Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
'The point'. Very interesting notion. Presumably, sticking any kind of extra markup in is going to cause you to have to put in as much attention, effort and typing (at least) as putting in the space manually, and css can't yet select sub-element 'objects'. So seeing as you need extra markup anyway, you are in a sense being just as much, if not more, of a burden with content (bizarre spans all over the place or one more space?). The advantage of javascript is that the spaces can be procedurally generated, which removes the odious task of parsing every sentence in this new class, or telling all your writers to manually double-space. Regards, Barney Christian Montoya wrote: As for Javascript, the whole point of Javascript solutions is to fake a technique by adding in the same amount of markup as you would in the plain HTML case, but simply hiding that markup from view-source. It's still in the DOM and you can see it with view-generated-source, so there's no reason why a Javascript alternative to an HTML/CSS technique is going to be any lighter. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Barney Carroll wrote:
'The point'. Very interesting notion.
Presumably, sticking any kind of extra markup in is going to cause you
to have to put in as much attention, effort and typing (at least) as
putting in the space manually, and css can't yet select sub-element
'objects'. So seeing as you need extra markup anyway, you are in a
sense being just as much, if not more, of a burden with content
(bizarre spans all over the place or one more space?).
The advantage of javascript is that the spaces can be procedurally
generated, which removes the odious task of parsing every sentence in
this new class, or telling all your writers to manually double-space.
Regards,
Barney
Christian Montoya wrote:
As for Javascript, the whole point of Javascript solutions is to
fake a technique by adding in the same amount of markup as you would
in the plain HTML case, but simply hiding that markup from
view-source. It's still in the DOM and you can see it with
view-generated-source, so there's no reason why a Javascript
alternative to an HTML/CSS technique is going to be any lighter.
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Agreed, naturally. But can you point to an actual example of how to do
this? Apart from the (complex) problems of avoiding Mr. Mrs. etc, I
often use PHP and this is riddled with 'periods' where I don't want
spaces. It seems to me to be a complex issue to select only . and
replace with . ? But then, you probably know something I don't!
Horrible though the span thing is, it does at least leave control of the
layout to the CSS. If you subsequently want to eliminate the spacing,
you just change the {padding-right : 0.5 em} to {padding : 0} and all
the spaces on the site go back to normal. . .
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 06/11/2006, at 10:26 PM, Designer wrote:
Horrible though the span thing is, it does at least leave control
of the layout to the CSS. If you subsequently want to eliminate the
spacing, you just change the {padding-right : 0.5 em} to {padding :
0} and all the spaces on the site go back to normal. . .
Just like you'd stop calling your Javascript function when you want
to turn off double spacing?
--
Nathan de Vries
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RE: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Designer Agreed, naturally. But can you point to an actual example of how to do this? Apart from the (complex) problems of avoiding Mr. Mrs. etc, I often use PHP and this is riddled with 'periods' where I don't want spaces. And you normally serve up raw PHP to parsed by client-side JavaScript? While I agree that style information should primarily be held in CSS, if it is to be kept out of the HTML then the next best option is in JavaScript. The suggestion here is to use 'progressive enhancement' which has been welcomed every other time it has been suggested on this list. Again though; double-spacing is wrong. Don't do it. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Here is how I do it, in PHP: $text = preg_replace(/([.!?]|#8230;)(#8221;|#8217;|\x22|\x27|\))?\s+([A-Z])/ , \\1\\2nbsp; \\3, $text); $text = preg_replace(/(Mr.|Mrs.|Ms.|Dr.|Drs.)nbsp; /, \\1 , $text); (Of course this got all hammered by line-wrap in this email, but you get the idea.) First one looks for cases that need an extra space and puts in nbsp; . Second one fixes the overzealous Mr., Mrs., etc cases. This works, handles the whole inside quotes, parens, etc. problem, even catches all the funky smart quotes, and ellipses. The nbsp; makes line wrap still work. Don't know why everyone seems to think this is so complicated. Regular expressions are your friend... -Original Message- From: Designer Subject: Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ? But can you point to an actual example of how to do this? Apart from the (complex) problems of avoiding Mr. Mrs. etc, I often use PHP and this is riddled with 'periods' where I don't want spaces. It seems to me to be a complex issue to select only . and replace with . ? But then, you probably know something I don't! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Which is semantically worse, and why? 1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup. 2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop and styling said element to create a presentational space. To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instance because there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space, and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is also semantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but at least it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing the content to insert these tags... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
BarneyThere is effectively no semantic difference. To stop the spread of grey goo on the net, the only semantics we shoud be worried about are those which are picked up by search engines, and a span class=sentence means equally as little as nbsp;nbsp; to these. It is also of little consequence to user agents if implemented correctly. When visually examined by another human, most likley for site maintenance purposes, either technique will be able to convey the meaning. If you do have to use double space, I would suggest use the no breaks as it cuts down on page length and embeded tags - Robhttp://ele.vation.co.ukOn 03/11/06, Barney Carroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Which is semantically worse, and why?1. Just manually putting the extra space in the markup. 2. Manually putting an extra inline element around the full stop andstyling said element to create a presentational space.To me, they seem just as bad as each other - in the first instancebecause there is no meaning or purpose behind a genuine double space, and the desire is purely presentational; but in the second there is alsosemantically unjustifiable extra markup (more of it by volume - but atleast it doesn't impinge upon real content) and requires even more stupid hard work in going about manually or dynamically editing thecontent to insert these tags...***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript frowned upon on this list? Why not use that? -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 11/4/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a new member to this list, I can't believe throwing span class=sentence / around EVERY SENTENCE IN YOUR CONTENT is being seen as even a remotely valid solution. Is the use of Javascript frowned upon on this list? Why not use that? How is that even remotely _invalid_? The worst I could say against this is that it was redundant, but it is serving a purpose that cannot be circumvented, so it is hardly this. Javascript isn't frowned upon for behavioural purposes -- but this isn't about behaviour at all. It's about content (perhaps -- and if you think that then your solution would be . nbsp; replacing . ) or presentation (perhaps -- and if you think that then your solution would be more tightly defined sentence markup with CSS to append trailing blank space). -- Joshua Street http://joahua.com/ +61 (0) 425 808 469 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 11/3/06, Nathan de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/11/2006, at 1:22 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Because the solution (yes, solution for a silly problem) has to work when the document is PRINTED. That means that it has to be either a plain HTML or print CSS technique. When I open up my favorite website in either IE, Opera, Firefox or Safari, and modify the content / layout using Javascript...it doesn't print the original DOM. It prints the modified DOM. Are you saying this doesn't work for you? Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions produce the same end-result. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
On 04/11/2006, at 2:13 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: Oh, in that case it's fine, but it's not really a big difference. Not a big difference? Unnecessary spans wrapped around every sentence in your content seems a _little_ bit different to plain content with post-processing done by Javascript. But spans don't show up in your browser anyway is a poor justification of a solution which is akin old school use whatever works techniques (tables for layout etc.) The point still stands that the Javascript and non-Javascript solutions produce the same end-result. Was that ever the point? I never stated that using spans + CSS would not work - I just said it was a shitty solution. They will both work (and look exactly the same), but using extraneous markup to achieve double-spacing is insane. The point was which solution is better in the long run? I argue that using Javascript is. Every time you change your content and need to wrap spans around your sentences, you might start thinking the same thing. -- Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
There was quite the flame war on this topic about a month ago, you might want to check archives... You will certainly get some responses in the why would you do that, it's old-school, and it's wrong variety. But I insist on it as well on my site, and I have done a great deal of research on how to accomplish it. In short, there is no good CSS way to do this, and there is really only one way to accomplish it: with nbsp;space. This preserves line breaking and provides the necessary space. I do it reliably through PHP on my site, if you want to see my regular expression code that does it, talk to me off list, and I'll happily give you the code (I was attacked the last time I posted it...). If you want/need to do it with HTML, I can only think of inserting it by hand... A real PITA. HTH, Chris From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ? A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
on 02/11/2006 19:24 Nick Roper said the following: A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. Have they said why? Or indicated how big a unit a single space is (serious question)? If they're looking to improve readability, there are far more significant issues that they should be considering - such as what font type is being used, as well as line-height letter-spacing and word-spacing. Not to mention that actual construction of the content itself. Adding an extra space to the end of each sentence hasn't been shown to improve readability in any study I've read and might actually impede reading in the same way that justified text can do. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? Nothing immediately springs to my mind. (X)HTML simply doesn't have a mechanisem for indicating where one sentence starts and another begins within a single paragraph. Enclose every sentence in a span and then style the span? It would be extremely tedious and would bloat the markup terribly (and unnecessarily, in my opinion). And for what benefit? Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it was
decided that each sentence was best put in a span class=sentence
wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had problems,
it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is under
construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the padding, but
it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to have a small %
incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout the rest of the
page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Best Regards,
Bob McClelland
Cornwall (UK)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
Adjust the leading (line-height) of p.
body { font: 100%/normal sans-serif; }
p { line-height: 1.6; margin:0 0 1em 0;padding:0;}
Best,
~dL
--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
~davidLaakso wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could
do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
Adjust the leading (line-height) of p.
body { font: 100%/normal sans-serif; }
p { line-height: 1.6; margin:0 0 1em 0;padding:0;}
Best,
~dL
Ignore what I wrote. I am out to lunch :-) .
