Re: Funding opportunity for your projects

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Scarlett,

On vrijdag 28 oktober 2022 14:22:06 CET Scarlett Moore wrote:
> Would packaging all the apps in the different formats ( snap, appimage,
> flatpak ) be considered a project?

You can find more information about the funding areas on NLNet's website:

https://nlnet.nl/themes/ (more info on surrounding pages).

Cheers,

-- sebas


> Scarlett
> 
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 5:03 PM Nate Graham  wrote:
> > Hello KDE community members and developers!
> > 
> > I'm writing to everyone about something very exciting: the NLnet
> > Foundation (https://nlnet.nl) has made us aware that they have
> > substantial quantities of funds available for FOSS projects that KDE is
> > eligible for: up to 5€ per project. If you have an idea for a big
> > project or feature you've always wanted to do but lacked the funding
> > for, here's your chance!
> > 
> > If you're worried that your idea doesn't meet the criteria, don't be;
> > practically everything KDE does is eligible for funds in the Open Call
> > (https://nlnet.nl/news/2022/20221001-call.html) which ends on December
> > 1st, so there's still plenty of time for you to apply to get your
> > project funded. Click that link for details.
> > 
> > Remember: what KDE does is good for the digital world. So if it's good
> > for KDE and you can articulate its benefits, it's a worthy project!
> > 
> > If the process seems intimidating, you'd like someone to review your
> > grant proposal, or you need guidance or assistance for any other reason,
> > the KDE e.V. stands ready to help your grant proposal succeed. Email
> > kde-ev-bo...@kde.org and we can help!
> > 
> > 
> > Nate
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > P.S. This information can also be found on
> > https://community.kde.org/Make_A_Living


-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org

Re: Qt, Open Source and corona

[Sebastian Kügler]

On donderdag 9 april 2020 15:29:22 CEST Noah Davis wrote:
> I've seen a lot of people on Reddit and various chat rooms who are a
> fan of Kt as a name.

I'd advise against this discussion at this point, it doesn't belong here, it's 
a topic that can quickly explode, lead to bike-shedding and distracts from the 
very serious topic of "what is a good strategy to move forward in this 
situation?".

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I certainly didn't want to start such a discussion, just answer a question 
that tries to draw a line between "what is the part of Qt that can be taken 
into a fork, and what is not?", the trademark (just like infrastructure and 
quite a few other things) are owned by Qt, not freely licensed and thus 
outside of the scope of a fork (so would require investing resources to 
replace).
-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org

Re: Qt, Open Source and corona

[Sebastian Kügler]

On donderdag 9 april 2020 14:12:36 CEST Clemens Toennies wrote:
> On Apr 9, 2020 11:34, "Jens"  wrote:
> > > Hosting of the website also wouldn't be an issue (and if it ends up
> > > being high traffic, as long as the content is cacheable we can rely on
> > > Cloudflare). People would need to step up to write the content and
> > > produce any necessary graphics though :)
[...]
> > "I will happily make graphics"
> 
> Regarding website/domain/url/graphics:
> What potential names would be allowed?
> Is anything with "Qt" in it legal or would everything need to be renamed?

https://www.qt.io/trademark/

Qt's trademark policy is unsurprisingly strict, and it seems well managed on 
top of that. A fork of Qt has to be make a clear distinction in its name, and 
"anything with Qt in it" will be as misleading as marketing your os as "The 
Windows Alternative".

A fork of Qt would need a new name and its own branding.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Neon Pinebook Remix as part of KDE

[Sebastian Kügler]

On woensdag 18 april 2018 08:54:53 CEST Volker Krause wrote:
> On Wednesday, 11 April 2018 15:18:05 CEST Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> 
> > How do we feel about shipping installable images with non-free
> > supporting software?  The alternative is to drop and not ship any more
> > images for Plasma Active or Mobile etc.
> 
> Knowing the joys of binary-only graphic drivers first hand I assume there is
> no viable alternative at this point. In that case I think this is indeed
> the most pragmatic way forward, neither we nor our users would gain
> anything by rejecting this IMHO.

Right. We have even seen some positive signs from the pinebook people and were 
able to create a better understanding for the need for open drivers, so a few 
steps on our end also create the desire on the hardware manufacturers' end(s) 
to move closer to a workable and open solution.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: KDE stand at FOSS-North

[Sebastian Kügler]

On zaterdag 10 maart 2018 18:55:04 CET Adriaan de Groot wrote:
> I have submitted two talks to FOSS-North, a one (or two) day event in
> Gothenburg [1]. I would like to run a KDE stand there, with KDE demos and
> possibly ome merchandise. I brought this up earlier on this list.
> 
> The event is april 22-23, that is a sunday and monday. Not ideal, I know ..
> but who in the neighbourhood would be willing to help out at a stand? Surely
> there must be one or two KDE peeps in Sweden, still.

Jens lives in Gothenburg, did you reach out to him?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: do you need www.kde.org write access?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thu, 08 Mar 2018 08:42:47 +0100
Boudewijn Rempt <b...@valdyas.org> wrote:

> On Thursday, 8 March 2018 07:58:46 CET Ben Cooksley wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 1:31 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek <stan...@kde.org>
> > wrote:  
> > > On 7 March 2018 at 12:42, Boudewijn Rempt <b...@valdyas.org>
> > > wrote:  
> > >> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 12:31:21 CET Sebastian Kügler wrote:  
> > >> > Hi all,
> > >> > 
> > >> > We have been working on a modernized website and backend for
> > >> > www.kde.org.
> > >> > The new site will do away with the old PHP custom CMS and will
> > >> > run wordpress instead.  
> > >> 
> > >> Does that mean we'll lose our history, just like koffice.org
> > >> history from the
> > >> php times is only in subversion anymore and the
> > >> wordpress (or whatever it was)
> > >> content is completely gone?  
> > > 
> > > But kde.org goes for
> > > wordpress , right?
> > > Sebastian, calligra.org uses wordpress so it stays unaffected,
> > > right?  
> > 
> > The only website affected by this is www.kde.org.
> > 
> > No other site is impacted by this (and calligra.org is already on
> > Wordpress anyway)  
> 
> Yes -- I was refering to what has happened in the past to
> koffice.org. I'm trying to write a history of Krita right now, and I
> wanted to link to the release announcements. Linking to a php source
> file in subversion isn't a very good solution for that, and, of
> course, everything that was in koffice.org's cms was deleted and is
> gone for good. Fortunately, I could find dot.kde.org stories about
> most old releases, but the actual release history of koffice has gone.

That's part of what we need to review: is the new site missing relevant
things which need to be migrated? It's something we can surely fix.
-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org   ⦿http://www.kde.org

Re: do you need www.kde.org write access?

[Sebastian Kügler]

[This discussion should go to the kde-www list, so please let's hold it just 
there as all www topics would easily overpower the kde-community list, I just 
CC:'ed kde-community as we're changing access rights and we need to make sure 
that no critical processes are being hindered.]

On woensdag 7 maart 2018 15:31:50 CET Nick Boyce wrote:
> On 7 March 2018 at 11:31, Sebastian Kügler <se...@kde.org> wrote:
> > We have been working on a modernized website and backend for www.kde.org.
> > The new site will do away with the old PHP custom CMS and will run
> > wordpress instead.
> 
> Sorry to be late to this party  I'm just following along at home
> here, but as a sysadmin with a reasonable level of interest in
> defending systems against breakin I choke on my breakfast as I read
> this statement.
> 
> To avoid my wasting everyone's time by repeating debates I'm sure must
> already have occurred in depth regarding this decision, can anyone
> please point me to any publicly accessible archive there may be of
> such debate ?

There have been two threads discussing this in the past months:

* "Capacity / Wordpress Integration Theme" in August 2017
* "Wordpress Changeover" in December 2017

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: do you need www.kde.org write access?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On woensdag 7 maart 2018 13:31:27 CET Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> On 7 March 2018 at 12:42, Boudewijn Rempt <b...@valdyas.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 12:31:21 CET Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > We have been working on a modernized website and backend for www.kde.org.
> > The new site will do away with the old PHP custom CMS and will run
> > wordpress instead.
> 
> Does that mean we'll lose our history, just like koffice.org history from
> the php times is only in subversion anymore and the ​​wordpress (or
> whatever it was) content is completely gone?
> 
> But ​kde.org goes for ​wordpress , right?​
> Sebastian, calligra.org uses wordpress so it stays unaffected, right?

AFAIK, the plan is to only move www.kde.org for now. Please ask on the kde-www 
list, though, I'm just a messenger. :)
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: do you need www.kde.org write access?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On woensdag 7 maart 2018 12:42:23 CET Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 12:31:21 CET Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > We have been working on a modernized website and backend for www.kde.org.
> > The new site will do away with the old PHP custom CMS and will run
> > wordpress instead.
> 
> Does that mean we'll lose our history, just like koffice.org history from
> the php times is only in subversion anymore and the wordpress (or whatever
> it was) content is completely gone?

I don't know how the site data is stored, but probably you should ask this on 
the kde-www list. (This list was only in CC: for coverage reasons, you may 
have missed that.)

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Input on privacy goal

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, January 22, 2018 7:14:27 PM CET Volker Krause wrote:
> Sure, I have specific plans too, I just wanted something to evaluate them
> against first 
[...]

That's awesome. Thanks Volker!
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Input on privacy goal

[Sebastian Kügler]

On vrijdag 19 januari 2018 15:30:25 CET Volker Krause wrote:
> On Friday, 19 January 2018 14:49:58 CET Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > I'd like to collect some more input from the wider KDE community about our
> > privacy goal for the next years. If you're unsure what I'm talking about,
> > please have a look at https://vizzzion.org/blog/2017/11/kdes-goal-privacy/
> 
> Here are some thoughts on threat models for this, as a possible way to
> better capture what we want to achieve.
[...]

excellent! I've added these threat models to the phabricator task at https://
phabricator.kde.org/T7050

> What else? Which of those do we want to address? Do you think that's a
> useful approach to guide/validate our work?

This is something I want to direct at the community. We really need to get out 
of the mindset of sitting on our hands and waiting for others to start moving. 
This goal is not something that can be driven by just a few people, it needs a 
coherent movement by many of us. In that sense, there must be more input from 
people especially regarding specific plans, and if there isn't, we're 
collecting a whole lot of useful academic and probably technically sound 
opinions and ideas which end up bearing little practical impact.

So, can more people please share their plans, even if small, that impact 
privacy in KDE software?

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Input on privacy goal

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi all,

I'd like to collect some more input from the wider KDE community about our 
privacy goal for the next years. If you're unsure what I'm talking about, 
please have a look at https://vizzzion.org/blog/2017/11/kdes-goal-privacy/

Specifically, I'm collecting input on the following questions / topics:

* What are your plans, plans within your subproject regarding privacy?
* What are, in your opinions the greatest challenges for KDE, within your 
  subproject or in general?
* How do you think we can get closer to our goal?
* Where do you think we stand currently?
* Anything else?

I know, I'm vague and this is a rather open question. I'm after a bigger 
picture and overview of what's going on in the community, knowing what's going 
on and what should be, and more buy-in from community members towards specific 
actions.

