Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Timothy Sipples wrote: >September 30, 2021: General Availability >September 30, 2026: End of Service (Extended Service available for an >additional charge) >September 30, 2028: End of Extended Service Ed Jaffe wrote: >When this was discussed at SHARE St. Louis after Mike Perera's >unfortunate on-stage gaff, Gary Puchkoff indicated a formal "sunset" >announcement for JES3 would begin a TEN YEAR countdown, which included >THREE years of extended support -- based on current IBM practice. > >Does this mean Gary was mistaken? Or...??? No, I've got a typo there in that speculation. *IF* past release schedules, lifecycles, and the Statement of Direction all hold -- what I would personally describe as a reasonable forecast but not a guarantee -- then that last date should be September 30, 2029. Thanks for catching that typo, Ed. Timothy Sipples IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I mentioned previously a bank merger that involved JES3 and JES2. We also experimented with running both as primary and secondary. I remember one problem that at the time IBM would not take an APAR for: one them would terminate without freeing all acquired virtual storage on the grounds that the next step should be IPL. IBM thought that running both JESes like that was nutso and too outré to bother fixing. Long time ago, circa 1990. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Jaffe Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 4:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On 2/28/2019 3:06 PM, Tony Harminc wrote: > > I'm not so sure... Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same > time on a z/OS image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there > are a few things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that > would be the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to > switch which is the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. > Anyway, I'm not trying to minimize the effort or risk of a conversion; > just not sure that it has to be Big Bang. We run with JES2 as secondary under JES3. It's no panacea. Your approach will work for a little while as you migrate your lowest-hanging fruit. But, at some point you'll really need to bite the bullet and put up a new LPAR that runs JES2 only. Once that's up, you can migrate your applications across, one by one, from easiest to most-difficult. -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Why I hate ASCII: 1. It's 7 bits 2. It had code points with dual glyphs early on 3. When you look at 8-bit supersets of ASCII, there are more code pages than there are for EBCDIC Unicode? IETF has settled on UTF-8 as the normative transform. That is, IMHO, a better choice than the one m$ uses 9UTF-16). An interactive editor should be easy to learn. ISPF is; vi isn't. "emacs is a wonderful operating system. All that it needs is a decent editor." -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 4:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:41:14 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I'm not the one who says "I hate EBCDIC"; I certainly like EBCDIC better than >ASCII. > Why? Is it largely 8-bit vs. 7-bit? Would it be fairer to compare (any of) the EBCDIC code pages to (any of) ISO-8859-x? In either case there's code point instability. Unicode? But which representation of Unicode? UTF-8 seems to be the modal choice. >As for Perl, my primary use of it is on OS/2, nd it did things that would have >been awkward with REXX. OTOH, I wish that the regex syntax were moe like >SNOBOL. > Depends. An interactive editor should be keystroke-economical (ISPF isn't.) Its scripted companion should be referentially transparent (vi isn't.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/28/2019 11:34 PM, Timothy Sipples wrote: September 30, 2021: General Availability September 30, 2026: End of Service (Extended Service available for an additional charge) September 30, 2028: End of Extended Service When this was discussed at SHARE St. Louis after Mike Perera's unfortunate on-stage gaff, Gary Puchkoff indicated a formal "sunset" announcement for JES3 would begin a TEN YEAR countdown, which included THREE years of extended support -- based on current IBM practice. Does this mean Gary was mistaken? Or...??? -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I was talking of JES2 and JES3 on the same z/OS image; not merely within the same Sysplex. Tony H. On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 09:40, Allan Staller wrote: > > JES2 and JES3 can coexist. I am sure there are some arcane rules (as > indicated below). > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Tom Marchant > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 5:35 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 > > On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:06:35 -0500, Tony Harminc wrote: > > >Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same time on a z/OS > >image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there are a few > >things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that would be > >the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to switch which is > >the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. > > AFAIK, JES3 can only be the primary JES. > > -- > Tom Marchant > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to > lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > ::DISCLAIMER:: > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and > intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not > guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, > corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses > in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred > errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or > its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely > those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of > HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, > disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message > without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is > strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete > it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or > attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. > -- > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
JES2 and JES3 can coexist. I am sure there are some arcane rules (as indicated below). -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Marchant Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 5:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:06:35 -0500, Tony Harminc wrote: >Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same time on a z/OS >image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there are a few >things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that would be >the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to switch which is >the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. AFAIK, JES3 can only be the primary JES. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ::DISCLAIMER:: -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachment(s) are confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. E-mail transmission is not guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or may contain viruses in transmission. The e mail and its contents (with or without referred errors) shall therefore not attach any liability on the originator or HCL or its affiliates. Views or opinions, if any, presented in this email are solely those of the author and may not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of HCL or its affiliates. Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure, modification, distribution and / or publication of this message without the prior written consent of authorized representative of HCL is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify the sender immediately. Before opening any email and/or attachments, please check them for viruses and other defects. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
