Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
Hannes Magnusson schrieb: Speaking of QA people, how about crediting those who are actually working on QA and removing the names who haven't been around for years (I don't even recognized most of those names)? How do you recommend measuring who deserves credit? -- Sebastian Bergmann http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ GnuPG Key: 0xB85B5D69 / 27A7 2B14 09E4 98CD 6277 0E5B 6867 C514 B85B 5D69 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 13:16, Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hannes Magnusson schrieb: Speaking of QA people, how about crediting those who are actually working on QA and removing the names who haven't been around for years (I don't even recognized most of those names)? How do you recommend measuring who deserves credit? By reading the PHP-QAT Goals page and checking who actually is actively working on these things. High on my list would be Jani, Zoe, Tony, Felipe, Jani, Felipe, Tony, Zoe and Jani. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Hannes Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 13:16, Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hannes Magnusson schrieb: Speaking of QA people, how about crediting those who are actually working on QA and removing the names who haven't been around for years (I don't even recognized most of those names)? How do you recommend measuring who deserves credit? By reading the PHP-QAT Goals page and checking who actually is actively working on these things. High on my list would be Jani, Zoe, Tony, Felipe, Jani, Felipe, Tony, Zoe and Jani. What's about Sanjay Mantoor, Feliix dV or all the other test fest attendees continuing their work after the end of the test fest? I'm not sure I like the idea of a strong credits page, it creates ego related issues which are not helping. A general page with the list of the QA contributors or coordinators (@Zoe, dictactor-like ;) would be better and more flexible. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
Hannes Magnusson wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 13:16, Sebastian Bergmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hannes Magnusson schrieb: Speaking of QA people, how about crediting those who are actually working on QA and removing the names who haven't been around for years (I don't even recognized most of those names)? How do you recommend measuring who deserves credit? By reading the PHP-QAT Goals page and checking who actually is actively working on these things. High on my list would be Jani, Zoe, Tony, Felipe, Jani, Felipe, Tony, Zoe and Jani. Instead of repeating me and Tony and Felipe, I'd put the people who write all those tests quite high on the list. And just leave me out of it. :D --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 14:54, Pierre Joye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's about Sanjay Mantoor, Feliix dV or all the other test fest attendees continuing their work after the end of the test fest? Sure, after having proven themselves to be worth it for some period of time, not like the ones who commit and bail. I'm not sure I like the idea of a strong credits page, it creates ego related issues which are not helping. A general page with the list of the QA contributors or coordinators (@Zoe, dictactor-like ;) would be better and more flexible. Sounds like a great idea. If we can get that ridiculous credit list away I bet some people will start doing something about the sadness that overwhelms the current website. From the looks of things people are treating that website like a deadly decease which they don't want to get near to and believe its goal is to be a QAT website (when in fact no such team exists) and rather then give it love go of and create other teams to get credit. My end-goal here is to face the facts: Quality assurance is about testing, providing builds for people to test on, look into bugs and everything along those lines. snaps.php.net, downloads.php.net/~randomguy2/some-rc, windows.php.net, pecl4windows.php.net, ubuntu.php.net, 64bit.php.net qa.php.net should be the center of it all. The existing servers would obviously do the actual heavy-lifting (doing the builds/downloads) but it should all be linked from qa. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
hi, On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Hannes Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My end-goal here is to face the facts: Quality assurance is about testing, providing builds for people to test on, look into bugs and everything along those lines. snaps.php.net, downloads.php.net/~randomguy2/some-rc, windows.php.net, pecl4windows.php.net, ubuntu.php.net, 64bit.php.net qa.php.net should be the center of it all. It is not necessary to bring this FUD here or in this discussion. As I already told you that what belongs to qa.php.net can be in qa.php.net as well, but windows.php.net has other reasons to exits, reasons that I already explained many times. Cheers, -- Pierre http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
On Fri, 2008-10-31 at 14:54 +0100, Pierre Joye wrote: I'm not sure I like the idea of a strong credits page, it creates ego related issues which are not helping. A general page with the list of the QA contributors or coordinators (@Zoe, dictactor-like ;) would be better and more flexible. I'm fine with that, too, but we should mention that site on the credits page and probably some key persons like Zoe (similar to what we do with the docs). johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace separator and whining