Thanks for your input already!
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Telemetry Policy - Remaining Questions

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 10:39:38 AM CET Volker Krause wrote:
> On Monday, 30 October 2017 21:24:59 CET Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> > El dilluns, 30 d’octubre de 2017, a les 9:56:52 CET, Volker Krause
> > va
> > > Let's try to finally get this finished 
> > > 
> > > The only remaining blocker is the unique identification used by
> > > Kexi. There
> > > was some discussion about this around QtWS, and it seemed like
> > > there was consensus on having a strong policy on this topic would
> > > be a good thing for
> > > KDE, as opposed to e.g. turning this into just recommendations, or
> > > opening
> > > it up to unique identification. The suggested solution for Kexi
> > > was to add
> > > a special exception for it to the "These rules apply to all
> > > products released by KDE." statement of the policy.
> 
> > I'm confused, is that a workaround so that it doesn't apply to Kexi
> > by implying Kexi isn't released by KDE?
> 
> That sounds a bit convoluted to me, I was more thinking about making
> it a direct exception to the policy, e.g. like this:
> 
> "These rules apply to all products released by KDE (with the
> exception of Kexi, which uses a telemetry system predating this
> policy)."

This will make the communication downright awful, as people will
concentrate on the exception, not the rule.

I'm thinking along the lines of require code released by KDE to adopt
the policy and even add it to the manifesto as requirement to make it
easier to enforce. Kexi can always make it opt-in, and could be given
some time to do so before we officially adopt and require this
telemetry policy.

Jaroslaw, would that work for you?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Goal: Improve Plasma Mobile platform for end-user needs

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 10:38:14 +0200
Dominik Haumann <dhaum...@kde.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 5, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Sebastian Kügler <se...@kde.org>
> wrote:
> > On maandag 4 september 2017 23:10:34 CEST Dominik Haumann wrote:
> > [...]  
> >> What I would propose to give this a big push is this ambitious
> >> goal: At the next Akademy, give every KDE contributor some handy
> >> device, and make a workshop day where essentially everyone will
> >> install plasma mobile on this.
> >> [...]
> >> Worth to investigate?  
> >
> > Yes, I think so.
> > [...]
> > Also, my impression has been that giving people devices for free
> > more often than not doesn't result in anything. Some will just use
> > them as their phone, keeping android on it, for example, others put
> > them on the stack of hardware they may try some time, but never end
> > up doing anything.
> > [...]  
> 
> Certainly very true.
> 
> To counter this, we could combine this with a certain co-payment:
> Say 100€ or so. I for one would happily pay this to try things out.
> (And the hardware does have its costs after all)

I wonder if this is something we should invest KDE funds into.
Do you see any other way to finance the gap between these 100€ and the
actual retail price?

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Added a resources page on community.ko

[Sebastian Kügler]

On zondag 8 oktober 2017 21:29:08 CEST Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> On Sunday, 8 October 2017, Olivier Churlaud  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I wanted to share with you that I added a page for KDE talks and resources
> > on https://community.kde.org/Resources
> 
> Thanks, to improve navigation how about Talks/Resources?

Seconded, when I read Resources, I have no idea what it's about, Resources is 
way too generic.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
-- 
http://vizZzion.org

Re: [Update] Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

> Am 2017-09-22 14:48, schrieb Sebastian Kügler:
> > What I need now:
> > 
> > * Review: Please look over the proposal, make trivial fixes right
> > there, propose more comprehensible or possibly goal-altering changes
> > in the comments of that page or in this email thread
> > * If you believe this goal is worthwhile for KDE and you support it,
> > please add your name under it
> > * If you intend to actively support this goal in whatever way,
> > please also indicate this on the phab page

On zaterdag 23 september 2017 15:55:05 CEST Martin Flöser wrote:
> back in 2013 I wrote two blog posts with thoughts about FLOSS in a
> world after Snowden:
> *
> https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/08/floss-after-prism-privacy-by->
> default/ *
> http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/08/floss-after-prism-anonymity-by
> -default/
> 
> It might have some good points which might align very well with this
> proposal.

It does, I think it mostly aligns. I've taken your 5th freedom and
added it to the description, and also added a note about anonymity for
web services. I *think* the rest of your post is either already
covered, or going into to much detail for the scope of this goal.

Thanks a lot for your input!
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

[Update] Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi all,

~One month ago, I asked for input and inspiration for the KDE Goal
"Privacy Software", see
https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-community/2017q3/003892.html

I've put some more time, brainpower and patience into that, and put
together a fairly comprehensible goal proposal, which can be found here:

https://phabricator.kde.org/T7050

TL;DR:

"In 5 years, KDE software enables and promotes privacy"

I think this is a goal which is engaging, measurable and most
importantly worthwhile.

What I need now:

* Review: Please look over the proposal, make trivial fixes right
  there, propose more comprehensible or possibly goal-altering changes
  in the comments of that page or in this email thread
* If you believe this goal is worthwhile for KDE and you support it,
  please add your name under it
* If you intend to actively support this goal in whatever way, please
  also indicate this on the phab page

Special thanks so far for the help with this go out to: Umberto,
Martin, Volker, Alexander, Agustin, Christoph, Clemens and of course to
Bhushan and Lydia. \o/

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

On vrijdag 22 september 2017 06:36:51 CEST Bhushan Shah wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 06:14:22PM +0200, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> 
> 
> > "In 5 years, KDE software enables and promotes privacy"
> 
> Can you please submit this goal to goal settings phabricator board
> just like other ideas?

Thanks for the reminder, done so. See my latest email to this list. :)
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: new here, and bug question

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Fred,

On woensdag 20 september 2017 16:21:44 CEST fredj...@fredjame.cnc.net
wrote:
> Please pardon the top-posting ... I am including the message to/from
> kde-community below, as background ... please note the link to a bug
> listed on Mageia, as it pretty much clarifies what I am referring to.
> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21624
> I am looking for any advice/guidance to squash this bug, even if it
> is "no longer supported"  ... I don't think something should be
> dropped in a broken state ... to me, it just doesn't speak well for
> the future. Please also forgive the cross posting to a Mageia
> list ... just trying to keep them in the loop, as that list is where
> this quest started.

I'm sorry, KDE can't help you with this:

- As you said, KDM is unsupported and its maintainer isn't active in
  KDE anymore
- The problem you're experiencing isn't even a problem KDE has anything
  to do with, it stems from a change that apparently Mageia developers
  made to the KDM login manager.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Randa Meeting: Notes on Voice Control in KDE

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hey!

Interesting discussion. Did you guys factor in the work done by Mycroft
on that front? I think there's a great deal of overlap, and already
some really interesting results shown for example in the Mycroft
Plasmoid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUhvKTq6c40 (somewhat dated, but gives
a decent impression)

Cheers,
-- sebas

On Friday, September 15, 2017 9:39:13 AM CEST Frederik Gladhorn wrote:
> We here at Randa had a little session about voice recognition and
> control of applications.
> We tried to roughly define what we mean by that - a way of talking to
> the computer as Siri/Cortana/Alexa/Google Now and other projects
> demonstrate, conversational interfaces. We agreed that want this and
> people expect it more and more.
> Striking a balance between privacy and getting some data to enable
> this is a big concern, see later.
> While there is general interest (almost everyone here went out of
> their way to join the disussion), it didn't seem like anyone here at
> the moment wanted to drive this forward themselves, so it may just
> not go anywhere due to lack of people willing to put in time.
> Otherwise it may be something worth considering as a community goal.
> 
> 
> The term "intent" seems to be OK for the event that arrives at the
> application. More on that later.
> 
> We tried to break down the problem and arrived at two possible
> scenarios: 1) voice recognition -> string representation in user's
> language 1.1) translation to English -> string representation in
> English 2) English sentence -> English string to intent
> 
> or alternatively:
> 1) voice recognition -> string representation in user's language
> 2) user language sentence -> user language string to intent
> 
> 3) appliations get "intents" and react to them.
> 
> So basically one open question is if we need a translation step or if
> we can directly translate from a string in any language to an intent.
> 
> We do not think it feasible nor desirable to let every app do its own
> magic. Thus a central "daemon" processes does step 1, listenting to
> audio and translating to a string representation.
> Then, assuming we want to do a translation step 1.1 we need to find a
> way to do the translation.
> 
> For step 1 mozilla deep voice seems like a candidate, it seems to be
> quickly progressing.
> 
> We assume that mid-term we need machine learning for step 2 - gather
> sample sentences (somewhere between thousands and millions) to enable
> the step of going from sentence to intent.
> We might get away with a set of simple heuristics to get this
> kick-started, but over time we would want to use machine learning to
> do this step. Here it's important to gather enough sample sentences
> to be able to train a model. We basically assume we need to encourage
> people to participate and send us the recognized sentences to get
> enough raw material to work with.
> 
> On interesting point is that ideally we can keep context, so that the
> users can do follow up queries/commands.
> Some of the context may be expressed with state machines (talk to
> Emanuelle about that).
> Clearly the whole topic needs research, we want to build on other
> people's stuff and cooperate as much as possible.
> 
> Hopefully we can find some centralized daemon thing to run on Linux
> and do a lot of the work in step 1 and 2 for us.
> Step 3 requires work on our side (in Qt?) for sure.
> What should intents look like? lists of property bags?
> Should apps have a way of saying which intents they support?
> 
> A starting point could be to use the common media player interface to
> control the media player using voice.
> Should exposing intents be a dbus thing to start with?
> 
> For querying data, we may want to interface with wikipedia, music
> brainz, etc, but is that more part of the central daemon or should
> there be an app?
> 
> We probably want to be able to start applications when the appropriate
> command arrives "write a new email to Volker" launches Kube with the
> composer open and ideally the receiver filled out, or it may ask the
> user "I don't know who that is, please help me...".
> So how do applications define what intents they process?
> How can applications ask for details? after receiving an intent they
> may need to ask for more data.
> 
> There is also the kpurpose framework, I have no idea what it does,
> should read up on it.
> 
> This is likely to be completely new input, while app is in some
> state, may have an open modal dialog, new crashes because we're not
> prepared? Are there patterns/building blocks to make it easier when
> an app is in a certain state?
> Maybe we should look at transactional computing and finite state
> machines? We could look at network protocols as example, they have
> error recovery etc.
> 
> How would integration for online services look like? A lot of this is
> about querying information.
> Should it be by default offline, delegate stuff to online when the
> user asks for it?
> 
> We need to build for 

Plasma Mobile - Purism meeting notes

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi,

Some people involved in Plasma Mobile and KDE's promo efforts had a
meeting with Purism, a company who is running a crowdfunding campaign
to create a privacy-focused "free software" phone yesterday.

