for money).

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 31.03.2023 um 01:42 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

See answers below

Am 31.03.2023 um 01:23 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 23:39:30 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
that values
and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.

What happens if there are more value parameters than the total 
capacity of registers?
(But do I misunderstand?  Is the "reg1 parameter list" not actual 
registers but the
storage addressed by GR1 in the CALL macrlo?  If so, it's no 
practical limit.)


reg1 parameter list is the address list which register 1 points to.
So there is no practical limit on the size of the parameter list.

Of course, it is impractical to pass large structures or arrays by 
value,

but that's what every C tutorial will tell you ...



see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" 
can

be negative integers
(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention 
cannot

be used by C callers

Hmmm.  In 


I see:
  EDCPRLG
  LA    1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
  L 15,=V(@PRINTF4) address of routine
  BALR  14,15   call @PRINTF4
  EDCEPIL
ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)    parameter address block with..
  DC   A(X'8000'+INTVAL)    ..high bit on the last address
*   ...
INTVAL   DC   F'222'    The integer value displayed
*
Isn't the "X'8000'" setting the VL bit?
(I note that's a CD not an EQU.  But the reg1 PL contains an address 
not a value.)


Again, either the caller or the called routine could be able
to convert addresses to values.


This @PRINTF4 cannot be the same as normal PRINTF;
it must be a glue function or similar to allow

Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
I just want to confirm that your understanding below is also my understanding.  
I'm not sure what others think call by value is, but I don't believe it matches 
with what C means when the term "call by value" is used.  Or COBOL or PL/I, for 
that matter.

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer 
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2023 3:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Am 30.03.2023 um 21:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:
> What code does the compiler generate when a long scalar such as
> _Decimal128 is
> passed by value?

The C compiler - at least - puts the long scalar in the reg1 list where
it uses more than 4 bytes.
"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
that values
and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.

> Of course, the compiler can be guided by function prologues and rely on the 
> function
> to copy from a passed address to automatic storage.
>
> Does C use the CALL VL convention?

see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can
be negative integers
(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention cannot
be used by C callers
or C routines being called. The VL convention is not present in the more
"modern"
calling conventions like 64-bit parameter passing and XPLINK - maybe for
this reason.

The original z/OS linkage convention, honestly, restricts the parameter
passing mechanism to
call by reference. That's why it was changed - or enhanced - in the last
(20) years. In the 1960s
and 1970s, when z/OS linkage was first defined, there was only PL/1 and
Fortran (and COBOL,
of course), and they all had call by reference.

HTH, kind regards

Bernd

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

The function @PRINTF4 is also shown in the IBM example:

|/* this example demonstrates C/Assembler ILC */ /* part 3 of 3 (other 
files are CCNGCA2, CCNGCA4) */ 
/***\ * This routine 
is an interface between assembler code * * and the C/C++ library 
function printf(). * * OS linkage will not tolerate C-style variable 
length * * parameter lists, so this routine is specific to a * * 
formatting string and a single 4-byte substitution * * parameter. It's 
specified as an int here. * * This object wil be named @PRINTF4. * 
/***/ #pragma 
linkage(_printf4,OS) /*function will be called from assembler*/ #include 
 #pragma map(_printf4,“@PRINTF4”) int _printf4(char *str,int i) 
{ return printf(str,i); /* call runtime library function */ }|



what you see here is the special behaviour because of the #pragma 
linkage(...,OS) ..

this is NOT the standard behaviour of C.

The parameter int i is passed BY ADDR in this case ...
with the #pragma you can override nomal C "by value" behaviour (which 
means,

that the function cannot be called by "normal" C, which doesn't know about
this #pragma).

We never allowed the use of #pragma linkage at our site ... that's why 
we had to
build the glue functions to support the 3rd party package in the 1990s. 
(Or, IIRC,

we asked the supplier of the software to do this for money).

Kind regards

Bernd



Am 31.03.2023 um 01:42 schrieb Bernd Oppolzer:

See answers below

Am 31.03.2023 um 01:23 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 23:39:30 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
that values
and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.

What happens if there are more value parameters than the total 
capacity of registers?
(But do I misunderstand?  Is the "reg1 parameter list" not actual 
registers but the
storage addressed by GR1 in the CALL macrlo?  If so, it's no 
practical limit.)


reg1 parameter list is the address list which register 1 points to.
So there is no practical limit on the size of the parameter list.

Of course, it is impractical to pass large structures or arrays by value,
but that's what every C tutorial will tell you ...




see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can
be negative integers
(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention 
cannot

be used by C callers

Hmmm.  In 


I see:
  EDCPRLG
  LA    1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
  L 15,=V(@PRINTF4) address of routine
  BALR  14,15   call @PRINTF4
  EDCEPIL
ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)    parameter address block with..
  DC   A(X'8000'+INTVAL)    ..high bit on the last address
*   ...
INTVAL   DC   F'222'    The integer value displayed
*
Isn't the "X'8000'" setting the VL bit?
(I note that's a CD not an EQU.  But the reg1 PL contains an address 
not a value.)


Again, either the caller or the called routine could be able
to convert addresses to values.