IBM published JES3 to JES2 migration redbooks in 2014 and 2018, available here: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg248083.pdf http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/redbooks/pdfs/sg248427.pdf The general recommendation is a phased, stepwise migration, taking advantage of the fact that IBM supports JES3 and JES2 running in the same Sysplex. *IF* IBM's z/OS release schedule follows past practice, then the release of z/OS following z/OS 2.4 will have this lifecycle: September 30, 2021: General Availability September 30, 2026: End of Service (Extended Service available for an additional charge) September 30, 2028: End of Extended Service Timothy Sipples IT Architect Executive, Industry Solutions, IBM Z & LinuxONE E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/28/2019 3:06 PM, Tony Harminc wrote: I'm not so sure... Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same time on a z/OS image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there are a few things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that would be the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to switch which is the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. Anyway, I'm not trying to minimize the effort or risk of a conversion; just not sure that it has to be Big Bang. We run with JES2 as secondary under JES3. It's no panacea. Your approach will work for a little while as you migrate your lowest-hanging fruit. But, at some point you'll really need to bite the bullet and put up a new LPAR that runs JES2 only. Once that's up, you can migrate your applications across, one by one, from easiest to most-difficult. -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:06:35 -0500, Tony Harminc wrote: >Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same >time on a z/OS image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there >are a few things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that >would be the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to >switch which is the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. AFAIK, JES3 can only be the primary JES. -- Tom Marchant -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 at 06:27, Larre Shiller <0102cb4997b0-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > A JES3-to-JES2 conversion effort is a high risk change that requires > essentially the same level of effort as a conversion from one platform to > another--but it has the disadvantage of a 100% "must-go-right" overnight IPL > switch. I'm not so sure... Is it not possible to run JES2 and JES3 at the same time on a z/OS image? Certainly you can run multiple JES2s. Yes, there are a few things that a secondary JES can't do, but I would think that would be the way to convert. Of course at some point you have to switch which is the primary JES, but is that really such a risk. Anyway, I'm not trying to minimize the effort or risk of a conversion; just not sure that it has to be Big Bang. > On the other hand, moving to a different platform allows a staged application > migration [...] And how's that been going for most shops? Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I'm with Larre. I myself have always worked under JES2. Closest I came to JES3 was when the old Bank of America (San Frisco) was swallowing up the late great Security Pacific Bank (LA). BofA was JES3. In a meeting about obstacles to merging, some exec asked "How about first converting SecPac to JES3, then merging?" Bless his heart, he had no idea the barrel of worms he was proposing. I don't believe that either JES is inherently superior. They are two alternative churches sitting kitty-corner on a busy intersection. One proclaims "There Ain't No Hell", the other counters "The Hell There Ain't". They each have adherents who don't want to concede the struggle to the other. A third church that melds the best of both might be a promising compromise, but habits would have change. People love their habits. And what would it be called? JES5 (2+3) or JES6 (2*3)? I sympathize with JES3 sites that will get bitten. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Larre Shiller Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 3:27 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 > Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger > or weaker by getting to one JES? Well... I guess there are a number of ways to look at that. But I think that IBM runs the risk of losing some number of z/OS customers as a result of this, which could in the long term affect the overall IBM revenue stream and the life expectancy of the z/OS platform. I have to assume that the number-crunchers at IBM have already factored this into their calculations and have come to the conclusion that the risk is worth the reward here. In the near term, some larger and more complex JES3 installations, and especially those in the public sector that have constant external pressure put on them to "modernize" their systems (whatever that means... typically meaning "move to Linux" or "the AWS cloud"), may simply take this opportunity to move to a completely different platform. Or simply speed up the already on-going effort to eliminate (what is perceived as) legacy software with a high "technical debt" cost by moving to a different/modern platform. This is indeed a very real risk... and IBM has put many of us in a box. For those JES2 shops out there... imagine how your shop has grown over the past 30 years and what products/services that you support that have an API or in some way interface with JES. Just imagine what would it take for you to be able to know for sure that this conversion will be 100% successful? IBM can add as much JES3 functionality into JES2 as it wants to, but at the end of the day, you still have to do the conversion and ensure that your environment is 100% functional the day after the conversion. And how much fun do you think it will be to convert 16 SYSPLEXes and 300K MIPS-worth of workload (OK, so 30% of it is in a single SYSPLEX)...? A JES3-to-JES2 conversion effort is a high risk change that requires essentially the same level of effort as a conversion from one platform to another--but it has the disadvantage of a 100% "must-go-right" overnight IPL switch. And in the end, there's nothing to show for it... other than a 2 instead of a 3 and a line item in the CxO's spreadsheet that shows the millions of dollars spent on R, additional products, test time, personnel costs and lost productivity. Also, I certainly would not want to be the public official testifying in front of a Congressional panel the week after seeing the "Critical System Failure Affects Millions of Seniors" headline in the local paper. Would you put your professional reputation on the line and tell your CxO that "everything is going to be all right" the day before a conversion like this? On the other hand, moving to a different platform allows a staged application migration and a completely modernized environment--rich with new functionality and without the "legacy" problems that persist on z/OS while at the same time minimizing and compartmentalizing the risk to critical production applications. So... why would a CxO choose to spend millions of dollars on a costly and risky conversion effort (even if it were logistically possible), instead of using those same funds to completely modernize that same environment...? Similarly, very small shops that do not have the personnel or resources to perform a conversion will probably wait this out for a while and then simply move off the platform. For medium-sized shops, it's probably a wash. Overall, the number of customers a
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 17:41:14 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I'm not the one who says "I hate EBCDIC"; I certainly like EBCDIC better than >ASCII. > Why? Is it largely 8-bit vs. 7-bit? Would it be fairer to compare (any of) the EBCDIC code pages to (any of) ISO-8859-x? In either case there's code point instability. Unicode? But which representation of Unicode? UTF-8 seems to be the modal choice. >As for Perl, my primary use of it is on OS/2, nd it did things that would have >been awkward with REXX. OTOH, I wish that the regex syntax were moe like >SNOBOL. > Depends. An interactive editor should be keystroke-economical (ISPF isn't.) Its scripted companion should be referentially transparent (vi isn't.) -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I did cards; that was bad enough. And, yes, I would prefer that everyone had
full support for Unicode.