I've taken some notes as to keep the community in the loop. These notes
may not be complete, but they give a decent picture of what was talked
about during the meeting. Here goes:

Meeting Purism & KDE

Thursday, 7 September 2017, via Jitsi video conferencing

Present:
Zlatan: CTO Purism
Jeff: promotion / communication at purism
Matthias: Purism
Paul: Marketing Coordination
Sebastian: Plasma Mobile coordination / communication
Marco: Plasma Mobile UI maintainer
Aleix: KDE e.V. board, works on Flatpak
Bhushan: Plasma Mobile stack maintainer
Nicole: Purism lead for phone
Todd: CEO Purism


Todd: introducing purism
- builds laptop, goal to reduce screen size to get to the point of
mobile
- be able to deliver on the phone
- believe digital rights is a concern, take FSF policy as base, build
this into the hardware story, create devices users can control
- convenient alternative to android
- evaluating best path forward from the software standpoint, esp
middleware stack
- long term goal: identify pain points for average users to allow wide 
adoption of a pre-installed linux -> build a product line

- KDE wants to make Plasma Mobile readying for end-user needs a goal:
  https:// phabricator.kde.org/T6878
- draft for a communication strategy for a joint campaign with purism
  as base: https://phabricator.kde.org/T6919
- Technology Roadmap for Plasma Mobile:
  https://community.kde.org/Plasma/ Mobile/Roadmap

Results of discussion:
- plan: figure out a way to tap into KDE's promotion engine, and this
reach this audience, drive to consodilate on a given platform
rally the audience behind one platform, rather than different islands
- question for purism: what are we trying to do with the middleware
(KDE Plasma vs. GNOME / GTK)
- unified software stack between laptop and phone formfactors is
desirable
- if the crowdfunding is successful (let's assume yes), deliver the
phone within 12 months
- once we start investing in developers, we need to pick a platform
("pick a horse to bet on")
- next 49 days plus one month, this decision for a platform needs to be
taken
- what hardware are people interested in
- end goal aligns very well: KDE wants a privacy phone, controlled by
the users
- an estimate is needed about text / matrix client
- We need to rally KDE peeps to help developing
- to follow up with email of understanding about possible collaboration



Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Goal: Improve Plasma Mobile platform for end-user needs

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 5 september 2017 01:26:44 CEST Aleix Pol wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Bhushan Shah 
> wrote:
> > For big-hairy-audacious-goal here is my proposal
> > 
> > "Improve Plasma Mobile platform for end-user needs"
> > 
> > I believe that after doing work on Desktop for almost ~21 years, it
> > makes sense to explore the new form factor. While we are offering
> > the privacy and security centric opensource products for the
> > Desktop, we should also attempt our best in providing same products
> > for Mobile as well.
> > 
> > I've written proposal in details at the Phabricator board [1]. Feel
> > free to give feedback or ideas.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > [1] https://phabricator.kde.org/T6878
> 
> I like the idea, especially because it's probably the best moment to
> do it.
> 
> I believe there's a lot we can offer to the mobile community. In the
> end all of us are carrying such a device with us. It's something we
> care about.
> 
> That said, I think it's also worth including here other major mobile
> platforms. I'm convinced that the appeal to make an application mobile
> is magnitudes greater if the application will work on other platforms
> besides our own.

I agree, a KDE app using Kirigami for a convergent user interface, and
being able to easily deploy it to an APK for Android would make a
pretty compelling story to get more KDE developers to make their app
mobile-friendly, and at the same time, make KDE an interesting
community to develop also mobile applications in, with the side-effect
of enrichening the Plasma Mobile app ecosystem.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Goal: Improve Plasma Mobile platform for end-user needs

[Sebastian Kügler]

On maandag 4 september 2017 23:10:34 CEST Dominik Haumann wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Bhushan Shah 
> wrote:

> > For big-hairy-audacious-goal here is my proposal
> > 
> > "Improve Plasma Mobile platform for end-user needs"
> > 
> > I believe that after doing work on Desktop for almost ~21 years, it
> > makes sense to explore the new form factor. While we are offering
> > the privacy and security centric opensource products for the
> > Desktop, we should also attempt our best in providing same products
> > for Mobile as well.
> > 
> > I've written proposal in details at the Phabricator board [1]. Feel
> > free to give feedback or ideas.
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > [1] https://phabricator.kde.org/T6878
> 
> In general, I like the idea very much. A lot of work was put into
> Plasma mobile, and recent activities and events (e.g. postmarketOS)
> indiacate there is still interest also outside of the KDE community.
> 
> What I would propose to give this a big push is this ambitious goal:
> At the next Akademy, give every KDE contributor some handy device, and
> make a workshop day where essentially everyone will install plasma
> mobile on this. This would result in everyone having to go through the
> bootstrapping and maybe some initial development. This would lower the
> burden of getting into Plasma mobile development and maybe the entire
> software stack significantly. At the same time we would push a strong
> message to the outside world: Namely that our software makes a
> difference and is alive and kicking.
> 
> Of course this is a lot of work. In particular, we would need to find
> a way to get ca. 100 devices that will run Plasma mobile. But I think
> it can be done, maybe in collaboration with postmarketOS developers.
> Even if we don't reach the end users here, getting more technically
> versed closer to KDE and this project would possibly be a side-effect.
> 
> Worth to investigate?

Yes, I think so.

There's a big "but", however. PostmarketOS is more or less a
one-man-show with a great idea, I doubt this guy has the resources to
sponsor a significant amount of devices. 

Also, my impression has been that giving people devices for free more
often than not doesn't result in anything. Some will just use them as
their phone, keeping android on it, for example, others put them on the
stack of hardware they may try some time, but never end up doing
anything. The ROI of investment of spreading devices among community
members is sadly pretty low.

We are at a very interesting point with Plasma Mobile right now,
however. After last year's shutdown of Firefox OS and Ubuntu's mobile,
Plasma Mobile is the most promising option for those who want to
develop a smartphone outside of the Android (and of course iOS) world.
This brings an opportunity for us to enter the market by combining
forces from the outside. The fragmentation that we see in the desktop
space isn't currently there in the mobile space, and even GNOME clearly
admits that they have neither mobile ambitions nor the technology to
make it happen anytime soon. Plasma is in a position where we have done
the groundwork, and are pretty much the best option if you don't want
to start from scratch. We need to bank on this opportunity, and I think
the goal Bhushan describes could bring that push from inside the KDE
community. It does, however, need commitment from inside our own
community, and let's be honest, so far, that hasn't been great. Most
people applaud the effort, and then keep watching from the sidelines
without actually lending a helping hand, and we end up having to spread
the work across way too little shoulders to make significant progress
without burning out. This needs to change, and more people have to help
us achieving these goals.

Yesterday, the Plasma team had a meeting in which we defined our
further strategy a bit clearer, and the outcome was great. We've
created a roadmap as well as a communication plan (draft at
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/ Mobile/Roadmap if you're looking for
some inspiration, feedback welcome!).

Hopefully, this and the above-described window of opportunity provides
us the momentum necessary to push Plasma Mobile to a success story.
Remember, it's a very ambitious project, but *if* we get this right, we
can create the greatest success story KDE has ever seen.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Splitting Craft, move the recipes to GitHub

[Sebastian Kügler]

On woensdag 23 augustus 2017 15:38:38 CEST Luigi Toscano wrote:
> On Wednesday, 23 August 2017 15:33:09 CEST Hannah von Reth wrote:
> > We have been thinking about splitting the Craft recipes into a separate
> > repository for some time now.
> > To have a Craft core and the recipes separated would enable us to
> > provide more stable user experience. It would allow us to use the latest
> > recipes with the stable core.
> > 
> > At the same time Craft tries to get rid of the image as the KDE Windows
> > build tool.
> > 
> > Craft offers recipes for many libraries and non KDE applications.
> > Additionally Craft offers support for Mac, Linux and FreeBSD.
> > 
> > In order to reach more people we intend to move the recipes to GitHub to
> > enable non KDE contributors to add their recipes.
> > Craft would continue to be a KDE Project on the KDE infrastructure, only
> > the recipes would move.
> 
> Does it mean that people who want to contribute to recipes for applications
> developed by KDE should go to github?
> 
> This is more or less the same as saying "so to get rid the image of kdelibs,
> let's put Frameworks on github only".
> 
> I'm a bit sad.

I agree, these things should really be on KDE infrastructure. I won't repeat 
the long discussion we had about github for KDE or not, but most of the 
arguments also apply here. I think this case is really stretching where what 
we want to achieve with KDE's manifesto, and as a community. Moreover, it 
seems counter-productive to have code and recipes split on two services.

Could you not merge these things from github somehow, so that we can keep the 
canonical copy on KDE's git, or perhaps also pull recipes from github, *in 
addition to* KDE's git?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 21:58:32 +0200
Alexander Neundorf <neund...@kde.org> wrote:

> On 2017 M08 18, Fri 18:14:22 CEST Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > "In 5 years, KDE software enables and promotes privacy"  
> 
>  ... does that kind of imply that we need to offer a range of
> applications which cover the most privacy-sensitive topics, e.g. a
> competetive web browser ?

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, our goal should be realistic,
and I don't think "offering our own competitive web browser" ticks that
box. We've been there, we've done that, we succeeded to some degree in
the most spectacular way (think where KHTML successors are shipped and
what they brought to the eco system) and failed in other dimensions
(think about the state of KHTML and our own web browser offering
nowadays). 

What's probably a lot more realistic and worthwhile is
to we make integration for web browsers that do respect privacy work
really well. Integrating Tor really well would also be a good idea in
that regard.
-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org   ⦿http://www.kde.org

Re: Mission has been accepted

[Sebastian Kügler]

On maandag 21 augustus 2017 10:48:06 CEST Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> On zaterdag 19 augustus 2017 21:58:26 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> 
> 
> > Given that there were no further comments I have now removed the draft
> > tag from the Mission at https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission.
> > Thank you everyone for your comments and the fruitful discussion. I am
> > grateful for your input and help in getting this written down. I hope
> > next to the vision and manifesto it will become an important guiding
> > document for us.
> > 
> > The next step is setting big hairy ass goals as we discussed   I'll
> > send the next steps for that tomorrow.
> 
> What's a bit unclear to me: Is the strategy as we put it into the wiki also
> considered "Accepted"? To me, it is, with a big *but*: While it is too
> vague, we need to figure out how *exactly* we want to fulfill our mission,
> and we're doing so with the goals we started working on.
> 
> So, the whole Wiki page is "accepted", not just the "Mission" bit, right?

Moreover, we should publicize this, who wants to work on this? (I'm thinking 
primarily a Dot story, but also how it should be presented on KDE's web 
presence. Ken, any ideas?)

-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Proposal: Have the Community Set Ambitious Goals for Itself

[Sebastian Kügler]

On maandag 21 augustus 2017 08:42:42 CEST Kevin Ottens wrote:
> On Wednesday, 16 August 2017 12:38:17 CEST Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> 
> 
> > On dinsdag 15 augustus 2017 00:47:15 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> 
> 
> > > If I get at least two people to agree in this thread that they will
> > > submit a goal I commit to making the process work according to the
> > > proposed timeline.
> 
> > I'll do that. We probably should coordinate somehow which goals, so we
> > don't end up with almost duplicates, or leave out sensible options.
> 
> I think that's the whole point of working out the proposals + the discussion
> phase during October. It should help a great deal to make sure duplicates
> are known and merged before the poll starts.

I misunderstood the process a bit. I thought a bunch of people would send in 
proposals and then we'd vote, but I was afraid that that would produce crappy 
input for an important process. (Crappy, measured by my first attempt at 
producing something half-decent.) 

It's crystal clear to me now, and I think that that MO should totally work. :)
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Mission has been accepted

[Sebastian Kügler]

On zaterdag 19 augustus 2017 21:58:26 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> Given that there were no further comments I have now removed the draft
> tag from the Mission at https://community.kde.org/KDE/Mission.
> Thank you everyone for your comments and the fruitful discussion. I am
> grateful for your input and help in getting this written down. I hope
> next to the vision and manifesto it will become an important guiding
> document for us.
> 
> The next step is setting big hairy ass goals as we discussed   I'll
> send the next steps for that tomorrow.

What's a bit unclear to me: Is the strategy as we put it into the wiki also 
considered "Accepted"? To me, it is, with a big *but*: While it is too vague, 
we need to figure out how *exactly* we want to fulfill our mission, and we're 
doing so with the goals we started working on.

So, the whole Wiki page is "accepted", not just the "Mission" bit, right?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

On vrijdag 18 augustus 2017 18:14:22 CEST Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> Your thoughts and input?