Hi I have tried to collect the various opinions on resolution order into a single RFC: http://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceresolution Proactive damage control: I have also included some discussion on how the removable of function/ constants would affect the question of namespace resolution order choices. Lets not use this to get back on to the topic of the namespace separator and instead focus on the namespace resolution for now. First lets get an RFC that documents all approaches for namespace resolution in perfect shape. Divide and conquer. Furthermore, we have all noticed that the participation on the list has increased a lot in the recent weeks. As a result I ask everybody to restrain themselves a bit more. Try to not reply on an impulse, maybe wait a few hours before posting. This way we might reduce redundant replies, also the quality of posts will hopefully be higher so less misconceptions will need to be cleared later (and misconceptions have a way to spiral into flamewars). regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
Hi, So some core developers as well as lurking end users have noted that the traffic on this list prevents them from being able to follow this list. This is obviously a huge problem since this mailinglist is supposed to be our primary discussion and decision making tool. I had a chat about this with Zoe, Stephan (of symonfy fame) and Pierre at IPC. In this discussion I got the following idea (note that I am listing the names here in order to credit them in this idea, not because they necessarily endorse it): What if we have two lists for internal discussions. One which is just as open as the current one and one that is moderated. People with commit karma for php-src (and maybe also phpdoc) get unmoderated access. However this obviously creates the issue that the community and newcomers will have a much harder time to get in contact with the core development team. As the list is moderated, it would require people to manually allow the given posts. This creates a bottleneck which would also create considerable work for those moderators. Here I come to the key part of my idea. We would allow every PHP usergroup to also appoint one person that gets unmoderated access to the list. This enables members of the usergroup to feed their ideas via that person directly to the list, taking load of the list moderators and ensuring that things a given UG deem important are not lost in this process. Furthermore this intermediate step would serve to throttle the traffic and make the numbers of posters (their writing style and expertise) more easily transparent to other posters (but more importantly to the readers). I am sure this will help reduce misunderstandings and more importantly result in a more friendly tone (its just natural for people to feel overwhelmed by too large a crowd). As a side bonus, we strengthen UGs around the world. This will hopefully lead to better communication channels between internals and active community members. It will certainly ease the organization of future testfests (or docfrenzy's) as we will then have contact people to talk to as well as more of an incentive for people to join their local UG. I would not want to try to come to a closed definition of what constitutes a UG. Lets just create an interface were people can register their UG and manage the email address for the contact person (and maybe a few other things like their website etc). People can create physical UGs as well as virtual UGs for all I care. If we notice that this liberal approach gets abused (people faking UGs to get direct access and more voting rights) we can decide on taking some protective measures. But for now lets just assume that everybody in the community understands the beauty of such a liberal approach. --- Just like in my previous email. Please all try to focus on sending high quality replies to this list. So lets all restrain ourselves and wait a bit longer than usual before replying. Maybe someone else will already make the point you want to make and in the mean time you can think things over and optimize your message. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: I have published the above text as an RFC on the wiki .. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/managinglisttraffic -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
Hi Lukas, Here I come to the key part of my idea. We would allow every PHP usergroup to also appoint one person that gets unmoderated access to the list. Great idea! Lets just create an interface were people can register their UG and manage the email address for the contact person (and maybe a few other things like their website etc). We have this already on php.net, no? But for now lets just assume that everybody in the community understands the beauty of such a liberal approach. There should be a similar scheme for teams that develop major PHP applications IMHO. Those developers are key. - Steph -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
