Have you ever watched that brilliant sit-com Cheers?
Have a look at the sign that hangs over the door and see if you can work out
when this particular business was formed.
Regards,
Tom
-Original Message-
From: JV Leavitt [mailto:jleavi...@att.net]
Sent: 07 January 2014 03:27
To:
Like a person who died on Nov. 4, 1975 and his tombstone reads aged 51 Years,
9 Months 18 days.
And even the date on a tombstone can be wrong, as I'm sure most will be aware.
The date of death on my father's stone is wrong (it's a long story, but it was
put there by an aunt without permission
I've used Est as an abbreviation for that,
but since I've learned from this list that some of you think that Est
means Established
That's a good point. I wonder if perhaps Ver(ified) for Est(ablished) could
avoid the ambiguity.
Alex
From: jleavi...@att.net
To:
On 2014/01/07 07:42, Jay 1FamilyTree wrote:
Like a person who died on Nov. 4, 1975 and his tombstone reads aged 51 Years,
9
Months 18 days.
Since there is no birth record to substantiate an exact date, the date should
be
listed as Cal. Jan 22, 1824.
A common expression found on
On Jan 6, 2014 11:17 PM, grayscot2 graysc...@gmail.com wrote:
That all sounds very responsible, but though our forebears probably were
better at calculating ages for days, months and years, without computers,
how accurate and conscientious were they? No doubt that is allowed for in
the term,
On 06/01/2014 06:52, Valerie B Garton wrote:
I have now confused myself:
Age 21 in 1911 census born abt/est 1890
Died age 47 in 1865 born abt/est 1818
Child born 1867 with no marriage for parents - marriage est/abt 1866 -
source: marriage date assuming this is the first born child Parents
Gedcom Standards generally use only these terms;
DATE_APPROXIMATED: = {Size=4:35}
[
ABT DATE |
CAL DATE |
EST DATE
]
Where :
ABT =About, meaning the date is not exact.
CAL =Calculated mathematically, for example, from an event date and age.
EST =Estimated based on an algorithm using some other
grin Calculated sounds like you are using pseudoscientific methods to
arrive at your best guess. Without documenting how that guestimate was arrived
at, it's misleading to use. Misleading, because it would appear to be somehow
better than est or abt, when the reality may be that the information
Why would (age given in document) subtracted from (date of
document) not also give a calculated date?
Perhaps I'm more sick than I think, but it does seem as if
people are making mountains out of goose-bumps over this.
Cheryl
Kurt Kneeland wrote:
An example of a Calculated Date is a Birth
David Abernathy wrote:
One could also use the term SWAG.
Scientific, Wild, Ars, Guess
I prefer the simple WEG (Wild Eyed Guess).
Heck, I like that so much, I have it as a source, too.
;)
Legacy User Group guidelines:
http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp
Archived messages after Nov.
Calculated date is normally only used when a full month, day and year will
be the result of the calculation.
you asked
Why would (age given in document) subtracted from (date of document) not
also give a calculated date?
If the age is only the year, then you cannot calculate the date
Jan 1,
Don,
I presumed that we would all know that the source might not be accurate,
but the fact that a calculation is used to arrive at a date does make a
difference, and using the Cal term provides information that other terms
do not.
In the following, when I say calculated date, it usually comes
You can have cases where a current date and just number of years can be used to
calculate an exact date. An example would be a 50th Wedding Anniversary
announcement in a newspaper saying that the couple celebrated their anniversary
on specific date, but does not give the date of the wedding.
Given the number of different algorithms available for use
in doing darn near any genealogical calculation (anyone
wanna revisit the notorious Calendar discussions?) seems to
me that making a distinction between CAL EST and ABT is of
the order of arguing whether the dinosaur was three million
On 2014/01/07 21:07, singhals wrote:
Perhaps I'm more sick than I think, but it does seem as if
people are making mountains out of goose-bumps over this.
No. I agree. Whatever makes sense to you - consistently - is the way to go.
--
Regards,
Mike Fry
Johannesburg (g)
Legacy User Group
Uh, I must be thick, too. If I have someone who died Jan 1, 1900 at age 80,
wouldn’t it be more precise to use CAL 1820 than EST 1820? I would only use EST
if I assumed a date such as a marriage date estimated from the birth date of
their first child. ABT would fit, but infers that it is an
Thanks Joseph,
I would agree that using Calculated SHOULD inspire greater credibility, but
only if how the date was calculated is included as a note. Without it, the
accuracy cannot be validated. For example, my wife often makes errors when
calculating anything. An unnotated calculated date
Without wishing to flog a dead horse, I humbly suggest that this whole brouhaha
stems from a failure to distinguish between HOW a particular date for an event
determined and the LEVEL OF PRECISION of the event date. For me:
CAL(culated) and EST(imated) and the like would seem to indicate HOW
As an alternative to notes I have a Master Source called Inference
based on Other Data (call it anything you want) and within that source
I give the methods and data by which I arrive at an entry (dates
places usually). So for an estimated birth year I might quote any record
which mentions an age
I agree with most of Kathy's examples.
I never use est unless it is established.
(And for some reason in the back of my head a long time ago I remember some
software when importing gedcom did not properly import est dates)
I ALWAYS use abt for any incomplete dates
abt 1900 will elicit a
Agreed but it can be difficult when you don't know the maiden name. I
started by leaving it blank and then ended up with a collection of
forenames at the front of my index. So I now go with the married surname
and a title suffix of spouse. These have the advantage of showing in the
index in a more
If a census shows age 21 in 1911 I would use 'c 1890'. (Circa/Cir/c) I use Cal
(Calculated) for my best guess. In my file I know that a 'Cal' date was *my*
guess and did not come from any other source.