Thanks all, for the rather useful input! It's definitely something I can work 
with!
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Big Hairy Audacious Goal: Privacy Software

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi all,

I spent some time thinking and working on a proposal for the big hairy
audacious goal (1), the goal that the KDE community sets for itself to
strive for in the next five years. (Context: re-read the thread started
by Kevin with the subject "Proposal: Have the Community Set Ambitious
Goals for Itself".

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Hairy_Audacious_Goal 

I'll try to keep this email short, but I guess I won't be able to,
given scope, importance, complexity and the general mess in my head
regarding this topic.

What I wanted to do...

I wanted to write a goal that is snappy to read, easy to understand,
engaging, worthwhile and measurable. What I came up with so far is:

"In 5 years, KDE software enables and promotes privacy"

Problem with this is: Arguable, this is already the case today, so it
sucks as a goal since it allows us to do or change nothing, it's not
measurable, and I haven't figured it out how to make it measurable.
It's simply too vague.

Alright, so I sat down and tried to make it more concrete, by adding
lots of bullet points and thoughts, but I don't think it's much better.
I'll post them here:

KDE software protects and enables users privacy by:

- During normal usage it doesn't leak information to other users or
  online services when this is not expected to happen
- Examples: Typing into KRunner or using the desktop search will
  not produce artifacts online, but downloading new wallpapers from
  the Store may lead to the user leaving traces, this is expectable
  and reasonable
- KDE Tools provide sound and state-of-the-art methods for using
  private communication, such as encrypted communication with other
  services. Examples: 
- Communication and data exchange with online services uses SSL
  encryption (or similar)
- KMail offers well-integrated GPG encryption and makes it easy and
  straight-forward to use encryption to talk to mail servers, it
  works well with a number of privacy-respecting email service
  providers
- KDE software covers most use-cases to allow the user to privately
  communicate and store his per personal information on services that
  are known to protect the user's privacy
- top notch support for self-hosted email, file storage, cloud
  storage, collaborative editing, file sharing

Measuring (this is *really* lacking):
- what the press writes about us
- what our users think (online fora, polls, e.g.)
- own website promotes privacy (is this central to our communication?)

Tools (can be made more concrete once the above points are fleshed out):
- strategy promotes privacy down into details, see the above
- collaboration with EFF, other organisations (Whonix, Tor, ...?)


So, I could use some help with this, in the form of how this can be
structured, in what form it will be useful, more ambitious, and very
importantly measurable: I want us to be able to sit down in two years
and check: Are we on track? Do we need to change our approach? Do we
need to work harder? And of course: Did we achieve our goal?

Your thoughts and input?
-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org   ⦿http://www.kde.org

Re: Proposal: Have the Community Set Ambitious Goals for Itself

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 15 augustus 2017 00:47:15 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> If I get at least two people to agree in this thread that they will
> submit a goal I commit to making the process work according to the
> proposed timeline.

I'll do that. We probably should coordinate somehow which goals, so we don't 
end up with almost duplicates, or leave out sensible options.

I have the privacy topic in mind which was talked about earlier.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: Proposal: Have the Community Set Ambitious Goals for Itself

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 16:20:11 +0200
Lydia Pintscher  wrote:

> Thanks everyone who worked on putting this together at Akademy. I
> believe this is a way that can work well for us as a community.
> 
> So one of the things we still need to iron out is the timeline. Here
> is a straw man proposal:
> * We work on the proposals now until beginning of October
> * We talk about the proposals during all of October
> * We have a vote on the proposals during the first two weeks of
> November
> * We publish the results in the middle of November
> 
> What do you think?

I like it. Thanks for pushing this important topic.
-- 
sebas

http://vizZzion.org   ⦿http://www.kde.org

Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On maandag 10 juli 2017 13:44:54 CEST Adriaan de Groot wrote:
> > It just occurred to me, that it would be good at this point to gauge with
> > the  active community what a mission would be, some simple questions such
> > as:
> > 
> > - Have you been contributing in any significant way to KDE in the past
> > year?(And how?)
> > - Which of the proposed strategical directions would you support most?
> > 
> > Could give us a way to break out from this circle and tell us what the
> > people  who actually matter think, and what strategy could gain momentum.
> > I
> > think it would provide us with a much stronger decision base and increase
> > the quality of any strategical direction a lot.
> 
> My first reaction is, unfortunately, that your questions will be as self-
> selecting as the current discussion is: loud voices (yours included) will
> have an opinion, and those that don't care will continue to be silent.

> Oh, and I'm right with you wrt. "this discussion is reaching the limits of
> what can be done in email".

I forgot to make that clear: I was thinking of a poll / vote / survey thing, 
lightweight, but not email and get active community members to participate.

Yes, it's gone beyond the limits of what email can do, we have ideas and 
possible directions, now we need to find out what those who are going to do 
the work actually want.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On zondag 9 juli 2017 17:41:03 CEST Kevin Ottens wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> On Friday, 7 July 2017 23:16:32 CEST Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On 2017 M07 7, Fri 07:21:32 CEST Kevin Ottens wrote:
> > > > How about collecting ideas for that ?
> > > > We have already 5.
> > > 
> > > 5? I missed a couple I guess. I spotted only "privacy" and "freedom" so
> > > far.
> > 
> > For completeness:
> > - privacy
> > - (practical) freedom
> > - reliability
> > - KDE apps for Android - konquering mobile ;-)
> > - cross-platform KDE applications - konquering Windows and OSX ;-)
> 
> OK, I somehow didn't spot the last three in this thread. Thanks for digging
> them up then.
> 
> > > Note I'd be personally inclined to do an early filtering of them to
> > > avoid
> > > things which are way too generic and impossible to action. The reasoning
> > > being that if you line them up against more precise things they'd be
> > > picked up every time since they'd be more easily fitting larger
> > > groups...
> > > but they'd be counter-productive at building a direction.
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > > One simple criterion for that could be "no single term proposal" because
> > > then you're just showing up a concept and that single word can be
> > > ambiguous enough to be misunderstood too. See for instance how I didn't
> > > quite complain about "privacy" but I did for "freedom", it's just than
> > > in
> > > one case I see a clear direction and actions we can take and not in the
> > > other one. Can be very different for someone else!
> > > 
> > > After all we're talking about selecting something like a 5 years
> > > strategy,
> > > I think it deserve more than just a word.
> > 
> > Maybe it could be even shorter like e.g. 2 years ?
> > 5 years feels like a very long time, 2 years feels plannable.
> 
> Somehow 2 years feel a bit short to me, this kind of "aim for the moon"
> goals require quite some time, especially in a community of mostly
> volunteers working on their spare time.
> 
> But at least to me we identified two things which need to be found before we
> can put in place a proper approach to try to really tackle our original
> problem:
>  1) how to build the strategy consensus when the time comes?
>  2) at which frequency do we want to look for the next strategy or decide to
> continue the current one?
> 
> Once we got those two answered then we can probably kick start this for the
> first strategy, likely with the five you mentioned above being evaluated.
> 
> Of course, I'm writing this assuming I'm not mistaken the document as we
> have right now won't be able to cut it. If everyone is fine with it and I'm
> alone thinking there's a problem I don't want to bully the community into
> more soul searching (although it looks like we did the most painful work
> and what I'm proposing sounds simpler... famous last words).

I personally don't feel bullied at all, I think we've laid out some basics, 
but we could definitely enhance that with more direction.

I do think that this mailinglist is the wrong medium at this point, though. 
Especially the discussions around vision, mission and strategy have become a 
bit of a repetitive echo chamber (the tail end of this thread is better, 
though), where the same people repeat the same opinions without much progress 
on a clear direction. A few loud voices (mine included) won't budge much and 
are trying to push their agenda's, the rest has long stopped caring. That 
isn't good at all.

It just occurred to me, that it would be good at this point to gauge with the 
active community what a mission would be, some simple questions such as:

- Have you been contributing in any significant way to KDE in the past year?   
  (And how?)
- Which of the proposed strategical directions would you support most?

Could give us a way to break out from this circle and tell us what the people 
who actually matter think, and what strategy could gain momentum. I think it 
would provide us with a much stronger decision base and increase the quality 
of any strategical direction a lot.

Thoughts?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On woensdag 5 juli 2017 12:17:10 CEST Kevin Ottens wrote:
> IOW, knowing the organization as a whole decided on some sort of direction
> at least for a while would prompt me into looking beyond my usual comfort
> zone. By doing that with the two examples above we might see a stronger
> influx of contributors in the current focus zone ('cause promo) who are
> more likely to then also look at the other stuff we do ('cause
> cross-pollination).

Reading through your thoughts, I think we should put privacy into that primary 
focus position. It's a core value for us, something we all agree on, and 
extremely relevant in today's context.

Should we make privacy our main focus for the next 5 years?
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Kevin,

On zondag 2 juli 2017 03:43:57 CEST Kevin Ottens wrote:
> In my opinion our answer to "where we want to go" was supposed to be
> something else than "nowhere in particular". Then I think we're falling
> very short on that. We face a problem, and instead of putting our efforts
> to find where to go to solve it, we're been pouring over the years massive
> efforts into describing where we currently are. That's understandable but
> it means we went off track in my opinion. If we stop at what we got so far,
> we're in my opinion falling into a kind of conservatism trap. The community
> will stay put and will keep shrinking as people loose interest and less new
> blood gets in.
> 
> I hope for another fate. Because of that, I don't think this is a proper
> conclusion to the Evolving KDE effort or a proper answer to Paul's talk.

Thanks for the very thoughtful and critical reply. A first thought, right 
after I read it: We may well have outgrown the phase where we could come to a 
shared and clear direction for all of our software and the organisation. In 
that light, probably the best we could do is to capture what we have in common 
and codify that, this is the Mission as proposed.

I agree with you, however, that it lacks ambition and doesn't tell us where we 
want to go in clear words. Finding that direction is a rather contentious 
topic, and it lead to great frustration among the people involved. There are a 
lot of different agenda's on the table, and very little room for compromise in 
the sense of "Okay, *that* is a really good idea and I think it's worthwhile 
pursuing, even if it's not why and what I'm working on under the KDE umbrella 
right now". I think we already are a more loose organisation than we would 
have thought (which can be fine).

On the other hand, the vision effort has lead to a couple of subprojects 
thinking more actively about this topic, and coming to more focused 
conclusions. Plasma is among those (I'm not naming that because it's the most 
shining example, just because it's what I know best), and I think *that* is a 
very good thing.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 27 juni 2017 07:24:21 CEST Luca Beltrame wrote:
> Il giorno Mon, 29 May 2017 21:17:29 +0200
> Lydia Pintscher  ha scritto:
> 
> 
> 
> > I'd like to invite you all to take a look at the current draft and
> > provide your constructive feedback so we can use this as the basis for
> > our work for the next years.
> 
> As far as I can see, is
> 
> mentors people to contribute to Free and Open-Source software
> 
> sufficient to tell that also non-coders can participate in KDE?

