Re: [IPsec] DDoS puzzle: PRF vs Hash

2015-02-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: You are describing a situation where the server simply has multiple queues, I think. One for 20 bits, and probably one for each of 19,18,17,16, and then one for all solutions 16, including not supporting puzzles at all. Yes, but the queues are virtual, the server

Re: [IPsec] DDoS puzzle: PRF vs Hash

2015-01-30 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: I also had some concerns on the variance of the times. But then another thought came to me. Let's look on this issue from the other side. The responder will use puzzles only when it feels that it is under attack. It means, that there are a lot of (thouthands, tens of

Re: [IPsec] Initiator Identity in case of EAP

2015-01-29 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: I don't see how this can be done without breaking existing implementations, and therefore I am unhappy with the new sentence in -03, Another example is EAP authentication when the client identity in ID payload is not used. A responder that receives a new, unknown

[IPsec] Initiator Identity in case of EAP (was: My comments to the Null Authentication Method draft)

2015-01-27 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Nope. The IKE ID payloads needs to be used, and the EAP identity reqeuest and respond SHOULD NOT be used (from RFC7296 section 3.16): Note that since IKE passes an indication of initiator identity in the first message in the IKE_AUTH exchange, the responder

Re: [IPsec] My comments to the Null Authentication Method draft

2015-01-26 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Mon, 19 Jan 2015, Tero Kivinen wrote: In security considerations section there is text: Un-authenticated IKE sessions MUST only attempted when authenticated IKE sessions are not possible for the remote host and the only

Re: [IPsec] My comments to the Null Authentication Method draft

2015-01-26 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Hi Tero, thanks for your detailed review. Please see inline. I commented only the issues where we disagree with Paul. On the other hand same section says that ID_NULL SHOULD only be used with NULL authentication method. In which scenarios do you think ID_NULL

Re: [IPsec] WG Last Call on The NULL Authentication Method in IKEv2 Protocol draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth (fwd)

2015-01-20 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Valery suggests sending liveness checks to all IKE SA's that used AUTH_NONE. I suggested sending liveness checks only to those IKE SA's that used the same IP address, thus limiting the scope to a more likely pool of possible orphaned SA's by a remote that

Re: [IPsec] WG Last Call on The NULL Authentication Method in IKEv2 Protocol

2015-01-20 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: What is the purpose of installing a zillion unauthenticated protoport specific IPsec SA's over a single one? The abuse case here for unauthenticated clients is clear, thousands of SA's per IP in the botnet. I do not think anybody wants to install or allow zillion

[IPsec] My comments to the Null Authentication Method draft

2015-01-19 Thread Tero Kivinen
In section 2.2. it still says that ID presented MUST be ignored. I think this needs to be changed to SHOULD. There are valid cases where we would like to use the ID, for example we might want to assign the same ID same IP-address every time, just to make things easier. This does not mean we

Re: [IPsec] WG Last Call on The NULL Authentication Method in IKEv2 Protocol

2015-01-19 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: That was partially because Valery and I didn't fully agree. Which means it might not belong in this document. Initial Contact is addressed in the document already in its own section. The question for example is about CREATE_CHILD_SA. Which comes back to your point below

Re: [IPsec] Survey for WG interest in adopting draft-nagayama-ipsecme-ipsec-with-qkd

2014-12-15 Thread Tero Kivinen
Shota Nagayama writes: Though I replied that fallback mode might be treated as local policy and not to be negotiated at the beginning of IKE, now I notice a difference between fallback mode and other local policies, if my understanding is correct. In current IKE, after establishing the first

[IPsec] Survey for WG interest in adopting draft-mglt-ipsecme-clone-ike-sa

2014-11-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Hoffman writes: Greetings again. The Clone IKE SA proposal tries to optimize IKE SA setup in cases where VPN gateways have multiple interfaces and want to establish different SAs on the different interfaces without having to repeat the IKE authentication. Instead, they could clone a

Re: [IPsec] Survey for WG interest in adoptingdraft-mglt-ipsecme-clone-ike-sa

2014-11-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Thu, 27 Nov 2014, Valery Smyslov wrote: I think that the mechanism it describes is useful and could be used as a building block for several solutions. For example, it can be used in load-sharing scenario when there are some gateways with different IP addresses,

