Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
Rob O'Rourke wrote: ul class=news-articles li p class=date09-12-2006/p h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p pa href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a/p /li /ul James.I think using 'p' element is more appropriate as date it's text content. So: I'd hesitate to use p tags like that because I wouldn't say the date is a paragraph. Spans and divs are perfectly acceptable content containers but i'm just nitpicking again. Rob O Why you wouldn't say that date in this case is not paragraph? Paragraph in html is just block of text and this is block of text content isn't? We don't have 'date' element in html therefore we need to take more universal element which in first row for me is 'p'.. (universal element for text content).. after that would be 'div' which is universal for any content but I think using it to wrap text is nearly same misconception as using divs for lists. -- Mariusz Nowak Skype: mariuszn3 AIM: mariuszn3 WWW: http://www.medikoo.com XHTML/CSS Coding: http://cxc.medikoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I think that in the original case, the date can't really be perceived as a header item. And moreover, although I'm embroiled in a similar thread on another list arguing against tradition, I feel that having an h[n] immediately following an h[n-1] is very strange. However there are a few things I'd like to say about header semantics generally. - Love of the DOM will not teach you good English. HTML is as full of (often ambiguous) tags as it is to accommodate writers, not vice-versa. - Headers do not grow on trees. ie The logic of having: h1 h2 h3 h3 h2 h1 h2 h2 ...is flawed. Headers do not contain anything other than themselves. - There are plenty of real-world examples of documents where the header is not the first object on the page - in the case of the news article mentioned; letters where an address contextualizes the document before its subject becomes apparent... - There is a reason h1 and title are distinct. One might think this is simply because the same object cannot simultaneously be in the head and body of a document, but that's not necessarily true. A title may contain what the body would display as a combination of h# tags, for instance titleOrganization - Your profile/title = h1Organization/h1 h2Members area/h2 ... h1Your profile/h1 Regards, Barney *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
That's because i think that the headings should have some logical order, I mean that before every h3 there should be some h2, that describes in some sense what about is that h3 h1 Site title h2 Post title h3 Post passage n1 h3 Post passage n3 h2 Some links on the page(not post) Dont you think that we are losing that logical order in your case? Im still in doubt is it completely correct to go with it. if you check your document with validator with the outline option checked, it will produce smth like A level 2 heading is missing! See this url for instance http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcssbeauty.com%2Fcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlineoutline=1 That is the reason i think its not quite correct. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3 was
preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2. If the
title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems sensible). The
use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, Tim White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog
--
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
beta.http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I myself have been marking up new summaries with definition lists. Very
practical.
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
You can alter this format as well, like:
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dtHeadline for my Article/dt
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
Headings would be used to precede to news summaries all together, like:
h3My Site's latest Articles/h3
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
etc
Rob Kirton wrote:
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3
was preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2.
If the title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems
sensible). The use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, *Tim White* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog http://www.tjameswhite.com/blog
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006
12:53 PM
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
*Sites by Joe, LLC*
/Custom Web Design Development/
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609) 335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***begin:vcard
fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor
n:Taylor;Joseph
org:Sites by Joe, LLC
adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;work:609-335-3076
tel;cell:609-335-3076
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://sitesbyjoe.com
version:2.1
end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this?
h2Our News/h2
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dd
h3News Headline/h3
pTeaser statement for the article./p
pLink to Full Story/p
/dd
/dl
Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other kind of
list (I didn't check).
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
- Original Message -
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I myself have been marking up new summaries with definition lists. Very
practical.
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
You can alter this format as well, like:
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dtHeadline for my Article/dt
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
Headings would be used to precede to news summaries all together, like:
h3My Site's latest Articles/h3
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
etc
Rob Kirton wrote:
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3
was preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2.
If the title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems
sensible). The use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, *Tim White* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog http://www.tjameswhite.com/blog
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006
12:53 PM
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
*Sites by Joe, LLC*
/Custom Web Design Development/
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609) 335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
That's because i think that the headings should have some logical order, I mean that before every h3 there should be some h2, that describes in some sense what about is that h3 [...] Dont you think that we are losing that logical order in your case? I certainly understand your point. And while I agree that having the h3 before the h2 is a little off, I'm willing to accept that because semantically I feel that the title is more important (hence, an h2) than the date. Of course, just because the *display* is Date Title doesn't mean that the code has to be that way. Your HTML could be: h2Title/h2 h3date/h3 and then use a little CSS positioning to move them around. Im still in doubt is it completely correct to go with it. if you check your document with validator with the outline option checked, it will produce smth like A level 2 heading is missing! See this url for instance http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcssbeauty.com%2Fcharset =%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlineoutline=1 Hmm, interesting. Looking at the W3C spec, http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 it doesn't specify that there needs to be an order, but does have a note that says Some people consider skipping heading levels to be bad practice. ~ Tim tjameswhite.com Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
What about h2Title of the article span class=date9-12-2006/span/h2 ? I must admit i'm a bit of a css positioning junkie, I always do stuff like that in my h1s but thats the structure i use for my news articles. Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
Mike,
Thats an interesting point. I always thought that any given dt or
dd should hold one piece of information only. If nesting stuff inside
them like that is completely legit that certainly opens up a lot of
possibilities.
