Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
+1 for handling alternate CD as a main distribution, with an option to switch to LiveCD+Ubiquity for those who install Lubuntu on more resource-rich configurations. Regards, Mikhail 2011/3/31 Jorge Andrés Alvarez Oré winningl...@gmail.com +1 alternate CD It´s suppose that the minimal memory for use Lubuntu is 192MB, but with 256MB to install it, it´s impossible to use it with a very old computer. My suggestion it´s to share a text install (alternate CD) by default. Anyway now Lubuntu isn't for beginners Linux user, so with a text install no body will be complicated. (My experience: the first Linux distro that i install [Ubuntu 7.04], i installed with the alternate CD, with my 256MB of ram memory [and Pentium 4 celeron] was impossible to install with GUI. Even if was my first install i could do it without a problem. The installations it´s intuitive. Sorry for my English. 2011/3/30 PCMan pcman...@gmail.com Text based installer + 1. The alternate CD with console-based UI is good enough IMO if it can have l10n user interface. Windows installer has long been text-based since windows 3.1 and it's still text-based in windows xp. Nobody complains of this so why should we insist that there should be a graphical one? Yes, if you boot from Windows xp installer cd on a machine without OS, you'll enter text-based installer. The GUI part is only available after the basic system is set up. Actually, we can do the same. The text-based installer (part I) only installs base system and core components and then reboot and automatically login X11 with a super user. After boot, a GUI-based installer (part II) is launched and continues the remaining parts. This can make things much easier. The only problem with this approach is, we cannot have a good GUI-based UI for partitioning. Windows XP handle this in text-mode, too. However, I see no real problem here. The rationale is quite simple. Users who doesn't know how to use text-based UI are also the ones that will almost always choose automatic partitioning. Others who like to use customized and manual partitioning are definitely advanced power users who don't need a GUI installer. So don't put 80% of development resources to do what only 20% people need. Please, if someone know how to work with the text-based debian installer, consider this approach. Let's set up a base system with the text-based one, and continue the remainng parts in a GUI installer after rebooting into X11. This is also what Windows does. Comments? On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. We used the same than Ubuntu, which have some advantages (ex: shared development) and disadvantages (ex: memory usage is not the priority of the ubiquity devs). Installer need some improvements (reducing memory usage, add option to install only lubuntu-core ...), but it's not the easiest part of Lubuntu / Ubuntu :) The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? I just thought I'd ask the question, I personally have no qualms installing by either method. I understand the rationale for both having a graphical installer and using the Ubuntu default installation method but if it's going to go against one of the main functions of Lubuntu it might be worth considering the text based installer as the default? I just thought I'd throw it out there so all ideas are discussed, obviously, for 11.04 this is not going to happen but if the memory requirements continue to build I think having this brought up now would be useful to think about. Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Text based installer + 1. The alternate CD with console-based UI is good enough IMO if it can have l10n user interface. Windows installer has long been text-based since windows 3.1 and it's still text-based in windows xp. Nobody complains of this so why should we insist that there should be a graphical one? Yes, if you boot from Windows xp installer cd on a machine without OS, you'll enter text-based installer. The GUI part is only available after the basic system is set up. Actually, we can do the same. The text-based installer (part I) only installs base system and core components and then reboot and automatically login X11 with a super user. After boot, a GUI-based installer (part II) is launched and continues the remaining parts. This can make things much easier. The only problem with this approach is, we cannot have a good GUI-based UI for partitioning. Windows XP handle this in text-mode, too. However, I see no real problem here. The rationale is quite simple. Users who doesn't know how to use text-based UI are also the ones that will almost always choose automatic partitioning. Others who like to use customized and manual partitioning are definitely advanced power users who don't need a GUI installer. So don't put 80% of development resources to do what only 20% people need. Please, if someone know how to work with the text-based debian installer, consider this approach. Let's set up a base system with the text-based one, and continue the remainng parts in a GUI installer after rebooting into X11. This is also what Windows does. Comments? On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Am Mittwoch 30 März 2011, um 14:23:52 schrieb PCMan: Text based installer + 1. The alternate CD with console-based UI is good enough IMO if it can have l10n user interface. Windows installer has long been text-based since windows 3.1 and it's still text-based in windows xp. Nobody complains of this so why should we insist that there should be a graphical one? Yes, if you boot from Windows xp installer cd on a machine without OS, you'll enter text-based installer. The GUI part is only available after the basic system is set up. Actually, we can do the same. The text-based installer (part I) only installs base system and core components and then reboot and automatically login X11 with a super user. After boot, a GUI-based installer (part II) is launched and continues the remaining parts. This can make things much easier. The only problem with this approach is, we cannot have a good GUI-based UI for partitioning. Windows XP handle this in text-mode, too. However, I see no real problem here. The rationale is quite simple. Users who doesn't know how to use text-based UI are also the ones that will almost always choose automatic partitioning. Others who like to use customized and manual partitioning are definitely advanced power users who don't need a GUI installer. So don't put 80% of development resources to do what only 20% people need. Please, if someone know how to work with the text-based debian installer, consider this approach. Let's set up a base system with the text-based one, and continue the remainng parts in a GUI installer after rebooting into X11. This is also what Windows does. Comments? It needs to be a base system + X11 Otherwise it won't work. The other problem is the enormous effort and work we need to put in such a project. (e.g. I can promise you lots and lots of bugs, and yes I created an installer for ZevenOS-Neptune on my own, so I have a little experience in this) My suggestions just promote the alternate install cd for everyone who can't use the graphical (live) installer. Maybe we can one day also use the debian- live-installer (which is basically the textinstaller from debian but able to run and install from a live system) as an alternative to ubiquity. The problem I see from switching from ubiquity to X would be that lubuntu will never become an official flavor of ubuntu. (even kubuntu uses ubiquity under the hood and only created a kde'ish interface for it) On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
It needs to be a base system + X11 Otherwise it won't work. The other problem is the enormous effort and work we need to put in such a project. (e.g. I can promise you lots and lots of bugs, and yes I created an installer for ZevenOS-Neptune on my own, so I have a little experience in this) Sorry I didn't meant to suggest adding more work by writing our own installer. My suggestions just promote the alternate install cd for everyone who can't use the graphical (live) installer. Maybe we can one day also use the debian- live-installer (which is basically the textinstaller from debian but able to run and install from a live system) as an alternative to ubiquity. The problem I see from switching from ubiquity to X would be that lubuntu will never become an official flavor of ubuntu. (even kubuntu uses ubiquity under the hood and only created a kde'ish interface for it) I think the idea of promoting the alternate might work, maybe make it an equal of the ubiquity installer in LubuntuLand instead of a poor cousin as far as website space and documentation? This would also mean that there is no extra work in making it happen but still provides all the information for those wanting a light weight installation. Regards, Jared Norris JP(Qual) BBehSc(Psych) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Following my tests on a pre-Beta ISO : Le dimanche 27 mars 2011 à 18:28 -0700, Jonathan Marsden a écrit : (1) Recent (post-Alpha 3) ISOs do not install from the Install Lubuntu menu item, it hangs in an X screen. I reproduce a similar bug, I arrive on a black screen, with a mouse cursor, without a desktop (pcmanfm). You can still launch a terminal with a right click on the desktop, and launch sudo ubiquity to launch the installer. I think I found the problem, but I'm not sure I'll be able to fix it for the Beta. (2) Lubuntu seems to need more that 256MB RAM to install now, which is bad. Hum, confirmed on a VM with only 256 Mo, ubiquity crashed. Maybe when the Install mode only will be fixed, we can lower the requirement. It's time to work on the alternate ISO generation :-/ Beta 1 still planned tomorrow, with probably a amd64 version along with the usual i386. Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
+1 alternate CD It´s suppose that the minimal memory for use Lubuntu is 192MB, but with 256MB to install it, it´s impossible to use it with a very old computer. My suggestion it´s to share a text install (alternate CD) by default. Anyway now Lubuntu isn't for beginners Linux user, so with a text install no body will be complicated. (My experience: the first Linux distro that i install [Ubuntu 7.04], i installed with the alternate CD, with my 256MB of ram memory [and Pentium 4 celeron] was impossible to install with GUI. Even if was my first install i could do it without a problem. The installations it´s intuitive. Sorry for my English. 2011/3/30 PCMan pcman...@gmail.com Text based installer + 1. The alternate CD with console-based UI is good enough IMO if it can have l10n user interface. Windows installer has long been text-based since windows 3.1 and it's still text-based in windows xp. Nobody complains of this so why should we insist that there should be a graphical one? Yes, if you boot from Windows xp installer cd on a machine without OS, you'll enter text-based installer. The GUI part is only available after the basic system is set up. Actually, we can do the same. The text-based installer (part I) only installs base system and core components and then reboot and automatically login X11 with a super user. After boot, a GUI-based installer (part II) is launched and continues the remaining parts. This can make things much easier. The only problem with this approach is, we cannot have a good GUI-based UI for partitioning. Windows XP handle this in text-mode, too. However, I see no real problem here. The rationale is quite simple. Users who doesn't know how to use text-based UI are also the ones that will almost always choose automatic partitioning. Others who like to use customized and manual partitioning are definitely advanced power users who don't need a GUI installer. So don't put 80% of development resources to do what only 20% people need. Please, if someone know how to work with the text-based debian installer, consider this approach. Let's set up a base system with the text-based one, and continue the remainng parts in a GUI installer after rebooting into X11. This is also what Windows does. Comments? On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Currently the alternate CD contains a nice text-based installer. What I suggested is to make a new installer based on the current one in alternate cd. However, the new installer only install the minimal base system + core utils + X11 + gdm + drivers to harddisk. Then, reboot into X11 and then we can launch a GUI installer from hard-disk to finish the remaining parts, which can partially based on ubiquity. This solves all the problems in an elegant way. 1. Text-based installer only does disk partitioning and install base system. So actually nothing needs to be done by the user manually except for disk partitioning. It's nearly automatic. 