-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of JTD
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:12 AM
To: GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] MTNL TriBand - rollover of unused MBs
Yes. Also the account now resets automatically at
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] MTNL TriBand - rollover of unused MBs
Speaking of rolling over...
My friend has the same plan and this month he has 2404 MB
of ADSL download remaining as per the MTNL web page.
Truth or fiction... welcome to the twilight zone
No such luck for me though..
- Gishu
Wonderful! What do end users look for to verify if MTNL is resetting
the link @ 0:00 and 08:00? Would appreciate if you could share it with
Is there anything persistent other than Session History at the
MTNL Web-Self Care? Hats off to the oracle who named that page :))
Gishu
--
If you change your password at the mtnl website and next time you put on
your system the net is down, don't worry. Simply go to the 192.168.1.1
interface of the ADSL and change your stored password. It is in Advanced
ATM VCC . Do not forget to go to Tools System and click 'Save and
Why is that damn password change option on the MTNL webpage
if they are gonna shut you out if you don't login with their password.
The database is on their servers so all changes are recorded there. The
user is supposed to update the change in the ADSL but they forgot to
mention this on
I don't think any wire can help me.. + if I tamper with the wires,
that will be the next reason/excuse for MTNL for the problem.
Getting a new wire will not do any harm. About MTNL's objection, well
I clocked 225 kbps today.
The trouble seems to be parallel connections in my house.
What I
Internet connection speed results:
File Size: 1000KB
Time to Download: 38.957second(s)
Your Bandwidth:236.02Kbps
(0.230Mbps)
Hey consider yourself lucky! 236Kbps isn't bad at all. People have
trouble getting even 210Kbps! :(
Triband
Triband Anonymous voice
I am Gishu Pillai. I barely get 128 kbps.
Hi! Some time back I had mentioned about getting your own wire installed
from the building junction to your comp's location. The standard white
Most guys on forums and even a MTNL support guy said that it
can be rectified
hi everyone,
I want to greet everyone out there as i have joined this group recently.
yeah i am also very happy you joined I am not able to control my
joy, Oh. I am going to cry!
Someone please get him a tissue..
Who put this senti guy on the welcome committee ?
ILaughter?UG
screws up. But that doesn't mean it isn't possible. It just means
I'm lazy
Ubuntu played music from most of the systems in my case.
Gotta give Ubuntu a whirl sometime soon. (Tried RH8, FC4,
Debian, DamnSmallLinux, Icepack, Caldera,..) guess it's a long
checklist.
It's a standing
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] [commercial] Computer Books for Sale
If nothing else, there are some pretty good deals on this LUG.
Last deal got me a C64 for free :) Thanks to Mr.Trevor
The prices seem ok.. Only question is where are you located in Bombay if at
all..
My 2 cents.. This can be set into an
I want to come, but I've never been to Bandra before... How do I come
from the railway station?
I think I have seen this one... Get to Bandra station (West). Take a rick
ask him to take you to Mount Carmel church
get down to your left and pay the fare:)
you should see a T junction with a
This is for everyone's information that yahoo.co.in now has pop/smtp
access.
Thanks for information also share your wisdom how does it relate to
Linux/Unix ?
Come on.. give Rony a break...
But if you want to play by the book, he can always say that he's using some
thing like Thunderbird on
Yup.
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
i get the following error
mount: fs type ntfs not supported by kernel
I think you are using FC4. You need to download and add another specific module
to do this. Google pls... I ran into the same thing and I just superimposed RH9
on it. Works okay...
Gishu
--
*snip*
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] 64 bit linux with max device compatibility
1.What 64bit architecture are you on? (AMD or INTEL).
