At 03:49 AM 12/8/00 +0859, Masataka Ohta wrote:
However, they can't justify to call them internationalization.
precisely.
At 15:35 06/12/2000 -0700, Vernon Schryver wrote:
The same thinking that says that MIME Version headers make sense in
general IETF list mail also says that localized alphabets and glyphs must
be used in absolutely all contexts, including those that everyone must
use and so would expect to be
From: Harald Alvestrand [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The same thinking that says that MIME Version headers make sense in
general IETF list mail also says that localized alphabets and glyphs must
be used in absolutely all contexts, including those that everyone must
use and so would expect to be
Keith Moore wrote:
Furthermore, a
great many people use multiple languages (not necessarily including
English) is, so that a given person, host, or subnetwork will often
need to exist in multiple (potentially competing) locales at once.
Sometimes even in the same sentence. My mother grew
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 07:23:11 -0500
From: Dave Crocker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
At least the recipient has the unintelligible data well isolated and
labeled. MIME did its job.
Indeed. If I get a mail message which is in HTML only, 99.97% of the
time it's SPAM-mail. And I've lost
you missed it. Suppose you could not exchange in commerce with a person of
a given nationality, not because you did not have a language in common with
him or her, but because your system could not interpret his or her name.
That would mean that you could not spend money in that person's
Keith;
you missed it. Suppose you could not exchange in commerce with a person of
a given nationality, not because you did not have a language in common with
him or her, but because your system could not interpret his or her name.
That would mean that you could not spend money in
From: Henk Langeveld [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You know, it isn't that long ago that I realised that for many Americans,
"International" is synonymous with "Non-American".
That is as true as the observation that many who learn English as a
second language think that "international" is synonymous
If the world had asked you or me to design an international
language, I think either of us would have done better.
Don't be too sure. Even today, there are no more speakers of
Esperanto than of Mayan.
At 06:21 PM 12/6/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
BTW, the basic tenet of end-to-end connectivity of data and services is, I
think, satisfied by the IP layer. Part of my question was about the
extent to which this end-to-end-ness needs to be duplicated at higher layers.
Not sure whether this is
Claus;
vint cerf [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb/wrote:
Incorporating other character sets without deep technical
consideration will risk the inestimable value of interworking across
the Internet. It CAN be done but there is a great deal of work to make
it function properly.
How do I type
Mr. Ohta has put his finger on a key point: ability of all
parties to generate email addresses, web page URLs and so on.
Even if we introduce extended character sets, it seems vital
that there be some form of domain name that can be rendered
(and entered) as simple IA4 characters to assure
I can't agree more.
-Original Message-
From: John C Klensin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 06 December 2000 16:46
To: vint cerf
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
(Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where
John;
(Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where it
belongs?)
The point is that IDN WG is purposeless and is wrong to exist. Of
course, it is waste of time to discuss it in IDN list. So, the
only reasonable reaction is to ignore it (I dropped improper CC:).
The only necessary
From: Masataka Ohta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
(Can we please move this discussion to the IDN list, where it
belongs?)
The point is that IDN WG is purposeless and is wrong to exist. Of
course, it is waste of time to discuss it in IDN list
Masataka Ohta is raising a point of order, and
Masataka Ohta and Vernon Schryver make excellent points in favor
of the domain name status quo. I agree that IDN should be frozen
for at least a few years to see what local domain admins and
application vendors tend to do, especially since the pieces of
the likely solutions (such as the
At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
Why not just use UTF-8? It is an encoding of the UCS (aka
Unicode/ISO 10646), the encoding
At 00/12/04 19:58 -0500, Eric Brunner wrote:
I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of
the
Internet community such a bad thing?"...
If the "partition" intended for discussion is "@sign vs !path" addressing
conventions, Eric Allman and Peter Honeyman have left
At 00/12/04 08:15 -0500, Dave Crocker wrote:
Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
be the closest to providing local/global support already.
That means postal gives us:
1. Global
however the value of the public Internet is surely in its widespread
accessibility and interoperability.
vint
At 05:10 PM 12/5/2000 +0900, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
I think there is a difference between making it technically possible
for everybody to participate in whatever community they want,
At 02:53 05/12/00, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
Why not just use UTF-8? It is an encoding of
Really big post offices have special places to handle things such
as incomplete addresses. Nothing guaranteed, but if you are lucky,
you may even successfully send a letter from an arbitrary place to
anywhere in the world using local addressing, at least if you don't
forget the country name
Martin,
I'll send you a copy of the "@sign vs !path" debate from my USENIX papers
archive. See "Pathalias: or The Care and Feeding of Relative Addresses" by
Honeyman and Bellovin, undated, at http://www.uucp.org/papers/pathalias.pdf.
Speculations on the general utility and availability of
At 18.05 +0900 00-12-05, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
ACE is (maybe) for machines. It's not primarily intended for humans.
