Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On 11.05.2021 at 18:58, Kamil Tekiela wrote: > On 11.05.2021 at 18:44, Peter Bowyer wrote: > >> I doubt "bottom posting" is a term people who started online in the >> last 10 years know - with today/yesterday's example, my takeaway was >> the original poster didn't know what it meant. > > Yeah, the first time I heard about it is on this mailing list. I didn't > know it was a thing before, and I admit I might still not understand why it > is a thing. […] Bottom posting is nonsense. It is actually about posting comments inline, i.e. right below the context (a sentence, paragraph, etc.) you're referring to. And it's about snipping content which is irrelevant to your reply (of course that could be misused to rip parts of former replies out of context, but that should be avoided). Just read this message in a few weeks. Even if you don't remember the discussion, you likely don't need to read other messages of this thread, because it is self-contained. And this is the whole point of this style: to be able to read up on a (part of a) conversation later. For read-once contents, top posting can make perfect sense (although a chat may be more suitable for such conversations). -- Christoph M. Becker -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Am 11.05.2021 um 19:02 schrieb Calvin Buckley : > - almost all modern mail clients are threaded, it's trivial to view > context, so I want to see replies "above the fold" Funnily enough the fact the mail clients are threaded nowadays is a good reason for me to use inline replies with rigorously trimmed down context: Someone who is actively following the thread will have minimal overhead to see what I'm referring to and people new to the thread can scroll to previous messages to get up-to-speed. > - bottom posting goes against the grain of modern mail clients First of all: I'm advocating inline quoting, not bottom posting. I don't think this against the grain of modern clients. I have no problem going through my reply step by step, removing what is irrelevant to my reply and leave in what it relevant. At the same time it helps me to not forget something I wanted to answer. Yes, maybe mobile phones are a bit less well-equipped for this task but someone deciding to write detailed answers on a mobile phone should be willing to pay this price for the sake of the readers. > I personally top-post (as it's the default for all the mail clients I > use) when replying unless it's a point-by-point reply, in which case I > reply inline. I think you're pointing out exactly why a lot of long-time users of mailing lists prefer inline replies: Your personal (or even work) emails might often consist of nothing more than "I agree" or "Let's meet up", mailing lists are used for more in-depth discussions. This means that the threshold for writing to the mailing list should be higher, i.e. a mail will probably contain multiple parts like an introduction, an explanation and a conclusion or question. Therefore answers are often more complex too and reply to multiple points. Another reason I sometimes hear at work is that you can forward a top-posting emails more easily to someone new to a thread. But this applies much less to a mailing list as people are normally subscribed to the list already and even if not there is an archive of all messages they can check for older messages if necessary. Now while inline replies work for both point-by-point replies as well as short answers (you just strip down the original text to a minimum before adding your one-liner) the same is not true to top or bottom posting. They only work in simple cases unless you want to either copy/paste or (worse) paraphrase the original text within your answer. Both of these options are basically weaker versions of the inline quoting style (which as an additional bonus also support multiple levels of quoting). Sure, some answers can be simple enough for top/bottom posting, but then again you have to ask yourself: Is this interesting enough for the 100s of people on this mailing list? And if inline quoting works almost as well for simple answers, why not use it all the times so the reader does not have to switch reading modes? - Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 05:34:41PM +0100, Good Guy wrote: > With top posts people can go straight to the point raised by the poster. If > anyone is following the thread, he doesn't need 3 pages of previous posts. > All he needs is what is being posted by the poster in question. I completely agree -- which is why when I reply I remove redundant stuff so that only relevant lines from previous email are quoted to give context. The way that I look at it is: 100+ people are going to be reading what I write. If by spending 30 seconds trimming quotes so that it takes them 2 seconds to understand what I am saying rather than 4 seconds then I have saved the list 2 seconds times 100+ each - ie 200+ seconds which costs me 30 seconds -- so an overall win. ** BTW: a mutt user here - middle/bottom posting is easy. ** argue about the numbers if you wish, but that is the principle. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
