Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:36 AM Mike Schinkel wrote: > > I have been following all the lengthy discussions on this topic hoping the > list would come to consensus. And I had been hoping someone would call the > following question but since no one else has here goes. > [...] > > Should we not:

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 6:54 AM, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:36 AM Mike Schinkel > wrote: > I have been following all the lengthy discussions on this topic hoping the > list would come to consensus. And I had been hoping someone would call

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Aleksander Machniak wrote: > On 18.08.2020 00:35, Mike Schinkel wrote: > > 1. Postpone inclusion of attributes until PHP 8.1 > > +1 > > I wonder why my suggestion (somewhere in this thread) didn't get any > attention. Is it because the ship had sailed or it's a

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 08:49, Aleksander Machniak wrote: > > I wonder why my suggestion (somewhere in this thread) didn't get any > attention. Is it because the ship had sailed or it's a terrible idea? > > declare( > SomeAttr, > AnotherAttr("Hello world") > ) > function someFunc() { > }

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

I really found your idea better than all. Keywork is already reserved, make sense on this context. Em ter, 18 de ago de 2020 03:49, Aleksander Machniak escreveu: > On 18.08.2020 00:35, Mike Schinkel wrote: > > 1. Postpone inclusion of attributes until PHP 8.1 > > +1 > > I wonder why my

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:36 AM Mike Schinkel wrote: > I have been following all the lengthy discussions on this topic hoping the > list would come to consensus. And I had been hoping someone would call the > following question but since no one else has here goes. > > The concept of adding

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 18.08.2020 00:35, Mike Schinkel wrote: > 1. Postpone inclusion of attributes until PHP 8.1 +1 I wonder why my suggestion (somewhere in this thread) didn't get any attention. Is it because the ship had sailed or it's a terrible idea? declare( SomeAttr, AnotherAttr("Hello world") )

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

I have been following all the lengthy discussions on this topic hoping the list would come to consensus. And I had been hoping someone would call the following question but since no one else has here goes. The concept of adding attributes to PHP seemed to sail to acceptance but, if you count

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:04 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: > Hi Benas, > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:34 PM Benas IML > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:25 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: > >> > >> The question is now if it's reasonable at all to change something for > >> 99% purely subjective reasons

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Benas, On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:34 PM Benas IML wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:25 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: >> >> The question is now if it's reasonable at all to change something for >> 99% purely subjective reasons (no other substantial fact has been put >> forward other than the VIM

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 12:25 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM Benjamin Eberlei > wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: > >> > >> Hi Benjamin, > >> > >> I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument. > >> It's true that annotations used to

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:32 AM Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: >> >> Hi Benjamin, >> >> I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument. >> It's true that annotations used to be enclosed in a docblock, but that >> is not an argument for saying

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 4:29 AM Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > Following the valid criticisms of us starting the vote too early, we have > closed the vote for this RFC for now. > > We look to restart the vote middle next week, so that we can close this > before the Beta 3 release on September 3rd. >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:29 PM Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:02 AM Peter Bowyer wrote: > >> On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 10:29, Benjamin Eberlei >> wrote: >> >>> We have updated the RFC at >>> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change with what we >>> think

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:02 AM Peter Bowyer wrote: > On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 10:29, Benjamin Eberlei > wrote: > >> We have updated the RFC at >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change with what we >> think >> covers all the discussion and arguments made in this and the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 10:29, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > We have updated the RFC at > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change with what we > think > covers all the discussion and arguments made in this and the previous > mailing list threads. > Thank you for putting in the work

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

(Resending, as my @php.net email address never makes it to the list) On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 07:42, Jakob Givoni wrote: > Can I make a suggestion? > > Make the new or updated RFC a primary vote on: "Should attributes be > enclosed in delimiters?" > This is what we're really discussing and that

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Benjamin, niedz., 16 sie 2020, 11:29 użytkownik Benjamin Eberlei napisał: > Following the valid criticisms of us starting the vote too early, we have > closed the vote for this RFC for now. > > We look to restart the vote middle next week, so that we can close this > before the Beta 3