We may have ACE all the way (including TLD). It might be usable as a
poor man's ASCII equivalent, but I strongly doubt that anybody will
want to have it on the Latin side of their
Ran;
At 02:53 05/12/00, Martin J. Duerst wrote:
At 00/12/04 10:42 -0800, Christian Huitema wrote:
So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
Why not just use UTF-8? It is an
At 00/12/03 08:03 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
There's a news story at:
http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2000-2/1201f.html#item10
under the heading "Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?"
Leaving aside the issues of competing registries,
Sorry, but I think that's the main topic of the
At 00/12/03 13:57 -0500, Dave Crocker wrote:
Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to postal mail a letter or
package to anywhere in the world?
Of course it would be very bad. But it is usual now to send mail
e.g. from Japan to Japan with an address without any Latin letters.
It is also
Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
be the closest to providing local/global support already.
That means postal gives us:
1. Global support for a common "character set"
2. Global
Dave;
Thank you. I was hoping someone would point out the support for parallel
operation so we could go further down that path. As you note, it seems to
be the closest to providing local/global support already.
Silly comparison.
Efficient postal system works with numbers so called zip
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 16:00:53 PST, lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
"I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email
address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit
reply".
Wasn't there a Dilbert cartoon regarding sending a page to a pager
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:17:45 EST, vint cerf [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
to incorporate and refer to domain names. The IA4 alphabet includes essentially
just the letters A-Z, numbers 0-9 and the "-" (dash). This is the limit of what
is allowed in domain names today.
The sad part is, of course,
Wasn't there a Dilbert cartoon regarding sending a page to a pager number
containing a caret? ;)
It was a tilde.
;-)
RGF
Robert G. Ferrell, CISSP
Information Systems Security Officer
National Business Center
U. S. Dept. of the Interior
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:17:45 EST, vint cerf [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
to incorporate and refer to domain names. The IA4 alphabet
includes essentially
just the letters A-Z, numbers 0-9 and the "-" (dash). This
is the limit of what
is allowed in domain names today.
The sad part is, of
So, at a minimum, we need an IETF
specification on how to detect that a domain name part is using a non ascii
encoding, so that DNS servers don't get lost.
We need a great deal more than that.
The real impact of internationalizing DNS names isn't with the DNS
protocol or software itself
I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the
Internet community such a bad thing?"...
If the "partition" intended for discussion is "@sign vs !path" addressing
conventions, Eric Allman and Peter Honeyman have left a discussion archive
on the subject. Arguably
Graham;
Leaving aside the issues of competing registries, touched upon in that
article, I had been wondering with the formation of IDN WG how I18N would
affect cross-character-type-boundary Internet activities.
Nothing.
Cross-character-type-boundary is a pure localization issue
and has
At 03:03 03/12/00, Graham Klyne wrote:
I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of the Internet
community such a bad thing?"
A partioning based on nationality, which is of course
different than language group, would be harmful. Lack of
interoperability of
At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +, Graham Klyne wrote:
I guess one of the first questions should be; "Is some partitioning of
the Internet community such a bad thing?".
Would it be such a bad thing to be unable to make a phone call to anywhere
in the world?
Would it be such a bad thing to be unable
In my opinion, it is vital to craft Internet's evolution so as to maintain
full connectivity and interworking among all its parts. I do not see
"balkanization" as a good thing at all. I believe there are sound technical
means to achieve the objective of incorporating character sets associated
But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what
these systems do? BLB
Dave Crocker wrote:
At 08:03 AM 12/3/00 +,
But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
that mean they should be replaced or that the Internet must duplicate what
these systems do?
i am sorry, but i can not understand the above.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 15:06
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
But the Internet is not the postal system nor the phone system. We already
have the postal system and the phone system. They may be slower, but does
that mean they should b
- Original Message -
From: "R . P . Aditya" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 16:20
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
snip
You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or
amharic
characters
Kimon gets a A. Betsy gets an F.
d/
At 03:30 PM 12/3/00 -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote:
But isn't the Internet a medium of communication as is the Post and the
telephone?
Therefore, shouldn't it support communication between any two points,
wherever they may be or however they're called?
Kimon
On Sun, Dec 03, 2000 at 04:56:38PM -0500, Kimon A. Andreou wrote:
snip
You can't address a letter to someone in Berkeley, USA in nagari or
amharic
characters and expect it to reach. However you can address a letter to
someone
in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia in ASCII characters with a
"I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email
address on my keyboard, could you please send me a message, and I'll just hit
reply".
if the app-presentation - internal coding - dns request mapping is not
one:one and reversable on the other end, even this is not sure
- Original Message -
From: "lists" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 19:00
Subject: Re: Will Language Wars Balkanize the Web?
"I'm sorry, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to type that email
address on my keyboard, c
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