Re: [IPsec] Call for adoption: Client Puzzles

2014-10-13 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: Tero Kivinen kivi...@iki.fi wrote: 3) Client can also be smartphone, i.e. device which have quite a lot of CPU power and/or memory, but does not want to use it as it would increase the power usage so much that the battery life will be shortened

Re: [IPsec] A strategy against DoS/DDoS for IKE responders

2014-10-13 Thread Tero Kivinen
Nico Williams writes: On Sun, Oct 05, 2014 at 11:22:29PM +0300, Yoav Nir wrote: Now the responder has two options: (1) delete the entry in the half-open SA database, or (2) store the derived key, and keep the half-open SA another 9.5 seconds. (2) has the disadvantage that the

[IPsec] IKEv2 protocol race condition for auto start

2014-10-13 Thread Tero Kivinen
James Hulka writes: Dear IPsec Working Group, there is a race condition in the current IKEv2 protocol when 2 site peers are configured to automatically establish a IPsec tunnel. Both peers can successfully initiate the IKE_SAs which results in each peer having 2 options available for

Re: [IPsec] Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-06.txt (Signature Authentication in IKEv2) to Proposed Standard

2014-10-07 Thread Tero Kivinen
Johannes Merkle writes: thanks for updating the document. However, I'm not sure the first issue is solved. Sorry this has taken so long, having the IEEE, IETF, Vacation and RFC5996bis to taken care of before getting back to this draft. Tero Kivinen wrote on 20.07.2014 21:02: Changed

[IPsec] [IANA #785032] General Request for Assignment (ikev2-parameters)

2014-10-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
Got following request form IANA, and approved it. This is just for information in case someone is interested. Amanda Baber via RT writes: We have another request for an IKEv2 Configuration Payload Attribute Type. If this is OK, how should we fill in the Multi-Valued and Length columns? ===

Re: [IPsec] Call for adoption: Client Puzzles

2014-09-30 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: I think that this is the best process; I think we need to think about the problem deeper. It would be nice if it could be made to work; but I suspect that may be equivalent to the CAPTCHA problem. I do think the problem is easier than that... I think the solution

Re: [IPsec] Call for adoption: Client Puzzles

2014-09-26 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: Wouldn't it be better to use IKEv2 session resumption (RFC 5723) for those clients coming back. I.e if you resume old existing session then you do not need to do puzzle... And after the resume, the ticket is usually changed again, so the ticket would always be fresh.

Re: [IPsec] Call for adoption: Client Puzzles

2014-09-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: Yoav Nir ynir.i...@gmail.com wrote: One proposal that I kind of liked (and I’m sorry I’ve forgotten who suggested it) was to relegate the puzzle to a second line of defense, through the use of some kind of anti-dos ticket. The ticket would be a

Re: [IPsec] Typos in draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-04

2014-09-23 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: In Section 3.8 (Authentication Payload) the description of the 3-octet RESERVED field is absent. I think it is a typo, as in all other cases, when reserved field is present in payload (KE, ID, TS, CP), its description is given. Fix sent to the RFC editor during the

[IPsec] More nits in draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-04

2014-09-23 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 1. Section 3.15.1: o APPLICATION_VERSION - The version or application information of the IPsec host. This is a string of printable ASCII characters that is NOT null terminated. NOT is uppercase. Although it might be an intention to ephasise the

Re: [IPsec] Typos in draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-04

2014-09-23 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: o Selector Length - Specifies the length of this Traffic Selector substructure including the header. No indication of how Selector Length (it is 2 octets) should be treated. Fix sent in for the rfc-editor... -- kivi...@iki.fi

[IPsec] Call for adoption: Client Puzzles

2014-09-22 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: This is a call for adopting draft-nir-ipsecme-puzzles-00 as a WG document. Please respond to this mail with a Yes or No and a short rationale, at latest by Friday Sep. 26. I think this problem is something we should consider, i.e start working on the solution to it. I