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

As stated by the RFC: We argue why we should strongly favor a syntax with closing delimiter to > keep consistency with other parts of the language and propose to use #[], > @[], or the original << … >> instead. Given the desire for a closing delimiter, has `@:Attr;` been considered (or even

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:39 AM Jakob Givoni wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Benjamin Eberlei > wrote: > >> > >> The RFC says that > >> > The main concern is that @@ has no ending symbol and it's > inconsistent with the language > >> > that it would be the only declaration or

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Following the valid criticisms of us starting the vote too early, we have closed the vote for this RFC for now. We look to restart the vote middle next week, so that we can close this before the Beta 3 release on September 3rd. We have updated the RFC at

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 1:00 AM Benjamin Eberlei wrote: >> >> The RFC says that >> > The main concern is that @@ has no ending symbol and it's inconsistent >> > with the language >> > that it would be the only declaration or statement in the whole language >> > that has no ending termination

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> > Can I make a suggestion? > > Make the new or updated RFC a primary vote on: "Should attributes be > enclosed in delimiters?" Actually, let's add the word "block" in there: "Should attributes be enclosed in block delimiters?" Where block delimiters are "matching" (not interpreted in any

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> > We are working to integrate our arguments in favour of enclosing from that > Derick and I made in this and the previous thread into the RFC at the moment, > as the lack of them is a valid point of criticism. > > Additionally, Derick and I are waiting for word from Sara and Gabriel at the >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi all, > On Aug 15, 2020, at 18:27, kont...@beberlei.de wrote: > > The Voring RFC clearly states 2 weeks from the announcement on this list. Which rule was clearly not followed ... > If we consider the current vote an instance of human error ... which consideration I agree with ... > then i

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 16.08.20 01:07, Paul M. Jones wrote: /me furrows brow If I understand correctly, that means the currently-running vote overlaps with the discussion period? If so, that sounds (again) highly irregular. The proper thing to do here is a full reset: restart the 2-week discussion period at the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> Am 16.08.2020 um 01:08 schrieb Paul M. Jones : > > HI all, > > >> On Aug 15, 2020, at 18:00, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: >> >> Additionally, Derick and I are waiting for word from Sara and Gabriel at >> the moment, but we suggested to close and reset the vote to wait until the >> discussion

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

HI all, > On Aug 15, 2020, at 18:00, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > Additionally, Derick and I are waiting for word from Sara and Gabriel at > the moment, but we suggested to close and reset the vote to wait until the > discussion period is over on Tuesday to accommodate the criticism of us >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 11:47 PM Jakob Givoni wrote: > This will probably be my only contribution to this thread so I'll keep > it simple: > > Am I in favor of a revote? Yes > Can I vote myself? No > Do I think a revote will change anything? No > Have there been any good arguments for why

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

This will probably be my only contribution to this thread so I'll keep it simple: Am I in favor of a revote? Yes Can I vote myself? No Do I think a revote will change anything? No Have there been any good arguments for why attributes need an ending delimiter? No The RFC says that > The main

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> > I am for stopping the current voting too - because the results are very > different vs. the previous voting, they are almost random and the > discussion is still very hot which violates rule when voting can be > started. For what it's worth, I'm for resetting the voting, too, and restart it

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

I am for stopping the current voting too - because the results are very different vs. the previous voting, they are almost random and the discussion is still very hot which violates rule when voting can be started. My personal opinion on the attributes is: - allow not grouped syntax (with @@

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 16:07, tyson andre wrote: > I also want a revote. > I do too. Partly because of the rules, but mostly because this discussion has gone on so long I am now less clear about what is an "ending delimiter" and why it matters than before. And whether the begin/end delimiters

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Internals, > Next to Theodore, at least 4 other people in this mailing list have > stated that they think the RFC process should be followed as stated in > the RFC documents (with proper time for discussion and voting, which was > clearly not adhered to) and/or that there is important