Collating sequences? That's just the tip of the iceberg for locales.
How bout the different time standards? UT1? UT2/ UTC?
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
John McKown
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 12:51 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 11:41 AM Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I'm not the one who says "I hate EBCDIC"; I certainly like EBCDIC better
> than ASCII.
>
My apologies. I was confused. That is "gil". I prefer Unicode, personally.
And I really don't want to get into a discussion about "collating
sequences". Blech. How about we go back to Baudot? {grin}
>
> As for Perl, my primary use of it is on OS/2, nd it did things that would
> have been awkward with REXX. OTOH, I wish that the regex syntax were moe
> like SNOBOL.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
--
I just burned 2000 calories!
That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
--
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--
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Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 11:41 AM Seymour J Metz wrote:
> I'm not the one who says "I hate EBCDIC"; I certainly like EBCDIC better
> than ASCII.
>
My apologies. I was confused. That is "gil". I prefer Unicode, personally.
And I really don't want to get into a discussion about "collating
sequences". Blech. How about we go back to Baudot? {grin}
>
> As for Perl, my primary use of it is on OS/2, nd it did things that would
> have been awkward with REXX. OTOH, I wish that the regex syntax were moe
> like SNOBOL.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
--
I just burned 2000 calories!
That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I'm not the one who says "I hate EBCDIC"; I certainly like EBCDIC better than ASCII. As for Perl, my primary use of it is on OS/2, nd it did things that would have been awkward with REXX. OTOH, I wish that the regex syntax were moe like SNOBOL. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of John McKown Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2019 7:31 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 3:50 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a > consensus answer. > > Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really > considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all > to be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and > they are at least similar. > No way. I adored CMS compared to TSO. And this was in the 1980s time frame. PERL VS. REXX? As it now stands on z/OS, REXX is better due to its superior interface with TSO and other systems such as ISPF, SDSF, et alias. Given than IBM has "outsourced" PERL to RocketSoftware, I don't know how viable PERL really is in z/OS. This is not a knock on Rocket, I think they did a good job porting PERL (and Python). But keeping up with the advances with FOSS languages such as PERL, Python, Ruby, ... is very time and resource intensive. I don't really expect Rocket to keep up with the changes. And then there is CPAN with a lot of PERL routines, some of which can't run on z/OS, as is, due to C routines which would need to be ported. As you often say "I hate EBCDIC!" But given what I read about IBM supporting the running of "most" z/Linux Docker images under z/OS, this may be a way to get on the FOSS bandwagon if it is done well. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > -- I just burned 2000 calories! That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Matt Hogstrom m...@hogstrom.org +1-919-656-0564 PGP Key: 0x90ECB270 “You can’t put too much water in a nuclear reactor" > On Feb 28, 2019, at 7:22 AM, John McKown wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 2:43 PM Knutson, Samuel < > samuel.knut...@compuware.com> wrote: > >> Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made >> stronger or weaker by getting to one JES? >> > > Yes. > Overall change can be hard, but, moving to one has benefits of focused development and delivery perhaps at the unfortunate cost of some function. Life is a set of tradeoffs. > >> >> I think that for a core part of the mainframe platform rationalizing to a >> single standard configuration of the OS from two options makes it more >> sustainable. Vendors and IBM can avoid duplicate investments and customers >> can better rely on pervasive support by software and an increase in the >> available supply of skills to operate their systems. In my opinion IBM >> should have made this definitive choice sooner this amounts to acceptance >> of prevailing trends. >> > > I like what I've read about the addition of JES3 type facilities into JES2. > Of course, at this place, I'll likely never see them. But, then, we have > been acquired by United Healthcare One, so I don't know what the future > will bring. Well, death is guaranteed, but before that is a bit iffy. (or > is that too morbid for this early in the morning?) > Spot on … just truth :) > > >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Sam Knutson | VP, Product Management | Compuware >> @samknutson | linkedin.com/in/samknutson >> samuel.knut...@compuware.com | M: +1 301 996-1318 >> > > -- > I just burned 2000 calories! > That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven. > > Maranatha! <>< > John McKown > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 3:50 PM Seymour J Metz wrote: > I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a > consensus answer. > > Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really > considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all > to be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and > they are at least similar. > No way. I adored CMS compared to TSO. And this was in the 1980s time frame. PERL VS. REXX? As it now stands on z/OS, REXX is better due to its superior interface with TSO and other systems such as ISPF, SDSF, et alias. Given than IBM has "outsourced" PERL to RocketSoftware, I don't know how viable PERL really is in z/OS. This is not a knock on Rocket, I think they did a good job porting PERL (and Python). But keeping up with the advances with FOSS languages such as PERL, Python, Ruby, ... is very time and resource intensive. I don't really expect Rocket to keep up with the changes. And then there is CPAN with a lot of PERL routines, some of which can't run on z/OS, as is, due to C routines which would need to be ported. As you often say "I hate EBCDIC!" But given what I read about IBM supporting the running of "most" z/Linux Docker images under z/OS, this may be a way to get on the FOSS bandwagon if it is done well. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > -- I just burned 2000 calories! That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 2:43 PM Knutson, Samuel < samuel.knut...@compuware.com> wrote: > Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made > stronger or weaker by getting to one JES? > Yes. > > I think that for a core part of the mainframe platform rationalizing to a > single standard configuration of the OS from two options makes it more > sustainable. Vendors and IBM can avoid duplicate investments and customers > can better rely on pervasive support by software and an increase in the > available supply of skills to operate their systems. In my opinion IBM > should have made this definitive choice sooner this amounts to acceptance > of prevailing trends. > I like what I've read about the addition of JES3 type facilities into JES2. Of course, at this place, I'll likely never see them. But, then, we have been acquired by United Healthcare One, so I don't know what the future will bring. Well, death is guaranteed, but before that is a bit iffy. (or is that too morbid for this early in the morning?) > > > Best Regards, > > Sam Knutson | VP, Product Management | Compuware > @samknutson | linkedin.com/in/samknutson > samuel.knut...@compuware.com | M: +1 301 996-1318 > -- I just burned 2000 calories! That's the last time I'll nap with brownies in the oven. Maranatha! <>< John McKown -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
> Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger > or weaker by getting to one JES? Well... I guess there are a number of ways to look at that. But I think that IBM runs the risk of losing some number of z/OS customers as a result of this, which could in the long term affect the overall IBM revenue stream and the life expectancy of the z/OS platform. I have to assume that the number-crunchers at IBM have already factored this into their calculations and have come to the conclusion that the risk is worth the reward here. In the near term, some larger and more complex JES3 installations, and especially those in the public sector that have constant external pressure put on them to "modernize" their systems (whatever that means... typically meaning "move to Linux" or "the AWS cloud"), may simply take this opportunity to move to a completely different platform. Or simply speed up the already on-going effort to eliminate (what is perceived as) legacy software with a high "technical debt" cost by moving to a different/modern platform. This is indeed a very real risk... and IBM has put many of us in a box. For those JES2 shops out there... imagine how your shop has grown over the past 30 years and what products/services that you support that have an API or in some way interface with JES. Just imagine what would it take for you to be able to know for sure that this conversion will be 100% successful? IBM can add as much JES3 functionality into JES2 as it wants to, but at the end of the day, you still have to do the conversion and ensure that your environment is 100% functional the day after the conversion. And how much fun do you think it will be to convert 16 SYSPLEXes and 300K MIPS-worth of workload (OK, so 30% of it is in a single SYSPLEX)...? A JES3-to-JES2 conversion effort is a high risk change that requires essentially the same level of effort as a conversion from one platform to another--but it has the disadvantage of a 100% "must-go-right" overnight IPL switch. And in the end, there's nothing to show for it... other than a 2 instead of a 3 and a line item in the CxO's spreadsheet that shows the millions of dollars spent on R, additional products, test time, personnel costs and lost productivity. Also, I certainly would not want to be the public official testifying in front of a Congressional panel the week after seeing the "Critical System Failure Affects Millions of Seniors" headline in the local paper. Would you put your professional reputation on the line and tell your CxO that "everything is going to be all right" the day before a conversion like this? On the other hand, moving to a different platform allows a staged application migration and a completely modernized environment--rich with new functionality and without the "legacy" problems that persist on z/OS while at the same time minimizing and compartmentalizing the risk to critical production applications. So... why would a CxO choose to spend millions of dollars on a costly and risky conversion effort (even if it were logistically possible), instead of using those same funds to completely modernize that same environment...? Similarly, very small shops that do not have the personnel or resources to perform a conversion will probably wait this out for a while and then simply move off the platform. For medium-sized shops, it's probably a wash. Overall, the number of customers affected here is probably rather small, but given the size of some JES3 shops, if this chases away enough JES3 shops, it could seriously negatively affect the overall installed MIP count and thus the long term stability of the platform. So... perhaps the shops that remain on z/OS will be in a better position... at least for a while, until those remaining shops also start drifting away from the platform for one reason or another until eventually there's nobody left to turn out the lights. Larre Shiller US Social Security Administration Office: 410.965.2209 “The opinions expressed in this post are mine personally and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the US Social Security Administration