Hi Lukas Sounds like a good idea to channel the volume on this list. I was wondering, would the usergroup part be a replacement for the moderated messages by regular users or would it be an addition to it? I mean, we should better start promoting this one moderator-per- usergroup to usergroups worldwide, because moderating regular users will still generate quite some additional work. Not all users who have ideas/questions worth asking are involved in a user group too. Anyhow, I'm up for an idea along these lines. Regards, Felix Op 31-okt-08, om 19:23 heeft Lukas Kahwe Smith het volgende geschreven: Hi, So some core developers as well as lurking end users have noted that the traffic on this list prevents them from being able to follow this list. This is obviously a huge problem since this mailinglist is supposed to be our primary discussion and decision making tool. I had a chat about this with Zoe, Stephan (of symonfy fame) and Pierre at IPC. In this discussion I got the following idea (note that I am listing the names here in order to credit them in this idea, not because they necessarily endorse it): What if we have two lists for internal discussions. One which is just as open as the current one and one that is moderated. People with commit karma for php-src (and maybe also phpdoc) get unmoderated access. However this obviously creates the issue that the community and newcomers will have a much harder time to get in contact with the core development team. As the list is moderated, it would require people to manually allow the given posts. This creates a bottleneck which would also create considerable work for those moderators. Here I come to the key part of my idea. We would allow every PHP usergroup to also appoint one person that gets unmoderated access to the list. This enables members of the usergroup to feed their ideas via that person directly to the list, taking load of the list moderators and ensuring that things a given UG deem important are not lost in this process. Furthermore this intermediate step would serve to throttle the traffic and make the numbers of posters (their writing style and expertise) more easily transparent to other posters (but more importantly to the readers). I am sure this will help reduce misunderstandings and more importantly result in a more friendly tone (its just natural for people to feel overwhelmed by too large a crowd). As a side bonus, we strengthen UGs around the world. This will hopefully lead to better communication channels between internals and active community members. It will certainly ease the organization of future testfests (or docfrenzy's) as we will then have contact people to talk to as well as more of an incentive for people to join their local UG. I would not want to try to come to a closed definition of what constitutes a UG. Lets just create an interface were people can register their UG and manage the email address for the contact person (and maybe a few other things like their website etc). People can create physical UGs as well as virtual UGs for all I care. If we notice that this liberal approach gets abused (people faking UGs to get direct access and more voting rights) we can decide on taking some protective measures. But for now lets just assume that everybody in the community understands the beauty of such a liberal approach. --- Just like in my previous email. Please all try to focus on sending high quality replies to this list. So lets all restrain ourselves and wait a bit longer than usual before replying. Maybe someone else will already make the point you want to make and in the mean time you can think things over and optimize your message. regards, Lukas Kahwe Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS: I have published the above text as an RFC on the wiki .. http://wiki.php.net/rfc/managinglisttraffic -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
A simpler approach might be to just make the mailing list software enforce a 1 email per 24-hour day per user. It would require a bit more upfront work to munge the software, but wouldn't require any ongoing effort. Moderation can get messy since it isn't simply spam we or off-topic messages we are trying to control here, it is the volume, quality and timeliness of on-topic messages. I'm not sure moderation is the answer to that. We need a behavioural change here. -Rasmus -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Friday 31 October 2008 20:30:13 Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: A simpler approach might be to just make the mailing list software enforce a 1 email per 24-hour day per user. It would require a bit more upfront work to munge the software, but wouldn't require any ongoing effort. Moderation can get messy since it isn't simply spam we or off-topic messages we are trying to control here, it is the volume, quality and timeliness of on-topic messages. I'm not sure moderation is the answer to that. We need a behavioural change here. -Rasmus Well, I don't think that won't work. There are cases where one user replied to multiple mails in a short time without fighting, just explaining and discussiong, and you don't want to block that - as well as it wouldn't stop random people from suggesting dropping the $ from variables, making the namespace separator configurable etc. IMO, it's the volume of people, not the volume of messages, that is the main problem here. Regards, Stefan -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 20:30, Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A simpler approach might be to just make the mailing list software enforce a 1 email per 24-hour day per user. It would require a bit more upfront work Thats not going to work, we often have multiple threads going on. Even if it was limited to one post per thread every 24hour people would simply create new threads about the same topic. Restricting the amount of mail is no solution, just causes annoyances. to munge the software, but wouldn't require any ongoing effort. Moderation can get messy since it isn't simply spam we or off-topic messages we are trying to control here, it is the volume, quality and timeliness of on-topic messages. I'm not sure moderation is the answer to