On 31 Dec 2002, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and
misses the whole point of having a web site.
This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use
customers.
-Original Message-
From: Oleg Goldshmidt
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you missed the main point:
5
Yes, that's the spirit of my message.
Thanks.
-Original Message-
From: Shlomi Fish
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ilshell.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 9:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On 31 Dec 2002, Oleg
On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote:
Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and
standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of
bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and whistells madness.
Making your site basic and portable
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Shoshannah Forbes wrote:
On Tuesday, Dec 31, 2002, at 09:50 Asia/Jerusalem, Shlomi Fish wrote:
Another point is that users would like more minimalistic and
standards-compliant sites better than sites with a lot of
bandwidth-overloading, DHTML/JS, useless bells and
On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and
misses the whole point of having a web site.
This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE
so the
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and
misses the whole point of having a web site.
Very good, but now we should think of means to substantiate this
claim.
On Tuesday 31 December 2002 14:34, Alex Shnitman wrote:
On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:16, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners)
and misses the whole point of having a web site.
This they won't
I suggest doing an online poll of user browsing prefrences.
Ask questions such as:
1. Rate each of the following factors from 1(not important) to 5(very
important) for your browsing experience:
FACTORS: Loading speed, navigation speed, lack of popup windows, does it
work on my
From: Oron Peled
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:41:55 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers,
partners) and
misses the whole point of having a web site.
Very good, but now we should think of means to
Quoting Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
It usually goes like this. The boss wants a web site, so he hires a web
development company to create one. The developers in this company are
obviously not people with a dozen years of computing experience, but
people who have gone through a
Quoting Oron Peled, from the post of Tue, 31 Dec:
(politely and rationaly) complain to, thus conveying the message:
It's better be standard compliant then to deal with bad
publicity from tech savy people about the quality of your
web site.
and the PHB hears please a small bunch of
Here here to that!
Education can be found the source of many solutions. Maybe aproaching
such schools and offering them help with setting up Linux-based classes
will be beneficial to both parties - the schools get lower cost of ownership
(should probably be shown very good return on investment
This remoinds me - I'm reading now The Complete DHTML refference
(or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book
is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it
be to stick an IE compatibility module in Mozilla? Has anyone
though of that? I don't know Mozilla's
On 31 Dec 2002 14:34:56 +0200
Alex Shnitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's all awareness. Neither the web development company nor their client
think that there are any normal people in their right mind who are not
using IE. I think it never even gets to the point where they count
percentages --
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This remoinds me - I'm reading now The Complete DHTML refference
(or something like that) from O'Reilly (don't sniger - this book
is all about portability) and was wondering how feasable would it
be to stick an IE compatibility module in
Oron Peled wrote:
Completely true. That's why I think we should change strategy.
The emphasis should be on:
- The web team you hired doesn't follow web standards.
- Many clients (e.g: people with other IE versions)
may be affected.
- You wouldn't know it (it looks ok on your computer).
-
On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 15:44 Asia/Jerusalem, Alex Chudnovsky
wrote:
Hello
there, Leumi, what about people using Mozilla? Konqueror? Opera? Blind
people using a text broswer? And why the heck do you need all that
Javascript stuff, instead of just using standard links?
For that is what
On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:21 Asia/Jerusalem, Uri Bruck wrote:
1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over-
complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE
browsers;
What makes you think this typical Israeli?
Do you have a different experience
On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 15:56 Asia/Jerusalem, Boulgakov Andrei
wrote:
NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer
costs to Leumi 15000, development of IE-ed site takes 10 man*month
and IE-ed and NS-ed 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000 for
2% of NS
On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:43 Asia/Jerusalem, Oleg Kobets wrote:
Awarness:
Mostly companies are not aware that there is such thing as Linux and
so they
never tell the people who actually build the site that it should
support
non-IE browsers.
It is not just linux users who face this
Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft
employees...
Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is in
Redmond, WA. ;-)
--
Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Forbes
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Uri Bruck; Linux-IL
Subject: Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Thursday, Dec 26, 2002, at 19:43 Asia/Jerusalem, Oleg Kobets wrote:
Awarness:
Mostly
On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:16 Asia/Jerusalem,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe such a fight should be done under the title of web standards
rather
than open source vs. microsoft.
Yep. I agree here
I think there are already bodies which
promote
web standards adoption (forgot their
Quoting Oleg Goldshmidt, from the post of Mon, 30 Dec:
Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft
employees...
Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is in
Redmond, WA. ;-)
the point is that I
Quoting Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Just wondering- where did you get your figures from?
The numbers I have seen claim that making a site that adheres to
standards is actually cheaper then creating a site geared to one
browser.