This @PRINTF4 cannot be the same as normal PRINTF;
it must be a glue function or similar to allow an ASSEMBLER function 
to call normal PRINTF.


(only guessing, because the FMTSTR is not shown here).

If normal PRINTF is called, the sequence should look like this:

 LA    1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
 L 15,=V(PRINTF)   address of routine
 BALR  14,15   call normal PRINTF

...

ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)    parameter address block with..
 DC   F(222)
FMTSTR   DC   C'output of integer %d using printf'
 DC   X'00'

As you can see, because the integer value can be positive or negative,
there is no way to mark the last parameter with the leftmost bit.

Old story from my old customer:

sometime we had to introduce 3rd party software (written in C) which 
had to be
called from PL/1 routines. PL/1 at that time only had call by 
reference, but the
routines of the 3rd party software used call by value in their 
interfaces or APIs.


We had to provide so-called "glue functions" for every function of the 
3rd party
software, that had a call by value parameter ... the call by value 
parameter

was a reference-parameter in "our" interface, callable by PL/1, and then
the glue function called the 3rd party function, using the by-value 
interface.


This was in the 1990s ... today BYVALUE is supported by native PL/1.

Maybe the same is going on here with that @PRINTF4 interface ??

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

See answers below

Am 31.03.2023 um 01:23 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 23:39:30 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
that values
and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.


What happens if there are more value parameters than the total capacity of 
registers?
(But do I misunderstand?  Is the "reg1 parameter list" not actual registers but 
the
storage addressed by GR1 in the CALL macrlo?  If so, it's no practical limit.)


reg1 parameter list is the address list which register 1 points to.
So there is no practical limit on the size of the parameter list.

Of course, it is impractical to pass large structures or arrays by value,
but that's what every C tutorial will tell you ...




see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can
be negative integers
(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention cannot
be used by C callers


Hmmm.  In 

I see:
  EDCPRLG
  LA1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
  L 15,=V(@PRINTF4) address of routine
  BALR  14,15   call @PRINTF4
  EDCEPIL
ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)parameter address block with..
  DC   A(X'8000'+INTVAL)..high bit on the last address
*   ...
INTVAL   DC   F'222'The integer value displayed
*
Isn't the "X'8000'" setting the VL bit?
(I note that's a CD not an EQU.  But the reg1 PL contains an address not a 
value.)

Again, either the caller or the called routine could be able
to convert addresses to values.


This @PRINTF4 cannot be the same as normal PRINTF;
it must be a glue function or similar to allow an ASSEMBLER function to 
call normal PRINTF.


(only guessing, because the FMTSTR is not shown here).

If normal PRINTF is called, the sequence should look like this:

 LA1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
 L 15,=V(PRINTF)   address of routine
 BALR  14,15   call normal PRINTF

...

ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)parameter address block with..
 DC   F(222)
FMTSTR   DC   C'output of integer %d using printf'
 DC   X'00'

As you can see, because the integer value can be positive or negative,
there is no way to mark the last parameter with the leftmost bit.

Old story from my old customer:

sometime we had to introduce 3rd party software (written in C) which had to be
called from PL/1 routines. PL/1 at that time only had call by reference, but the
routines of the 3rd party software used call by value in their interfaces or 
APIs.

We had to provide so-called "glue functions" for every function of the 3rd party
software, that had a call by value parameter ... the call by value parameter
was a reference-parameter in "our" interface, callable by PL/1, and then
the glue function called the 3rd party function, using the by-value interface.

This was in the 1990s ... today BYVALUE is supported by native PL/1.

Maybe the same is going on here with that @PRINTF4 interface ??

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 23:39:30 +0200, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
>
>"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not
>addressed.
>With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means,
>that values
>and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.
> 
What happens if there are more value parameters than the total capacity of 
registers?
(But do I misunderstand?  Is the "reg1 parameter list" not actual registers but 
the
storage addressed by GR1 in the CALL macrlo?  If so, it's no practical limit.)


>see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can
>be negative integers
>(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention cannot
>be used by C callers
>
Hmmm.  In 

I see:
 EDCPRLG
 LA1,ADDR_BLK  parameter address block in r1
 L 15,=V(@PRINTF4) address of routine
 BALR  14,15   call @PRINTF4
 EDCEPIL
ADDR_BLK DC   A(FMTSTR)parameter address block with..
 DC   A(X'8000'+INTVAL)..high bit on the last address
*   ...
INTVAL   DC   F'222'The integer value displayed
*
Isn't the "X'8000'" setting the VL bit?
(I note that's a CD not an EQU.  But the reg1 PL contains an address not a 
value.)

Again, either the caller or the called routine could be able
to convert addresses to values.

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Am 30.03.2023 um 21:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:

Does C use the CALL VL convention?


C has a portable solution for functions with a varying number of 
parameters,

that is the mechanism defined in the ANSI header 

Most interesting, these sort of functions - like printf() and scanf() -
need to have a certain count of fixed parameters, which by there form 
and content

define the varying number of parameters which follow.

There is no need AND NO POSSIBILITY (on the mainframe, at least) to mark 
the last parameter
in a certain way. And: the language definition doesn't say anything 
about an end mark of
the parameter list; it only tells that the first (fixed) parameters must 
tell the function

how much parameters follow.