and/or the US Government.” -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 23:36:59 +, Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) wrote: > >... To fix this, it required us to split many jobs in half, some even >more...the run total got to be somewhere around 6500+ jobs in total. But we >had to build dataset create jobs that were parm cards to a utility to create >the files, because if JES3 scanned the JCL and couldn't find it...boom JCL >ERROR. > At some point, I arrived at a paradigm such as: //HANDLE DD DISP=(MOD,CATLG),UNIT=SYSALLDA,SPACE=(...),DSN=... //SYSUT2 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=*.HANDLE,VOL=REF=*.HANDLE ... to either use an existing data set or create a new one. No need for utility and parm. JES2. Never tried it on JES3. Could be done in 2 separate steps, but why bother? >So, I was scarred because "I" saw this restriction as pretty stupid...and >never saw the point. > I suspect that many problems such as yours arise from JES3 setup's adamantly acting as if all steps are executed regardless of COND or IF or DYNALLOC. There ought to be an alternative. I'm not much impressed by any argument that a design that doesn't know at each point whether or not a given data set exists presumes a defective process. >To me JES2 is and was exactly what I believe it was designed for a tool to >support and run applications very efficiently, whereas I felt that JES3 was >getting in the way of normal application jobs. Seemed like we were constantly >trying to please JES3 in some way...so I hope and pray this "standard" wont >make it to JES2. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Well, as an example, JES2 relies on the Initiator to serialize jobs, and the Initiator relies only on dataset name. JES3 can serialize jobs taking the volume serial numbers into account. But the issue isn't which is better, the issue is whether "Is foo really considered by all to be better than bar ??" can ever be honestly answered "yes". At best it's reasonable to ask about a majority opinion; unanimity is about as implausible as it gets. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 6:36 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 Don't want to start a War between the 2 versions, but I'm curious as to why you believe JES3 to be superior to JES2 ?? Is this from a Systems perspective ?? Maybe JES3 does far many things that JES2 doesn't IDK. But for me, I'm not a System guy, I'm a technical guy that has worked with many applications for vendors. Almost all sites I have worked on used JES2 (and I'm very comfortable with it). But 1 site had JES3...when you develop a Credit Card application for a large Bank on JES2...it had about 3200+ jobs to run daily. Putting those jobs on JES3 was a total disaster. At the time, JES3 required all datasets to exist or the job would JCL Error. Even jobs with a couple input files, creating an output file...it would require output to be there. To fix this, it required us to split many jobs in half, some even more...the run total got to be somewhere around 6500+ jobs in total. But we had to build dataset create jobs that were parm cards to a utility to create the files, because if JES3 scanned the JCL and couldn't find it...boom JCL ERROR. So, I was scarred because "I" saw this restriction as pretty stupid...and never saw the point. To me JES2 is and was exactly what I believe it was designed for a tool to support and run applications very efficiently, whereas I felt that JES3 was getting in the way of normal application jobs. Seemed like we were constantly trying to please JES3 in some way...so I hope and pray this "standard" wont make it to JES2. Thanks, Tom Savor -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 4:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a consensus answer. Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all to be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and they are at least similar. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. >From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Don't want to start a War between the 2 versions, but I'm curious as to why you believe JES3 to be superior to JES2 ?? Is this from a Systems perspective ?? Maybe JES3 does far many things that JES2 doesn't IDK. But for me, I'm not a System guy, I'm a technical guy that has worked with many applications for vendors. Almost all sites I have worked on used JES2 (and I'm very comfortable with it). But 1 site had JES3...when you develop a Credit Card application for a large Bank on JES2...it had about 3200+ jobs to run daily. Putting those jobs on JES3 was a total disaster. At the time, JES3 required all datasets to exist or the job would JCL Error. Even jobs with a couple input files, creating an output file...it would require output to be there. To fix this, it required us to split many jobs in half, some even more...the run total got to be somewhere around 6500+ jobs in total. But we had to build dataset create jobs that were parm cards to a utility to create the files, because if JES3 scanned the JCL and couldn't find it...boom JCL ERROR. So, I was scarred because "I" saw this restriction as pretty stupid...and never saw the point. To me JES2 is and was exactly what I believe it was designed for a tool to support and run applications very efficiently, whereas I felt that JES3 was getting in the way of normal application jobs. Seemed like we were constantly trying to please JES3 in some way...so I hope and pray this "standard" wont make it to JES2. Thanks, Tom Savor -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 4:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a consensus answer. Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all to be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and they are at least similar. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. >From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/27/2019 1:31 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote: Stronger, but with the caveat that if the consolidated product provides for either JES2-like or JES3-like behavior at the option of the site or of the individual user the burden on vendors remains. Both JESes are full of options today. Nothing changes that going forward. Based on past recent history, IBM is enhancing JES2 by adding JES3 functions. Given that focus, there is potential if the investment is great enough, for JES2 to become a functional superset of JES3. Does that mean there will be more options than there are today? Probably. But, there are always new options every year no matter what... -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
