Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Steve Mynott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > > > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > > > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > > > > > > > business sense != project sucess > > why not? I would have thought similar skills were involved in both? > i used to think so, but having seen business ``hackers'' at work i have seen the light. there is a breed of person who is so skilled at hacking the business system/structures especially inter-business arrangements that they have an entirely different skillset looking back at Aaron's post i agree with him on middle management but not wrt good MD's -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > > > > business sense != project sucess why not? I would have thought similar skills were involved in both? -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] brook's law: adding manpower to a late software project makes it later
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client > pays! not here at 'Redpoint Consulting' there isn't :) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > > see it grow > > > > > > Both, of course :-) > > > > yip, but you have to make a choice > > Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time > metamorphose into the latter? > > Dave... I presume if the vast majority of the money is going directly into people's pockets there won't be much going into things that build the infrastructure of the company - training and so on. Also one way to build a business is to create a "product" and build round that (eg cough spew choke Vignette). Working on this sort of thing may not result in great income in the short term compared to say chucking ten people off to Goldman Sachs. jp
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
dcross - David Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > > anyway? > > > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > > programmer. And the task. > > Sounds a tad low to me. I said "from..." -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > > see it grow > > > > > > Both, of course :-) > > > > yip, but you have to make a choice > > Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time > metamorphose into the latter? > an initial wage structure/share division for the former may not be appropriate for the latter, this of course could be changed but you may run into disagreements at the stage of this change -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
- Original Message - From: "Michael Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 14:29 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. --- These numbers sound a lot more reasonable than what I thought was the going rate. I've stuck with SAP mostly because of the cash (it's not unreasonable to ask for 100gbp/hour for SAP - yes I know, I'm not worth it, but my company get most of it anyway). But if I could get the same for doing interesting work instead...it is interesting, and fun, isn't it? Or do you get cynical and bored like with any other job. /Robert
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > see it grow > > > > Both, of course :-) > > yip, but you have to make a choice Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time metamorphose into the latter? Dave...
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business > > with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want > > to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow > > Both, of course :-) > yip, but you have to make a choice -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business > with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want > to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow Both, of course :-) -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > business sense != project sucess there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Marcel Grunauer wrote: > > Michael Stevens writes: > > >When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge > >clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. > > Ok, but that's for a company, with administrative overhead etc. For a > single consultant/programmer/system analyst/whatever, IMO GBP 500/day is > quite good; I never got above 50/hr with an agent and 60/hr without an > agent (but jobs are easier to come by if you have a pimp). If solicitors can have an office just for a few partners it can't be that hard to do it as consultants. Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those started by MBAs or middle managers.. A. -- http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:29:20PM +, Michael Stevens wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. > > When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge > clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client pays! -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > > anyway? > > > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > > programmer. And the task. > > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. > yes, but if it was a proper consultancy youd be expected to write off some of that occasionally and also maybe have some centralised support of the course the real cash comes from ongoing support contracts -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. Michael
RE: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > anyway? > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > programmer. And the task. Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
"Robert Shiels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > - Original Message - > From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25 > Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered > > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > > > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy > > to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send > > invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of > > consluting on the side, of course. > > > > Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen > consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk, > and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching > around for work for you. Gunther had a lot of experience with this at extropia and I have some mail somorewhere I'm sure he'd be happy to share (but obviously I'll ask him). However, they were developing an application rather than bodyshopping^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H consulting. If you/we got the likes of Andy *hint* on board then I'd go in at the high end with "getting it right" type of stuff. There are also enough products out there that have perl behind them that there's plenty of scope for installation/customising. >What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > anyway? Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the programmer. And the task. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
- Original Message - From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy > to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send > invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of > consluting on the side, of course. > Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk, and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching around for work for you. I'm not available (or good enough) to work full time as a perl programmer, but my current company works very much along these lines for SAP. The only difference is that one person is the owner of the company. SAP chargeout rates are pretty high though, which probably affects the economics of the thing. What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get anyway? /Robert
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* John ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Hmmm, does sound good though. > it all depends what you mean, do you mean a proper consultancy or a bunch of people getting together to share accounting/marketting? if its a proper consultancy, you'd have to wear suits, be polite and be in work for 9 in the morning if you were a contractor joining it you could expect a 50%+ pay cut instead of recruiters taking a skim, the running of the company including advertising, management etc. would all eat some of the cash also you'd need to focus it by problem areas not by language having said all of this, if its a later its a good idea -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] Hmmm, does sound good though. John -- :wq
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
>Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed: >> >> >RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine >> >systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are >> >doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful >> >programmers. >> >> And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as >> clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding >> them. > >Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of >perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still >need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to >drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do >the second 90% of any job :-) > >Anyone know one? > Well kinda :-) >The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-) > I need to see thing how things pan out here and on a couple of other fronts first. Toys are always a good incentive. >And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market >right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > Quite happy to consider that, doing the sysadminy / strategy / project management type stuff can't code perl for toffee I'm afraid. Neil. -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote: > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? I would join but I appear to be jinxed at the moment. so it would be unfair on the rest ;) A. -- http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 18 Jan 2001 10:31:02 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] > > you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Depending on who we're targetting as clients, image _may_ be an issue here :) > Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies? Because agents are fine and useful members of society and we feel duty-bound to help support their cocaine habits? Dave...
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] > > you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of consluting on the side, of course. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies? -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? Dave...