I think the whole Mission is, nowhere does it limit the contributions to 
programming.
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Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 13 juni 2017 22:00:02 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:36 AM, Sebastian Kügler <se...@kde.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > On zondag 11 juni 2017 18:02:56 CEST Albert Vaca wrote:
> 
> 
> >> Thanks for putting this together! Some (late and) minor thoughts on
> >> wording:
> >> 
> >> I like that we state we want to "integrate well with other Free products
> >> to
> >> complete the experience". I would explicitly mention "other Free
> >> *software*
> >> and products", to make clear that we don't want to be a closed ecosystem
> >> where KDE software only integrates with other KDE software.
> >> 
> >> I also think that the statement "maintains a diverse and inclusive
> >> community" is fundamental in a truly open online community nowadays. I
> >> would go further and say "a diverse, inclusive *and safe* community".
> 
> > I think those are excellent suggestions. The Free products was I think an
> > omission, since without software, this doesn't make sense in our context.
> > The "safe" is something I really like in there, because it stresses
> > mutual care and kindness that we want to exercise. That is something we
> > always values in KDE and supported by our actions (CoC being a
> > cornerstone).
> 
> re your edit: When reading the initial wording this includes
> integration with other Free "things" for me as well. I am specifically
> thinking about Marble integrating Wikipedia articles, Kipi plugins
> allowing upload to Wikimedia Commons, Amarok integrating with a number
> of free music services and so on. Albert wrote it as "other Free
> Software and products". I think that captures it a bit better.

I agree, good call!

> Everyone: Thanks a lot for the valuable and constructive input.
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Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 13 juni 2017 14:16:25 CEST Kenny Coyle wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together, I can only see it being positive going
> forward.
> 
> The text itself is very clear and concise.
> 
> On the last section about promoting development, I'm wondering if it's
> worthwhile having a statement about the infrastructure that KDE maintains
> and develops? How about the following:
> 
> To promote the development of Free and Open-Source Software, KDE
> …
> maintains reliable technical infrastructure to support the community,
> evolving with the community

I think that fits well into the strategy part. I wonder if we should 
explicitely mention that we want this infrastructure to be based on Free 
software and open standards as much as possible, since that's come up over and 
over again in the past when we discussed important infrastructural changes. 
(Own git vs. github, phabricator vs. other tools, etc.)

What do others think about this?
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sebas

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Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

On zondag 11 juni 2017 18:02:56 CEST Albert Vaca wrote:
> Thanks for putting this together! Some (late and) minor thoughts on wording:
> 
> I like that we state we want to "integrate well with other Free products to
> complete the experience". I would explicitly mention "other Free *software*
> and products", to make clear that we don't want to be a closed ecosystem
> where KDE software only integrates with other KDE software.
> 
> I also think that the statement "maintains a diverse and inclusive
> community" is fundamental in a truly open online community nowadays. I
> would go further and say "a diverse, inclusive *and safe* community".

I think those are excellent suggestions. The Free products was I think an 
omission, since without software, this doesn't make sense in our context. The 
"safe" is something I really like in there, because it stresses mutual care  
and kindness that we want to exercise. That is something we always values in 
KDE and supported by our actions (CoC being a cornerstone).

> Apart from that, I agree with every point in the strategy and I'm happy we
> have decided to write it down and make it public.

Cool!
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Re: latest draft for mission (and strategy)

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Agustin,

On Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:07:37 PM CEST Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote:
> thanks for driving this discussion. It is a needed one. Here are my
> early comments:
> 
> * "builds on open standards to prevent "lock-in" - I think that
> prevent lock-in is not a reason but a consequence of building KDE
> software on open standards. open stardars are aabout transparency,
> agreement, provenance...

That makes it too vague in my opinion. Preventing lock-in is a tangible 
benefit for our users, it is in fact why many instituional users choose Free 
software over proprietary offerings. We should call it by its name to make 
clear why we do this, and why users want and need it.

> * "provides usable security and privacy features to protect against
> surveillance and data theft" there is legal surveillance that we do
> not want to prevent. In any case, privacy is a right challenged in our
> digital era like was not challenged before, in the analogic era. Is
> the right to privacy the central point, not the prevention against
> data theft. You can prevent your data from being stolen through
> proprietary software too, among other options.

Legal says exactly nothing, since it's bound to a jurisdiction, a concept 
which doesn't exactly work in the internet era. Something can be legal in a 
given location, yet morally wrong. Also, we're not judging (a Free software 
principle), we're allowing privacy, full stop.

> * "have consistent, easy to use human interfaces" and "provide a
> seamless user experience" seems to me close enough to justify that we
> condense them in a single statement.

One is about the interface quality itself, the other is about a cross-device 
experience, I think they warrant separate mentioning to make the mission less 
fluffy and more concrete.

> * I would be carefull with the words "integration" and
> "interoperates". In order to work well, both concepts requires two
> parties. We cannot guarantee any of them by ourselves.

We can strive for it, however. Nothing wrong with that.

> * Linked with the above, this statement is a set up for failure:
> "interoperates well with proprietary software, formats and services" .
> In simple words, it is not in our hands to provide a satisfactory
> experience when dealing with proprietary software/formats/services. I
> would re-formulate this in a way that reflects that we will do our
> best.

Again, I think it's absolutely sound to state that we want our software to 
work well with proprietary offerings. It provides real value to users and 
again makes it clearer why we do what we do.

> * "empowers users independent of their abilities" I find this
> statement vague. How are we going to empower them? what for? why it is
> so important for us to empower software users? I would try to develop
> it a little.

How? :)

> * I have a fundamental issue with the whole "user story". We are
> upstream. We only reach 0.1% of our currrent users directly. We live
> in an industry that has "downstream", that is, integrators and
> distributors. I truly believe that one of our limiting factors is our
> belief that we can reach users "by ourselves", through direct
> interaction. This idea, which is popular in our community, has its
> reflection in this Mission statement. No mention to any collaboration
> with dowsntream in this section, to reach users.

While we are upstream, we're responsible for the largest part of the user 
experience, we develop the software, we create the UI, we fix the bugs that 
annoy people.

> I have been fighting this widespread belief since I joined in 2005.
> Our situation is worse today than ever was, in my opinion. I would
> really like to see ourselves turning the situation upside down, which
> can start by discussing and ultimately reflecting in this Mission
> statement how important it is for us the ecosystem that allow us to
> bring our software to user's hands.

Please elaborate what you want to do, and how. Your statement is really vague 
and I fail to make sense of it, possibly others have the same problem.

Cheers,
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sebas

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Re: Kubuntu and other KDE distribution's use of KDE infrastructure

[Sebastian Kügler]

On donderdag 12 januari 2017 11:18:07 CET Harald Sitter wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Valorie Zimmerman
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line: we would like a Phab instance so that we can use the task
> > board, and perhaps the built-in wiki. The sysadmins want the KDE
> > Community to give the yea or nay to that request, and perhaps clarify
> > in the Manifesto what KDE infra can be used by "non" KDE projects.
> 
> Didn't we have this bikeshed in 2013 with the wikis *after* the
> manifesto was put in place already? Surely there are better things to
> do than discuss the same things over and over again.
> 
> Manifesto says one of our values is "Inclusivity to ensure that all
> people are welcome to join us and participate;". Be inclusive, give
> Kubuntu and Fedora a place on phab to manage their todos. Costs us
> nothing, helps our friends make their product which features our
> products better. If either starts calling themselves a KDE project or
> misrepresents their association with KDE, hit them with the manifesto
> bat.
> 
> Since we have no community voting platform, take this to the e.v. if
> being nice really needs voting on.

Well said. +1 to being nice.
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Re: KDE Licensing Policy Updates

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 20 september 2016 22:54:54 CEST Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On the other hand: Is Qt still used much for web services? 

It may in the future. During QtCon, Lars Knoll mentioned to make Qt render to 
web browser as one possible future goal. We also have vague plans for kwin to 
do that.

> And if so: Are
> our frameworks of much use for those?

Yes.
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sebas

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Re: Creating a map of KDE contributors?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On dinsdag 20 september 2016 11:49:43 CEST Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Gnome already do this
> https://wiki.gnome.org/GnomeWorldWide
> 
> and I have vauge memories of KDE doing it in the past too, or maybe I dreamt
> that

You didn't dream that: https://dot.kde.org/2002/03/16/kde-worldwide-goes-live
-- 
sebas

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Re: [kde-community] Register for QtCon

[Sebastian Kügler]

On donderdag 4 augustus 2016 10:07:53 CEST Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> If you plan to come to QtCon and have not registered yet please do so
> asap. On-site registration right at the event is highly discouraged
> this year as it makes the organisation of the event considerably
> harder for us. Please do register in advance at https://conf.qtcon.org

Is this also necessary for speakers?
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Re: [kde-community] KDE store sprint

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi all,

Due to accommodation facilities not being available during the planned days, 
we want to move the meeting into June, specifically:

5.6. (arrival date) - 9.6. (departure).

If that changes anything about your ability to participate, please let me know 
by Sunday night, we're happy to accommodate (hah!).

Thanks, and have a nice weekend,

-- sebas

On Tuesday, April 05, 2016 12:47:54 PM Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> As you may have followed, at Blue Systems, we're in the process of
> revamping  the infrastructure around add-ons, basically what is currently
> served by opendesktop.org.
>  
> One of our goals is to open up development of an ocs-compatible server 
> component. As we're nearing completion of the underlying infrastructure and 
> licensing bits, we'd like to actually start thinking about its future, and
> get more people involved to think about it with us. To us, the current
> opendesktop.org is only the beginning, we can imagine it becoming a truly
> Free and open software store for KDE and others in the future.
>  
> To start this effort, we'd like to invite interested people to a sprint to 
> make plans, discuss strategies and tactics and generally start an open 
> development process.
>  
> The meeting could take place in week 21, between 23 May and 28 May, and
> we'd  be happy to host it as a 3 days sprint in Bielefeld, Germany -- but
> we're flexible in this regard.
>  
> If you're interested in attending this meeting, please reply to this thread
> or  let me know via email, so we can gauge interest and perhaps start
> making travel arrangements.

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Re: [kde-community] user stats for Neon

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, April 14, 2016 05:49:18 PM Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
> One idea: KDE's tradition is integration of experience; how about a single
> "Do not track" setting for apps (not just for the Plasma) like it's the
> case for browsers?

I'd prefer a much simpler and easier to understand thing:

"Plasma does not track"

...unless you tell it to do so, but in its pristine settings, it doesn't. This 
message can set us apart positively.
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Re: [kde-community] KDE store sprint

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Alexander,

On Saturday, April 09, 2016 09:52:37 AM Andreas Cord-Landwehr wrote:
> Hi, I would also be interested in that sprint, especially with a KDE Edu
> specific view on requirements (in particular language learning, but also
> learning resources for applications in general).
> I am probably available from 26 to 28 all day, other days only at evenings;
> but I am living so close to Bielefeld that I can simply reach it by car and
> do not need any travel/hotel sponsoring.

Wonderful. I'm finishing the list of attendees this week and will send around 
an email with more specifics after that.

Cheers,
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Re: [kde-community] KDE store sprint

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Wednesday, April 06, 2016 10:12:13 PM Ben Cooksley wrote:
> Which Alexander do I need to contact? I can probably arrange that...