See printf as the best known example.

Other (simpler) functions may simply require the number of parameters as 
first parameter,

for example:

look_for_maximum (5, "John", "Fred", "Jim", "Henry", "Mike");

where 5 is number of strings, which follow.

HTH, kind regards

Bernd

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Bernd Oppolzer 

Am 30.03.2023 um 21:32 schrieb Paul Gilmartin:
What code does the compiler generate when a long scalar such as 
_Decimal128 is

passed by value?


The C compiler - at least - puts the long scalar in the reg1 list where 
it uses more than 4 bytes.
"call by value" in my understanding means, that values are passed, not 
addressed.
With the mainframe (or z/OS and CMS) linkage convention, this means, 
that values

and not addresses are in the reg1 parameter list.


Of course, the compiler can be guided by function prologues and rely on the 
function
to copy from a passed address to automatic storage.

Does C use the CALL VL convention?


see above. Because the values entered into the reg1 list "by value" can 
be negative integers
(or other types, which need more that 4 bytes), the VL convention cannot 
be used by C callers
or C routines being called. The VL convention is not present in the more 
"modern"
calling conventions like 64-bit parameter passing and XPLINK - maybe for 
this reason.


The original z/OS linkage convention, honestly, restricts the parameter 
passing mechanism to
call by reference. That's why it was changed - or enhanced - in the last 
(20) years. In the 1960s
and 1970s, when z/OS linkage was first defined, there was only PL/1 and 
Fortran (and COBOL,

of course), and they all had call by reference.

HTH, kind regards

Bernd

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-30 Thread Bob Bridges 
Ok, I'll bite:  What's the difference between the ANY and OTHER conditions?

Oh, wait, cool!  Does the ANY condition execute even any of the above 
conditions evaluate as true?

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, 
to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one 
day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to 
worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, 
only in a nightmare.  All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other 
to one of these destinations.  -C S Lewis, quoted in "In His Image" by Dr Paul 
Brand and Phillip Yancey */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Wayne Bickerdike
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 23:40

I also like CA-IDEAL. A little bit PL/I like with a nice SELECT statement:

  SELECT TRANS_CODE
WHEN 'A'
  DO ADD_RECORD_PROC
WHEN 'D'
  DO DEL_RECORD_PROC
WHEN 'P'
  DO PURCHASE_PROC
WHEN 'R'
  DO RECEIPT_PROC
WHEN ANY
  DO LOG_TRANS
WHEN OTHER
  DO INVALID_CODE
ENDSEL

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 16:09:43 +, Frank Swarbrick  wrote:

>Perhaps the "weird way" could be documented as an appropriate way to pass 
>arguments by value instead of the standard by reference.  Then it would no 
>longer be weird!
>
What code does the compiler generate when a long scalar such as _Decimal128 is 
passed by value?

Of course, the compiler can be guided by function prologues and rely on the 
function
to copy from a passed address to automatic storage.

Does C use the CALL VL convention?

>On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:53 PM Frank Swaririck wrote:
>>
>> *EXAMPLE 1 (MY WEIRD WAY):
>>  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3')
>> *...
>> *EXAMPLE 3 (LOAD REGISTER (2) WITH VALUE,
>> *THEN CALL WITH THAT REGISTER AS THE ARGUMENT:
>>  LHI   2,3
>>  CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)

-- 
gil

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Joel C. Ewing 
But aren't both Example 1 & 2 still passing the address of literal =F'3' 
to the called routine, a literal that is only set at assembly time?   If 
there is a bug in the called routine that allows it to store a value 
back at that address at run time, it actually changes the value in the 
literal pool of the calling program, and the next time that call is 
executed the value may no longer be "3".  What's worse, if =F'3' is used 
in another totally different context in the calling program, it is 
probably using the same fullword "constant" in the literal pool and no 
longer getting a value of "3" there either.  The "CALL  MF=(E,...)" 
dynamically builds the list of parameter addresses, but it does not 
re-initialize any literal constants referenced by that list.  A literal 
like =F'3' is just shorthand for the-address-of a DC F'3' created out of 
line by the Assembler.  It implies there is no intent to store a 
different value there, but unless the program is running from read-only 
storage, the hardware doesn't prevent overwriting with a different value 
if you use the address of =F'3' as the target of a move or store.   A 
program that overwrites a literal at run time can be very difficult to 
debug, because what you see in the listings is misleading.


To be a functional "call by value" there needs to be a temporary 
fullword copy of the =F'3' constant made just before the call and that, 
or its address, passed on the call.  That temporary fullword can't be 
used in any other context in the calling program unless it's value is 
also set-before-use in that context as well.


That's not to say technique in Example 1 or 2 can't be used when you are 
certain that called subroutine does not return a value to that 
parameter, just don't be fooled by the =F'3' notation into thinking this 
represents a constant that can't be altered by the CALLed program and 
that this somehow becomes a call-by-value that prevents the called 
routine from overwriting the value.  Literals are created and 
initialized once at assembly time, not dynamically at execution time.