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 15, 2020, at 04:54, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski > wrote: > > Currently you're the only one who wants to wipe the vote and there is no > much voices willing to follow your proposal. He's not alone. This whole re-vote on the attribute syntax has been highly irregular. This vote should

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 2:53 PM Björn Larsson wrote: > Den 2020-08-14 kl. 21:23, skrev Derick Rethans: > > > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > > > >> Derick was trying to be good and meet my beta3 deadline. > > And I even got that date wrong by a week. Oops. > > > >> Fortunately, I gave

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Den 2020-08-14 kl. 21:23, skrev Derick Rethans: On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: Derick was trying to be good and meet my beta3 deadline. And I even got that date wrong by a week. Oops. Fortunately, I gave him that deadline (while thinking RC1) knowing some kind of bullshit like

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 15.08.20 12:35, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski wrote: If you wanna follow democratic rules then first of all 4 is not a quorum. Secondly, you should be fine with additional voting about stopping current RFC vote, right? The RFC process has been agreed upon by the people involved with PHP. It

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Andreas, sob., 15 sie 2020, 12:24 użytkownik Andreas Leathley napisał: > On 15.08.20 11:54, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski wrote: > > I don't think there's anything significant changed in the RFC. I really > > doubt the vote result will change significantly. > > > > Currently you're the only one

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 15.08.20 11:54, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski wrote: I don't think there's anything significant changed in the RFC. I really doubt the vote result will change significantly. Currently you're the only one who wants to wipe the vote and there is no much voices willing to follow your proposal.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 10:54, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski < michal.brzuchal...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Theodore, > > pt., 14 sie 2020, 22:16 użytkownik Theodore Brown > napisał: > > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:23 PM Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > > > > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Theodore, pt., 14 sie 2020, 22:16 użytkownik Theodore Brown napisał: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:23 PM Derick Rethans wrote: > > > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > > > > > > Derick and Benjamin (and Sara), are these requests reasonable? If > > > > the RFC follows the discussion

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:23 PM Derick Rethans wrote: > On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > > > > Derick and Benjamin (and Sara), are these requests reasonable? If > > > the RFC follows the discussion period rule and contains all the > > > relevant information, I will be much more

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, 14 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > Derick was trying to be good and meet my beta3 deadline. And I even got that date wrong by a week. Oops. > Fortunately, I gave him that deadline (while thinking RC1) knowing > some kind of bullshit like this would come up and LO AND BEHOLD here > we

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:48 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:22 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > > I was very surprised that it went to vote less than six days after > > the discussion period started, right after the weekend no less, > > before I had a chance to submit my patch to

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:16 AM Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:22 PM Theodore Brown wrote: > > There's certainly been a lot of discussion in general about > > attributes. However, there was not a reasonable opportunity to either > > discuss the specific arguments made in

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:22 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > I was very surprised that it went to vote less than six days after > the discussion period started, right after the weekend no less, > before I had a chance to submit my patch to include the @: syntax. > > Yes. Derick fucked up the *letter*

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 8/14/2020 09:34, Paul M. Jones wrote: (That presumes the need for the RFC even exists, which I submit it does not -- but that's a separate topic.) The most frustrating part of this entire bike shed and devolution into finger pointing of rule breaking could have all been avoided if

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 14, 2020, at 09:16, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: > > What do you mean by defer exactly? Stop voting or reset the vote? We were > thinking of extending the vote until September 1st. For my part, "extending a vote that started too early to let it run longer" is not a reasonable remedy. The

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 2:22 PM Theodore Brown wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 8:41 PM Levi Morrison > wrote: > > > > So, a week+ early, then? Surely that means the current vote null > > > and void, to be reset entirely following a proper discussion period > > > -- one without concurrent

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 8:41 PM Levi Morrison wrote: > > So, a week+ early, then? Surely that means the current vote null > > and void, to be reset entirely following a proper discussion period > > -- one without concurrent voting. > > I just want to make sure I understand: there are people

