Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
I suppose server-side makes the most sense, since the page view isn't required to be dynamic per se. Very neat idea. Thierry Koblentz wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a good reason for doing this with JavaScript rather than doing it server side? Do you know of a SS solution to do this? I'd be glad to link to it from my article. IMHO, it's not a server-side vs. client-side thing, but a simple matter of what's available to authors. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
Thierry, I don't know of an existing solution, but where static pages are concerned, anything that can be done with JS can be done with PERL, PHP, JSP or whatever. In this case, I am in two minds as to whether this counts as 'progressive enhancement' or not. If it is, then JS is acceptable (not necessarily best) solution. On the other hand, this solution has already been discussed in the context of final print output, and would seem beneficial to all users, regardless of technology, which makes server-side manipulation much more effective. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz to it from my article. IMHO, it's not a server-side vs. client-side thing, but a simple matter of what's available to authors. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
I don't know of an existing solution, but where static pages are concerned, anything that can be done with JS can be done with PERL, PHP, JSP or whatever. I tend to disagree. I think trying to manipulate your HTML output by buffering it and processing it on the server side is overkill. JavaScript works nicely here because the HTML is going to be parsed and loaded into the DOM client side anyway. I also think what Thierry is proposing is a simple solution which will degrade nicely if JavaScript is unavailable or turned off. You could fall back to the CSS styling of your abbreviations in that case. I also think this technique may also have value in the presentation of microformats as in vCard. You could put a little business card icon next to names which could show the contact information on a hover over. On the other hand, this solution has already been discussed in the context of final print output, and would seem beneficial to all users, regardless of technology, which makes server-side manipulation much more effective. This is really not a print issue, since Thierry is dealing with an attribute in a tag (abbr) it wouldn't show up on a print out. A similar instance is where print outs don't show the URL (href attributes) to links. My two cents, Kepler Gelotte *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
I like the idea, regardless of client- or server-side rendering. Could this be turned into a Greasemonkey script? ~ Tim tjameswhite.com - Original Message From: Kepler Gelotte [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2006 9:37:49 AM Subject: RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations I don't know of an existing solution, but where static pages are concerned, anything that can be done with JS can be done with PERL, PHP, JSP or whatever. I tend to disagree. I think trying to manipulate your HTML output by buffering it and processing it on the server side is overkill. JavaScript works nicely here because the HTML is going to be parsed and loaded into the DOM client side anyway. I also think what Thierry is proposing is a simple solution which will degrade nicely if JavaScript is unavailable or turned off. You could fall back to the CSS styling of your abbreviations in that case. I also think this technique may also have value in the presentation of microformats as in vCard. You could put a little business card icon next to names which could show the contact information on a hover over. On the other hand, this solution has already been discussed in the context of final print output, and would seem beneficial to all users, regardless of technology, which makes server-side manipulation much more effective. This is really not a print issue, since Thierry is dealing with an attribute in a tag (abbr) it wouldn't show up on a print out. A similar instance is where print outs don't show the URL (href attributes) to links. My two cents, Kepler Gelotte *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
-Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kepler Gelotte Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations I tend to disagree. I think trying to manipulate your HTML output by buffering it and processing it on the server side is overkill. It does depend on what server-side stuff you have available - I'm not saying this is a bad idea, just that it is probably better done on the server. JavaScript works nicely here because the HTML is going to be parsed and loaded into the DOM client side anyway. Not for everyone - I do a lot of work in JavaScript, but it is unavailable on 5 - 10% of clients. I also think what Thierry is proposing is a simple solution Agreed which will degrade nicely if JavaScript is unavailable or turned off. No it won't degrade, it will stop working. This is more of a fix for broken presentation than an enhancement - an abreviation should always be presented in full the first time that it is usen in print, (with the abrev. following in brackets). I don't see any reason why this is different on the web, though I admit it is not common practice. You could fall back to the CSS styling of your abbreviations in that case. This is not about styling. I also think this technique may also have value in the presentation of microformats as in vCard. You could put a little business card icon next to names which could show the contact information on a hover over. Agreed, but that is a whole other idea, which I believe has already been covered, and which is purely presentational. This is really not a print issue, since Thierry is dealing with an attribute in a tag (abbr) it wouldn't show up on a print out. I haven't tried this technique yet, but someone has already stated that since this manipulates the DOM it _will_ appear in print - the whole point is that it would not have appeared without this script! A similar instance is where print outs don't show the URL (href attributes) to links. Which has been adressed frquently in the past, in a number of ways, with good reason. Regards, Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not about styling. Without the measures being discussed, the consensus is that it is all styling. How the abbreviation element is styled will, short of javascript, dictate how the abbreviation's full form will be made available. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
I think it is a little early to be claiming consensus on this! Correct me if I am wrong, but without this fix, most users will never see the full form of the abbreviation. That seems like a little more than just styling to me. Mike -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barney Carroll Without the measures being discussed, the consensus is that it is all styling. How the abbreviation element is styled will, short of javascript, dictate how the abbreviation's full form will be made available. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it is a little early to be claiming consensus on this! Correct me if I am wrong, but without this fix, most users will never see the full form of the abbreviation. That seems like a little more than just styling to me. Mike I think this is a misunderstanding. I'm saying that, prior to this whole conversation, the use of abbreviations relies on styling to govern how the full form is displayed. What Thierry is suggesting is use of the abbreviation element by script to modify the content - but without this (say, upon the javascript degrading - and by degrading gracefully, we mean being removed without crippling the site) you have to rely on styling to get your abbreviations effective. Generally, people give abbreviations a dotted bottom border and make the full form available as a tool-tip upon mouse-over. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this counts as 'progressive enhancement' or not. If it is, then JS is acceptable (not necessarily best) solution. On the other hand, this solution has already been discussed in the context of final print output, and would seem beneficial to all users, regardless of technology, which makes server-side manipulation much more effective. Mike, Barney, My previous post was not about the best side to do this; it was only related to giving authors options. Some may not want to go with a server-side solution, others may not be able to... This script is just another tool in the box, it doesn't claim to answer a question ;-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
Is there a good reason for doing this with JavaScript rather than doing it server side? Regards, Mike -Original Message- Subject: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations Demo: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/TJK_abbr_demo.asp Article: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how_to_expand_abbreviations.asp I'd appreciate any comment that would help me improve this solution. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using JS to expand Abbreviations
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a good reason for doing this with JavaScript rather than doing it server side? Do you know of a SS solution to do this? I'd be glad to link to it from my article. IMHO, it's not a server-side vs. client-side thing, but a simple matter of what's available to authors. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