Provided, of corse, that you don't really on some
On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:19 Asia/Jerusalem, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
Shoshannah Forbes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Funny thing is- a large number of their customers are Microsoft
employees...
Nothing strange here: the Oregon bank has 5 branches, one of which is
in
Redmond, WA. ;-)
That
Quoting Shoshannah Forbes, from the post of Mon, 30 Dec:
Maybe such a fight should be done under the title of web standards
rather than open source vs. microsoft.
Yep. I agree here
I used to know a few people from WaSP http://www.webstandards.org/ As
far as I know, they do not have anyone
On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 17:43 Asia/Jerusalem, Ira Abramov wrote:
the point is that I also have accounts with Wells Fargo and Schwab, I
fiddle with Amazon, BN and eBay, and none of them (except for very
small and surprises on Amazon) are incompatible with
Mozilla/Galeon/Konq
as are the new
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you can't imagine how
childish bosses are.
Good point. So it's the same struggle we see everywhere in the software field
about PHB's and Marketoids forcing non-professional
On Monday, Dec 30, 2002, at 21:24 Asia/Jerusalem, Oron Peled wrote:
Of course the many practical arguments raised so far will help
demonstrate
the problem. So let's try to compose a partial list:
1. Maintenance hell for upgrades
2. Should retest for many versions of proprietary products
: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
On Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:43:40 +0200
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, working as a web programmer for a long time now, you
can't imagine how
childish bosses are.
Good point. So it's
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you missed the main point:
5. Bottom line - drives away potential business (customers, partners) and
misses the whole point of having a web site.
This they won't agree with, on the basis of 98% of customers use IE
so the extra expense is not warranted.
The
Oleg Kobets [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Awarness:
Mostly companies are not aware that there is such thing as Linux and so they
never tell the people who actually build the site that it should support
non-IE browsers.
The issue is not Linux. FWIW I am weird enough to have Mozilla as my
default
BA Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking
BA at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for
BA Netscape+Mozilla. If you and all your friends will browse about
I'm already paying money as BLL client. Part of these money is website
budget. Just website users
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT.
Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their Leumi-Ba-Internet site.
I have long viewed their site via Mozilla/Linux, which their old site
supported.
Problem is, the new site did not work with Mozilla (tried several
versions)
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and
linux/mozilla client:
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT.
Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their Leumi-Ba-Internet site.
Interesting to see you think it is a *good* story
Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
So, with all the stories about sites discriminating against non-IE clients,
Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for Netscape+Mozilla.
If you
On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi
site and linux/mozilla client:
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT.
Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their Leumi-Ba-Internet
Title: FW: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
So, with all the stories about sites discriminating against non-IE clients,
Discriminators are users. Customer (Leumi in this case) looking at Browser Statistics won't pay money on customization for Netscape+Mozilla.
If you
Boulgakov Andrei wrote:
NSs and Mozilla takes 3%, IEs - 96%. If man*month of Web developer
costs to Leumi 15000$, development of IE-ed site takes 10 man*month
$15000 for a man month of a web developer looks a little exaggerated.
and IE-ed and NS-ed 15 man*month, who need to pay 5000*5=25000$
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Alex Chudnovsky wrote:
On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi
site and linux/mozilla client:
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT.
Bank Leumi just
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002 at 03:44:28PM +0200, Alex Chudnovsky wrote:
On Thursday 26 December 2002 15:15, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi
site and linux/mozilla client:
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT
Title: RE: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and linux/mozilla client
;-)
AFAIK, you're right only in #3
MM in fixed price project can cost to customer more than 15000 :)
-Original Message-
From: Eli Marmor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 3:52 PM
To: [EMAIL
OK, I don't want to get into website construction techniques (don't know
enough).
I found this a good story not because the new or old site dazzeled me by
its perfection,
but because BLL, although originally making a mistake, had the
beitzim/iot to
admit it to a private costumer (ar least
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Guy Baruch wrote about OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and
linux/mozilla client:
Hello, just a good story for a change, hope it's not too OT.
Bank Leumi just recently did a face-lift to their Leumi-Ba-Internet site
1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over-
complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers;
What makes you think this typical Israeli?
Do you have a different experience with your off-shore bank account?
This is an issue of awarness and
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site and
linux/mozilla client:
1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over-
complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers;
What makes you think this typical Israeli
On Thursday 26 December 2002 23:24, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi
site and linux/mozilla client:
1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over-
complication and utter disregard to standards
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Thu, Dec 26, 2002, Uri Bruck wrote about Re: OT: Mila Tova on Bank Leumi site
and linux/mozilla client:
1. A company that designs its website with the typical Israeli over-
complication and utter disregard to standards and non-IE browsers
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