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 14.08.20 03:41, Levi Morrison via internals wrote: I just want to make sure I understand: there are people who think we haven't discussed the syntax for attributes yet? I assume this is a serious email, but I can't fathom why anyone cares. We've discussed this subject soo much... I am kind

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> So, a week+ early, then? Surely that means the current vote null and void, to > be reset entirely following a proper discussion period -- one without > concurrent voting. I just want to make sure I understand: there are people who think we haven't discussed the syntax for attributes yet? I

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 13, 2020, at 10:44, Theodore Brown wrote: > > Indeed, it looks like you are right. I missed that Joe withdrew his > RFC on August 2nd: https://externals.io/message/111218#111288. The > declined RFC can still be viewed via a past page revision. [1] > > Apparently Derick then authored

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi internals, One thing I hadn't thought of before was how this would interact with parameters (with or without constructor property promotion). Many coding styles would end up putting annotations on the same line for parameters (in addition to closures) E.g. I've commonly done that and seen

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 8:47 AM Andreas Leathley wrote: > On 13.08.20 15:17, Theodore Brown wrote: > > The discussion thread you're referencing did not announce an RFC. Per > > the voting rules, a "Proposal is formally initiated by creating an > > RFC on PHP wiki and announcing it on the list".

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 13.08.20 15:17, Theodore Brown wrote: The discussion thread you're referencing did not announce an RFC. Per the voting rules, a "Proposal is formally initiated by creating an RFC on PHP wiki and announcing it on the list". After that there must be a minimum two week discussion period before

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Theodore, czw., 13 sie 2020 o 15:17 Theodore Brown napisał(a): > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:13 AM Michał Marcin Brzuchalski < > michal.brzuchal...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Theodore, > > > > śr., 12 sie 2020 o 18:36 Theodore Brown > napisał(a): > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Sara

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:13 AM Michał Marcin Brzuchalski wrote: > Hi Theodore, > > śr., 12 sie 2020 o 18:36 Theodore Brown napisał(a): > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:48 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > > > > > > > It has just come to

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Le Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:13:16 +0200, Michał Marcin Brzuchalski a écrit : > I'm personally also disappointed with the fact that in your RFC under the > primary > vote question "Are you okay with re-voting on the attribute syntax for PHP > 8.0?" > removing features like grouping ability was hidden.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Theodore, śr., 12 sie 2020 o 18:36 Theodore Brown napisał(a): > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:48 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > > > > > It has just come to my attention that this RFC was rushed to vote > > > after less than the minimum two

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:08 PM Rowan Tommins wrote: > > On 12 August 2020 19:03:02 BST, Jakob Givoni wrote: > >> > Is > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > on it's own an error? > >> > >> Yes. Basically this is an example of valid code in PHP 7 that will > >> break if @[] is adopted. > > > >Wow, that

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 12 August 2020 19:03:02 BST, Jakob Givoni wrote: >> > Is >> > >> > >> > >> > on it's own an error? >> >> Yes. Basically this is an example of valid code in PHP 7 that will >> break if @[] is adopted. > >Wow, that was unexpected. By what logic? >Also, how long must I wait before I can put a

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:03 PM Theodore Brown wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:26 AM Chris Riley wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 13:21, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Chris Riley wrote: > > > > > > > Quick question. > > > > > > > > What is the expected behaviour

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:48 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > > > It has just come to my attention that this RFC was rushed to vote > > after less than the minimum two week period required after it was > > brought up on list. Furthermore,

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 12.08.20 17:25, Sara Golemon wrote: Changing the syntax isn't a feature. It's a refinement. One of the things our long release process provides is a chance to be absolutely certain before we introduce syntax we'll come to regret later. The current RFC does not discuss the BC breaks of each

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Wed, 12 Aug 2020, Sara Golemon wrote: > Maybe compromise on adding time to the vote end period so that the > total is greater than 4 weeks? You'd asked to get this done by beta3, which I miscalculated as being tagged on August 25th. But as it's actually a week later I have no problem