IBM was the consensus of one Sent from my iPhone Sorry for the finger checks > On Feb 27, 2019, at 15:50, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a > consensus answer. > > Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really > considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all to > be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and they are > at least similar. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 > >> That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >> JES3 standard > > Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? > I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never > has. > From an application point of view. > > Thanks, > > Tom Savor > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I would consider JES3 superior to JES2, but such questions rarely have a consensus answer. Is TSO really considered by all to be better than CMS? Is REXX really considered by all to be better than Perl? Is P/I really considered by all to be superior to C? I couldn't even get consensus on C versus C++, and they are at least similar. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. >From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
In the unlikely event that IBM actually includes all of the features of JES3 in JES2, then I think that it will be stronger, albeit with a painful transition. If they do as they have so often done and provide only partial equivalents, then it will be negative. I'm assuming that, e.g., user exits, user-written DSPs, would need to be written from scratch even if IBM does it right; that doesn't bother me, although it will be a royal PITA for some. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Knutson, Samuel Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 3:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger or weaker by getting to one JES? I think that for a core part of the mainframe platform rationalizing to a single standard configuration of the OS from two options makes it more sustainable. Vendors and IBM can avoid duplicate investments and customers can better rely on pervasive support by software and an increase in the available supply of skills to operate their systems. In my opinion IBM should have made this definitive choice sooner this amounts to acceptance of prevailing trends. Best Regards, Sam Knutson | VP, Product Management | Compuware @samknutson | linkedin.com/in/samknutson samuel.knut...@compuware.com | M: +1 301 996-1318 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. >From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 20:43:17 +, Knutson, Samuel wrote: >Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger >or weaker by getting to one JES? > >I think that for a core part of the mainframe platform rationalizing to a >single standard configuration of the OS from two options makes it more >sustainable. Vendors and IBM can avoid duplicate investments and customers >can better rely on pervasive support by software and an increase in the >available supply of skills to operate their systems. In my opinion IBM should >have made this definitive choice sooner this amounts to acceptance of >prevailing trends. > Stronger, but with the caveat that if the consolidated product provides for either JES2-like or JES3-like behavior at the option of the site or of the individual user the burden on vendors remains. https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice?language=en -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
https://www.mxg.com/thebuttonman/html/button589.htm In a message dated 2/27/2019 2:43:43 PM Central Standard Time, samuel.knut...@compuware.com writes: Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger or weaker by getting to one JES? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Do you the think the z/OS overall ecosystem and the platform is made stronger or weaker by getting to one JES? I think that for a core part of the mainframe platform rationalizing to a single standard configuration of the OS from two options makes it more sustainable. Vendors and IBM can avoid duplicate investments and customers can better rely on pervasive support by software and an increase in the available supply of skills to operate their systems. In my opinion IBM should have made this definitive choice sooner this amounts to acceptance of prevailing trends. Best Regards, Sam Knutson | VP, Product Management | Compuware @samknutson | linkedin.com/in/samknutson samuel.knut...@compuware.com | M: +1 301 996-1318 -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 11:18 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor The contents of this e-mail are intended for the named addressee only. It contains information that may be confidential. Unless you are the named addressee or an authorized designee, you may not copy or use it, or disclose it to anyone else. If you received it in error please notify us immediately and then destroy it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/27/2019 8:18 AM, Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) wrote: That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. From an application point of view. The announcement mentions a few of the JES3 functions that have been recently added to JES2, as well as one of the new capabilities being added in z/OS 2.4, as justification for the decision to finally sunset JES3: "JES2 has added functionality, including dependent job control, deadline scheduling, 8-character job classes, and interpreting JES3 JECL control statements. For z/OS V2.4, additional function to aid in migrations is planned, including Disk Reader capability and enhanced JES3 JECL support in JES2 (ROUTE XEQ). Today, as a result of our strategic investment and ongoing commitment to JES2, as well as continuing to enhance JES3 to JES2 migration aids, IBM is announcing that the release following z/OS V2.4 is planned to be the last release of z/OS that will include JES3 as a feature." They have actually done considerably more than what is listed in the SOD. There is still more to do, but as I said they have until September 2023 to get it all done... -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