I'll get you in contact off-list.
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Re: [kde-community] KDE store sprint

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Ben,

On Wednesday, April 06, 2016 09:06:56 PM Ben Cooksley wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Sebastian Kügler <se...@kde.org> wrote:

> > As you may have followed, at Blue Systems, we're in the process of
> > revamping the infrastructure around add-ons, basically what is currently
> > served by opendesktop.org.
> 
> Two questions if I may

Sure. :)

> 1) In the past opendesktop.org transferred to us nightly a copy of
> pre-OCS get hot new stuff formatted information and associated data.
> This supports KDE 3 and early KDE 4 era applications, as well as
> applications which never transitioned to using OCS. You'd be surprised
> how many hits it still gets
> 
> What are the plans in regards to this data export?
> The data needs to be transferred to us as the applications are coded
> to use a download.kde.org url, although this should be redirectable
> without issue if need be.
> 
> 2) There are some RDF (predecessor to RSS) formatted feeds which we
> download from a hidden URL on the opendesktop.org site, and then serve
> up on www.kde.org. I believe the opendesktop.org site points clients
> to the kde.org hosted copy of these feeds in it's metadata markup, at
> least it did last I checked.
> 
> What is planned here in the future?
> Unfortunately as Akregator and many other clients will already be
> configured to retrieve the feed from kde.org we'll need to support
> this in some fashion (redirects shouldn't be an issue here if need
> be).

I can't tell you much about that, since I'm blissfully unaware of these 
ancient things. It sounds like something we should be able to make possible 
(or keep doing), but you'll have to talk to Alexander for that. Can you get in 
contact with him directly?

Cheers,
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - final version

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 10:53:03 PM David Jarvie wrote:
> This may read a bit better, although it does slightly alter the emphasis:
> 
> "A world in which everyone has control over their digital life and enjoys
> freedom and privacy."

I love this. It conveys what we want, and brings in a positive angle to the 
freedom and privacy goals.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - final version

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, March 15, 2016 08:26:15 AM Stephen Kelly wrote:
> Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > "A world in which everyone enjoys freedom and privacy and has control
> > over their digital life."
> >
> > Unless there are major objections within the next week I would like to
> > conclude the process and from now on use this as our vision statement.
> 
> Not a major objection, but some feedback: It's very wordy at the end 
> especially with all the 'and's in it. 
> 
> For me that's loss of impact. 
> 
> I much preferred what Jos arrived at:  
> 
>  http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.community/2455/focus=2523
> 
> I didn't see what took it back in that wordy direction after that part of 
> the discussion.

We discussed it last week, and found that the shorter version proposed by Jos 
is leaving too much in the middle. While "control over digital life" captures 
very much the idea, we want it to be concrete as well and reference the core 
values freedom and privacy. I think it's still short enough.

We joked that if we cut out too much, we're reducing it to more or less "good 
stuff", while I can certainly agree with that, it's lacking a concrete 
direction.

Hence, we went back to the slightly wordier version, which includes freedom 
and privacy.

Note that we can still use just one of these concepts in slogans, think for 
example about the "digital freedom" t-shirts we had for some time.

Cheers,
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - final version

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, March 14, 2016 10:24:45 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Monday, March 14, 2016 14:58:57 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> ...
> 
> > Next steps:
> > * publish the vision. I'm still working out what needs doing.
> 
> can we please try to publish vision and mission together ?
> If things go well, maybe can get that done until end of April.

I wouldn't want to wait any more with this. We have discussed this at length, 
and I feel that it's time to get it sealed and published and then move on, one 
step at a time.

Let's finalize the first step, then move on to the next.

Delaying it makes it demotivating, and to be quite honest, the process has 
been dragging along in the past, multiple people have simply given up, waiting 
longer makes more people give up and the last thing we need is even less 
involvement, or mind-share.

Let's go ahead and seal this and publish.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 23, 2016 04:50:16 PM Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> After reading all of the above, which put into words my inchaote
> thoughts, I would like to offer the following version:
> 
> KDE: control your digital life
> 
> Freedom, technology, software, privacy, all of that is IN there.

I think it bears mentioning, though, since "controlling your digital life" is 
really too vague, a fancy remote control could do that. ;-)
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Friday, February 12, 2016 09:15:09 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Friday, February 12, 2016 21:00:37 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> ...
> 
> > Maybe what you want is an overarching product vision instead of a
> > community
> > vision, after all?
> 
> I think I can answer at least for everybody from the alternative-draft
> team,  maybe also for the people who want more "direction" in KDE: yes.

Obvious suggestion: go forth and create product visions? (We did the same, 
it's a useful exercise, but orthogonal to this discussion.)
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 10:08:19 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:03:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:15:21 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > I'll also start a new sub-thread.
> > > Since this vision draft is very broad: what kind of projects do you
> > > consider  to be covered by this vision draft ?
> > > Or, the other way round, are there projects, or types of projects which
> > > you see as not part of this vision ?

I don't know what exactly you mean with "being covered by" or "see as part of 
the vision", but let's assume "projects that identify with the goals described 
in our vision.

> > Sure. Projects that use open source licenses for purely economical
> > reasons, or those that don't care about the user, or her privacy.
> >
> > A lot of it is about priorities, and the reason why people work on these
> > project, their goals.
> 
> Let's get a bit more concrete.
> So I guess most GNU projects would fit ? Bash, gcc, emacs ?

GCC and Emacs (I couldn't find info about bash) require copyright assigment 
through a mandatory contributor license agreements *1. That would be against 
KDE's manifesto. It makes sense to work together, but we disagree about the 
how to do it.

> What about non-software projects like Project Gutenberg (free books),
> Jamendo  (free indie music), SubSurfWiki.org (free knowledge) ?
> Paraview (empowering students and scientists) ?

The draft states clear that we do Free software.

*1 https://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html
   http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE

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Re: [kde-community] Vision, mission and manifesto - what is their definition and purpose?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 09:42:31 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > Also, what do you think about the relation between vision and mission ?
> >
> > When I joined the "vision team", my original proposal was to only define a
> > mission, because I felt that visions make more sense for products than for
> > communities.
> > However, Lydia convinced me that having a common vision for the future to
> > work towards can have more positive effect on a sense of purpose and
> > motivation than only defining a strategy, so I agreed to define a vision
> > first and then derive the mission from that.
> 
> That's just Lydias opinion.

No need for this, not even if you think it's funny. For the record, it's *not* 
just Lydia's opinion, so don't try to give that impression.

> No, seriously, in the last weeks several people contacted me in private
> email  and expressed that they are not exactly happy, some even seriously
> frustrated with the strong emphasis on non-technical topics in KDE in the
> last few years, and they would prefer to get some more emphasis on
> technology and products back.

You know, same here: People express concerns about people who want to steer 
KDE into a self-fullfilling, narrow-minded playground project. You know what I 
tell them: Please take part in the open discussions about that -- that is why 
we're having these discussions.

In a do-ocracy such as KDE, you take part and are able to influence direction, 
or you stand at the sidelines and watch, but you don't stand at the sidelines 
and watch and dictate through backdoor politics.

> This (obviously) includes me. Maybe this also includes many of the people
> who  said "vision, strategy and focus" in the evolve-survey ?
> 
> Sorry to be blunt: for me, a catchy one-sentence-vision statement *alone* 
> won't impress me, everyone has one today. It won't give me a sense of
> purpose  or anything. It's just a catchy phrase. Maybe I'm too old for
> that.

Could you please try to stick to the facts and ontopic -- then you wouldn't 
have to be blunt. I think this discussion is hard enough to follow as it is 
already: Nobody requires the vision statement to be just one sentence, we want 
to try to make it as clear as possible. It's not like we're not limited to 140 
characters here. Please don't throw such strawmen into the discussion.

> Anyway, I think vision and mission should be defined together, otherwise
> we'll  get ugly discussions once we have decided on the vision, and get
> into mission- land.

As I said, I think your draft makes a fine mission statement, we could amend 
the vision draft we came up with.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 08:40:07 AM David Edmundson wrote:
> With the unfocussed vision,

Unfocused?

One vision focuses on technologies (Qt, GUI, etc.), one on values (Freedom, 
user control, privacy). Both provide focus, just very different ones.

A vision is a goal, a desired result. That's why I think focusing on 
technologies is weak: technology is a means to an end, what we want to achieve 
with our software are the focus point of "Vision 1": Freedom, user control, 
privacy.

As Martin said very well already: By defining our goals not in terms of 
technology but in terms of values and principles, we don't lose the technology 
aspect, we are still experts in Qt, have awesome libraries, a history unlike 
anyone else, and a community around it.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:07:56 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 10:41:07 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> ...
> 
> > As Martin said very well already: By defining our goals not in terms of
> > technology but in terms of values and principles, we don't lose the
> > technology aspect, we are still experts in Qt, 
> 
> sure we'll lose it long-term.
> If we don't focus at all on Qt,

Nobody says that we don't focus at all on Qt. Our software is built around Qt, 
and nobody wants to change that. It's because Qt is an excellent solution to 
many of our problems, it just isn't a goal in itself, but a tool.

> won't KDE become a mixture of projects
> using  many different technologies ? This is how I understand the goal of
> this draft. If that's so, then Qt will only be one among many in KDE, not
> KDEs main competence anymore.
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Re: [kde-community] Vision, mission and manifesto - what is their definition and purpose?

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 22:56:32 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> analyzing the current discussions around the KDE Vision, I have identified
> one problem which could underlie much of the tension:
> It's still unclear what we mean by "vision", "mission" and "manifesto". We
> cannot really consult a dictionary or encyclopedia to answer this, because
> there is no clear definition. Heck, even the Wikipedia articles on vision
> and mission contradict each other and are even contradicting in themselves!
> That means that every one of us probably has a slightly different
> definition of them.
> The problem now is that we are wasting time and energy debating
> unproductively, not because we want different things, but because we have
> never agreed on a common definition of the three.
> 
> That's why I'd suggest that, before discussing the vision any further, we
> should agree on a definition. It doesn't have to be one with which everybody
> wholeheartedly agrees, because it's mostly used for communication.
> 
> To start this, here are my proposed definitions:
> --
> 1. Manifesto:
> Definition: For me, this is what documents the defining _values_ and
> _identity_ of an organization (or rather a movement, because regular
> organizations rarely have manifestos).
> 
> Answered question: What is KDE? What makes a KDE member?
> 
> Purpose: To make explicit what a movement has in common, as a guide for
> someone who wants to decide if they want to be part of that movement and to
> remind people of why they are part of it, should they ever gravitate away
> from these values and identity.

This triggered a thought...

One of our core values is common ownership (we have encoded this in our 
culture very deeply). We haven't explicitely defined who can become one of the 
owners, say a "KDE shareholder". Joining KDE as a project gives you some kind 
of voice (next to the benefits and duties described in the manifesto) and with 
it the right to define and shape its future. We, in principle, we extend the 
common ownership of the with all its assets and history to those who identify 
themselves with our manifesto, with our values and our way of working.

This makes complete sense, at least in *my* view of the world, the common 
ownership is a basic principle of an open project. I think it's in our nature 
to be open to participation.

At the same time, Free software, or rather "open source" is based on economics 
and benefits of working together at a large scale. It's also engraved in what 
we do.

The result, mutual benefit and shared goals, provide a great base for working 
together.

> 3. Mission
> Definition: For me, a mission describes _how_ an organization or movement
> intends to achieve their vision. It is on a much more strategic level than
> the vision, and likely to change over time through changing circumstances
> or trial and error.
> 
> Answered question: How do we reach our goals?
> 
> Purpose: To align efforts, achieve synergies and avoid duplicate effort. It
> guides contributors who are not sure what strategy to follow.

When reading the "alternative", technologically focused draft proposal, I 
think it makes a fine mission statement, it explains what our strategy is to 
reach our goals, so how we work to achieve them. 
In that light, I see both proposals as complementary.

I can find myself in your proposed definitions. Also thanks for bringing a bit 
of structure into the discussion (which I think is otherwise fruitful).
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Re: [kde-community] Differences between proposed vision drafts (or "inclusive" vs "focused")

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, February 04, 2016 08:49:55 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> Still we don't see linear algebra libraries or build tools as the main goal 
> KDE is trying to achieve (...says the guy who maintained the KDE
> buildsystem for more than 7 years).