Re: [IPsec] Mandatory Public Key based authentication with EAP

2014-09-22 Thread Tero Kivinen
Tero Kivinen writes: Yaron Sheffer writes: This is why RFC 5998 is listed as updates 5996. So RFC 5998 does apply here. Note that it only applies in specific cases, and for specific EAP methods. Yes, we should have updated the text in RFC 5996 to refer to 5998, but we forgot. Sigh

[IPsec] IKEv1 Interop issue: Transform number mismatch

2014-09-11 Thread Tero Kivinen
dharmanandana pothulam writes: We are facing one IKEv1 interop issue. The issue is that Responder (checkpoint SeGW) not retaining the transform numbers received from the initiator (huawei base station), SeGW replies with its own transform number. IKEv1 was obsoleted by IKEv2 in 2005, you

Re: [IPsec] Mandatory Public Key based authentication with EAP

2014-09-11 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: This is why RFC 5998 is listed as updates 5996. So RFC 5998 does apply here. Note that it only applies in specific cases, and for specific EAP methods. Yes, we should have updated the text in RFC 5996 to refer to 5998, but we forgot. Sigh. Hmm.. I hope this does

[IPsec] Call for adoption: The NULL Authentication Method in IKEv2 Protocol

2014-09-11 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: This is a call for adopting draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth as a WG document. Please respond to this mail with a Yes or No and a short rationale, at latest by Friday Sep. 12. I have not really had time to concentrate on this topic yet, but I think this kind of

[IPsec] Question Regarding IKEv2 RFC5996 Use of NO_PROPOSAL_CHOSEN and INVALID_KE_PAYLOAD

2014-09-01 Thread Tero Kivinen
Avishek Ganguly writes: I have questions regarding use of NO_PROPOSAL_CHOSEN and INVALID_KE_PAYLOAD in IKE_SA_INIT exchange in RFC 5996 IKEv2. According to Section 3.10.1. Notify Message Types NO_PROPOSAL_CHOSEN 14 None of the proposed crypto suites was

[IPsec] Typos in draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-04

2014-08-29 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: if new version of draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis is issued, then it is also possible fix a typo I've come across. Section 2.8.1, second para: This form of rekeying may temporarily result in multiple similar SAs between the same pairs of nodes. When

Re: [IPsec] Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-06.txt (Signature Authentication in IKEv2) to Proposed Standard

2014-08-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
Johannes Merkle writes: you haven't responded to my objection yet. Please let me know if you think that I am mistaken; otherwise the example should be corrected. I have not have time to come back to this draft yet, I was still supposed to be on vacation for last week and this week, but I had

[IPsec] Rekeying of child sa, Question on TS handling according to RFC 5996

2014-08-21 Thread Tero Kivinen
Pål Dammvik writes: One of the differences between RFC 5996 and 4306 is in the rekeying where it's stated in RFC 5996 section 2.8: Note that, when rekeying, the new Child SA SHOULD NOT have different Traffic Selectors and algorithms than the old one. Additionally in section 1.3.3 (that

Re: [IPsec] IPsec Digest, Vol 123, Issue 21

2014-08-19 Thread Tero Kivinen
Les Leposo writes: have you overlooked the issue of nat mappings? Nope. ipsec nat keepalives are very useful for keeping nat mappings alive, and in a world full of all sorts of nat devices (some behaving reliably and others not), one would have to use low keepalive interval... like 10-60s.

Re: [IPsec] IPsec Digest, Vol 123, Issue 21

2014-08-19 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Tue, 19 Aug 2014, Tero Kivinen wrote: You would need the port number too to support multple clients behind the same NAT router, upon which the attacker can then use multiple ports too. No need for port number. If server is under attack just block / slow down

Re: [IPsec] IPsec Digest, Vol 123, Issue 21

2014-08-18 Thread Tero Kivinen
Les Leposo writes: The iphone (which is only rumored to do IKEv2 with iOS8 likely to be released in September this year) currently has a terrible record of continuously re-establishing connections. Like whenever the screen saver hits it will tear down the tunnel. With an always-on

[IPsec] Garage door - let's pick a different example

2014-07-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: This might sound like a nit, but we have this text in the draft, as a use case for null auth: User wants to get some simple action from the remote device. Consider garage door opener: it must authenticate user to open the door, but it is not necessary for the user to