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Den ons. 12. aug. 2020 kl. 18.29 skrev Paul M. Jones : > It's premature. If we can't follow our own rules, why even have them? Agreed -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:25, Sara Golemon wrote: > > If others agree that it's premature, we can stop the vote, > but I'm not inclined to disrupt the process over such a small variance. It's premature. If we can't follow our own rules, why even have them? -- Paul M. Jones

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:48 AM Theodore Brown wrote: > It has just come to my attention that this RFC was rushed to vote > after less than the minimum two week period required after it was > brought up on list. Furthermore, discussion was still very active at > that time - I certainly didn't

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:41 AM Derick Rethans wrote: >I've just opened the vote to make sure we don't make a terrible mistake > with using the @@ syntax for attributes: > > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change#voting > > The vote ends August 23, 24:00 UTC. It has just come

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 11.08.2020 16:54, Sara Golemon wrote: >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change#voting > Just chiming in to say all, y'all voting for @[...] are making a terrible > choice, and are you sure you're okay with it? It looks like the community is split, and it might actually be a

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:26 PM Andreas Leathley wrote: > On 11.08.20 18:07, Sara Golemon wrote: > > Writing this on PHP 7 (or any earlier version for that matter) would be > > valid syntax (ignored as a comment): > > > > #[SomeAttr(123)] > > function someFunc() {} > > > > That's what's meant by

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, at 11:54 AM, Theodore Brown wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:36 AM Rowan Tommins > wrote: > What will you grep for if you want to find all places where the Route > attribute is used (but not some other class named Route)? I'd go to the Route attribute class in my IDE,

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 17:54, Theodore Brown wrote: > > I think you may have misunderstood my point - it's not so much about > the leading symbols but about grouping. That sounds like a reason to vote No to grouping, which you already did:

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 11.08.20 18:38, Sara Golemon wrote: The perf penalty on 7 and earlier would probably be similar to existing state of the world. Parsing a docblock is easier to fetch from the runtime (as we actually store it), but docblocks contain more than just annotations, so some plus some minus. PHP 8+

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:36 AM Rowan Tommins wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 17:07, Theodore Brown wrote: > > > > > fact that the @@ syntax makes attributes easier to grep for. > > > > This can be a simple Yes or No. With @@ or @: you can type those > > symbols followed by the attribute name

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:38 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > PHP 8+ performance on theses would certainly be between though, and that's > an extra carrot to push users to upgrade. If annotations can't be written > until after users upgrade, then that carrot vanishes. > *PHP 8+ performance on these

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:25 AM Andreas Leathley wrote: > This would be a feature if libraries start parsing PHP token by token > and start supporting the #[] syntax for the 7.x versions of PHP - then > early adoption would be possible and it would be a real feature. But it > seems unclear if

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 17:07, Theodore Brown wrote: > > I would suggest "Kinds of symbols used". > > @@ is easier since it only uses one kind of symbol, rather than > switching between two or three symbols which are often on different > sides of the keyboard. > Honestly, this feels about as

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 11.08.20 18:07, Sara Golemon wrote: Writing this on PHP 7 (or any earlier version for that matter) would be valid syntax (ignored as a comment): #[SomeAttr(123)] function someFunc() {} That's what's meant by Forward Compatibility. Library/Framework authors could aggressively adopt

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:07 AM guilhermebla...@gmail.com < guilhermebla...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'd like to explain my rationale. Most of the time I end up using > "#[todo] Whatever" while documenting my code... my intentions are "# > [todo] ...", but you know... missing that space char doesn't

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Rowan Tommins wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 16:31, Theodore Brown wrote: > > > Anyway, please do add easy typeability to the matrix > > How would you measure "easy typability"? On what keyboard layout? > Would you write "Yes" and "No", or "quite easy", or

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi, On 11/08/2020 12:10, Chris Riley wrote: > What is the expected behaviour of: > > @[Bar()]; > class Foo {} > > That would appear to be valid code and for the difference of a single ; > does wildly different things, assuming there is a function Bar defined > somewhere. (and only by the fact

