Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

day, August 15, 2019 10:21 AM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Alissa Cooper > ; Tom Herbert ; Joel Halpern > ; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; > int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs > > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on > draft-ietf-in

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

lpern ; > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG > ; intarea-chairs > Subject: RE: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Folks, > > Has anyone proposed text that: > > a) satisf

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> On Aug 15, 2019, at 7:26 AM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Joe, > > All things are fragile. That's one of life's realities. > > But some things are more fragile than others. Sure, but what is the measure of “more”, esp. vs how many other features are fragile and break *all* communication? Unles

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Brian E Carpenter ; Alissa Cooper ; Tom Herbert ; Joel Halpern ; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Well, there’

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

gt; ; intarea-chairs > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > On 07-Aug-19 12:11, Alissa Cooper wrote: >> Hi Tom, >> >>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >>>

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: RE: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Folks, Has anyone proposed text that: a) satisfies Alissa's request b) satisfies the WG If not, do

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

ginal Message- From: Brian E Carpenter Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:55 PM To: Alissa Cooper ; Tom Herbert Cc: Joel Halpern ; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:00 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Tom, > > On 7/8/19 04:50, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > >> > >> Hello, Alissa, > >> > >> Thanks for your comments! Inline... > >> > >> On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > >>>

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On August 7, 2019 at 10:20:24 AM, Ron Bonica ( rbonica=40juniper@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote: Will the reader parse our words with the same exactitude that we are parsing them? If not, we may be splitting a hair four ways. Right…but given that this document is a BCP, if the text is not clear in its

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Message- From: Brian E Carpenter Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:49 PM To: Joel M. Halpern Cc: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 17:07, Joe Touch wrote: > > >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Fernando Gont > > wrote: >> >> On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: >>> Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security >>> attacks. >>> >>> And if we treat them as such, the remainde

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

+1 Juniper Business Use Only -Original Message- From: Joel M. Halpern Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:49 PM To: Alissa Cooper ; Tom Herbert Cc: draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area ; IESG ; intarea-chairs Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:01 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: > > On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: >> Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. >> >> And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for >> anything. > > What I meant is that, wheth

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 16:30, Joe Touch wrote: > Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. > > And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for > anything. What I meant is that, whether one likes it or not, at the point something does not work (for s

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Things that don’t work aren’t always either deprecated or security attacks. And if we treat them as such, the remainder won’t be useful to anyone for anything. Joe On Aug 7, 2019, at 6:09 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> On 7/8/19 04:09, Joe Touch wrote: >> Yeah, but that’s the rub. >> >> If we a

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 7/8/19 04:09, Joe Touch wrote: > Yeah, but that’s the rub. > > If we accept the status-quo of a failure to deploy devices that allow a valid > protocol capability this way, we’ve basically deprecated it. IN a way, it's the operational reality that has deprecated Fragmention (and essentially I

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Tom, On 7/8/19 04:50, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> Hello, Alissa, >> >> Thanks for your comments! Inline... >> >> On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: >>> >>> --

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 6:17 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > > Hello, Alissa, > > Thanks for your comments! Inline... > > On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > > > -- > > DISCUSS: > > -

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 07-Aug-19 13:06, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Brian, I would think the text just above the paragraph Alissa quoted > would already cover what you ask for. It begins: > Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that > rely on IP fragmentation. Well yes, so the "unless"

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hello, Alissa, Thanks for your comments! Inline... On 6/8/19 23:30, Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > -- > DISCUSS: > -- > > Thanks for writing this doc

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Yeah, but that’s the rub. If we accept the status-quo of a failure to deploy devices that allow a valid protocol capability this way, we’ve basically deprecated it. That’s the bad idea that we’ve tried hard to avoid, IMO. Joe > On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:06 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > Brian, I

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Brian, I would think the text just above the paragraph Alissa quoted would already cover what you ask for. It begins: Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that rely on IP fragmentation. Yours, Joel On 8/6/2019 8:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 07-Aug-19 12:11

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On 07-Aug-19 12:11, Alissa Cooper wrote: > Hi Tom, > >> On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker >> wrote: >>> >>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

As far as I can tell (as a mostly observer who is now shepherding this document) the working group seemed very reluctant to get too specific about what were or were not constrained environments where fragmentation might (reasonably?) be expected (or not expected) to work. I fear that trying to

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Hi Tom, > On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker > wrote: >> >> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss >> >> When responding, please keep the subject li

Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker wrote: > > Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC li