Jan-Peter Voigt wrote Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:58 PM
So my question would be, is there a guide to the sources? Are
there key principals in the architecture?
If there is a chance to get into this next to my job, I would
really like to give Lily somthing!
Thanks for the offer! You
Op woensdag 11-11-2009 om 17:47 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Kieren
MacMillan:
I've got to learn yet another markup language
There is nothing to learn. Have you seen a file? Adding plain
text is more intuitive than using Apple's finder. Really.
and install a bunch of apps (still in
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 08:41 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef David
Kastrup:
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
_Addressing_ the actual problems is definitely more suitably done on the
developer list.
So what are the actual problems? Is LilyPond really too difficult?
Do we rely too
Continued on developer list.
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
As a new contributor/developer, by using a different, and a particular
unfriendly platform for free software development, you are faced with
tackling several difficult problems at once.
This is only meant as an
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 08:41 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef David
Kastrup:
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
_Addressing_ the actual problems is definitely more suitably done on the
developer list.
So what are the actual problems?
Hi Jan,
There is nothing to learn. Have you seen a file? Adding plain
text is more intuitive than using Apple's finder. Really.
Well, since I don't even have a build system that works yet, this is
all totally moot at the moment...
Chances are problems are fixed before you encounter
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 05:49 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Kieren
MacMillan:
Hi Kieren,
There is nothing to learn. Have you seen a file? Adding plain
text is more intuitive than using Apple's finder. Really.
Well, since I don't even have a build system that works yet, this is
On 11/11/09 4:23 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote:
spannerText =
#(define-music-function (parser location span-text)
(string?)
#{
\override TextSpanner #'(bound-details
left text) = #$span-text
#)
which would allow above example to be coded much more
easily
Hi Jan,
I'm just pointing out that choosing something different will
--currently still -- cost you.
Absolutely... and, as we've witnessed, this is almost certainly
materially affecting the number of developers that can/will work on
Lilypond.
Like it or not, 95% of the computer world is
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 08:36 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef Kieren
MacMillan:
Hi Kieren,
Absolutely... and, as we've witnessed, this is almost certainly
materially affecting the number of developers that can/will work on
Lilypond.
Of course.
Like it or not, 95% of the computer world
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Hi Jan,
I'm just pointing out that choosing something different will
--currently still -- cost you.
Absolutely... and, as we've witnessed, this is almost certainly
materially affecting the number of developers that can/will work on
Hi Jan,
Well, that's the question, isn't it? It depends on the percentage
of users on each platform that are able and willing to contribute.
Absolutely.
It would surprise me if you could find many developers that want
to volunteer their time working on free software, yet continue
to do so
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 02:50:08PM +0100, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
Put another way, the difficulty of setting up a
development system on anything but Linux is a significant obstacle to
Lilypond's potential.
It would surprise me if you could find many developers that want
to volunteer
Hi David,
It's not as bad as the numbers suggest. The ratio of serious
developers
who will balk at getting their development environment up and running
will not be all that large.
That may be true, but irrelevant to my point: the vast majority of
the potential/actual serious [new]
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Possibly, but again irrelevant (or at least orthogonal) to the
discussion: I think that 100% of the new developer base will have
started as part of the user base, since it seems unlikely to the point
of impossibility that a random
Hi David,
The best programmers are often programmers that are into
programming for
the sake of programming. Ask such a person for help with typesetting
music, and Lilypond will be one of the points of attraction for
him, and
obstacles are disproving his geek state (or the state of what he
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Hi David,
The best programmers are often programmers that are into programming
for the sake of programming. Ask such a person for help with
typesetting music, and Lilypond will be one of the points of
attraction for him, and obstacles
Hello Kieren, hello David, hello out there,
I followed this conversation a little bit. Well I have been a quite
good C++ coder, but that was about 10 years ago. Right now I am one of
those million java developers.
For my Job I had to turn to Java, wich I didn't really love. With
Java5 it
Hello there!...
El 12/11/2009, a las 04:11 a.m., David Kastrup escribió:
Continued on developer list.
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
As a new contributor/developer, by using a different, and a
particular
unfriendly platform for free software development, you are faced
Jesús Guillermo Andrade gandr...@usermail.com writes:
El 12/11/2009, a las 04:11 a.m., David Kastrup escribió:
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
As a new contributor/developer, by using a different, and a particular
unfriendly platform for free software
Sorry, I initially just sent this to Jan and meant to send it to the
group.
On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 08:41 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef David
Kastrup:
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
_Addressing_ the actual problems is
Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net writes:
On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
Op donderdag 12-11-2009 om 08:41 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef David
Kastrup:
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
_Addressing_ the actual problems is definitely more suitably done
on
Dear David: Thank you very much for your reply. If I was not that
clear, please accept my apologies. I was not trying to seem
pretentious or arrogant (far from it since I went into the thread as a
newbie). My first language was COBOL, then Pascal, Perl and C. I
barely have some notions of
Jesús Guillermo Andrade gandr...@usermail.com writes:
El 12/11/2009, a las 02:17 p.m., David Kastrup escribió:
And that's the main point: does the job. The one thing Emacs Lisp has
going over Common Lisp that it is a reasonably limited language to
learn
in comparison. Which is a nuisance
On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 00:44 -0500, lilypond-user-requ...@gnu.org wrote:
Also, the complaint here isn't that there's some inherent defect in
the program or the documentation, rather that you didn't want to
take
the time to learn how to use lilypond when you could do it in
sibelius
Hi Craig (et al.),
I must say that the faster thing is a typical United States
behavior.
Whether or not it started in the USA, it's a worldwide phenomenon
now. =)
[Disclosure: I'm Canadian.]
Our markets and media constantly barrage us with time issues.
I think maybe convenience is a
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Erik Appeldoorn ursus.k...@ziggo.nl wrote:
[...]
On the plus I found, good looking scores, very flexible
On the minus I found, very tedious, time-consuming and heavily relying on
work-arounds.
Hope this will give some inside. I won't say I'll never try again,
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Hi Craig (et al.),
I must say that the faster thing is a typical United States
behavior.
Whether or not it started in the USA, it's a worldwide phenomenon now.
=)
[Disclosure: I'm Canadian.]
It is too cheap to put this down to
Hi David,
It is too cheap to put this down to faster. The problem is not that
you need longer to do some things with Lilypond initially. The
problem
is that there is a large number of things for which there is no proper
way to do them at all, and you have to take out the crowbar.
As is
I don't see the now definitely O/T you put in the subject line. The
subject was that somebody quit, and we are talking about the reasons.
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
It is too cheap to put this down to faster. The problem is not
that you need longer to do some
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
[...]
I don't see the now definitely O/T you put in the subject line. The
subject was that somebody quit, and we are talking about the reasons.
[...]
It is too cheap to put this down to faster. The problem is not
that you need longer
I'm not topposting
Third attempt because of topposting automoderation -- this _is_ a
nuisance.
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
[...]
I don't see the now definitely O/T you put in the subject line. The
subject was that somebody quit, and we are talking about the
Hi David,
I think that sums up very well why somebody would prefer not working
with Lilypond. Not only do you have to rely on expert advice, but the
main advice is please do what an expert would do, or shut up.
Please show me where I said anything resembling shut up...?
I'm sorry if you
Sorry for the post in triplicate. Gmane's response time confused me.
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Hi David,
I think that sums up very well why somebody would prefer not working
with Lilypond. Not only do you have to rely on expert advice, but the
main advice is
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 06:11:26PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
I couldn't agree more! [See Steps 12, above.]
I think that sums up very well why somebody would prefer not working
with Lilypond. Not only do you have to rely on expert
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 07:12:44PM +, Graham Percival wrote:
Other than kidnap + torture, of course. I might vote for this,
but it strikes me that it might cause long-term problems...
Addendum: I don't know the details that you want, so torturing me
won't help.
I'd *like* to know those
Hi David,
[By the way, since it's apparently open season on posting style
criticism: your consistent lack of salutation and valediction in your
posts makes you seem rude, curt, and above all patronizing.]
Reasonable entails a collective effort not to repeat avoidable
work and
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 06:11:26PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
But if there is roadmap, design and vision, I have not yet been able
to find it in the obvious places I have been looking for.
The information for developers is the CG.
The
Hi David (and anyone else who makes it here, wondering how to find
the CG),
The manuals don't tell anything about CG, where it is, what it does.
URL:http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/ does not tell.
There is no directory of that name in the distribution.
Step 1: Go to home page.
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 08:47:33PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
The information for developers is the CG.
The manuals don't tell anything about CG, where it is, what it does.
URL:http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/ does not tell.
Op woensdag 11-11-2009 om 20:08 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef David
Kastrup:
As we both (all) know, there IS a reasonable way to become an expert
at Lilypond
No. A _reasonable_ way to become an expert is by reading into
increasingly more expert-level documentation and working with it.
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 03:01:33PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
Step 3: Click on Documentation for LilyPond 2.13 (latest development)
[since you're going to be helping with development, this is the logical
choice].
Location: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/
Not the general
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Kieren MacMillan
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca wrote:
Hi David (and anyone else who makes it here, wondering how to find the
CG),
The manuals don't tell anything about CG, where it is, what it does.
URL:http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/ does not
Hi Graham,
the more available/obvious choice would be
to make the new website the main one.
Currently, that's waiting on:
- 2-5 hours of texinfo file editing
I just pulled a new origin/master from git.
Today, I've got upwards of 3 hours to code: what do you want me to
work on?
Cheers,
Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes:
Hi David,
[By the way, since it's apparently open season on posting style
criticism: your consistent lack of salutation and valediction in your
posts makes you seem rude, curt, and above all patronizing.]
Perfectly accurate.
On 11/11/09 12:12 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote:
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 06:11:26PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
But if there is roadmap, design and vision, I have not yet been able to
find it in the obvious places I have been looking for.
The information for
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
Also seen several times are people sending /lots/ of questions,
be it users or developers, and after everything has been
answered, the user quits or potential developers says she has no
time or does not thing she is up for it after all.
If the
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 03:19:37PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
Hi Graham,
- 2-5 hours of texinfo file editing
I just pulled a new origin/master from git.
Today, I've got upwards of 3 hours to code: what do you want me to work
on?
The first thing that comes to mind is Alternate input.
Hi David,
Where does the GDP document the meaning of the acronym GDP?
Here's one place (of many):
http://lilypond.org/web/devel/participating/documentation-adding
It does not say what kind of code to put where for what reason.
Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes:
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Kieren MacMillan
kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca wrote:
Hi David (and anyone else who makes it here, wondering how to find the
CG),
The manuals don't tell anything about CG, where it is, what it
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 03:53:11PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
It does not tell you what language/classes/operations to use to
implement what kind of task.
OK, then submit a feature request — rant on -user does not count — and
maybe someone in the know will help out.
No, please don't.
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 09:49:28PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes:
Also seen several times are people sending /lots/ of questions,
be it users or developers, and after everything has been
answered, the user quits or potential developers says
Graham,
The first thing that comes to mind is Alternate input.
Documentation/general/introduction.texi
@node Alternate input
I have to mao-ing learn TEXI now?
So much for your 2-5 hours estimate...
Still-doing-it-but-thinking-there's-almost-definitely-a-better-way,
Kieren.
David,
Thanks for your willingness to articulate some concerns. I think that your
careful thinking can be of real help to the LilyPond community, expecially
if you can help us make things better.
On 11/11/09 7:21 AM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:
Kieren MacMillan
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 04:05:59PM -0500, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
The first thing that comes to mind is Alternate input.
Documentation/general/introduction.texi
@node Alternate input
I have to mao-ing learn TEXI now?
So much for your 2-5 hours estimate...
I stand by my 2-5 hours of editing
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
David,
Thanks for your willingness to articulate some concerns. I think that
your careful thinking can be of real help to the LilyPond community,
expecially if you can help us make things better.
Thanks for putting up with me.
On 11/11/09 7:21 AM,
@node Alternate input
I have to mao-ing learn TEXI now?
What's the problem here? If you don't want to do nifty things it's
just a quite simple markup language. And since there has already been
written a lot of TEXI documentation for lilypond I'm quite sure that
you find examples for almost
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:33 PM, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org wrote:
\spannerText rit.
b1\startTextSpan
e,\stopTextSpan
What is wrong with
b1\startSpan rit.
e,\stopSpan
? Why force meddling with an internal variable in the first place? You
need the text anyway, why not make it part of
Werner,
What's the problem here?
The problem is that I come to Lilypond with a skill set —
specifically, many years of Java+Javascript+(X)HTML+XSL(T)+CSS+(La)
TeX experience — which should be more than adequate for any modern
documentation project involving a WWW component.
I want to
On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 22:33 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
The code to establish a ritardando could be easily written, and may (or may
not) be done as part of the forthcoming GLISS (Grand LilyPond Input Syntax
Stabilization) project. There's currently
On Nov 11, 2009, at 11:29 AM, David Kastrup wrote:
For me, this situation is awkward, impeding and dissatisfactory. For
others, it is reason to go away. I don't see that anything is gained
for chastising me for my impression. That is merely shooting the
messenger. Actually, more than the
David,
I appreciate your persistence in this. I think that you are having part of
the difficulty in this conversation because it's on -user, not on -devel.
The modifications to anything except input files (which use lilypond code
and embedded scheme) really involve knowledge that's primarily
Carl Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes:
David,
I appreciate your persistence in this. I think that you are having part of
the difficulty in this conversation because it's on -user, not on -devel.
The modifications to anything except input files (which use lilypond code
and embedded
On 10.11.2009, at 20:36, Erik Appeldoorn wrote:
I’ve been around for a short while only. A month with lilypond and
3 weeks on the list. Made a couple of scores, quite complex ones.
But for each and every one I had to fiddle for hours and hours
trying to grab all the details. All the while
Sibelius is a really great software. It is not free, can't be run from a
wiki, but great, it even handles collisions pretty well.
Still I think it is worth spending time with LilyPond, it took me far
more than 1 month on the list, so congratulations, that you could create
complex scores after
Seems like a month is too short a time before giving up. I really have no
other experience with other software like Finale or Sibelius, so I can't say
anythign about them, but I have been very pleased with what I can do with LP.
But it did take about 6 months before I was really getting it
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Erik Appeldoorn ursus.k...@ziggo.nl wrote:
I’ve been around for a short while only. A month with lilypond and 3 weeks
on the list. Made a couple of scores, quite complex ones. But for each and
every one I had to fiddle for hours and hours trying to grab all the
never try again, but not
just now.
Hou je goed / Keep well,
Erik
-Original Message-
From: Patrick McCarty [mailto:pnor...@gmail.com]
Sent: woensdag 11 november 2009 0:39
To: Erik Appeldoorn
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: quit
On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Erik
On 11.11.2009, at 01:01, Erik Appeldoorn wrote:
As several users have responded asking for feedback why I stopped with
lilypond (or criticism). Here's my 2cents worth.
During the last four weeks I have been restoring a piece. It has
come to me
in several different parts. Handwriting,
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