Example 3 would be a true "call by value", since the value "3" is 
rebuilt in storage for each call, and if that fullword is modified by 
the called routine it can have no side effects back in the calling 
routine.  That the CALL is passing an integer in a context where 
standard linkage conventions would expect a pointer to the integer is 
not an issue as long as the called routine expects that usage.


    Joel C Ewing

On 3/30/23 11:09, Frank Swarbrick wrote:

Perhaps the "weird way" could be documented as an appropriate way to pass 
arguments by value instead of the standard by reference.  Then it would no longer be 
weird!

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Steve 
Smith 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Good job.  You could have a future as an assembler programmer, because you
pay attention to the details.

Your weird way is interesting because it is correct, but... it is not
idiomatic.  So it will freak out most assembler programmers.  That's often
not a good thing, but often is not always.

sas

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:53 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:


OK, the following three examples all seem to work.  I dare say you are
correct about example 1 being unexpected usage of the execute mode.  I only
came up with it my looking at an example that wasn’t working and seeing
that putting my value there directly made it work.  But it wasn’t meant to
be an example of good coding.

*
CALL1CALL ,(,),MF=L
*
ISCICS#  CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
*
*SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCb
*WITH “VALUE” OF FULLWORD 3.
*
*EXAMPLE 1 (MY WEIRD WAY):
  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3')
*
*EXAMPLE 2 (LOAD R1 DIRECTLY WITH ADDRESS OF AREA
*CONTAINING 3, THEN JUST CALL):
  LA1,=F'3'
  CALL  @@GETCB
*
*EXAMPLE 3 (LOAD REGISTER (2) WITH VALUE,
*THEN CALL WITH THAT REGISTER AS THE ARGUMENT:
  LHI   2,3
  CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
*
  CEETERM RC=(15)
*
PPA  CEEPPA
  CEEDSA ,
  CEECAA ,
  END   ISCICS#

I should note that I am not a systems programmer, or even an “assembler
programmer”.  I am a COBOL programmer who dabbles in assembler
occasionally.  So I am bound to get a lot of things wrong.

I think I’ll do with #2, since that generates the least amount of code and
is still fairly simple to read.

As for why I used X'100020003’ instead of F'1,2,3' in
another example, it’s because I didn’t know of the availability of using
“comma separated fullword” literals.



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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-30 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
Perhaps the "weird way" could be documented as an appropriate way to pass 
arguments by value instead of the standard by reference.  Then it would no 
longer be weird!

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Smith 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:16 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Good job.  You could have a future as an assembler programmer, because you
pay attention to the details.

Your weird way is interesting because it is correct, but... it is not
idiomatic.  So it will freak out most assembler programmers.  That's often
not a good thing, but often is not always.

sas

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:53 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:

> OK, the following three examples all seem to work.  I dare say you are
> correct about example 1 being unexpected usage of the execute mode.  I only
> came up with it my looking at an example that wasn’t working and seeing
> that putting my value there directly made it work.  But it wasn’t meant to
> be an example of good coding.
>
> *
> CALL1CALL ,(,),MF=L
> *
> ISCICS#  CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
> *
> *SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCb
> *WITH “VALUE” OF FULLWORD 3.
> *
> *EXAMPLE 1 (MY WEIRD WAY):
>  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3')
> *
> *EXAMPLE 2 (LOAD R1 DIRECTLY WITH ADDRESS OF AREA
> *CONTAINING 3, THEN JUST CALL):
>  LA1,=F'3'
>  CALL  @@GETCB
> *
> *EXAMPLE 3 (LOAD REGISTER (2) WITH VALUE,
> *THEN CALL WITH THAT REGISTER AS THE ARGUMENT:
>  LHI   2,3
>  CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
> *
>  CEETERM RC=(15)
> *
> PPA  CEEPPA
>  CEEDSA ,
>  CEECAA ,
>  END   ISCICS#
>
> I should note that I am not a systems programmer, or even an “assembler
> programmer”.  I am a COBOL programmer who dabbles in assembler
> occasionally.  So I am bound to get a lot of things wrong.
>
> I think I’ll do with #2, since that generates the least amount of code and
> is still fairly simple to read.
>
> As for why I used X'100020003’ instead of F'1,2,3' in
> another example, it’s because I didn’t know of the availability of using
> “comma separated fullword” literals.
>
>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Wayne Bickerdike 
I also like CA-IDEAL. A little bit PL/I like with a nice SELECT statement:

Example:

SELECT TRANS_CODE

WHEN 'A'

DO ADD_RECORD_PROC

WHEN 'D'

DO DEL_RECORD_PROC

WHEN 'P'

 DO PURCHASE_PROC

WHEN 'R'

DO RECEIPT_PROC

WHEN ANY

DO LOG_TRANS

WHEN OTHER

DO INVALID_CODE

ENDSEL




On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 11:23 AM Jeremy Nicoll <
jn.ls.mfrm...@letterboxes.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 14:01, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
>
> > Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> > the danglig ELSE!
>
> An ALGOL variant (S-ALGOL) that I used at university differentiated
> between, IIRC,
>
>  IF ... THEN ... ELSE
>
> and
>
> IF ... DO
>
> which meant that as soon as the compiler saw THEN or DO it
> knew whether or not there should be an ELSE later on.  It was
> such a simple idea but it worked well for both programmers
> & the compiler.
>
> --
> Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-29 Thread Steve Smith 
Good job.  You could have a future as an assembler programmer, because you
pay attention to the details.