that. We need a behavioural change here. Behavioural change is desperately needed, and I think developers should lead by example. One way to to that is to add a new internal-core@ mailinglist which is read-only to the world, and writeable by people with appropriate karma. That list would be dedicated for _development_ discussion (including implementation, patches, edge-case voting and such things) and would include posts like are going on between greg, stas and dmitry, and posts which are going on between release managers and individual developers. This way we keep _everything_ in the open and maintain a high quality on-topic discussions. external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. However, those who simply do not have the time to read over the entire thing have a specific low-traffic list which they can easily follow. For people not with write privileges they can still chime in by forwarding the posts to internals@ and give their 2cents. Another indirect advantage is when docwriters mail in asking what exactly something does, and if it really is meant to work that way, the thread is obviously coming from internal guy and therefore has a better chance of getting answers (rather then the usual ignore since apparently think he is just a troll). I cannot see any disadvantages here. I have faith in our developers. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
Hannes Magnusson wrote: Behavioural change is desperately needed, and I think developers should lead by example. One way to to that is to add a new internal-core@ mailinglist which is read-only to the world, and writeable by people with appropriate karma. That list would be dedicated for _development_ discussion (including implementation, patches, edge-case voting and such things) and would include posts like are going on between greg, stas and dmitry, and posts which are going on between release managers and individual developers. This way we keep _everything_ in the open and maintain a high quality on-topic discussions. external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. However, those who simply do not have the time to read over the entire thing have a specific low-traffic list which they can easily follow. This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. -Rasmus -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] Restructuring the QA team
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 18:57, Johannes Schlüter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-10-31 at 14:54 +0100, Pierre Joye wrote: I'm not sure I like the idea of a strong credits page, it creates ego related issues which are not helping. A general page with the list of the QA contributors or coordinators (@Zoe, dictactor-like ;) would be better and more flexible. I'm fine with that, too, but we should mention that site on the credits page and probably some key persons like Zoe (similar to what we do with the docs). Hence my list of favourite names. And rather then calling it Quality Assurance Team (which indicates they are awesome and do all the QA work) the headline needs to be a bit more modest. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 20:59, Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hannes Magnusson wrote: Behavioural change is desperately needed, and I think developers should lead by example. One way to to that is to add a new internal-core@ mailinglist which is read-only to the world, and writeable by people with appropriate karma. That list would be dedicated for _development_ discussion (including implementation, patches, edge-case voting and such things) and would include posts like are going on between greg, stas and dmitry, and posts which are going on between release managers and individual developers. This way we keep _everything_ in the open and maintain a high quality on-topic discussions. external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. However, those who simply do not have the time to read over the entire thing have a specific low-traffic list which they can easily follow. This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. I have more faith in our devs then that. And I doubt you would unsubscribe, you care to much (and one of the few devs I've seen to reply to posts on php-general@ and then pear-dev@ the next day..). Most of us do. You would probably filter those posts into a different reading priority, but you would still browse through it. I expect bunch of silent listeners to unsubscribe from internals@ and subscribe to internals-core@ and I can even see some devs only subscribed to internals-core@ but I have no doubt that over 51% would stay stay subscribed to internals@ and would forward interesting discussions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. I'd also be concerned about patch submissions. Would we leave that on internals@ still, or create yet another list, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- /Daniel P. Brown http://www.parasane.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ask me about our current hosting/dedicated server deals! -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 21:13, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 2:59 PM, Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. I'd also be concerned about patch submissions. Would we leave that on internals@ still, or create yet another list, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Read the whole thread before posting please: external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Hannes Magnusson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read the whole thread before posting please: external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. I have been reading the entire thread, Hannes. I do not have any message that includes that quote. If you'd forward that message to me off-list, I'd be more than happy to read it. -- /Daniel P. Brown http://www.parasane.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] || [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ask me about our current hosting/dedicated server deals! -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] Re: keeping traffic on this list manageable
Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: Hi, So some core developers as well as lurking end users have noted that the traffic on this list prevents them from being able to follow this list. This is obviously a huge problem since this mailinglist is supposed to be our primary discussion and decision making tool. snip Personally, I'm an end user who reads the list because I care about the direction PHP is taking. However, I have rarely had the need to post to any of the mailing lists. In any case, the traffic on the list is not a problem for me - because I access it through NNTP (news.php.net) and it never clogs my inbox. I personally think mailing lists are an awful way to maintain a set of many concurrent discussion threads, and NNTP is far superior. If you severely dislike receiving a lot of irrelevant e-mail, then maybe give news.php.net a try instead? That way, you can just browse the lists in a threaded view whenever you feel like it. Works well for me, anyway - but then, I'm not a PHP developer, so maybe the story is different. Jeremy -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, 2008-10-31 at 21:13 +0100, Hannes Magnusson wrote: This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. I have more faith in our devs then that. And I doubt you would unsubscribe, you care to much (and one of the few devs I've seen to reply to posts on php-general@ and then pear-dev@ the next day..). Most of us do. You would probably filter those posts into a different reading priority, but you would still browse through it. I assume some people would still be subscribed to it but just scroll over subjects from time to time with little interest, which might be frustrating to worthfull new contributors. Additionally I guess it would split discussions, so a core person proposes something to internals-readonly, then discussions happen on both lists with some cross-postings and some mails of a thread missing in one list - sounds annoying. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On 31 Oct 2008, at 19:59, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: Hannes Magnusson wrote: Behavioural change is desperately needed, and I think developers should lead by example. One way to to that is to add a new internal-core@ mailinglist which is read-only to the world, and writeable by people with appropriate karma. That list would be dedicated for _development_ discussion (including implementation, patches, edge-case voting and such things) and would include posts like are going on between greg, stas and dmitry, and posts which are going on between release managers and individual developers. This way we keep _everything_ in the open and maintain a high quality on-topic discussions. external patches and general discussions would still be on the internals@ list, as it would be the main discussion list. However, those who simply do not have the time to read over the entire thing have a specific low-traffic list which they can easily follow. This is the same as just making internals@ read-only. Once we have an internals-core, many core people will just unsubscribe from the internals list. I know I probably would. And once the core developers no longer read it, it becomes php-general2 and it ends up excluding people from the development process. Users can still use reply on the internals list, so the poster can still receive responses rather than relying on them being subscribed to the internals list. Scott -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] keeping traffic on this list manageable
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 23:46, Johannes Schlüter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-10-31 at 21:13 +0100, Hannes Magnusson wrote: I have more faith in our devs then that. [snip a good chunk of stuff] Additionally I guess it would split discussions, so a core person proposes something to internals-readonly, then discussions happen on both lists with some cross-postings and some mails of a thread missing in one list - sounds annoying. A 'core person' is exactly the guy who I have faith in. If 'core person' cannot respect the community he should be booted from php.net ASAP! A real core guy is subscribed to both list (probably with internals@ with slightly lower reading priority though). I don't give *** what his/her name is, Sam Ruby, Andrei, Rasmus, Zeev (or any other PHP Group member), Johannes, Derick, Ilia (or any other release master), Jani, Tony, Zoy, Philip, Greg, Dmitry, Felipe, Melvyn Sopacua (have you heard that name before? checkout phpcredits()) I don't give a dmn what your name is. If you don't listen and respect the community you should be booted ASAP! I have a great deal of faith in the individual developer who actually cares. I have no faith in the enterprises or huge corporations who try to manipulate everything and everyone they touch. With a focused team we can do anything we want. With a team distracted of fuckedup politics and wtf problems we can't do anything. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