JES3 will not start your job until datasets are released and space is available. JES2 starts your job then waits until the datasets are available, and you can run out of space. On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:18 AM Savor, Thomas (Alpharetta) wrote: > > >That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to > >JES3 standard > > Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? > I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never > has. > From an application point of view. > > Thanks, > > Tom Savor > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Well, I was informed 20 years ago JES2 is future for JES and JES3 is not. End of JES3 cannot be called "unexpected". -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 2019-02-27 o 16:54, Ed Jaffe pisze: On 2/27/2019 6:44 AM, Roach, Dennis wrote: Is the last release planned to be 2.3 or 2.5? z/OS 2.5 (or whatever it will be called) aka "the release following z/OS V2R4" will be the last one to include the JES3 feature. That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to JES3 standard and b) barring any new, special support program that might be invented in a hypothetical future, JES3 has 10 1/2 more years until it's fully unsupported. == Jeśli nie jesteś adresatem tej wiadomości: - powiadom nas o tym w mailu zwrotnym (dziękujemy!), - usuń trwale tę wiadomość (i wszystkie kopie, które wydrukowałeś lub zapisałeś na dysku). Wiadomość ta może zawierać chronione prawem informacje, które może wykorzystać tylko adresat.Przypominamy, że każdy, kto rozpowszechnia (kopiuje, rozprowadza) tę wiadomość lub podejmuje podobne działania, narusza prawo i może podlegać karze. mBank S.A. z siedzibą w Warszawie, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Kapitał zakładowy (opłacony w całości) według stanu na 01.01.2018 r. wynosi 169.248.488 złotych. If you are not the addressee of this message: - let us know by replying to this e-mail (thank you!), - delete this message permanently (including all the copies which you have printed out or saved). This message may contain legally protected information, which may be used exclusively by the addressee.Please be reminded that anyone who disseminates (copies, distributes) this message or takes any similar action, violates the law and may be penalised. mBank S.A. with its registered office in Warsaw, ul. Senatorska 18, 00-950 Warszawa,www.mBank.pl, e-mail: kont...@mbank.pl. District Court for the Capital City of Warsaw, 12th Commercial Division of the National Court Register, KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Fully paid-up share capital amounting to PLN 169,248,488 as at 1 January 2018. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
>That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to >JES3 standard Is JES3 really considered by all to be better than JES2 ?? I know it was 20 years ago, but JES3 gave me nightmares, whereas JES2 never has. From an application point of view. Thanks, Tom Savor -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
I missed the following 2.4. What are they doing about exit compatibility? Dennis Roach, CISSP AIG Identity & Access Management | Infrastructure Services 2929 Allen Parkway, America Building, 3rd Floor | Houston, TX 77019 Work: 713-831-8799 Cell: 713-591-1059 (cell) dennis.ro...@aig.com | www.aig.com Away Schedule -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Jaffe Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 9:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On 2/27/2019 6:44 AM, Roach, Dennis wrote: > Is the last release planned to be 2.3 or 2.5? z/OS 2.5 (or whatever it will be called) aka "the release following z/OS V2R4" will be the last one to include the JES3 feature. That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to JES3 standard and b) barring any new, special support program that might be invented in a hypothetical future, JES3 has 10 1/2 more years until it's fully unsupported. -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.phoenixsoftware.com_=DwICaQ=kn4_INW_mBCDHV_xJEVJkg=4j3ZDwvYrXKdSU6ESB92A6LnsVi8flJxtYboyisxlsM=lsNKcy5Ft2IicwPKuiASrFjB7XrfPoAdhKj4mfqGyU4=lnqi7n8kT7aINM3MFV_-WZfSwXASZ4Ad0kjtX9RrqNc= This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/27/2019 6:44 AM, Roach, Dennis wrote: Is the last release planned to be 2.3 or 2.5? z/OS 2.5 (or whatever it will be called) aka "the release following z/OS V2R4" will be the last one to include the JES3 feature. That means a) IBM has until September 2023 to fully bring JES2 up to JES3 standard and b) barring any new, special support program that might be invented in a hypothetical future, JES3 has 10 1/2 more years until it's fully unsupported. -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Is the last release planned to be 2.3 or 2.5? Dennis Roach, CISSP AIG Identity & Access Management | Infrastructure Services 2929 Allen Parkway, America Building, 3rd Floor | Houston, TX 77019 Work: 713-831-8799 Cell: 713-591-1059 (cell) dennis.ro...