Re: [IPsec] [ippm] WGLC on draft-ietf-ippm-ipsec-03

2014-07-23 Thread Tero Kivinen
Kostas Pentikousis writes: (adding ipsec folks in CC) I quickly read this document and I think it needs much broaders review from the IPsec people. This document is using internal IKEv2 keying material outside IKEv2 SA context, meaning it can cause problems with the actual security of the IKEv2

Re: [IPsec] Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-06.txt (Signature Authentication in IKEv2) to Proposed Standard

2014-07-20 Thread Tero Kivinen
Johannes Merkle writes: Nice work, the wording is really improved. However, I still have two comments: 1. The wording in A.4 is confusing. With RSASSA-PSS, the algorithm object identifier is always id-RSASSA- PSS, but the hash function is taken from the optional parameters, and

[IPsec] [ipsec] TS Negotiation and Static Route Install

2014-07-10 Thread Tero Kivinen
Steve Baillargeon writes: - in the section 2.9 on Traffic Selector Negotiation, I think it will be good to have a few sentences about the relation (or lack of) between traffic selector and static routing especially when dealing with AH/ESP tunnel mode. As far as I know many implementers will

[IPsec] Minor thinko in IKEv2 rfc5996bis draft (and RFC 5996)

2014-05-19 Thread Tero Kivinen
Black, David writes: In looking for something else, I ran across a minor thinko in the rfc5996bis draft that was inherited from RFC 5996. Section 3.14, Encrypted Payload, 4th paragraph: When an authenticated encryption algorithm is used to protect the IKE SA, the construction of the

Re: [IPsec] Simultaneous Child SA Creation tigger from both the side.

2014-05-06 Thread Tero Kivinen
Praveen Sathyanarayan writes: I agree, it is a corner case. Example, out of 5000 tunnels, may be we will see 10 to 15 tunnels end up in this scenario. So memory/resource is not a concern. There are two cases: Your implementation is very limited, and support very few Child SAs and cannot cope

Re: [IPsec] Regarding IKEv2 REDIRECT problem (reference RFC 5685)

2014-05-06 Thread Tero Kivinen
vijay kn writes: Praveen/Ahmad, Some vendors don’t support Reauth. In this case what to do? There is no specific need for reauth on the protocol level. You create new IKE SA, you create new Child SAs, you delete old IKE SA. Everything is just standard IKEv2 and all implementations support that

Re: [IPsec] Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-02.txt (Internet Key Exchange Protocol Version 2 (IKEv2)) to Internet Standard

2014-04-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: I assume you mean that you don’t sign with public keys. Replacing “sign” with “validate” makes for a strange sentence, because the sentence is about sending (and presumably signing) rather than receiving (and validating). How about: “If multiple certificate are sent, the

[IPsec] RFC5996bis section 3.1 comment

2014-04-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
I am making new version of the rfc5996bis, so going through old emails too... Paul Wouters writes: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013, Tero Kivinen wrote: [forgive me if already reported] Section 3.1 states: o Major Version (4 bits) - Indicates the major version of the IKE protocol

[IPsec] Question on IPSEC Identification Type registry

2014-04-07 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: According to RFC 3554 (SCTP with IPsec): IANA has assigned number 12 for ID_LIST (defined in Section 3) in the IPSEC Identification Type registry which matches: http://www.iana.org/assignments/isakmp-registry/isakmp-registry.xhtml#isakmp-registry-31

Re: [IPsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipsecme-esp-ah-reqts-03.txt

2014-04-04 Thread Tero Kivinen
RJ Atkinson writes: If that's what the WG wants, great. In me reading the list as a document author, I don't see people agreeing with that. If this I-D is NOT addressing all IPsec use cases, then why isn't this I-D titled the IPsec VPN Requirements document ? I think you are wrong there.