Your weird way is interesting because it is correct, but... it is not
idiomatic.  So it will freak out most assembler programmers.  That's often
not a good thing, but often is not always.

sas

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 7:53 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:

> OK, the following three examples all seem to work.  I dare say you are
> correct about example 1 being unexpected usage of the execute mode.  I only
> came up with it my looking at an example that wasn’t working and seeing
> that putting my value there directly made it work.  But it wasn’t meant to
> be an example of good coding.
>
> *
> CALL1CALL ,(,),MF=L
> *
> ISCICS#  CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
> *
> *SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCb
> *WITH “VALUE” OF FULLWORD 3.
> *
> *EXAMPLE 1 (MY WEIRD WAY):
>  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3')
> *
> *EXAMPLE 2 (LOAD R1 DIRECTLY WITH ADDRESS OF AREA
> *CONTAINING 3, THEN JUST CALL):
>  LA1,=F'3'
>  CALL  @@GETCB
> *
> *EXAMPLE 3 (LOAD REGISTER (2) WITH VALUE,
> *THEN CALL WITH THAT REGISTER AS THE ARGUMENT:
>  LHI   2,3
>  CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
> *
>  CEETERM RC=(15)
> *
> PPA  CEEPPA
>  CEEDSA ,
>  CEECAA ,
>  END   ISCICS#
>
> I should note that I am not a systems programmer, or even an “assembler
> programmer”.  I am a COBOL programmer who dabbles in assembler
> occasionally.  So I am bound to get a lot of things wrong.
>
> I think I’ll do with #2, since that generates the least amount of code and
> is still fairly simple to read.
>
> As for why I used X'100020003’ instead of F'1,2,3' in
> another example, it’s because I didn’t know of the availability of using
> “comma separated fullword” literals.
>
>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Jeremy Nicoll 
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 14:01, Paul Gilmartin wrote:

> Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
> the danglig ELSE!

An ALGOL variant (S-ALGOL) that I used at university differentiated
between, IIRC, 

 IF ... THEN ... ELSE

and 

IF ... DO

which meant that as soon as the compiler saw THEN or DO it 
knew whether or not there should be an ELSE later on.  It was
such a simple idea but it worked well for both programmers
& the compiler.

-- 
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Jeremy Nicoll 
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 05:24, David Crayford wrote:

> The 
> interviewer held out both hands, one with an open palm the other with a 
> clenched fist and asked me "what hand is the ball bearing in"?.

And did they want the "obvious" answer - the clenched fist, or did they 
want one of the more considered alternatives, eg

- does either hand actually contain a ball bearing?

- Can't tell.  If it exists, how big is the bearing?

  (if very small it could easily be held between
  two fingers of the open palm)

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread David Crayford 

On 29/3/23 22:16, Robert Prins wrote:

  On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 at 11:20, Seymour J Metz  wrote:


"You can write FORTRAN in any language."

Too be fair, much of what I take for granted in PL/I control structures
was not in the original version, and IBM rejected the original SHARE
requirement for a CASE statement.


But the SELECT statement that they added (before my time) later beats the
crap out of CASE in C & Pascal.


No argument there but it still only supports scalars. It's pretty dusty 
when compared to structural pattern matching such as Pythons match [1] 
or Kotlins when expression or similar in any modern programming language.


[1] https://peps.python.org/pep-0636/
[2] https://kotlinlang.org/docs/control-flow.html#when-expression



Robert


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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-29 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
OK, the following three examples all seem to work.  I dare say you are correct 
about example 1 being unexpected usage of the execute mode.  I only came up 
with it my looking at an example that wasn’t working and seeing that putting my 
value there directly made it work.  But it wasn’t meant to be an example of 
good coding.

*
CALL1CALL ,(,),MF=L
*
ISCICS#  CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
*
*SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCb
*WITH “VALUE” OF FULLWORD 3.
*
*EXAMPLE 1 (MY WEIRD WAY):
 CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3')
*
*EXAMPLE 2 (LOAD R1 DIRECTLY WITH ADDRESS OF AREA
*CONTAINING 3, THEN JUST CALL):
 LA1,=F'3'
 CALL  @@GETCB
*
*EXAMPLE 3 (LOAD REGISTER (2) WITH VALUE,
*THEN CALL WITH THAT REGISTER AS THE ARGUMENT:
 LHI   2,3
 CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
*
 CEETERM RC=(15)
*
PPA  CEEPPA
 CEEDSA ,
 CEECAA ,
 END   ISCICS#

I should note that I am not a systems programmer, or even an “assembler 
programmer”.  I am a COBOL programmer who dabbles in assembler occasionally.  
So I am bound to get a lot of things wrong.

I think I’ll do with #2, since that generates the least amount of code and is 
still fairly simple to read.

As for why I used X'100020003’ instead of F'1,2,3' in another 
example, it’s because I didn’t know of the availability of using “comma 
separated fullword” literals.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Smith 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 3:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

Example 1 looks as I expected, and I'd expect it to work.

