Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-19 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Steve Mynott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   
   Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at
   success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those
   started by MBAs or middle managers..
   
  
  business sense != project sucess
 
 why not?  I would have thought similar skills were involved in both?
 

i used to think so, but having seen business ``hackers'' at work i have
seen the light. there is a breed of person who is so skilled at hacking
the business system/structures especially inter-business arrangements
that they have an entirely different skillset

looking back at Aaron's post i agree with him on middle management but
not wrt good MD's

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
 right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 

Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies?

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

 David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]
 
 you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
consluting on the side, of course.

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Aaron Trevena

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote:

 At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
  right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
 
 Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?

I would join but I appear to be jinxed at the moment. so it would be
unfair on the rest ;)

A.

-- 
A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A
"As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a 
complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal 
Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)






Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Neil Ford

Roger Burton West [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed:

  RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine
  systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are
  doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful
  programmers.

  And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as
  clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding
  them.

Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of
perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still
need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to
drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do
the second 90% of any job :-)

Anyone know one?

Well kinda :-)

The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-)

I need to see thing how things pan out here and on a couple of other 
fronts first. Toys are always a good incentive.

And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy.

Quite happy to consider that, doing the sysadminy / strategy / 
project management type stuff can't code perl for toffee I'm 
afraid.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.binky.ourshack.org



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread John

David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
  At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market
   right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. 
  
  Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it?
 
 Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat]

Hmmm, does sound good though.

John

-- 
:wq



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* John ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 
 Hmmm, does sound good though.
 

it all depends what you mean, do you mean a proper consultancy or
a bunch of people getting together to share accounting/marketting?

if its a proper consultancy, you'd have to wear suits, be polite
and be in work for 9 in the morning

if you were a contractor joining it you could expect a 50%+ pay cut

instead of recruiters taking a skim, the running of the company
including advertising, management etc. would all eat some of the cash

also you'd need to focus it by problem areas not by language

having said all of this, if its a later its a good idea

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

"Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 - Original Message -
 From: "David Cantrell" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25
 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
 
 
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
 
   David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy
  to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send
  invoices out on time.  All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of
  consluting on the side, of course.
 
 
 Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen
 consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk,
 and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching
 around for work for you.

Gunther had a lot of experience with this at extropia and I have some
mail somorewhere I'm sure he'd be happy to share (but obviously I'll
ask him). However, they were developing an application rather than
bodyshopping^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H consulting.

If you/we got the likes of Andy *hint* on board then I'd go in at the
high end with "getting it right" type of stuff. 

There are also enough products out there that have perl behind them
that there's plenty of scope for installation/customising.

What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
 anyway?

Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
programmer. And the task.

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



RE: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread dcross - David Cross

From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
 
  What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
  anyway?
 
 Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
 programmer. And the task.

Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
"getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

Dave...

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Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Michael Stevens

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.

When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

Michael



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
 than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
 if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
 "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 

yes, but if it was a proper consultancy youd be expected to write off some
of that occasionally and also maybe have some centralised support

of the course the real cash comes from ongoing support contracts

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:29:20PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote:
  Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less
  than 50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about 500/day. I'd have thought that
  if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's
  "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that.
 
 When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge
 clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff.

There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
pays!

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread David Cantrell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:

 there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
 with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
 to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow

Both, of course :-)

-- 
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/

   Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
 
  there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business
  with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want
  to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow
 
 Both, of course :-)
 

yip, but you have to make a choice

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Cross

At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
  
   there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
   business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
   do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
   see it grow
  
  Both, of course :-)
 
 yip, but you have to make a choice

Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
metamorphose into the latter?

Dave...



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Greg McCarroll

* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 

an initial wage structure/share division for the former may not be
appropriate for the latter, this of course could be changed but you
may run into disagreements at the stage of this change

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Dave Hodgkinson

dcross - David Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42
  
   What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get
   anyway?
  
  Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the
  programmer. And the task.
 
 Sounds a tad low to me.

I said "from..."

-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star   http://www.deep-purple.com
  Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire
  -



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread James Powell

On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
 At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
   
there is a big question here, do people want to create a small 
business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or 
do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to 
see it grow
   
   Both, of course :-)
  
  yip, but you have to make a choice
 
 Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time
 metamorphose into the latter?
 
 Dave...

I presume if the vast majority of the money is going directly into
people's pockets there won't be much going into things that build the
infrastructure of the company - training and so on.

Also one way to build a business is to create a "product" and build round
that (eg cough spew choke Vignette). Working on this sort of thing
may not result in great income in the short term compared to say chucking
ten people off to Goldman Sachs.

jp



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Robin Szemeti

On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote:

 There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client
 pays!

not here at 'Redpoint Consulting' there isn't :)

-- 
Robin Szemeti

The box said "requires windows 95 or better"
So I installed Linux!



Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered

2001-01-18 Thread Steve Mynott

Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
  
  Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at
  success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those
  started by MBAs or middle managers..
  
 
 business sense != project sucess

why not?  I would have thought similar skills were involved in both?

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]

brook's law:
adding manpower to a late software project makes it later