I'm just going to say... - almost all modern mail clients are threaded, it's trivial to view context, so I want to see replies "above the fold" - bottom posting goes against the grain of modern mail clients - overall, it just feels like arbitrary preferences set decades ago; worst case it feels like hazing against people who don't use mutt/pine I personally top-post (as it's the default for all the mail clients I use) when replying unless it's a point-by-point reply, in which case I reply inline. I'm not bothered by bottom posting nor do I make a fuss when I see other conventions, but it's more inconvenient to read. (I also have to set my client to plain text manually per message - that's another can of worms...) On Mon, 2021-05-10 at 22:51 +0100, Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Hi Internals, > > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? > > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread > by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's > really > difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't > make > it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading > the > thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between > the > quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was > quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and > don't > handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they > read > from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients > defaulted > to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary > annoyance. > > If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of > the > message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the > default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous > message > on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and > screen > space. > > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide > the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top- > post. > > Regards, > Kamil -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
> I doubt "bottom posting" is a term people who started online in the last 10 years know - with today/yesterday's example, my takeaway was the original poster didn't know what it meant. Yeah, the first time I heard about it is on this mailing list. I didn't know it was a thing before, and I admit I might still not understand why it is a thing. All my life I have been used to "newest first". Whenever I encountered a website or an email that asked me to scroll for the newer content it upset me. Now I see that some developers prefer this style. It could also be the fault of user agents that don't scroll/hide the old content and force me to read it again.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Am 11.05.2021 um 18:42 schrieb Kamil Tekiela : > Compare the two messages from Sara, the first where she top posted and the > second where she bottom posted. Which one is more clear? > https://imgur.com/TUiHval The second one which shows me what Sara is referring to. Imagine it just said "I don't know what Mel is talking about" without you seeing what Mel said right away. > I completely agree with Good Guy. Top posting is just way more convenient. I disagree. What some people call inter-posting as way more convenient because it has the context of what you are referring to right next to your answer. And yes: People *should* trim down the context. It also forces you to go through the email and remove what is irrelevant. Every second you spend making your message clearer and quicker to digest will save many seconds on the reading end. - Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 22:52, Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. > I like bottom-posting or point-by-point replies, but would drop the rule and make the list a more welcoming place for newcomers. I doubt "bottom posting" is a term people who started online in the last 10 years know - with today/yesterday's example, my takeaway was the original poster didn't know what it meant. There's also English familiarity to account for. Peter
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On 11/05/2021 15:36, Sara Golemon wrote: On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:21 AM Chase Peeler wrote: On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:34 AM Mel Dafert wrote: (Gmail certainly can't, it can't even send non-HTML mails, and even with K-9 I have to remember doing it.) I’m sending this from gmail on my phone, so not sure what you are talking about. This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is talking about either. I decided to bottom-post and in HTML to see if it works here. I know it is going to cause unnecessary discussion about HTML on these forums/newsgroups or whatever they are called these days. -- With over 1.3 billion devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
And readable On Tue, May 11, 2021, 18:42 Kamil Tekiela wrote: > I completely agree with Good Guy. Top posting is just way more convenient. >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Compare the two messages from Sara, the first where she top posted and the second where she bottom posted. Which one is more clear? https://imgur.com/TUiHval I completely agree with Good Guy. Top posting is just way more convenient.
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
People are using smart phones these days so top posting is very convenient. As you say people don't read the entire thread so why keep them in the posts when replying? Surely, there are other means to get the gist of the discussion if one wants to be reminded about. On 11/05/2021 08:23, Pierre wrote: I'm opposed to dropping the bottom-posting rule, for the simple reason that you naturally read from top to bottom, and most people don't bother reading again the whole thread when they read a single answer. -- With over 1.3 billion devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
With top posts people can go straight to the point raised by the poster. If anyone is following the thread, he doesn't need 3 pages of previous posts. All he needs is what is being posted by the poster in question. People don't need the history of entire thread in one post because it is available by some other means. On 11/05/2021 08:11, Marco Pivetta wrote: Heck, even my phone can read top-posts, -- With over 1.3 billion devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:48 AM Michael Morris wrote: > If this list has ever had a "bike shed" issue, this would be it. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality > > > I agree, but it's within its own thread and not hijacking other ones, so no harm in discussing it. > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 10:01 AM Mel Dafert wrote: > > > >> This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel > is > > >> talking about either. > > >> > > >> > > >Gmail's web client is what I normally use, and have never had an issue > > with > > >it. > > > > Sorry for being unclear - I meant the Gmail android app. > > > > If the app does have an option for plaintext emails, I am not able to > find > > it. > > If it does, that might also be useful to document somewhere, so people > > like me can actually use it :) > > > > Even then, I also don't think it offers an option to bottom-post by > > default - which K-9 and Thunderbird do. > > (No idea about the Gmail web client - I don't use it regularly.) > > > > -- > > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > -- Chase Peeler chasepee...@gmail.com
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
If this list has ever had a "bike shed" issue, this would be it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 10:01 AM Mel Dafert wrote: > >> This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is > >> talking about either. > >> > >> > >Gmail's web client is what I normally use, and have never had an issue > with > >it. > > Sorry for being unclear - I meant the Gmail android app. > > If the app does have an option for plaintext emails, I am not able to find > it. > If it does, that might also be useful to document somewhere, so people > like me can actually use it :) > > Even then, I also don't think it offers an option to bottom-post by > default - which K-9 and Thunderbird do. > (No idea about the Gmail web client - I don't use it regularly.) > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Am 11.05.2021 um 17:01 schrieb Mel Dafert : >>> This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is >>> talking about either. >>> >> Gmail's web client is what I normally use, and have never had an issue with >> it. > > Sorry for being unclear - I meant the Gmail android app. > > If the app does have an option for plaintext emails, I am not able to find it. As long as the Android Gmail App includes a text/plain version alongside the html one, everything is fine. And as far as I can see (doing a quick and not too comprehensive test with a friend who has the app installed) it does, so no need to configure anything. - Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
> Le 11 mai 2021 à 09:11, Marco Pivetta a écrit : > > Sure, why not: email clients are decent enough to hide quoted sections > anyway > > Heck, even my phone can read top-posts, and the rest of the folks (reddit, > mostly) use https://externals.io/ anyway 路 > > Feel free to call me out for top-posting this Then, after a first top-post, someone comes and middle-post, and you have to guess whether they’re bottom-answering the top part or top-answering the bottom part. Or both. Sure, email clients are decent enough to “hide quoted sections” (which I read: “hide the mess”), but not to sort them. —Claude > > On Mon, May 10, 2021, 23:52 Kamil Tekiela wrote: > >> Hi Internals, >> >> Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? >> >> Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by >> top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's really >> difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't make >> it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading the >> thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the >> quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was >> quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't >> handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they read >> from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients defaulted >> to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary >> annoyance. >> >> If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the >> message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the >> default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message >> on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen >> space. >> >> Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? >> Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the >> previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. >> >> Regards, >> Kamil >> -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
>> This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is >> talking about either. >> >> >Gmail's web client is what I normally use, and have never had an issue with >it. Sorry for being unclear - I meant the Gmail android app. If the app does have an option for plaintext emails, I am not able to find it. If it does, that might also be useful to document somewhere, so people like me can actually use it :) Even then, I also don't think it offers an option to bottom-post by default - which K-9 and Thunderbird do. (No idea about the Gmail web client - I don't use it regularly.) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 10:36 AM Sara Golemon wrote: > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:21 AM Chase Peeler > wrote: > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:34 AM Mel Dafert wrote: > > > (Gmail certainly can't, it can't even send non-HTML mails, and even > with > > > K-9 I have to remember doing it.) > > > > > I’m sending this from gmail on my phone, so not sure what you are talking > > about. > > > > This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is > talking about either. > > Gmail's web client is what I normally use, and have never had an issue with it. For work I use outlook and I often do in-line replies as well. That's usually combined with a top post reply saying "see inline" since top posting is the convention everyone uses at work. I can also tell you it's much more difficult to go back through a long thread of emails when you have to read everything from the bottom up. I also wanted to address a few comments people have made around being told to top post. I've seen my fair share of snark on this board. Not once have I ever seen anyone make a big deal out of someone top posting. I don't even recall a time when someone replied JUST to tell them not to top post. I've only seen it presented as a gentle reminder as part of a reply on the actual topic. > -Sara > -- Chase Peeler chasepee...@gmail.com
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:21 AM Chase Peeler wrote: > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:34 AM Mel Dafert wrote: > > (Gmail certainly can't, it can't even send non-HTML mails, and even with > > K-9 I have to remember doing it.) > > > I’m sending this from gmail on my phone, so not sure what you are talking > about. > This plaintext reply sent via Gmail web client. I don't know what Mel is talking about either. -Sara
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:34 AM Mel Dafert wrote: > On 10 May 2021 23:57:51 CEST, Christian Schneider > wrote: > >No. > >Outlook is not modern. > > While I agree with this (and I also agree with keeping bottom-posting), I > feel like we could make this easier > for new contributors by giving some examples of which clients to use and > how to configure them. > What clients are people using that make this convenient? > On desktop, I assume Thunderbird can do this, and my web client (zimbra) > also can. > On mobile, I've settled with the beta version of K-9 - I don't know of any > other client that can do this. > (Gmail certainly can't, it can't even send non-HTML mails, and even with > K-9 I have to remember doing it.) I’m sending this from gmail on my phone, so not sure what you are talking about. > And please don't say that mobile clients don't matter - if we want to make > it easy for new people to join, > we should also make sure we support using mobile. > > Regards, > Mel > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List > To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Chase Peeler chasepee...@gmail.com
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
-1. Top posting encourages lazy email composition. One should put an ounce of thought into how one organizes a response. On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 4:52 PM Kamil Tekiela wrote: > > Hi Internals, > > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? > > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's really > difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't make > it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading the > thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the > quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was > quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't > handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they read > from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients defaulted > to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary > annoyance. > > If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the > message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the > default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message > on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen > space. > > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. > > Regards, > Kamil
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Den tir. 11. maj 2021 kl. 00.52 skrev Kamil Tekiela : > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. -1. I feel the same as Stas does here. -- regards, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Le 10/05/2021 à 23:51, Kamil Tekiela a écrit : Hi Internals, Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? I'm opposed to dropping the bottom-posting rule, for the simple reason that you naturally read from top to bottom, and most people don't bother reading again the whole thread when they read a single answer. Mail clients don't make it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Thunderbird doesn't hide anything. Bottom-posting makes reading the thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the quoted content. It's in natural reading order, most people do post trimming as well, which mean that they remove useless text and keep only quotes they reply to, which makes it even more natural to read. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't handle bottom-posting well. Not all mail clients, personally Thunderbird is a modern client, at least as modern as are the others, and mine does bottom-post per default. If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the message and then add a reply below Yes, that's the way ! forcing people to remove the default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen space. Then you mail client is evil and fights against you if it forces you to copy paste and rearrange. Regards, Kamil Regards, Pierre -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Sure, why not: email clients are decent enough to hide quoted sections anyway Heck, even my phone can read top-posts, and the rest of the folks (reddit, mostly) use https://externals.io/ anyway 路 Feel free to call me out for top-posting this On Mon, May 10, 2021, 23:52 Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Hi Internals, > > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? > > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's really > difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't make > it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading the > thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the > quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was > quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't > handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they read > from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients defaulted > to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary > annoyance. > > If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the > message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the > default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message > on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen > space. > > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. > > Regards, > Kamil >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On 10 May 2021 23:57:51 CEST, Christian Schneider wrote: >No. >Outlook is not modern. While I agree with this (and I also agree with keeping bottom-posting), I feel like we could make this easier for new contributors by giving some examples of which clients to use and how to configure them. What clients are people using that make this convenient? On desktop, I assume Thunderbird can do this, and my web client (zimbra) also can. On mobile, I've settled with the beta version of K-9 - I don't know of any other client that can do this. (Gmail certainly can't, it can't even send non-HTML mails, and even with K-9 I have to remember doing it.) And please don't say that mobile clients don't matter - if we want to make it easy for new people to join, we should also make sure we support using mobile. Regards, Mel -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Am 10.05.2021 um 23:51 schrieb Kamil Tekiela: Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? Please: no. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
Hi! No I don't agree. People can do whatever is convenient for them. Some will top-post; Some will bottom-post and some will inter-post. By interpost I mean people will try to respond to a post on a point by point basis. The thing is when you alone, you're free to do what is convenient to you and ignore the rest. However, here we have a community that needs to communicate, and we may want to make it convenient to others to read our messages, sometimes to people that are new to the discussion and need some context to understand and participate. And our experience on this list shows that top-posting does not serve this goal. So we decided to ask people to not top-post. -- Stas Malyshev smalys...@gmail.com -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
That would be great! I had an unpleasant experience with this "rule". You start disagreeing with someone regarding an RFC and suddenly it becomes a reason to be called out. Not to mention that when I was pointed to the internal rules and guidelines, bottom posting is not explicitly listed as a rule, but rather a suggestion, which then makes it even more annoying to have someone chastising you about it because it feels much more like the issue is not really how you're responding to the list, but rather the fact that you're in disagreement. On Mon, May 10, 2021, 23:52 Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Hi Internals, > > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? > > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's really > difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't make > it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading the > thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the > quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was > quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't > handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they read > from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients defaulted > to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary > annoyance. > > If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the > message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the > default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message > on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen > space. > > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. > > Regards, > Kamil >
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On 10 May 2021 22:51:49 BST, Kamil Tekiela wrote: >Hi Internals, > >Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? No. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Mon, May 10, 2021, at 5:08 PM, Good Guy wrote: > On 10/05/2021 23:00, Alain D D Williams wrote: > > Please do not change - keep bottom posting. > > > No I don't agree. People can do whatever is convenient for them. Some > will top-post; Some will bottom-post and some will inter-post. By > interpost I mean people will try to respond to a post on a point by > point basis. > > Frankly anything is acceptable to people as long as it gives a coherent > answer that is convincing! > > > People should learn to trim some part of the post that they are not > responding to like I have done here. It's true that all three methods have their pros and cons. The real problem comes when mixing both in the same thread, which gets stupidly confusing. In practice, inter-posting and bottom-posting are more mutually compatible, I find, than trying to mix inter-posting with top posting. I usually interpost myself, which is more compatible with bottom-posting. --Larry Garfield -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On 10/05/2021 23:00, Alain D D Williams wrote: Please do not change - keep bottom posting. No I don't agree. People can do whatever is convenient for them. Some will top-post; Some will bottom-post and some will inter-post. By interpost I mean people will try to respond to a post on a point by point basis. Frankly anything is acceptable to people as long as it gives a coherent answer that is convincing! People should learn to trim some part of the post that they are not responding to like I have done here. -- With over 1.3 billion devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 10:51:49PM +0100, Kamil Tekiela wrote: > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? Please do not change - keep bottom posting. > Bottom-posting makes reading the thread much more difficult too. I really find top posting highly confusing. Bottom (or rather interleaved) posting makes much more sense. > Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't handle > bottom-posting well. So: what you mean is that *your* MUA does not handle bottom posting. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 https://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: https://www.phcomp.co.uk/Contact.html #include -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Could we drop the bottom-posting rule?
No. Outlook is not modern. No. That's not the point, the missing context is. Sorry, could not resist ;-) - Chris > Am 10.05.2021 um 23:51 schrieb Kamil Tekiela : > > Hi Internals, > > Could we drop the bottom-posting rule? > > Almost all new contributors fall into this trap and reply to a thread by > top-posting, only to get chastised by someone else on the list. It's really > difficult to remember to delete the default reply. Mail clients don't make > it easy for us; it's hidden by default. Bottom-posting makes reading the > thread much more difficult too. The actual reply gets lost in between the > quoted content. I often get confused about what is new and what was > quoted. Many modern clients are designed to handle top-posting and don't > handle bottom-posting well. People are usually used to it and they read > from top to bottom. I don't know if in the past some mail clients defaulted > to bottom-posting but right now it just seems like an unnecessary > annoyance. > > If you want to quote someone then it makes sense to copy a part of the > message and then add a reply below, but forcing people to remove the > default reply from the mail client and then add the whole previous message > on top of your own reply isn't very productive. It wastes time and screen > space. > > Could we please change this rule or at least stop enforcing it? > Do people actually have mail clients that don't automatically hide the > previous conversation? If not, then I think we can let people top-post. > > Regards, > Kamil -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: https://www.php.net/unsub.php