2. After rebooting, we boot from hard-disk into a clean X11 session with only GUI installer running. So we're not running the live cd and hence the memory usage can be ``minimal'', 128 MB I guess. The GUI installer is the only GUI programming running under X11 and we have no running desktop environment, so it can use all the RAM available. So we can write the GUI part without worrying about RAM usage. So developing the GUI installer can be much easier than developing ubiquity since memory usage is no more an issue. We can do what we want easily in it. Personally, I think this kind of installer is most suitable for our system since it has good efficiency, functionality, smaller memory footprint, and better reliability then running on live cd. 2011/3/31 Jorge Andrés Alvarez Oré winningl...@gmail.com: +1 alternate CD It´s suppose that the minimal memory for use Lubuntu is 192MB, but with 256MB to install it, it´s impossible to use it with a very old computer. My suggestion it´s to share a text install (alternate CD) by default. Anyway now Lubuntu isn't for beginners Linux user, so with a text install no body will be complicated. (My experience: the first Linux distro that i install [Ubuntu 7.04], i installed with the alternate CD, with my 256MB of ram memory [and Pentium 4 celeron] was impossible to install with GUI. Even if was my first install i could do it without a problem. The installations it´s intuitive. Sorry for my English. 2011/3/30 PCMan pcman...@gmail.com Text based installer + 1. The alternate CD with console-based UI is good enough IMO if it can have l10n user interface. Windows installer has long been text-based since windows 3.1 and it's still text-based in windows xp. Nobody complains of this so why should we insist that there should be a graphical one? Yes, if you boot from Windows xp installer cd on a machine without OS, you'll enter text-based installer. The GUI part is only available after the basic system is set up. Actually, we can do the same. The text-based installer (part I) only installs base system and core components and then reboot and automatically login X11 with a super user. After boot, a GUI-based installer (part II) is launched and continues the remaining parts. This can make things much easier. The only problem with this approach is, we cannot have a good GUI-based UI for partitioning. Windows XP handle this in text-mode, too. However, I see no real problem here. The rationale is quite simple. Users who doesn't know how to use text-based UI are also the ones that will almost always choose automatic partitioning. Others who like to use customized and manual partitioning are definitely advanced power users who don't need a GUI installer. So don't put 80% of development resources to do what only 20% people need. Please, if someone know how to work with the text-based debian installer, consider this approach. Let's set up a base system with the text-based one, and continue the remainng parts in a GUI installer after rebooting into X11. This is also what Windows does. Comments? On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset jpx...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. The other question this poses is, is it really necessary to have a graphical installer as the default for Lubuntu? Some time ago, there was a question on the mailing list What do you expect from Lubuntu and i think that a very important point is it will go where Ubuntu can't or something like that. A graphical installer is something that we do only one time (in theory) so if it's a little ugly (text) IMHO i don't see the problem. -- jpxsat ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Le lundi 28 mars 2011 à 21:48 -0600, matthew byers a écrit : Though I have not had time to properly test this out if it now takes more ram to install I think we need to address that soon. Lets not lose sight of what lubuntu is just because we are trying to please others. Lubuntus small footprint is a high quality of it so I would hate to see that go. Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. We used the same than Ubuntu, which have some advantages (ex: shared development) and disadvantages (ex: memory usage is not the priority of the ubiquity devs). Installer need some improvements (reducing memory usage, add option to install only lubuntu-core ...), but it's not the easiest part of Lubuntu / Ubuntu :) Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Should we consider putting it on the list of ubiquity devs to reduce memory footprint? Once we are an official derivative of Ubuntu we might have a better foot to stand on and ask for these things. But it would even benefit Ubuntu I guess. Lower footprint would speed up installation as well? Just a thought of course. With metta, Chris On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 21:15, Julien Lavergne gi...@ubuntu.com wrote: Le lundi 28 mars 2011 à 21:48 -0600, matthew byers a écrit : Though I have not had time to properly test this out if it now takes more ram to install I think we need to address that soon. Lets not lose sight of what lubuntu is just because we are trying to please others. Lubuntus small footprint is a high quality of it so I would hate to see that go. Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to reduce the memory footprint of the installer for 11.04. We used the same than Ubuntu, which have some advantages (ex: shared development) and disadvantages (ex: memory usage is not the priority of the ubiquity devs). Installer need some improvements (reducing memory usage, add option to install only lubuntu-core ...), but it's not the easiest part of Lubuntu / Ubuntu :) Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Any major must fix before Beta issues left in Lubuntu?
Le dimanche 27 mars 2011 à 18:28 -0700, Jonathan Marsden a écrit : Some sort of punch list of the (hopefully few) remaining serious issues we need to address before releasing Lubuntu 11.04 Beta1 would be really good to have. I don't feel qualified to create it... I'm not aware of any blocking issues for Beta 1. It still needs some polishing, but it can be done after the Beta Freeze. Of course, if anyone is aware of any annoying bugs, feel free to ping the mailing list. I'll try to start testing Beta ISO tomorrow, and see if any of the issues you mention are reproductible here. Regards, Julien Lavergne ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop Post to : lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