Consider this:
dl
dtimg src=house_photo.jpg //dt
dt123 Property Address/dt
dd3 Bedrooms | 1.5 Baths/dd
dd$150,000/dd
ddView Link/dd
/dl
This is how I've been marking up property lists (single list unit
shown), which is where my previous example was coming from. Your
example seems to capture the information relationship pretty well
thoughh
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this?
h2Our News/h2
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dd
h3News Headline/h3
pTeaser statement for the article./p
pLink to Full Story/p
/dd
/dl
Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other kind of
list (I didn't check).
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
- Original Message -
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I myself have been marking up new summaries with definition lists. Very
practical.
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
You can alter this format as well, like:
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dtHeadline for my Article/dt
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
Headings would be used to precede to news summaries all together, like:
h3My Site's latest Articles/h3
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
etc
Rob Kirton wrote:
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3
was preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2.
If the title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems
sensible). The use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, *Tim White* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog http://www.tjameswhite.com/blog
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=45083/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006
12:53 PM
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
*Sites by Joe, LLC*
/Custom Web Design Development/
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609) 335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***begin:vcard
fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor
n:Taylor;Joseph
org:Sites by Joe, LLC
adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
tel;work:609-335-3076
tel;cell:609-335-3076
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://sitesbyjoe.com
version:2.1
end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: Mike, Thats an interesting point. I always thought that any given dt or dd should hold one piece of information only. If nesting stuff inside them like that is completely legit that certainly opens up a lot of possibilities. Consider this: dl dtimg src=house_photo.jpg //dt dt123 Property Address/dt dd3 Bedrooms | 1.5 Baths/dd dd$150,000/dd ddView Link/dd /dl This is how I've been marking up property lists (single list unit shown), which is where my previous example was coming from. Your example seems to capture the information relationship pretty well thoughh Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this? h2Our News/h2 dl dt2006-12-09/dt dd h3News Headline/h3 pTeaser statement for the article./p pLink to Full Story/p /dd /dl Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other kind of list (I didn't check). Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ Hi, On the topic of using definition lists in this sense I know some people would argue that the examples above aren't semantically accurate. I have seen dls used as a way of organising Name-Value pairs which I've recently implemented on some product detail screens but is an article's *date* defined by its *excerpt*? Wouldn't an ordered list be better? (or unordered, I'm not that fussy =P) eg. ul class=news-articles li div class=date09-12-2006/div h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a /li /ul Also, why does the date need to come first? And does it really need to be a heading? I'm actually asking because I've thought about it but never really drawn any solid conclusions. Just some thoughts, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
The date in design - so it's just better for it to go first in code too. So my problem was that i just cant use h3-h2 - considering its not logically correct. As for your structure ul class=news-articles li div class=date09-12-2006/div h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a /li /ul May be then this would be the best one: small09-12-2006/small h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p On 12/9/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: Mike, Thats an interesting point. I always thought that any given dt or dd should hold one piece of information only. If nesting stuff inside them like that is completely legit that certainly opens up a lot of possibilities. Consider this: dl dtimg src=house_photo.jpg //dt dt123 Property Address/dt dd3 Bedrooms | 1.5 Baths/dd dd$150,000/dd ddView Link/dd /dl This is how I've been marking up property lists (single list unit shown), which is where my previous example was coming from. Your example seems to capture the information relationship pretty well thoughh Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this? h2Our News/h2 dl dt2006-12-09/dt dd h3News Headline/h3 pTeaser statement for the article./p pLink to Full Story/p /dd /dl Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other kind of list (I didn't check). Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ Hi, On the topic of using definition lists in this sense I know some people would argue that the examples above aren't semantically accurate. I have seen dls used as a way of organising Name-Value pairs which I've recently implemented on some product detail screens but is an article's *date* defined by its *excerpt*? Wouldn't an ordered list be better? (or unordered, I'm not that fussy =P) eg. ul class=news-articles li div class=date09-12-2006/div h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a /li /ul Also, why does the date need to come first? And does it really need to be a heading? I'm actually asking because I've thought about it but never really drawn any solid conclusions. Just some thoughts, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- glhf, akella. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
akella wrote: The date in design - so it's just better for it to go first in code too. Right, thanks. It makes sense and it seems to be the norm on every news related thing I've looked at in the last half hour. So my problem was that i just cant use h3-h2 - considering its not logically correct. As for your structure ul class=news-articles li div class=date09-12-2006/div h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p a href=full-articleRead the whole thing/a /li /ul May be then this would be the best one: small09-12-2006/small h2Article title/h2 pExcerpt here/p Yep, or any variation on that I guess. Ideally there'd be a date tag but lets not go there :-) Cheers, Rob O *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