[IPsec] ChaCha20 Poly1305, AEAD and other modes

2014-03-10 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: Hi draft-nir-ipsecme-chacha20-poly1305 currently specifies three transforms: 1. chacha20 as a stand-alone cipher 2. Poly1305 as a stand-alone MAC 3. ChaCha20-Poly1305 as an AEAD. Some people in the room said that we should only do the AEAD and skip the stand-alone

Re: [IPsec] Some comments to draft-plmrs-ipsecme-ipsec-ikev2-context-definition-01

2014-03-06 Thread Tero Kivinen
Daniel Palomares writes: So, would you think it is a good idea to add this information to the draft (I mean the new requirements when IKE_SAs and IPsec_SAs are on separated nodes)? ... Or instead, would you think it would be good to ignore how applications are managing their IPsec_SAs and

[IPsec] Comments to draft-mglt-ipsecme-clone-ike-sa-00.txt

2014-03-05 Thread Tero Kivinen
In the section 4. Protocol Overview, the draft says: The current IKE_SA becomes the old IKE_SA and the newly negotiated IKE_SA becomes the new IKE_SA. What the draft does not specify what happens to the Child SAs present on the old IKE SA. Are they moved to the new IKE SA or are they

[IPsec] Some comments to draft-plmrs-ipsecme-ipsec-ikev2-context-definition-01

2014-03-05 Thread Tero Kivinen
In section 2 it says: Note that IKEv2 and IPsec session do not need to be on the same node as IKEv2 and IPsec context are different. This is not so easy. The RFC5996 says: -- 2.4. State Synchronization and Connection

Re: [IPsec] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth-01.txt

2014-03-04 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: Actually I now noticed you changed the SHOULD be ignored to MUST be ignored, and I think that is again bad idea. I think logging and auditing the ID for problem solving purposes is good idea even if it does not have any meaning for the authentication. I.e. at least

Re: [IPsec] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth-01.txt

2014-03-04 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Tue, 4 Mar 2014, Valery Smyslov wrote: I agree this may chocke some implementations. The idea was that if implementation notice that Auth Method is NULL, it must not parse ID Payload at all. But I understand that depending on the order in which payloads are

Re: [IPsec] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth-01.txt

2014-03-04 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Tue, 4 Mar 2014, Tero Kivinen wrote: I have actually thought about a mode where we scramble the order or payloads just to see which implementations would die :P That only works for RFC5996 version, RFC4306 version are allowed to reject packets which have

[IPsec] Fw: New Version Notification for draft-smyslov-ipsecme-ikev2-null-auth-01.txt

2014-03-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: I've posted new version of the NULL Auth Method draft. It addresses comments received from Yaron Sheffer and Paul Wouters. Ah, I just managed to read the -00 version... Oh well, reading diffs next... Anyways I think the document is in quite good shape, I think the

Re: [IPsec] Working Group Last Call: draft-ietf-ipsecme-esp-ah-reqts

2014-03-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: The draft lists the following trasforms based on AES cipher: AES-GCM AES-CCM AES-CTR AES-128-CBC AES-GMAC AES-XCBC-MAC-96 All these transforms, except for AES-XCBC-MAC-96, allows to be used with different key lengths - 128, 192 and 256 bits. It looks strange to

[IPsec] Comments to draft-amjads-ipsecme-ikev2-data-channel-00

2014-03-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
First of all, I am really dubious whether this is needed. When I started reading this, I first assumed, ok, it is used to transfer some data between two nodes from userland to userland without any need for kernel IPsec stack, or some configuration / policy data that is needed before the ESP SA can

[IPsec] Comments to the draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-05

2014-03-03 Thread Tero Kivinen
I have read this document, and I think it is getting ready. I have some nits for it, but they are just typos and similar. Nits: -- In appendix A: The attacker could infrequently emit forged but looking valid fragments

Re: [IPsec] Working Group Last Call: draft-ietf-ipsecme-esp-ah-reqts

2014-02-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: +1 on making single-DES CBC a MUST NOT. Agree on that. (And I still need to read the whole document, I am way too much behind with my IPsecME WG draft reading). -- kivi...@iki.fi ___ IPsec mailing list IPsec@ietf.org

Re: [IPsec] New drafts

2013-12-09 Thread Tero Kivinen
Johannes Merkle writes: Tero Kivinen schrieb am 14.11.2013 01:25: I also updated the signature authentication draft by adding the section about the public key selection methods, and I also added the binary objects for the commonly used signature ASN.1 objects. If someone has any way