Next counter-example: The Eigen library, a linear algebra library which was 
initially developed under KDE. It has moved out at some point -- I don't know 
the reasons. In KDE software, it's used in Krita, Step and Kalzium and a few 
smaller bits, as far as I could find out. Point in case: this other random 
example is flawed.

I understand that you're saying it doesn't have a place in KDE.

Would you welcome it if it used Qt?
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Friday, February 05, 2016 05:00:28 PM Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 10:10:27 Lydia Pintscher wrote:
> > The first draft reads as follows:
> > "KDE, through the creation of Free software,
> 
> "through the creation of Free software" sounds like (part of) a mission 
> statement to me. I'd leave it out of the vision statement.
> 
> > enables users
> 
> IMO "users" is too technical as term for a vision. I suggest to replace it 
> with "everyone".
> 
> > to control their digital life.
> 
> I like this.
> 
> > KDE software enables privacy,
> 
> Yes!
> 
> > makes simple things easy and complex scenarios possible
> 
> To me this sounds very not-saying-anything in a complicated way. Also, I
> think  it superfluous because it's already contained in "enables [...] to
> control their digital life".
> 
> > while crossing device boundaries."
> 
> While it may be nice to mention this it's probably better moved to the
> mission  statement.
> 
> 
> So, how about
> "KDE enables everyone to control their digital life without compromising
> their  privacy."

That's getting really catchy!

Really useful feedback, thanks Ingo. I agree with the points you make.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:02:47 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> More devices will arrive, each requiring a shell/launcher and the
> apps.

I think devices without a graphical user interface, driven by speech or 
sensors will be more and more common.

The point really is, are we sure that important future technology will be 
driven by graphical user interfaces? Some probably will, but I wouldn't make 
it a deciding aspect for what we accept as KDE projects. The further you look 
into the future, the less likely this kind of assumption is to hold true.
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, February 08, 2016 13:12:51 Alexander Dymo wrote:
> The "inclusive" vision naturally doesn't have this problem because its
> attitude is: "let's have everybody on board".

You're misunderstanding this draft then, let me clarify: 

We define the goal for KDE not in technical terms, but in terms of Freedom, 
user control and privacy.
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Re: [kde-community] RFC: Distribution outreach program

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Saturday, January 30, 2016 07:09:16 PM Aleix Pol wrote:
> > Personally not, but I'd like other people from distributions to chime in.
> 
> How about coming up with a set of scripts that give score to an
> installation?
> 
> This way we can say "OpenSuse scored X points/K stars in our
> compatibility test" and yet we have some metrics to help improve
> integration.

I think a set of scripts would just encourage people to game the system. The 
real problem is user experience, and that's a vague enough concept that it 
can't be checked with scripts.

It would be good to have a list of things that should just work for users, and 
check for that. I think the checking itself needs to be done by a human, 
though, to judge if it's just a script passing, or if things actually work the 
way they should.

This check-list would of course be used by distros in the first place to make 
sure that a set of basic functionality passes.

I'm not against automated testing at all, I just think it doesn't work at the 
highest level and bears pitfalls of distros gaming the system, or people 
actually care more about the number of points they get than the actual user 
experience.
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Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Claudio,

Since you addressed me directly, and I was involved with the process, I'd like 
to chime in here.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 06:55:37 PM Claudio Desideri wrote:
> We'd loved to continue development of ocs-server (and clients) but the
> current status of things seems not too encouraging.

I'm glad to hear that you're still interested in ocs-server, but at the same 
time I'm puzzled, because that is not what you told me when we talked 
extensively about the project. You told me that you are not planning to work 
on ocs-server in your free time, but would be available to get paid to do it. 
If you would get paid to, you'd participate in a meeting. 
I went out on a limb to even get you pocket money (which is highly unusual for 
such meetings) which you requested, on top of covering your other expenses, 
just for you to be able to participate. You canceled your attendance for 
reasons unrelated to the project, at least that's what you told me, only 2 
days before the meeting.

I made really sure (told you multiple times, I just reviewed the IRC logs, I'm 
happy to send them to you if you find that your memory is lacking) that we're 
looking at it open-mindedly, and if you care about the subject, I would try 
hard to get roadblocks removed for you to participate. You chose not to.

If you feel being met with unfairness, I'm sorry to hear that, but after 
having another critical look at how things went down exactly, I think you're 
misrepresenting important facts (I could point out many of them in your email, 
but I don't think it really contributes to the discussion, not any more than 
asking you to re-read the parent email asking yourself what are facts, and 
which parts are your own assumptions.) 
Next time you have doubts, questions, or somesuch, and you're struggling to 
find answers, please reach out to me before coming to conclusions that may be 
based on misinformation and incorrect assumptions. Until you do that, please 
assume positive intentions of those involved.

I did a review of the code of the ocs-server project, focusing on code quality 
and maturity, feature completeness and maintainability to get an idea if it 
could be a replacement for existing OCS services in the near future. You told 
me yourself that it has architectural and practical security flaws. Problems 
I've found during review is that the code is rather incomplete so it can't be 
a short term replacement for existing OCS services offered by opendesktop.org, 
there hasn't been any substantial activity after your GSoC project, and a 
general low level of quality leading to maintenance problems down the road. 
Another issue I've found was the relative immaturity of the project, and that 
progress was mostly limited to periods during GSoC (there hasn't been a single 
commit to ocs-server after the pencils down deadline this year in August, for 
example). I didn't get the impression that it's a healthy project, and lengthy 
conversation with you didn't convince me otherwise.

> they told us our project could be merged or shut down because the 
> community doens't allow concurrent implementations inside KDE)

I'm not sure who told you that. There's a long list of past events which prove 
otherwise, Konqueror vs. Rekonq to name a popular one. KDE doesn't "shut down" 
projects, and there are mechnisms in place which make this impossible: our 
open and inclusive processes and the very nature of Free software licenses.

Cheers,
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[kde-community] can you give a talk at Linuxwochen Wien?

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi all, 

An invitation to participate in the Linuxwochen Wien has landed in my inbox. 
As I won't be able to make it, perhaps someone else (living closer?) will be.

If you're in Wien, or in Austria, KDE and the organisers would surely 
appreciate if you could give a talk there. For that, please get in contact 
wiht Mr Willich directly, or follow the procedure at
http://www.linuxwochen.at/call-for-participation-der-linuxwochen-wien-2016

I'm attaching the original invitation to this email for more details.

Cheers,

-- sebas


2016-01-11 22:09 GMT+01:00 Andreas Willich :
Sehr geehrter Herr Trobin

Mein Name ist Andreas Willich und ich bin Mitorganisator der Linuxwochen Wien.
Ich schreibe Sie an, da Sie als KDE Represent für Österreich angeführt sind.

Kurz zu den Linuxwochen:
Die Linuxwochen Wien ist eine 3-tätige Veranstaltung die jedes Jahr im FH 
Technikum Wien stattfindet.
Wir haben an die 100 Vorträge aus den verschiedensten Themen aus dem Open 
Source/Open Hardware Feld.
Heuer finden sie vom 28.-30. April statt.

Wir befinden uns gerade in der Phase der diesjährigen Veranstaltung und suchen 
noch Vortragende.
Wir wurden letztes Jahr zum wiederholten Male angesprochen, ob denn 
Ansprechpartner von großen Open Source Projekten, wie eben KDE, da sind.
Leider mussten wir das meistens verneinen. Die Linuxwochen Wien Vortragenden 
sind fast ausschließlich aus der Community und das großteils selbstständig auf 
Grund unserer CfP- Aussendungen.
Wenn sich nun keiner aus einer Community nicht meldet, ist dadurch meistens 
gleich das ganze Projekt nicht präsent.
Um das besser steuern zu können, schreiben wir dieses Jahr die Projekte direkt 
an.

Und somit bin ich beim Grund dieser E-Mail. 

Wäre es denn möglich, dass jemand von KDE einen Vortrag bei uns hält? 

Weiters haben wir einen Community- Bereich in dem die verschiedensten 
Communities ausstellen.
Hier hätten wir auch die Möglichkeit das KDE ausstellt.
Auf ein paar Fotos hier 
(http://www.linuxwochen.at/impressionen-linuxwochen-wien-2015) sieht man ihn.

Hier noch die Call- for- Participation Meldung: http://www.linuxwochen.at/
call-for-participation-der-linuxwochen-wien-2016


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Andreas Willich


Verein Linuxwochen
Museumsplatz 1/49
1070 Wien
ZVR: 320875837
programm2...@linuxwochen.at

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Re: [kde-community] Phabricator: Make it happen already!

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 20:57:25 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
 +1
 (I am using it as if it was official)

Same here. The Plasma team is in the process of migrating to phaaab! 
already.
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Re: [kde-community] Phabricator: Make it happen already!

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 16:00:56 David Edmundson wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Sebastian Kügler se...@kde.org wrote:
  On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 20:57:25 Jaroslaw Staniek wrote:
   +1
   (I am using it as if it was official)
  
  Same here. The Plasma team is in the process of migrating to
  phaaab!
  already.
 
 To clarify, the mobile only stuff is currently in there for trial.
 The rest is pending.

.. and the docs todos are in there already, as well.
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Re: [kde-community] Updating TechBase Getting_Started pages

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 09:53:58 John Layt wrote:
 I've started to update the old TechBase Getting_Started pages for the
 new KF5 world [1].
 
 My aim is to teach the one simplest quickest way to build KF5 for new
 KDE contributors. There's a few key concepts I want this rewrite to
 follow:
 1) There is only one way to do things, no giving alternatives
 2) There is only KF5, no KDE4
 3) There is only kdesrc-build, no manual messing around
 
 The three build scenarios (= new dev personas) that will be presented will
 be: 1) Build an app only using packaged Qt and KF5
 2) Build Plasma only using packaged Qt and KF5
 3) Build Frameworks using packaged Qt
 
 All the more detailed or historic information will be removed to other
 parts of TechBase [2]. New build instructions for external devs just
 wanting to use a Framework or two should also go here and not
 Getting_Started.
 
 This may result in some default build configs needing to be added to
 the kdesrc-build repo to make life easier. There may also need to be a
 couple of simple scripts to set-up kdesrc-build to start with, and to
 actually run things seeing as kdesrc-build doesn't. The less the new
 dev has to worry about the better.
 
 Thoughts? Is anyone else working on something similar?

Yes. I'm giving the Plasma Mobile docs some love, but have discovered that 
also most of the other Plasma documentation for new developers is pretty 
disjoint and lacking. It certainly doesn't guide someone new well to becoming 
a productive contributor. 

I much welcome your initiative and want to pitch in.

One of the pages I've written last week may serve as an example of what I 
have in mind for this kind of pages, it's directed at designers how want to 
contribute. It gives an overview of principles we use, tools, workflows and 
communication channels.

https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Mobile/Design

The following doc takes the point of view of a new developer or designer who 
would like to contribute, it has high-level starting points:

https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Mobile/Contributing

I think this documentation should probably not be specific to Plasma Mobile 
but generally should refer to Plasma or even more generic resources -- 
without losing level-of-detail. I think giving users a too generic guide can 
be off-putting for some.