AMD Sempron 2500+
2.What kind of HDD are you using (SATA or IDE)
IDE
3.What OS are you looking for a 64bit or a 32bit OS (64bit processors are
compatable with 32bit
Bulls eye. RH / Suse / IBM are laughing all the way to the bank
graciously accepting the aforementioned fat sums.
i sometimes wonder on whose side you are :-)
He's against all the profit monging capitalist swines ;)
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Ran the broadband test program which failed to complete. downloaded some
stuff speed is around 200kbps. I must move the phone line away from the
Don't you mean 20-30kbps ? if not which plan and what medication
is your machine on :)
Also since you have to switch on and off the modem, can it be
Blooper - Common CPU :))
Hi
I think the LTSP solution holds true if I have a spare monitor/mouse and
keyboard
Apparently I have only the CPU and no spare peripherals.
Get a Video switch with mouse and keyboard inputs. (So Common Monitor,Keyb and
Mouse
and the Display port of each CPU is conn to
Hi,
MTNL Triband is on and I am on the lookout for downloading a 64 bit OS.
I need something that would help me get started without hassling me
with inane device issues. (FC4 fails in trying to 'line discipline' my serial
mouse
and doesn't see my ASUS onboard lan card
and Debian went modprobe
So in short my query/plea here is pls help me find a 64-bit Linux distro
that will
know how to work with all my peripherals (keyboard + mouse) and help me see
64 bit computing at work. The smaller the download the better, I won't use
this for anything other than a File/Web server and to
*snip*
Fedora supports a huge range of hardware including 64 bit machines. I am on
AMD 64 and ASUS K8N mobo, and everything works just great, out of the box,
including the LAN card. Please specify your mobo and LAN card model. If you
My Mobo is ASUS K8SMX and the lan card is the one onboard
Don't
Pro DVD - 4.3GB spanning several nights), the bill for July was correct
i.e. downloads in 00:00-08:00 were not counted. I had no reason to
suspect that I would be in this hole in Aug. and Sep.
Looks like someone in MTNL is reading Sun Tzu's Art of War :)
'An important part of a military
Also, there are certain things in Triband
Shifting charges - Rs. 100 (what's this?)
In case you need to shift the equip to a new flat/location, I think...
Safety Charges - Rs. 100 (per month)
They will protect against evil eyes :) - this is just something that
you will have to pay for MTNL
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] [OT] MTNL DSL - NU plan billing snafu?
I got my MTNL bill a few days ago. For the NU Plan the charge is
Rs. 590 (unlimited usage 00:00-08:00) plus additional usage charge
to the tune of Rs. 6304!
I have already complained to MTNL in writing but have not heard from
them yet.
Ubuntu's kernels are not compiled with HIGHMEM and SMP support.
However compiling/installing -smp kernel from debian can fix this.
Other distros mostly carry an smp kernel.
Fedora Core 4 :)
SUCKS! (Installation keeps crashing with unhandled exceptions)
--
i need cds of Fedora Core - 4
Please Help, Where I can get it ?
Just a Tip,
you'll get it faster if you mention where you are located.
Gishu
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Hi,
FC4 installed finally but not without hiccups. I will not mention some weird
things
that I bumped into during installation.
Now I'm stuck with a detected mouse, which is non-operational. I see a pointer
at
the center of the screen but it won't move from there. I used the keyboard
during
Hi,
I'm back with some more
A big thank you to Dinesh here. My wish to own an AMD machine has come true.
(AMD Semp 2500+ with ASUS K8S-MX). Now 2 Linux distros have failed to
install ..
FC4 which came with this month's Chip DVD just keeps rebooting. I see the
second line Reading
Hi,
I'm back with some more
A big thank you to Dinesh here. My wish to own an AMD machine has come true.
(AMD Semp 2500+ with ASUS K8S-MX). Now 2 Linux distros have failed to install ..
FC4 which came with this month's Chip DVD just keeps rebooting. I see the
second line Reading initrd
and
I need a *second* CPU for under 7-8K and I needed on some input on the
I have P III, 866 MHz, 128 RAM, 810e Motherboard, CAbinet and 52X
samsund CD Rom, floppy drivein working condition. You can get it around 7k.
Nice try dude! btw if you find someone who actually agrees to that,
let me know
Trevor,
Disclaimer: Might work. This is somewhere I am also stuck at this time
with a similar problem.
What you seek is called marshalling the data.
google for pragma pack. I believe this prevents any auto alignment.
Never done this so do not ask any more :) or my stupidity shall be
revealed
I need a *second* CPU for under 7-8K and I needed on some input on
*snip*
Sempron 2200+
GA-7V400M-RZ
256MB DDR333
Will cost you about Rs.6500. Ofcourse this doesnt include an HDD. The
gigabyte board is very feature rich. Has onboard lan, sound, video and
Thanks Dinesh! btw I have a spare 120
Hi,
I need a *second* CPU for under 7-8K and I needed on some input on the
current known 5 starred tried and tested - no hassle - setups.
My personal preference is for an AMD + MSI combo. But I do not know of the
specific models.
This machine does not need to be the bling machine.. just normal
a cabinet should set me back by 1500 (exclusive of the 7-8K limit)
Xtech cabinet with smps only Rs. 1150/-, reasonably good quality.
I need a cabinet that needs to occupy minimum space vertically.
Space constraints. Thanks for replying.
*snip*
OK. All said and done. Can we PLEASE close this thread?
My head hurts, Emphasis on ^^ here.
Can we make it a point to not start this again i.e. Do not
reply to a mail that seems to be starting MS v OSS w/o
any visible discussion end-point/alternative.
Gishu
--
Remember the old adage, A hacker does for love what others would not do
for money.
I also remember my parents yelling stop lounging and get a Job ! So if you
don't have a daddy MoneyBags, might be better if you take the first good one
that comes your way after you've tried for say about 3-4
*snip*
Maybe we r not spreading enough awareness, besides rampant piracy aint
helping either. For people windows is free in any case and this makes
it harder to make them see the light.
Most of the people know... the trouble is accountability, ease of use,
trained people.
* Accountability so
the Beginning Linux Programming. I had just one question, where do I
purchase it from? Do we have an eastern economy edition for the same?
http://www.cb-india.com/new-dev/BookDetails.asp?BookID=BK4813PageRef=BookSearchResult_new.aspCategoryID=PageIndex=1stChar=
Gishu
--
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] C programming in the Linux environment
http://www.cb-india.com/new-dev/BookDetails.asp?BookID=BK4813PageRef=BookSearchResult_new.aspCategoryID=PageIndex=1stChar=
But thats the second edition...The latest is the 3rd:
no?. And would u by any chance like to know what hardware my os runs
on?
rgds
jtd
I was refering to Arjun's post, man ur one very sensitive creature.
Someone says something and u immediately start shouting from the roof
tops.
Hide the goats.. Troll on the loose
--
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Dual Head not working..
Apologies. I mistook your post for Arjun's.
And Dinesh's beer offer is helpful ;-).
Sorry once again Anand.
rgds
jtd
what the ...
Hey who is this and what did you do to jtd ;)
or is it the beer speaking
Gishu
--
*snip*
However if I try to install gnome for instance
apt-get install gnome
I get a slew of dependencies, which will not be installed or something to
that effect.
How do I plead with apt-get to find and install the req dependencies ? Pls keep
in mind that the
*snip*
I got this off the net
I got the Debian Sarge CDs from gautam borad, who posted on this list sometime
back. Next time dude,
pls post that the 7 CDs are unstable version r0A. Would have helped me ?
ok so I got it installed at the cost of my Suse 9.1 working install. Base
install AOK.
The sources.list file has cdrom
nux Users Group, Mumbai, India
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] mounting windows shared folder
how can i mount a windows shared folder on my linux box.. please tell me the
command as well as the enrty i can make in fstab. I am using fc2 n the
windows machine's os is XP..
Check your windows partition
On Tuesday 19 Jul 2005 10:47 am, Pillai, Gishu R (GE Energy) wrote:
Sadly, seems like Indians don't read. There is no reason for a book
a year old not to be printed for us.
which book is this?
someone changed the subject mid-thread.
See my first post on
[OT] - Computer Books which don't cost
Hello I'm Linus Torvalds, and I pronounce Linux as Linux --Linus Torvalds
Shakespeare wrote: What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other
name would smell as sweet.
Am I the only one seeing the hue n cry on something this trivial ?
Gishu
--
Am I the only one seeing the hue n cry on something this trivial ?
I don't like it when my name is mispronounced. Big phonetic difference
between 'Kapil' and 'Kopeel'.
Does that stop the next person from again calling you 'Kopeel'?
The only solution to your problem would be to wear a board
Anyone know of people who deliver computer books in Mumbai and
don't take away your house when they go back ?
The most competitive quote for the ruby 'Pickaxe book' was 2K.
Any suggestions that you yourself would try ? You could reply offlist
just in case someone takes offense.
Thanks,
Am I the only one seeing the hue n cry on something this trivial ?
I don't like it when my name is mispronounced. Big phonetic difference
between 'Kapil' and 'Kopeel'.
Does that stop the next person from again calling you 'Kopeel'?
yes it does if I catch hold of their neck and make them
Anyone know of people who deliver computer books in Mumbai and=20
don't take away your house when they go back ?
Computer Bookshop (www.cb-india.com) on D.N.Road Mumbai, offers 20%/15%
reprint? The 2K cost could be for the foreign print.
Damn.. I knew I should have written that.
The quote is
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kenneth
Gonsalves
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 4:33 PM
To: Ninad Bapat; GNU/Linux Users Group, Mumbai, India
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] What now?
On Friday 15 Jul 2005 3:23 pm, Ninad Bapat wrote:
Earlier when I
hi,
some one on this list mentioned that each tab in firefox is a separate
browser - but if find that if i am logged in to a specific site on
two tabs, logout on one tab also logs out on the other. is there any
way of keeping these two separate?
Don't think that's possible - logins would be
friday. I would have loved to attend but cant take a leave just for
OTOH, many people would rather stay at home on a weekend and bunk work
on a weekday to attend a conference. I know I would. :P
paranoidCareful some ppl higher up might be reading this
--
Good for u dude, not every one is so lucky. Atleast i'm not :P
doesn't your office give you leave? or do you just not like to take
any? I used to be like that. I wanted to save my leave for a good
Maybe he attended too many imaginary conferences already :)
--
ASCI (Agile Software Community of India) is organizing a conference on
Agile methodologies in Mumabi. The details of the conference can be
found at ASCI's website
http://202.53.78.202/agile2005/agilemumbai/index.htm.
Last place I expected this to turn up. Thanks... I'm a bit of an XP fan.
You're
The word 'anyways' is so glaringly wrong that everytime anyone uses it
anywhere, I feel like yelling, No No its not anyways its anyway anyway
man !!. :D
Google says -- Results 1 - 10 of about 3,520,000 for anyways
Suppress your urge to yodel... or You're going to be speechless.
IF you
Does it really matter as long as the poster's point comes across ?
Anyways this thread is going nowhere. Oops.. make that 3,520,001
Yes, it damn well matters. If it's too incoherent to read, I won't
bother reading it. Lots of posts here and elsewhere are like that.
If saying anyways instead of
As i already mentioned i do have personal passion towards Linux...Now
i wanna start my study of linux..Pls guide me through this..Where shud
i start from???Any resource pointers??PDF's...Thanks in advance
Personally I have yet to come across a good book on Linux. Authors bounce
off topics after
stumbled across these articles on newsforge. A Must read, it marked as
You will be ROTFL Guaranteed!
I am amazed with the things he says!
quote
For the moment, though, I advise sticking with Linux unless you have software
requirements that can only be met by using the Windows XP operating
If you read the article carefully, you will notice one main thing, It is
marked HUMOUR!
I just added that it is a weak attempt.
I think most hardcore GPL believers
would take a bit of offence if we got into mud-slinging.
Exactly.. you don't need to state that you are better
by saying the
Well, it takes all kinds to make the world. But somehow the vendor just made my
day.