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 16:31, Theodore Brown wrote: > > How does @@ come out worse? Seems clear enough to me: > Additionally, on a US English/US International keybaord, Shift-2 (for @) > is an awkward combination to type with the pinky and middle finger of > your left hand. (Note that this

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

> On Aug 11, 2020, at 09:54, Sara Golemon wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:41 AM Derick Rethans wrote: > >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change#voting >> >> > Just chiming in to say all, y'all voting for @[...] are making a terrible > choice, and are you sure

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 16:07, guilhermebla...@gmail.com < guilhermebla...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'd like to explain my rationale. Most of the time I end up using > "#[todo] Whatever" while documenting my code... my intentions are "# > [todo] ...", but you know... missing that space char doesn't

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:37 AM Derick Rethans wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Theodore Brown wrote: > > > A second downside of @[] that doesn't appear to have been discussed > > yet is typability. On my keyboard, it requires four different keys on > > different sides of the keyboard, whereas @@

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

Hi Sara, I'd like to explain my rationale. Most of the time I end up using "#[todo] Whatever" while documenting my code... my intentions are "# [todo] ...", but you know... missing that space char doesn't break anything today... In any case, BC is broken and FC would also not work. Now I assume

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:41 AM Derick Rethans wrote: > https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change#voting > > Just chiming in to say all, y'all voting for @[...] are making a terrible choice, and are you sure you're okay with it? We have options with varying degrees of backward

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 14:15, Peter Bowyer wrote: > Anyone? > > Why is the discussion fixated on [] rather than ()? > Elsewhere, Derick clarified that he sees a "conceptual/logical" difference between brackets around just the argument list and the brackets around the whole expression, rather

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On 11.08.20 15:15, Lynn wrote: If typability really matters, we should've deprecated the backtick version to run things. We also seem to forget about readability. @@ makes things really hard to read for me as it draws attention, the same goes for <> being written as such, with spaces it's fine.

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Theodore Brown wrote: > A second downside of @[] that doesn't appear to have been discussed > yet is typability. On my keyboard, it requires four different keys on > different sides of the keyboard, whereas @@ just requires two keys. They're the same on a US English/US

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 14:16, Lynn wrote: > In terms of @[] typability, my IDE auto completes the ] when I type [. > I really, really, hate when editors and IDEs do that, and switch off every variant of it I can find in the settings. Either it will get it wrong because I'm editing code not

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:03 PM Theodore Brown wrote: > A second downside of @[] that doesn't appear to have been discussed > yet is typability. On my keyboard, it requires four different keys > on different sides of the keyboard, whereas @@ just requires two keys. > If typability really

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 at 15:41, Peter Bowyer wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 at 14:59, Derick Rethans wrote: > >> I did answer that as a reply to Rowan: >> >> https://externals.io/message/111312#111346 > > > I'm with Rowan's response to you: > https://externals.io/message/111312#111354 > > What

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:26 AM Chris Riley wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 13:21, Derick Rethans wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Chris Riley wrote: > > > > > Quick question. > > > > > > What is the expected behaviour of: > > > > > > @[Bar()]; > > > class Foo {} > > > > That will error out

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 13:21, Derick Rethans wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Chris Riley wrote: > > > Quick question. > > > > What is the expected behaviour of: > > > > @[Bar()]; > > class Foo {} > > That will error out in PHP 8, with: > > Parse error: syntax error, unexpected token ";" in

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020, Chris Riley wrote: > Quick question. > > What is the expected behaviour of: > > @[Bar()]; > class Foo {} That will error out in PHP 8, with: Parse error: syntax error, unexpected token ";" in Standard input code on line 2 cheers, Derick -- PHP 7.4 Release Manager Host

Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Shorter Attribute Syntax Change

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 12:40, Matteo Beccati wrote: > Hi, > > On 11/08/2020 12:10, Chris Riley wrote: > > What is the expected behaviour of: > > > > @[Bar()]; > > class Foo {} > > > > That would appear to be valid code and for the difference of a single ; > > does wildly different things,

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