Thanks for getting this ball rolling.
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Re: [kde-community] Trademark clause in the Manifesto

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 20:36:45 Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
 On Tue, 28 Jul 2015, Thiago Macieira wrote:
  On Tuesday 28 July 2015 09:37:40 Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
  I don't think it says that, but I also don't think that it can work like 
  this. If I disappear or disband the Krita Foundation (which owns the 
  trademark), then how would this transfer be implemented? It's probably 
  something that will be specific for each situation, but as it is, I'm 
  totally unsure how this is supposed to work in practice.
  
  Another aspect is to consider the difference between a registered
  trademark and  a non-registered one. Registered trademarks ® are
  regulated Intellectual Property, for which one pays a fee and has rights
  and duties. It can only be ceded through a proper contract. I'm not sure
  a verbal contract or the manifesto would serve, here.
 
 Right, that's an important distinction. I'm only concerned with the 
 registered trademark here -- the piece of grey recycled paper I paid 2000 
 euros for

I'd be concerned with either, because also migration of projects with non-
registered (or rather, not yet registered) trademarks have been an issue in 
the past.
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Re: [kde-community] 2012, 2013 GSoC students

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Saturday, November 08, 2014 22:18:59 Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
 Oh good grief, Bshah suggested I put this in Notes. Why I didn't think
 of thatSheesh!
 
 https://notes.kde.org/p/KDEmentorship
 
 No need to send me anything. -v

What a nice trip down memory lane!

I've gone over the list and marked those that I know are still active.

Cheers,
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Re: [kde-community] Fwd: Top 15 Mailinglists with messages in moderation

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, September 02, 2014 21:45:15 Ben Cooksley wrote:
  18 kde-ev-marketing

This was mostly spam. I don't bother deleting every spam message separately, 
as that's a waste of time. For a list with relatively low traffic (such as 
this), it's not an uncommon number. I've modded everything now, anyway.
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Re: [kde-community] Closing the kde-core-devel mailing list

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, August 05, 2014 21:28:14 Kevin Krammer wrote:
 On Tuesday, 2014-08-05, 20:29:05, Albert Astals Cid wrote:
  El Dilluns, 4 d'agost de 2014, a les 20:36:44, Vishesh Handa va escriure:
  
   Random Idea: How about we close the k-c-d mailing list? It's main
   purpose
   used to be to discuss kdelibs changes, but now since we have
   kde-frameworks, the mailing list seems less useful. We already have
   kde-devel for other generic kde stuff.
 
  kde-core-devel main purpose may had been discuss kdelibs changes, but it
  has trascended that purspose a while ago.
 
 I agree with Albert.
 
 k-c-d is the list to for things that happen in development, like kde-review 
 requests, inter-module coordination, etc.
 It is more like a kde-community-technical list.
 
 kde-devel is more a list for question regarding developing with the KDE 
 platform.
 If there is really a need to fold one list with kde-frameworks its this one.

Assuming you mean folding frameworks-devel, I'd agree. (We could merge 
these lists, of course.)
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Re: [kde-community] Fundraising

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 22:20:26 Albert Astals Cid wrote:
 El Dijous, 10 de juliol de 2014, a les 18:08:42, John Layt va escriure:
  The simplest would be to add a Donate to KDE... item in the Help
  menu which would pop-up the donate dialog, which would display the
  latest campaigns.  This is quick and easy and highly unlikely to annoy
  users or distros or app authors, but would still be easy for them to
  turn off if it did.  However, it doesn't put the new campaigns under
  the users immediate attention.
 
 We were very close to do this at some stages in the past, never seemed to 
 reach any agreement, i was close to approve by myself, but then i don't 
 remember what happened and it got lost.
 
 This should be pretty easy to add to KF5 and a good way to go forward.

Short version: kdelibs was frozen.
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Re: [kde-community] praises and suggestions for the KDE team

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 11:15:55 Jeff Mitchell wrote:
 On 17 Feb 2014, at 7:46, Sebastian Kügler wrote:
  On Friday, February 14, 2014 13:00:57 Jeff Mitchell wrote:
  I thought this was a really nice letter that was sent to us, so I'm
  passing it on to the community. I did already get in touch with him
  about the 4.0 release, but I'm happy to forward along responses on 
  any
  other topic.
  
  Just a quick note: please, when you get in touch with somebody who has
  contacted us through info-*@kde.org, keep kde-pr in CC, so other press
  contacts know that it has been picked up and handled. In this case, I 
  was
  still assuming this one needs a reply. (Really, just a sidenote, 
  thanks for
  handling it.)
 
 Actually, I did. Checking back on the message, it went to kde-pr; what I 
 failed to do was actually send it back to the sender, since To 
 automatically got set to kde-pr. Oops. I'll correct that now.

The second one arrived, dunno why the first one didn't.

Thanks, though!
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Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hey,

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 10:43:42 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
  Why would i want a calculator
  as a plasmoid instead of an application? So that i need to minimize all my
  other apps to see the desktop to see it instead of just alt-tabbing?
 
 What’s worse than insulting another person is doing so from ignorance.

I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing Albert 
of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it out of 
ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct. There are very good reasons 
to respect the CoC much better, especially when it comes to discussions around 
Plasma, we *need* to do better here. This discussion will not lead anywhere if 
we start out with negative assumption about anyone's intentions.

As to the topic, I think both have their use-cases, and their not mutually 
exclusive either. It seems to me like it's easy enough to find a distribution 
model that satisfies both, the tools as separate windows faction, and the 
tools as part of the workspace faction.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

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Re: [kde-community] Applications hopping in and out of the coordinated release - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:23:23 Martin Graesslin wrote:
 On Wednesday 15 January 2014 23:06:26 Albert Astals Cid wrote:
  El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure:
  
   We can still have a regular KDE Applications
   Release, but it is then up to individual communities or applications
   to opt in to that release cycle, or to decide to release on their own
   cycle.  Strong communities with a distinct identity in the wider FOSS
   world, like PIM or Games or Calligra, may find it better to have their
   own separate release cycles and promo efforts, but I suspect most will
   stay with the regular release cycle.
 
  Hopping in an out of a release cycle is a pain in the ass for those making
  the release, at the moment we release around 160 git repos. If someone
  needs to herd 160 (actually more since you want to split more stuff)
  maintainers to find out what needs and what not every 4 weeks, you can
  find
  a lot of money for that guy since it's going to be the worst job ever.
 
 sounds like we need better tooling to make the release happen then. I
 assume  we could put effort into making such a process work. After all we
 are a bunch of highly skilled hackers ;-)
 
 My dream would be to just have to click a button on build.kde.org and it 
 starts to create the tarball, test compile and run unit tests. If all
 succeeds  put on ftp.kde.org. Reducing the amount of work so that the
 maintainer of the apps could do it themselves.

I think that solves maybe our side of the problem, but it will cause pain 
downstream. Whenever our set of packages or the structure of them change, 
there's all the distros that ship our software are going to have to change 
their packaging as well. Our own release management is just the tip of the 
iceberg.

This problem, it seems to me, can only be solved by a stable set of modules 
and structure.
-- 
sebas

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Re: [kde-community] Plasmoids and Apps - was - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:47:13 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
 On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:35:29 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
  I think this is really not the way we should discuss things. Accusing
  Albert of insulting anybody is not necessary, accusing him of doing it
  out of ignorance is clearly against our code of conduct.
 
 Fine; so when someone says “I need to minimize all my other apps to see the 
 desktop to see it” and that is blatantly false, how would you like me to
 respond? 

I think your further explanation was just fine, but the bit about insults and 
ignorance was unnecessary to explain that point.

To me don't force plasmoids down my throat doesn't read insulting towards 
Plasma creators, John offered the idea (and I didn't get the impression that 
John felt particularly insulted by it -- correct me if I'm wrong though). It 
was a reply to John's crazy ideas. (Where crazy clearly means good.)

The bottom line is that it would have been easy to *not* take this personal.

 That particular statement has been used for years and I’ve
 patiently corrected it time and again, and it is still used to justify
 things like “don’t force this down our throat”. That is not fair play.

Just to point out the obvious, while it might be human to lose patience, it's 
not OK, and certainly not helpful.

 It seems that CoC applies to me, while it’s cool for Albert to say things
 like  “don’t force plasmoids down my throat”. Yay for double standards and
 not having any sort of expectation of fair play.

That's not my impression at all. The CoC applies to everyone, and even if 
someone doesn't keep to it, that's not a justification for someone else to 
ignore it.
-- 
sebas

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Re: [kde-community] Non Api-stable libraries/frameworks - Re: Applications in KDE Generation 5

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 12:00:36 Kevin Krammer wrote:
 On Thursday, 2014-01-16, 01:33:34, Albert Astals Cid wrote:
  El Dimecres, 15 de gener de 2014, a les 21:47:17, John Layt va escriure:

   * Application domain-specific libraries such as libkipi or libkcddb
   may now be better organised under Frameworks rather than their
   modules, where they could gain a wider user base and a clearer
   maintenance viability.  Can we have a Frameworks category for non-api
   stable libraries?
 
  I am not sure I would call it Frameworks, but yes, that makes total
  sense, for example at the moment our mobipocket library just uses QtCore
  and QtGui but since it's using all the KDE cmake stuff it's not that easy
  to re-use from the outside.
 
 I also think it is important to not call those Frameworks, because it 
 dilutes the assumption we want developers to make about Frameworks, e.g. 
 stable, maintained, scheduled releases, etc.

This is a very important point. We've had some discussions during the Plasma 
sprint (which I'm currently attending), and make it a Framework was offered 
as a solution to scope some libraries. While I think that should in principle 
be possible, separate libraries do not automatically become frameworks.

The fact that they're split and less interdependent makes it easier to have a 
bigger set of libraries, but it's really important that we only ship libraries 
that satisfy a certain set of qualities, such as API and ABI stability, 
complete documentation, unit-testing, etc. Otherwise, our newly created 
Frameworks brand will quickly lose its meaning and value, and worse, devalue 
other, high-quality libraries' reputations. Strong requirements are a good 
thing here.
-- 
sebas

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Re: [kde-community] Applications in KDE Generation 5

[Sebastian Kügler]

On Thursday, January 16, 2014 11:42:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
 * Is this an application that is commonly provided by bare-bones desktop
 envs?  (Yes: +1; both because it means it duplicates features in other envs
 but also because it is probably *expected* to be there by users)
 * Is this an application that requires a large number of assumptions about
 the  desktop env? (Yes : +1)
 * Can you use the desktop env without it? (Maybe: +0.5, Not really: +1)
 * Is this an application that has significant usage in other desktop envs 
 today? (No: +1)
 
 So for kmix the answers might be: yes, no, no, maybe: 3.5 points
 KDE NetworkManager: yes, yes, no, yes: 4 points
 Dolphin: Yes, No, Maybe, Yes: 1.5 points
 For KSnapshot: no, no, yes, yes: 0 points
 
 It becomes more easy to pick which apps “belong” and which probably don’t 
 using these questions. It’s still a matter of judgement calls, but
 personally  I find those 4 questions helpful.

Adding another one: What do the developers of said code want?

Taking Krita as an example here, the soul-searching done a few years ago (I 
think even with external help to facilitate this process) has done wonders, 
and provided the focus to concentrate on one thing, and do that really well. 
An app that works just fine on any desktop might choose to value extremely 
good integration with Plasma higher than useful in XFCE, and use that as 
guiding principle, this would naturally answer a bunch of questions as to its 
direction. So thinking about the goals definitely makes sense to me, and helps 
assessing a good place to put the code, socially and 
technically/infrastructurally.
-- 
sebas

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