@aig.com | www.aig.com Away Schedule -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Jaffe Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 12:05 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 z/OS V2R5 (or whatever it will be called) will be the last release to include the JES3 feature. IBM justifies that decision in this way: "JES2 has added functionality, including dependent job control, deadline scheduling, 8-character job classes, and interpreting JES3 JECL control statements. For z/OS V2.4, additional function to aid in migrations is planned, including Disk Reader capability and enhanced JES3 JECL support in JES2 (ROUTE XEQ). Today, as a result of our strategic investment and ongoing commitment to JES2, as well as continuing to enhance JES3 to JES2 migration aids, IBM is announcing that the release following z/OS V2.4 is planned to be the last release of z/OS that will include JES3 as a feature." There is still much more to do to bring JES2 up to JES3 standard, but apparently IBM believes they can get it all done by September 2021... -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.phoenixsoftware.com_=DwICaQ=kn4_INW_mBCDHV_xJEVJkg=4j3ZDwvYrXKdSU6ESB92A6LnsVi8flJxtYboyisxlsM=7SIk2WV8ps19emn1SMBp2h3mpTOLtVHOcjADJ_6t5JA=jH3xty6HnK1Ats7l8bg-gcXbl7A0mRuQfdO7tVlyMhc= This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Like Y2K, this might open up a whole new career opportunity for someone with an itch to move around. HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL WIRE JAFFE LOS ANGELES . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Jaffe Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 2:42 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3 On 2/26/2019 10:35 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht wrote: > >> There is still much more to do to bring JES2 up to JES3 standard, but >> apparently IBM believes they can get it all done by September 2021... > Hahaha, LOL, I don't believe in such predictions that something will happens > at time X/Y/Z. Usually I take such 'predictions' with a very small pinch of > tasteless salt, but I will remember it and wait at the predicted date/time. Haha! Me too! I've won almost every bet I've ever made on such timelines being overly-optimistic. LOL :-D > Oh, wait, big blue forgot about backward compatibility... In a BIG way! :-\ > I however see, there will be a lot of vendors trying to assisting conversion > to JES2 from JES3. You're right! Among others, I suspect IBM Global Services will try to pretend they actually know how to perform the conversion and charge tremendous sums of money to try to do so! =-O There's plenty of time to get it right. By my calculation, today's announcement gives JES3 only another 10 1/2 years of life before it becomes fully unsupported software. I might be retired by then... ;-) -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/26/2019 10:35 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht wrote: There is still much more to do to bring JES2 up to JES3 standard, but apparently IBM believes they can get it all done by September 2021... Hahaha, LOL, I don't believe in such predictions that something will happens at time X/Y/Z. Usually I take such 'predictions' with a very small pinch of tasteless salt, but I will remember it and wait at the predicted date/time. Haha! Me too! I've won almost every bet I've ever made on such timelines being overly-optimistic. LOL :-D Oh, wait, big blue forgot about backward compatibility... In a BIG way! :-\ I however see, there will be a lot of vendors trying to assisting conversion to JES2 from JES3. You're right! Among others, I suspect IBM Global Services will try to pretend they actually know how to perform the conversion and charge tremendous sums of money to try to do so! =-O There's plenty of time to get it right. By my calculation, today's announcement gives JES3 only another 10 1/2 years of life before it becomes fully unsupported software. I might be retired by then... ;-) -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
Ed Jaffe wrote: >z/OS V2R5 (or whatever it will be called) will be the last release to include >the JES3 feature. IBM justifies that decision in this way: I am feeling for you, you who are really who is one of the serious top-gun JES3 gurus. I remember the ten thousand millions (and still counting) threads in IBM-MAIN about JES3 and comparision and "unification" of JES2 and JES3. >There is still much more to do to bring JES2 up to JES3 standard, but >apparently IBM believes they can get it all done by September 2021... Hahaha, LOL, I don't believe in such predictions that something will happens at time X/Y/Z. Usually I take such 'predictions' with a very small pinch of tasteless salt, but I will remember it and wait at the predicted date/time. Oh, wait, big blue forgot about backward compatibility... I however see, there will be a lot of vendors trying to assisting conversion to JES2 from JES3. Disclaimer: I never ever see or worked with JES3 at all. If I say something about JES3 innards, feel free to disregard it with your great pleasure. ;-) Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS V2R5 Will be the Last Release to Include JES3
On 2/26/2019 10:05 AM, Ed Jaffe wrote: There is still much more to do to bring JES2 up to JES3 standard, but apparently IBM believes they can get it all done by September 2021... Correction: by 2023. They could continue to enhance JES2 via continuous delivery right up until the expected delivery of z/OS V2R6 (or whatever it will be called). -- Phoenix Software International Edward E. Jaffe 831 Parkview Drive North El Segundo, CA 90245 https://www.phoenixsoftware.com/ This e-mail message, including any attachments, appended messages and the information contained therein, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not an intended recipient or have otherwise received this email message in error, any use, dissemination, distribution, review, storage or copying of this e-mail message and the information contained therein is strictly prohibited. If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of this email message and do not otherwise utilize or retain this email message or any or all of the information contained therein. Although this email message and any attachments or appended messages are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by the sender for any loss or damage arising in any way from its opening or use. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