~d
--
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply, I'll get in touch off-list for the regex code - much appreciated. We use PHP to implement CMS for clients so that would fit well. Before anyone does leap into print to condemn the practice as old-school or wrong, I'm not really interested in getting involved in a debate. My client is paying the money, they want two spaces, and - as far as I can see - it doesn't have any impact on usability or accessibility. Also, the client is a solicitor and 'old-school' anyway. Thanks, Nick Chris Williams wrote: There was quite the flame war on this topic about a month ago, you might want to check archives... You will certainly get some responses in the why would you do that, it's old-school, and it's wrong variety. But I insist on it as well on my site, and I have done a great deal of research on how to accomplish it. In short, there is no good CSS way to do this, and there is really only one way to accomplish it: with nbsp;space. This preserves line breaking and provides the necessary space. I do it reliably through PHP on my site, if you want to see my regular expression code that does it, talk to me off list, and I'll happily give you the code (I was attacked the last time I posted it...). If you want/need to do it with HTML, I can only think of inserting it by hand... A real PITA. HTH, Chris From: Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ? A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Nick Roper partner logical elements innovative web and internet solutions zend/php mysql approved partner email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: +44 1749 676798 www: www.logical.co.uk skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
Designer,
Thanks for that. I see what you mean about the space at the end of the
line in para 2, but the content won't be justified on the site so
shouldn't be an issue.
Nick
Designer wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two spaces
between the end of one sentence and the start of the next. We could do
it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a better way of
achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it was
decided that each sentence was best put in a span class=sentence
wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had problems,
it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is under
construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the padding, but
it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to have a small %
incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout the rest of the
page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements
innovative web and internet solutions
zend/php mysql approved partner
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +44 1749 676798
www: www.logical.co.uk
skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587
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Re: [WSG] Additional space between sentences ?
I catch your point Nick, the solution with span class=sentence is
probably the best, but I have to point that using double space after
sentence is completely wrong. It is not “old school”—it is “bad
school”. Jan Tschichold [1] and Robert Bringhurst [2] both wrote in
their books (‘Form of the Book’[3] and ‘The Elements of Typographic
Style’ [4]) about wrong tradition of double space, which came from
typewriter’s age.
Client is client, but this is bad practice to put double space at the
end of the sentence, just remember that or may be explain it to
client. If he would like to look deeper at typography—there are
plenty of places where to look and what to improove, but this is not
the case.
best regards,
Dmitry Baranovskiy
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Tschichold
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bringhurst
3. http://www.amazon.com/Form-Book-Essays-Morality-Design/dp/0881790346/
4. http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Typographic-Style-Robert-Bringhurst/
dp/0881792055/
Here is quote from ‘The Elements of Typographic Style’ on
webtypography.net.
“In the nineteenth century, which was a dark and inflationary age in
typography and type design, many compositors were encouraged to stuff
extra space between sentences. Generations of twentieth century
typists were then taught to do the same, by hitting the spacebar
twice after every period [full stop]. Your typing as well as your
typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint Victorian habit.
As a general rule, no more than a single space is required after a
period, colon or any other mark of punctuation.”
On 03/11/2006, at 7:47 AM, Nick Roper wrote:
Designer,
Thanks for that. I see what you mean about the space at the end of
the line in para 2, but the content won't be justified on the site
so shouldn't be an issue.
Nick
Designer wrote:
Nick Roper wrote:
Hi Group,
A client has requested that the content on their site has two
spaces between the end of one sentence and the start of the next.
We could do it by using non-breaking spaces, but is there a
better way of achieving this - possibly with CSS?
Thanks in anticipation.
Nick
We had a discussion on this recently, and, although tedious, it
was decided that each sentence was best put in a span
class=sentence wherein this was defined simply as :
.sentence {padding-right: 0.5em; }
All other approaches (non-breaking space, using pre, etc) had
problems, it seems.
You can see a page done like this at:
http://www.rhh.myzen.co.uk/rhh2007/terms/terms.html (this site is
under construction)
You can see one of the pitfalls in paragraph 2: if the text is
justified, you encounter some lines shorter, because of the
padding, but it isn't often, so I decided that it was better to
have a small % incorrect whilst maintaining the spacing throughout
the rest of the page/site.
I have painstakingly done this for the whole of the site - but the
client is delighted! :'( and :-)
HTH,
--
Nick Roper
partner
logical elements
innovative web and internet solutions
zend/php mysql approved partner
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +44 1749 676798
www: www.logical.co.uk
skype: nick.roper / +44 20 7870 9587
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