Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Folks, +1 On 15/8/19 20:45, Ron Bonica wrote: > Joe, > > I am fine with this text if everybody else is. > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -Original Message- > From: Joe Touch > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 10:21 AM > To: Ron

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Joel, > On Aug 15, 2019, at 7:00 AM, Joel Halpern wrote: > > Bob was going to engage Alissa in a conversation. Bob, have you gotten > anywhere? I think she may be on vacation. I sent Alissa some proposed text, but got back what I interpreted as a vacation email. I note there is an IESG

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> On Aug 15, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Joe, > > All things are fragile. That's one of life's realities. > > But some things are more fragile than others. Sure, but what is the measure of “more”, esp. vs how many other features are fragile and break *all* communication?

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Joe, All things are fragile. That's one of life's realities. But some things are more fragile than others. Ron Juniper Business Use Only -Original Message- From: Joe Touch Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 10:21 AM To: Ron

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Well, there’s the tautology that “it worked when it worked”. Given that’s basically the rule that defines *everything* in the Internet, it’s baffling we need to say it again here, but if we did, we could simply state: “The Internet is a best-effort system and lacks a formal validation or

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Bob was going to engage Alissa in a conversation. Bob, have you gotten anywhere? I think she may be on vacation. Yours, Joel -Original Message- From: Ron Bonica Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 9:59 AM To: Brian E Carpenter ; Alissa Cooper ; Tom Herbert Cc: Joel Halpern ;

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Folks, Has anyone proposed text that: a) satisfies Alissa's request b) satisfies the WG If not, do we believe that such text could possibly exist? Ron Juniper Business Use Only -Original

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:00 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Tom, > > On 7/8/19 04:50, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > >> > >> Hello, Alissa, > >> > >> Thanks for your comments! Inline... > >> > >> On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: >

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On August 7, 2019 at 10:20:24 AM, Ron Bonica ( rbonica=40juniper@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote: Will the reader parse our words with the same exactitude that we are parsing them? If not, we may be splitting a hair four ways. Right…but given that this document is a BCP, if the text is not clear in

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Folks, Will the reader parse our words with the same exactitude that we are parsing them? If not, we may be splitting a hair four ways. Ron See http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-tet1.htm Juniper Business Use Only -Original

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 17:07, Joe Touch wrote: > > >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Fernando Gont > > wrote: >> >> On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: >>> Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security >>> attacks. >>> >>> And if we treat them as such, the

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

+1 Juniper Business Use Only -Original Message- From: Joel M. Halpern Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:49 PM To: Alissa Cooper ; Tom Herbert Cc: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: > > On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: >> Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. >> >> And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for >> anything. > > What I meant is that,

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: > Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. > > And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for > anything. What I meant is that, whether one likes it or not, at the point something does not work (for

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for anything. Joe On Aug 7, 2019, at 6:09 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> On 7/8/19 04:09, Joe Touch wrote: >> Yeah, but that’s the rub. >> >> If we

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 04:09, Joe Touch wrote: > Yeah, but that’s the rub. > > If we accept the status-quo of a failure to deploy devices that allow a valid > protocol capability this way, we’ve basically deprecated it. IN a way, it's the operational reality that has deprecated Fragmention (and essentially

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Tom, On 7/8/19 04:50, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> Hello, Alissa, >> >> Thanks for your comments! Inline... >> >> On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: >>> >>> --

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Hello, Alissa, > > Thanks for your comments! Inline... > > On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > > > -- > > DISCUSS: > >

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 07-Aug-19 13:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Brian, I would think the text just above the paragraph Alissa quoted > would already cover what you ask for. It begins: > Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that > rely on IP fragmentation. Well yes, so the "unless"

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hello, Alissa, Thanks for your comments! Inline... On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > -- > DISCUSS: > -- > > Thanks for writing this

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Yeah, but that’s the rub. If we accept the status-quo of a failure to deploy devices that allow a valid protocol capability this way, we’ve basically deprecated it. That’s the bad idea that we’ve tried hard to avoid, IMO. Joe > On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:06 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Brian, I

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Brian, I would think the text just above the paragraph Alissa quoted would already cover what you ask for. It begins: Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that rely on IP fragmentation. Yours, Joel On 8/6/2019 8:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 07-Aug-19

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 07-Aug-19 12:11, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi Tom, > >> On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker >> wrote: >>> >>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

As far as I can tell (as a mostly observer who is now shepherding this document) the working group seemed very reluctant to get too specific about what were or were not constrained environments where fragmentation might (reasonably?) be expected (or not expected) to work. I fear that trying

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hi Tom, > On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker > wrote: >> >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC

[Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to