Re: [IPsec] NAT-T and IPv6

2013-11-26 Thread Tero Kivinen
Gandhar Gokhale writes: Thank you Tero. It clarifies my doubt. However, with a SHOULD clause it's not quite apparent in the RFC that this is just an 'optimization' for IPv4. And since the RFC claims that there is no technical reason for this not to work with IPv6 it becomes incompatible set

[IPsec] NAT-T and IPv6

2013-11-25 Thread Tero Kivinen
Gandhar Gokhale writes: As defined in this document, UDP encapsulation of ESP packets is  written in terms of IPv4 headers.  There is no technical reason why an IPv6 header could not be used as the outer header and/or as the inner header. Of course we hope nobody every makes NATs for IPv6,

[IPsec] New drafts

2013-11-13 Thread Tero Kivinen
I updated the RFC5996bis draft to include the editorial changes sent to the list (all changes sent up To tuesday). I also updated the signature authentication draft by adding the section about the public key selection methods, and I also added the binary objects for the commonly used signature

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 1. Introduction (Was Re: Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
[I am now doing these editorial changes, and I will be sending separate emails for each of them, just so I can keep track of what is changed and where, and you can complain if I miss or misinterpret something (but do not complain about missing changes before I send email that I have processed all

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 1.6 Requirements Terminology (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 1. Section 1.6 Requirements Terminology is placed far from the begining of the document and all the requirements words, along with terms from RFC4301 etc. are used before they are formally introduced. I don't think it is appropriate for standards track

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 1.2. The Initial Exchanges (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 4. Page 11. At this point in the negotiation, each party can generate SKEYSEED, from which all keys are derived for that IKE SA. Term SKEYSEED pops up from nowhere. No reference is gived and even no word is explained what is it all about. First-time readers will

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 1.2. The Initial Exchanges (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 5. Page 14, 15 and 16 The responder replies (using the same Message ID to respond) with the accepted offer in an SA payload, and a Diffie-Hellman value in the KEr payload if KEi was included in the request and the selected cryptographic suite includes that

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 2.6 IKE SA SPIs and Cookies (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 7. Page 31. Phrase (see Section 2.6) actually references the same section. It should either be removed or corrected. Changed: tIn the first message of an initial IKE exchange, the initiator will not know the responder's SPI value and will

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 2.15 Authentication of the IKE SA (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 9. Page 49. There are two types of EAP authentication (described in Section 2.16), and each type uses different values in the AUTH computations shown above. If the EAP method is key-generating, substitute master session key (MSK) for the shared secret in

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 2.16 Extensible Authentication Protocol Methods (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 10. Page 51. As described in Section 2.2, when EAP is used, each pair of IKE SA initial setup messages will have their message numbers incremented; the first pair of AUTH messages will have an ID of 1, the second will be 2, and so on. Should be:

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 2.17 Generating Keying Material for Child SAs (Was Editorial changes to RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: 11. Page 52: A single CHILD_SA negotiation may result in multiple Security Associations. Should be: A single CREATE_CHILD_SA negotiation may result in multiple Security Associations. Changed: tA single CHILD_SA negotiation may result in

[IPsec] RFC5996bis editorial change in section 3.2 Generic Payload Header (Was One more editorial issue in RFC5996)

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Just came across one more small editorial issue in RFC5996. Page 73, description of Next Payload field, sentence In the header of an Encrypted payload, the Next Payload field is set to the payload type of the first contained payload (instead of 0);

Re: [IPsec] 5996bis 3.3.1 proposal structure

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: Implementors still need to name that struct. Instead of everyone coming up with their own name it would be good to have a standard name for it. I do not think it is that important to have names, I am good at inventing better names than what they use in standards :-) So

Re: [IPsec] Working Group Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-ikev2-rfc5996bis-01

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: I think RFC 6989 (additional tests when reusing DH values) should be a normative reference, There is not a single group defined, or even mentioned in the RFC5996bis that requires those checks, so I think it can be informational. For documents specifying groups that

Re: [IPsec] 5996bis 3.3.1 proposal structure

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Hoffman writes: Slight editorial clean-up on the new wording: o Last Substruc (1 octet) - Specifies whether or not this is the last Proposal Substructure in the SA. This field has a value of 0 if this was last Proposal Substructure, and a value of 2 if there are more