I feel this guy should be invited to the next LUG meet. Should guarantee a good
turnout and an interactive (read melee) session .
Gishu
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Hi,
Just ran into a prog lang that I didn't know.. Ruby - the object oriented
scripting language. Has anyone got to grips with this language. I just bought
a book for Perl.. Is Ruby better than Perl or are they in two completely
different worlds.. http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/20020101.html
*snip*
Lotus did not make mistakes. M$ changed the win APIs and not only
did not provide it to other vendors (Novell, Lotus, IBM etc) but
also deliberately introduced bugs to prevent the victims software
from running. That is what those fines were for.
dude monoply isnt obtained by being
*snip*
Missing a minor detail.M$ has patents on large portions of the .Net
architecture. They have granted a royalty free in perpetuity licence
to the C# and CLI portion of the technology only. Other portions are
licenced on different RAND terms. In short pay for commercial use.
You are
*snip*
Met too, i also attended the first ILUG Bom meeting and the eclispe guy was
amazing. He said he is an open source Evangelist and then the glorious
question came. But i think we should commend the guys who organised it. I
mean the meting fulfilled its purpose at least for me it got me
I found the Eclipse IDE was pretty good with built in Refactoring and AutoTest
support and
I reached http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/index.php and there a number of zips
for Linux. What should I download for RHL 8?
Thanks,
Gishu Pillai
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Hi,
Is it just me or is that Rony really gets slugged a lot everytime he mentions
Windows on this list.
* I attended my first LUG Meet yesterday. There was a demo on Eclipse
from some heads from IBM -Open Source is the basis of ON Demand business,
which made absolutely no sense to
From: Kenneth Gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...apparently 'shes' are not allowed on this list
I hope you're kidding :O
Dinesh
Quoting Limp Bizkit.. 'Take a look around'
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
What exactly is the difference between C and C++ - save that we can
have OOP in both the languages?!
We don't have OOP in C. That would be the answer. C++ brought in
Encapsulation, Polymorphism, Inheritance, and a whole lot of 'heavy' concepts...
Correct me if I'm wrong. Long time since I
Does someone have the The Code and Revolution
OS movie cds. I have lent my The Code movie to a
great pal and never got them back.
Is this just to bug Yayati ?
Gishu
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
Can anyone give me the exact address of the location KReSIT, IIT
Bombay(Mumbai)?
Please also specify the best way to get there from Ghatkopar or Vidyavihar.
The way I would do it is..
1. Get to kanjurMarg via train.
2. Get a rick from the towards VT end of the platform(you should see people
All the same, it would definitely help if we could all stay civil
to each other.
if jtd changes his style - i'm leaving this group
kg
I second that! He is part of an endangered species of people who actually speak
their minds.
Gishu
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
*snipped*
why do you work
for an American company? (That is *pure* assumption on my part, excuse me if
I am wrong).
No else would hire me.
I hope you won't be chain sawing me :)
nopes
Gishu
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers
into the gospel 'Do unto others before they do it to you'
I'm not going to put in specific examples here... though I have quite a
lot.
To shorten this thread, it's difficult for a single cog to reverse the
entire machine
Gishu
This country is not going to progress until we have more positive
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Fwd: Best non intel Pc configuration available
in India
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You must be joking. The goods that we produce are actually at least
6 to 10 yrs obsolete crap
*snip*
on merit Nothing is going to happen unless *we* do something about it.
*more
Hi,
I installed Debian Sarge .. however it was a minimal install. So I don't think
the desktop managers are installed.
How do I install them now? RedHat had rpms.. I think the alternate here is apt
install.
What would be the fastest and simplest way to install Gnome for instance ?
Thanks,
Hi,
I installed Debian Sarge .. however it was a minimal install. So I don't think
the desktop managers are installed.
How do I install them now? RedHat had rpms.. I think the alternate here is apt
install.
What would be the fastest and simplest way to install Gnome for instance ?
Forgot to
You might also want to read this eBook.
Knowing Knoppix
http://db.ilug-bom.org.in/Documentation/knowing-knoppix_2004-12-30.pdf
Thanks Anurag,
I just went up a level into the parent folder and am still reeling from
the amount of info there. I'm bookmarking this.
Gishu
--
I want to know any good lite database for a stadalone PC , lite and
fast. I want to manage a small chores of my work as soft copy and
refer to them on computer ...
throw light plez
Raj
XML (although I haven't used it under linux.. but should not be a problem )
Gishu
--
I have connected these 2 with a crossover cable.
However I have only one monitor/keyboard and mouse.
Is there a way by which I can access the desktop of O and issue
commands from N with the help of software.i.e I log in to FC3 on N and
access the Ubuntu desktop of O and say issue commands run
I installed Red Hat Linux.
I want to change it to Debian.
How to upgrade Linux to Debian?
I don't think you can 'upgrade' to Debian. They are different distros or OS'es
to speak
So to install Debian.. Just install it over RHL. Take a back up of your data to
another partition if reqd.
Gishu
how to run exe file on red hat linux?
AFAIK There is no exe file in linux.
What you do have is files with the rwx (read write execute) attributes.
So if the execute bit is set and you have access to the file, you can run the
file by just typing in the filename at the shell prompt
Gishu
--
Hi,
Don't know if this is old news... Just snagged a book off the shelves.. Linux
Bible 2005 - Chris. Negus. (I got it for rs.440)
I'm just about to finish the 2nd chapter. so far so good ... not ready to
comment on the book yet.
But the killer thing is that the book comes with a DVD + CD (
Sometime on Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 10:34:44AM +0530, Vishnu Lotlikar said:
Hi,
i have a RS/6000 machine lying idle in my company, can i sue it to install
linux on the same, will GNU/linux support the hardware ???
Sue whom? IBM?
I'd be bankrupt if you could sue anything lying idle in the
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:48 PM
To: ilugd; ghaziabad lug; linuxbom; dehradun linux
Subject: [ILUG-BOM] Linux Uses Mac
Got this From a friend Check it out. The link is
http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?RSSNewsID=11039
Wednesday - March 09, 2005
Linux creator 'switches' to Mac
By
Task 1 : Activate the network card
does it detect the ethernet card?
kg
Yeah it does show the Card details .. it's a DLink Lan Card. So it shows
Realtek
If redhat-config-network-gui is the same dialog brought up
from the Desktop Start Menu-System..-Network.
I tried that before
After a rush of blood to the head, I got Steven's network programming book and
installed RHL 8 on my old machine..
But predictably enough, I got stuck in no time... after some tinkering with my
drives and an accidental partition format, I have RHL8 on dual boot working .
But the network doesn't
Won't the person also experience a force in the direction of rotation... at a tangent
at the point where he is standing on the circumference ???
in simpler words fall forward or backward... It's been a long time since I've been
into physics but still...
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL
Tourism Idea
Thats something interesting. Can you give more details? In my idea, if the
wheel is viewed horizontally, then the human will also be horizontal, with
the feet touching the circumference wall.
- Original Message -
From: Pillai, Gishu R (GE Energy) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Won't
. Sharukh K.
R. Pavri.
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 10:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ILUG-BOM] Can I get Red-Hat 9 disks ?
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004, Pillai, Gishu R (GE Energy) wrote:
Hi
I need Red-Hat 9 installs. I stay near Thane (Bombay) ... so anyone who can gimme
the CDs
Ok methinks it's time to Reply.
I knew the meaning of Open Source... but then I prefer to think of it as follows
If you value add on to the source and then charge a lil something, then it is quite
ok.
But I don't think downloading the content of the 4 cds and then burning them onto CDs
(I got a
Hi
I need Red-Hat 9 installs. I stay near Thane (Bombay) ... so anyone who can gimme the
CDs or get me the CD for me to burn, would be quite welcome..
I don't have the time/bandwidth/money to download 3/4 * 650 MBs over the net. So
please help me out here!
I have Red-Hat 8 which used to
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