Bob
-Original Message-
From: Valerie B Garton [mailto:vbgar...@gmail.com]
Sent:
Bob,
You do the rest of us a disservice by using Cal for a date that is not a
calculated date. Any data that comes from you will assumed to be a
calculated date.
However you use the program within your PC. and is best for
you ..is great.
But if you are going to stray from
Parentheses and brackets are different. You used parentheses; is that what you
meant to say?
CE
From: rgaus...@telus.net
To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com
Subject: RE: [LegacyUG] When to use est and when to use abt
Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2014 13:48:31 -0800
Another common method is to use the
What American English calls parentheses, British English calls
(round) brackets.
--Charlene
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:54 PM, CE WOOD wood...@msn.com wrote:
Parentheses and brackets are different. You used parentheses; is that what
you meant to say?
CE
From: rgaus...@telus.net
To:
Thanks Charlene :)
-Original Message-
From: Charlene C [mailto:charlene...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 January, 2014 3:02 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] When to use est and when to use abt
What American English calls parentheses, British English calls
First post here. This has been an interesting thread. I have a woman whose
maiden name I do not know. For the given name I entered Maria (maiden name
unknown), and the surname entered was Barbie. Now I'm wondering if I do an
internet search through Legacy, will the (maiden name unknown) be the
Hi Jay,
Help me out here, what is the norm for ‘calculated date’, and when/how do the
rest of you use the term? I’ve not seen it used for another particular
purpose, so I am interested in knowing how you understand it and what others
are expecting to see by that. Would you use ‘Est’ as a
As one of the rest of you, allow me to pipe in here. I suppose an
honest, though humorous entry would be guess instead of Estimated, but
Estimated means the same to me anyway. Moreover, I have come to regard
the term about, or abt to mean 'guess,' since, most of the time, you
find it to have been
An example of a Calculated Date is a Birth Date determined from a Date of Death
and an Age at Death given in years, months and days.
From: Bob Austen [mailto:rgaus...@telus.net]
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 8:47 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com
Subject: RE: [LegacyUG] When to use est
I regard Circa or About as an approximate date based on supplied data of some
significance - say a census, birth/death/marriage certificate - where the date
can be closely determined. Example, if a marriage took place in 1921 and the
bride's age was shown as 21 years one could assume her birth
I agree with Kurt for calculated. I usually only use that when I have used
the date calculator.
I stick close to the dictionary definitions below.
About - near in time, approximately.
Example: In a 1900 census a child is listed as 7 so I use about 1893 for
birth year.
Estimate - to form an
Thanks Kurt, I didn’t see this before my last email. I can see, from your
example, where one could ‘calculate’ the birth date (month, day, year) given
that data. However, If the Age at Death only gave ‘years’ then the birth could
only be given as the year (about) and thus, not calculated.
A Calculated date would most usually be a date of birth that is calculated
from the date of death as some times stated on older death records.
Like a person who died on Nov. 4, 1975 and his tombstone reads aged 51
Years, 9 Months 18 days.
Since there is no birth record to substantiate an exact
Many thanks, I see the significance.
From: Jay 1FamilyTree [mailto:1familytree@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 January, 2014 9:43 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] When to use est and when to use abt
A Calculated date would most usually be a date of birth that
Bob,
In the example you provided I would think that either Abt. or Cir. (Circa)
would both work fine.
They both imply that the actual date should be around that time.
Remember, your basing her age of 21 as someone else estimation
or did the other person have specific data to know her true age.
One could also use the term SWAG.
Scientific, Wild, Ars, Guess
Sent from my Kindle Fire
In God We Trust
Legacy User Group guidelines:
http://www.LegacyFamilyTree.com/Etiquette.asp
Archived messages after Nov. 21 2009:
http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/
Archived
Bob,
In your Legacy program go to ViewCalendar
And you will see at the bottom you can input dates and calculate the
appropriate result.
Jay
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:07 PM, Bob Austen rgaus...@telus.net wrote:
Thanks Kurt, I didn’t see this before my last email. I can see, from your
Oh dear. I started this thread and am now more confused than ever ?
Cheers from Valerie in sunny Sydney
From: Jay 1FamilyTree [mailto:1familytree@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 7 January 2014 4:53 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@LegacyUsers.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] When to use est and when to use
Valerie,
In the Legacy HELP guide under Dates Approximate
the page of text explains fairly well what dates and prefixes you can use.
If you stick to that, you will be in good shape.
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:00 PM, Valerie B Garton vbgar...@gmail.comwrote:
Oh dear. I started this thread and
That all sounds very responsible, but though our forebears probably
were better at calculating ages for days, months and years, without
computers, how accurate and conscientious were they? No doubt that is allowed
for in the term, calculated, but it's still our guestimate that they
I created a master source called Guesstimate and use it as the name
implies...
On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:15 PM, grayscot2 graysc...@gmail.com wrote:
That all sounds very responsible, but though our forebears
probably were better at calculating ages for days, months and years,
Where I have specific dates with specific ages I use about
aged X in Y - born About Z
Where I have an event occuring at a date and that event can only happen
after a certain age - marriage, voting, etc - then I use Before
on an electoral roll in 1921 - born before 1900 (notes: based on min legal
My thought would be:
abt = you have some pretty solid evidence, but not exact (or if the
evidence said about)
est = YOU made an educated guess, or you KNOW someone else made an
educated guess. For example if you had the birth date of 1st and 3rd
child, and you had no date on 2nd child but you
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