[IPsec] RFC5996bis

2013-11-12 Thread Tero Kivinen
I am now done through my queue of RFC5996bis changes. If someone has still something, that wants to argue about those I didn't include, do it now. I will be submitting new draft version soon (tomorrow). -- kivi...@iki.fi ___ IPsec mailing list

Re: [IPsec] Other documents to upgrade to internet standard

2013-11-07 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: IIRC we published RFC 5903 using the old code points because there was no objection, i.e. no indication that people had deployed pre-errata 4753. Whether this was the right thing to do or not is not very interesting now. There was very strong objection, at least from

Re: [IPsec] Other documents to upgrade to internet standard

2013-11-07 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: The VPN products from Cisco, Juniper and Check Point support them, as well as both StrongSwan and OpenSwan. I'm sure there are others as well. But which version of their products support which version of the ECC groups? For example I have no idea which version our toolkit,

Re: [IPsec] Other documents to upgrade to internet standard

2013-11-06 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yaron Sheffer writes: - RFC2451 The ESP CBC-Mode Cipher Algorithms This is nominally a generic document, but it's really about a list of specific algorithms, none of which is in wide use today (we are trying to phase out 3DES and in general 64-bit block algorithms). This document is not

Re: [IPsec] Query regarding Qos with IKE

2013-11-05 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: For a given IPsec SA, they want to overwrite/force/set the DSCP to a particular value. It will not depend upon the traffic goes into it (but, the SPD selectors may quite specificly pick the traffic). If I think RFC4301 already requires that. I.e. it requires

[IPsec] Other documents to upgrade to internet standard

2013-11-05 Thread Tero Kivinen
While we are working on the ESP, AH, IKEv2, and Architecture documents, I think we should do also the easy ones: - RFC2451 The ESP CBC-Mode Cipher Algorithms - RFC3526 More Modular Exponential (MODP) Diffie-Hellman groups for Internet Key Exchange - RFC3948 UDP Encapsulation of IPsec ESP

Re: [IPsec] Update to RFC4307 too?

2013-11-04 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: Yoav Nir y...@checkpoint.com wrote: Fix PRF_AES128_CBC to PRF_AES128_XCBC and downgrade it from SHOULD+ to SHOULD. this is the only one which I didn't understand. Which one? There's two parts there. True. So, the _CBC to _XCBC is either a typo

Re: [IPsec] Working GroupLastCall:draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-02

2013-10-31 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Yes, it only works if the initiator picked wrong key. On the other hand as I pointed out there are already 3 ways for the responder to pick right key (optional IDr in initiators IKE_AUTH request, CERTREQ, and AUTH payload sent by the initiator). And none of them

Re: [IPsec] [tsvwg] TSVDIR-ish reviewofdraft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-04

2013-10-29 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: Draft introduces IKE-level fragmentation to avoid IP fragmentation whenever possible and to only let it be if it is impossible. Actually the first preference is to use IP fragmentation, and if that works, it is what we use, and we do not try IKE fragmentation at all. Only

Re: [IPsec] Working GroupLastCall:draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-02

2013-10-29 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: And you can always retry when you notice that you get authentication error after using private key, provided you have multiple types of keys. In general you can't if it is responder who selected wrong key. That is something I realized on our way home, but

[IPsec] 5996bis 3.3.1 proposal structure

2013-10-29 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: 3.3.1. Proposal Substructure 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 0 (last) or 2 | RESERVED

Re: [IPsec] Working Group LastCall:draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-02

2013-10-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: And you can always retry when you notice that you get authentication error after using private key, provided you have multiple types of keys. In general you can't if it is responder who selected wrong key. That is something I realized on our way home, but it is

Re: [IPsec] Working Group Last Call: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-02

2013-10-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Pekka Riikonen writes: The ASN.1 used here are the same ASN.1 which is used in the AlgorithmIdentifier of the PKIX (Section 4.1.1.2 of [RFC5280]). The It should specify encoding rules, even though it references RFC5280. So this could say something like: The ASN.1 used