You're close on Example 3, you don't want to specify MF in that case.

What you want is the call to go to the subroutine with R1->F'3'.  In Ex. 1,
R2 contains the 3, it's stored in the parmlist addressed by R1 (via MF=E).
In Ex. 3, you're doing the parmlist setup yourself, so don't code the MF
(or any parameters) and CALL will not mess with R1.

sas


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 5:02 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:

> So here is my attempt at specifying just a register
>
>
>   LHI   2,3
>   CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + ST(2),0(0,1)STORE INTO PARAM. LIST
> 02-IHBOPLTX
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> If I am not mistaken, this is still performing call by reference, not call
> by value, because it's storing the address of an address that holds the
> value of 3.
>
> What I need is it to store the address of a field holding a value of 3.
> One less level of indirection.  And that's what we have here.  CHKCICS
> contains the value of 3 and address 1 is loaded with its address.
>
>   CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CHKCICS3) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CHKCICS3LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> NOw if we just load R1 directly with the address holding the value of 3,
> then we need to do a call with no parameters passed, right?  I tried the
> following:
>
>   LA1,=F'3'
>   CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CALL1) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> I don't think that will work because it clobbers R1.
>
> I just now realized I don't want to use MF=E at all and it looks like that
> could work.  In fact, it appears to generate the same code as the second
> example (the one that works for sure), except with

Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-29 Thread Steve Smith 
Example 1 looks as I expected, and I'd expect it to work.

You're close on Example 3, you don't want to specify MF in that case.

What you want is the call to go to the subroutine with R1->F'3'.  In Ex. 1,
R2 contains the 3, it's stored in the parmlist addressed by R1 (via MF=E).
In Ex. 3, you're doing the parmlist setup yourself, so don't code the MF
(or any parameters) and CALL will not mess with R1.

sas


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 5:02 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:

> So here is my attempt at specifying just a register
>
>
>   LHI   2,3
>   CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + ST(2),0(0,1)STORE INTO PARAM. LIST
> 02-IHBOPLTX
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> If I am not mistaken, this is still performing call by reference, not call
> by value, because it's storing the address of an address that holds the
> value of 3.
>
> What I need is it to store the address of a field holding a value of 3.
> One less level of indirection.  And that's what we have here.  CHKCICS
> contains the value of 3 and address 1 is loaded with its address.
>
>   CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CHKCICS3) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CHKCICS3LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> NOw if we just load R1 directly with the address holding the value of 3,
> then we need to do a call with no parameters passed, right?  I tried the
> following:
>
>   LA1,=F'3'
>   CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CALL1) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
> + DS0H
>  01-CALL
> + LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1
>  03-IHBINNRR
> + CNOP  0,4
> 01-CALL
> + BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON
>  01-CALL
> + DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS
> 01-CALL
> + L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR
> 01-CALL
> + BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT
> 01-CALL
>
> I don't think that will work because it clobbers R1.
>
> I just now realized I don't want to use MF=E at all and it looks like that
> could work.  In fact, it appears to generate the same code as the second
> example (the one that works for sure), except without the loading of R1 at
> all, which of course I have done explicitly as you recommend.  I haven't
> tested it yet, but I have this all typed up soi I will send this and then
> respond to it with my results.
>
> Thanks,
> Frank
>
>

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Re: ASM call by value

2023-03-29 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
So here is my attempt at specifying just a register


  LHI   2,3
  CALL  @@GETCB,((2)),MF=(E,CALL1)
+ DS0H   01-CALL
+ LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1   
03-IHBINNRR
+ ST(2),0(0,1)STORE INTO PARAM. LIST 
02-IHBOPLTX
+ CNOP  0,4  01-CALL
+ BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON 01-CALL
+ DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS01-CALL
+ L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR 01-CALL
+ BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT  01-CALL

If I am not mistaken, this is still performing call by reference, not call by 
value, because it's storing the address of an address that holds the value of 3.

What I need is it to store the address of a field holding a value of 3.  One 
less level of indirection.  And that's what we have here.  CHKCICS contains the 
value of 3 and address 1 is loaded with its address.

  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CHKCICS3) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
+ DS0H   01-CALL
+ LA1,CHKCICS3LOAD PARAMETER REG 1   
03-IHBINNRR
+ CNOP  0,4  01-CALL
+ BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON 01-CALL
+ DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS01-CALL
+ L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR 01-CALL
+ BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT  01-CALL

NOw if we just load R1 directly with the address holding the value of 3, then 
we need to do a call with no parameters passed, right?  I tried the following:

  LA1,=F'3'
  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,CALL1) ...WITH VALUE FULLWORD 3
+ DS0H   01-CALL
+ LA1,CALL1   LOAD PARAMETER REG 1   
03-IHBINNRR
+ CNOP  0,4  01-CALL
+ BRAS  15,*+8BRANCH AROUND VCON 01-CALL
+ DCV(@@GETCB)ENTRY POINT ADDRESS01-CALL
+ L 15,0(15,0)LOAD 15 WITH ENTRY ADR 01-CALL
+ BALR  14,15 BRANCH TO ENTRY POINT  01-CALL

I don't think that will work because it clobbers R1.

I just now realized I don't want to use MF=E at all and it looks like that 
could work.  In fact, it appears to generate the same code as the second 
example (the one that works for sure), except without the loading of R1 at all, 
which of course I have done explicitly as you recommend.  I haven't tested it 
yet, but I have this all typed up soi I will send this and then respond to it 
with my results.

Thanks,
Frank


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Smith 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 1:40 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: ASM call by value

What does "didn't work" mean?  What did the CALL expansion look like?

The code might be clearer if you just coded LA R1,=F'3' before the CALL.
Your usage of MF=E is novel, and I'm hesitant to condemn it, but it's
non-standard.

Incidentally, why would you replace =F'1,2,3' on your second example with a
hex string?

sas

On Tue, Mar 28, 2023 at 3:17 PM Frank Swarbrick 
wrote:

> Another typo, of course.
> =X'000100030003' should be =X'000100020003'
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Frank Swarbrick 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 12:52 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: Re: ASM call by value
>
> So that didn't work.  But after a lot of fiddling about, here's what works
> for me.  I LE enabled it so it will be reentrant.
>
> ISCICS#  CEEENTRY MAIN=NO
> *SEE IF WE'RE RUNNING UNDER CICS BY CALLING @@GETCB...
>  CALL  @@GETCB,MF=(E,=F'3') ...WITH VALUE INTEGER 3
>  CEETERM RC=(15)
> *
> PPA  CEEPPA
>  CEEDSA ,
>  CEECAA ,
>  END   ISCICS#
>
> By using the execute format of the CALL macro, assuming all of the fields
> are to be passed by value, you can place them, in order, in the execute
> literal (or whatever its called that follows the 'E').
>
> So, for example, if you wanted to call like the C statement "F(1,2,3)" you
> could do:
>  CALL  F,MF=(E,=X'000100030003')
> Or, of course, you could refer do a DC group instead of using a literal.
>
> Perhaps this will help others.
>
> Frank
>
>

-

Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Frank Swarbrick 
Since COBOL 1985 (implemented with an early release of VS COBOL II) you can 
uses nested programs, which (can) have their own "local variables".

That being said, it's quite a paradigm shift for some COBOL programmers, and 
I've had pushback from them each time I've used it.  It is also just as verbose 
as any other COBOL program, which causes source code bloat if used extensively. 
 For a small procedure (nested program) there is sometimes more COBOL 
boilerplate (divisions and sections) outside of the procedure division than 
there is code inside the procedure division.

I'm not discouraging their use, nor am I necessarily encouraging it.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Bernd Oppolzer 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2023 3:01 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

With the clever use of GOTOs and the use of different variables with
strange names
for the same purpose, you can even turn a less than 1000 lines COBOL
program completely unreadable.

I see such programs almost every day.

The biggest obstacle for keeping large COBOL programs maintainable is
the lack of procedures and local variables, IMO.
Because all variables are global, it is almost impossible to structure
your program into many small independent and
separate blocks, which IMO is crucial when it comes to fighting
complexity. You need much discipline and talent,
inspired by other programming languages (in my case PL/1 - Pascal - C -
Assembler, to name a few), if you want to produce
good quality software in a shop who is COBOL only :-(

I'm doing this for more than 3 years now ... new COBOL software every
day. COBOL is not dead and will not be
for the next 10 to 20 years, at least.

Kind regards

Bernd


Am 28.03.2023 um 17:05 schrieb David Spiegel:
> Hi Bill,
> You said: "...It seems to help with maintenance and updating of large,
> complex commercial programs..."
> Back in the mid-'80s, I used to support a 3-letter software vendor's
> Payroll package.
> The source was unreadable because of the amount and size of copybooks.
> When compiled, the listing was so big that it was near impossible to
> follow.
> Needless to say, the variable and paragraph names didn't help too much.
> Have you ever tried reading a DMS for CICS (again, 40 years ago)
> generated COBOL listing?
> My point is that anything can be unreadable, including wordy COBOL.
> I used to code FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER and APL for a living (early '80s).
> These 3 can be readable if there are departmental standards in place.
>
> Caveat: I still program Rexx and given the chance would (and have)
> program(med) PL/I -- my favourite compiled language.
> (Edsger W. Dijkstra be damned. (If he had to work in a commercial (aka
> "real") environment (instead of his ivory tower), his opinion might've
> been tempered a bit.) )
>
> Regards,
> David
>

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Seymour J Metz 
Yes, I meant the latter, not the former. Sorry for the dyslexia.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Bob 
Bridges 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 12:41 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I may have misunderstood you, Shmuel, but I think you must have meant "REXX
has only the latter".  The REXX select statement looks like this:

  select
when boolexpr1 then stm
when boolexpr2 then stm
otherwise stm; end

VBA, on the other hand, has only the former:

  Select Case MyVar
Case "T": stm
Case "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

You can simulate the latter (more general) form in VBA easily enough:

  Select Case True
Case boolexpr1: stm
Case MyVar = "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have an efficient feeding technique, and within a few minutes, every
last spoonful of that glop is somewhere in Sophie's hair.  I aim for her
mouth, but she moves too fast.  Sophie will try to eat virtually any random
thing she finds on the floor, including a dead cockroach, but she draws the
line at baby food.  -Dave Barry, 2000-09-17 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:38

SELECT in PL/I has two forms: one provides a variable matched against the
various WHEN clauses and one in which each WHEN has a boolean (well, BIT(1))
expression. REXX has only the former, whichis equivalent to IF/ELSEIF/ELSE.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Bob Bridges 
I may have misunderstood you, Shmuel, but I think you must have meant "REXX
has only the latter".  The REXX select statement looks like this:

  select
when boolexpr1 then stm
when boolexpr2 then stm
otherwise stm; end

VBA, on the other hand, has only the former:

  Select Case MyVar
Case "T": stm
Case "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

You can simulate the latter (more general) form in VBA easily enough:

  Select Case True
Case boolexpr1: stm
Case MyVar = "X": stm
Case Else: stm
End Select

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I have an efficient feeding technique, and within a few minutes, every
last spoonful of that glop is somewhere in Sophie's hair.  I aim for her
mouth, but she moves too fast.  Sophie will try to eat virtually any random
thing she finds on the floor, including a dead cockroach, but she draws the
line at baby food.  -Dave Barry, 2000-09-17 */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:38

SELECT in PL/I has two forms: one provides a variable matched against the
various WHEN clauses and one in which each WHEN has a boolean (well, BIT(1))
expression. REXX has only the former, whichis equivalent to IF/ELSEIF/ELSE.

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Seymour J Metz 
> Sounds like a personal problem to me.

Or he's using a prettyprinter that can't handle it well.

> Or, you could use ELSEIF and just not indent.

PL/I has no such statement; with SELECT there's no further need for it.

> I wish ITERATE I and LEAVE I allowed I to be an EXPOSEd nonlocal variable.

Controlling the loop from a subroutine outside the loop sounds extremely error 
prone.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:18 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>I suppose so, but I always use SELECT, never ELSEIF.  I think it's because 
>with ELSEIF I feel compelled to indent each clause as if it were an "ELSE IF",
>
Sounds like a personal problem to me.

>and I abominate those long increasingly indented constructions:
>
>  if expr1 then stm1
>  else if expr2 then stm2
>else if expr3 then do
>blah blah blah; end
>  else if expr4 then stm4
>else if expr5 then stm5
>
>SELECT allows me to avoid that.
>
Or, you could use ELSEIF and just not indent.

I've seen some horribly hyperindented REXX code from IBM on CMS.  Like:
IF ...
  THEN
DO
  yada
  yada
END

I code:
IF ... THEN
THEN on the same line.  Its only purpose is to terminate a boolean expression.

>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:
>
Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

I wish ITERATE I and LEAVE I allowed I to be an EXPOSEd nonlocal variable.

--
gil

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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Seymour J Metz 
It's optional in PL/I as well unless you have a name on the END..


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
René Jansen [rene.vincent.jan...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

As NetRexx does; but the label is optional.

> On 29 Mar 2023, at 17:18, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
>> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
>> variable.
>> Does PL/I do likewise?
>
> No, PL/I does it better; a name on the end must match the label on the 
> opening statement.You can have multiple DO loops in the same scope, but PL/I 
> requires labels to be unique.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Paul Gilmartin [042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 9:29 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 08:13:11 -0500, Joe Monk wrote:
>
>> "Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure.  Fie on
>> the danglig ELSE!"
>>
>> Now you know why COBOL programmers always indented their code ... it helps
>>
> Past tense?  No longer?
>
>> line up the IF...ELSE structure. That was of course before VS COBOL II
>> (Cobol '85).
>>
> I understand that Python goes even further: it enforces the indention.
>
> It's precious that Rexx allows identifying the END by naming the control 
> variable.
> Does PL/I do likewise?  At times I use an otiose control variable merely so I
> can mark the END.
>
> And it's a shame that JCL doesn't require that the name fields of ELSE and 
> ENDIF
> match that of the IF.
>
> --
> gil
>
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Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

2023-03-29 Thread Seymour J Metz 
Structured Programming with go to Statements, Donald E.  Knuth, Computing 
Surveys, Volume 6, No.  4, Deecember 1974

Reprinted in Classics of Software Engineering.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]

I'm going to disagree only in a tiny and technical way:  ITERATE forces more 
discipline, but what that means is not that GOTO is less disciplined but that 
GOTO ~allows~ less discipline.  Back in my COBOL days I maintained that not all 
GOTOs are evil; these three are just fine:

  GOTO TOP-OF-LOOP (REXX's ITERATE)
  GOTO EXIT-PARAGRAPH
  GOTO EXIT-PROGRAM

Many programming languages now synthesize these in various structured 
statements without actually using the word "goto".  But if you don't have them 
(as with ITERATE in VBA) a GoTo can do the same without sacrificing clarity.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq.  Why don't we just 
give them ours?  It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for 
over 200 years and we're not using it any more.  -from pre-2005 debate */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2023 11:19

Ir's a more disciplined alternative to GOTO.

--- On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 09:38:50 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:
>I love the iterate statement for much the same reason:

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