[IPsec] draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-04

2013-10-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
I have reviewed this draft again. I tihnk we should add bit more in to the introduction. I.e explain the common case for this protocol is to fragment exactly ONE message pair (IKE_AUTH), and those messages are most commonly around 500-3000 bytes long. For example to do proper PMTU for sending

Re: [IPsec] [tsvwg] TSVDIR-ish reviewofdraft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-04

2013-10-28 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: 3. While the TCP stack has access to these ICMP packets and the PMTU that they convey, a userspace IKE daemon usually doesn't. See [1] for how people suggest doing it in C#. Actually for example our code tries to get ICMP messages for IKE packets, mostly so that we can make

Re: [IPsec] WG Last Call on draft-ietf-ipsecme-oob-pubkey

2013-10-18 Thread Tero Kivinen
Michael Richardson writes: I followed the reference to draft-ietf-tls-oob-pubkey-07, which I read. I would like to suggest that section 3 more quickly refers to the tls-oob-pubkey Appendix A, and that it say something like: In order to provide a simple and standard way to indicate the key

Re: [IPsec] Updated version of RFC5996bis

2013-10-18 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013, Tero Kivinen wrote: I made new version of the RFC5996bis (yes, I am more than month too late from my original time-estimate). This version removes the Raw RSA public keys Is that the old version that would be obsoleted by draft-kivinen

[IPsec] Moving forward with draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth

2013-10-18 Thread Tero Kivinen
Johannes Merkle writes: draft-kivinen-ipsecme-signature-auth-01 is about to expire. Given the current discussions on potential backdoors in NIST curves (don't want to participate in these conspiracy theories though), signature algorithm flexibility may be even more desirable. As it expired

[IPsec] FWD from Cao Zhen \(CZ\): [Lwip] WGLC for I-D draft-ietf-lwig-ikev2-minimal-01.txt

2013-10-18 Thread Tero Kivinen
-lwig-ikev2-minimal-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Light-Weight Implementation Guidance Working Group of the IETF. Title : Minimal IKEv2 Author(s) : Tero Kivinen

[IPsec] Updated version of RFC5996bis

2013-10-17 Thread Tero Kivinen
I made new version of the RFC5996bis (yes, I am more than month too late from my original time-estimate). This version removes the Raw RSA public keys, adds reference to the 5996, 6989 and 4945. Cleans up IANA Considerations section, and adds note to both to the abstract and Introduction that

Re: [IPsec] Update to RFC4307 too?

2013-10-14 Thread Tero Kivinen
Paul Wouters writes: which seems to imply 768 MODP group is MAY. Which is confirmed in RFC 4109. So I think we should also update 768 MODP group to MUST NOT. I agree on that. I thought we deprecated that already in the RFC4306 by saying:

Re: [IPsec] Comments to draft-nir-ipsecme-cafr-02

2013-10-14 Thread Tero Kivinen
Yoav Nir writes: I.e. the INVALID_SYNTAX notification is considered fatal in both peers, meaning that IKE SA is deleted. In this case this will cause the OLD IKE SA to be deleted. I do not think we want to be that to happen. Perhaps something less fatal error message would be better as

[IPsec] Comments to draft-nir-ipsecme-cafr-02

2013-10-09 Thread Tero Kivinen
In section 2.2. Verifying the HAND_OVER_CHILD_SAS Notification the document lists operations which needs to be done when handling the notification. The process seems otherwise quite good, expect the error handling seems to be bit drastic. It currently says that if the authenticated identites are

Re: [IPsec] I-D Action: draft-ietf-ipsecme-ikev2-fragmentation-03.txt

2013-10-09 Thread Tero Kivinen
Valery Smyslov writes: There is no field id in IKEv2 Fragmentation Payload - just Fragment Number and Total Fragments. But Total Fragments field plays a dual role if peer uses PMTU discovery - i.e. tries several fragment sizes. In this case Total Fragments allows to distinguish between

[IPsec] Comments to draft-song-ipsecme-seq-icv-01

2013-10-09 Thread Tero Kivinen
# Copyright (c) 2013 Tero Kivinen # All Rights Reserved. ## # Program: song-crack.pl # $Source: $ # Author : $Author: kivinen $ # # (C) Tero Kivinen 2013 kivi...@iki.fi # # Creation : 16

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