If I recall it's also the highest latitude in the Lower 48.
Craig
The town of Angle Inlet, Minn. has that title. It is on a peninsula in Lake
of the Woods that is north of the Canadian border and can only be reached by
land by going through Canada. Being a bit of a geography buff I'll give
Bill,
Given that some old lutes were made of materials like ivory I can see no
reason that a graphite resin couldn't make a lute bowl that would sound
quite well - but somehow the aesthetics don't appeal to me. Yet given the
abilities of the space age types to concoct almost any internal
Not knowing that there were specific cloths for lutenists, and as a
beginner, I noticed lutenists using the friction of a cloth. I went to an
auto parts supplier and bought a chamois leather for about ten bucks. There
is both synthetic and real chammy cloths, they are used to dry a car after
Marion,
I do like the color coding aspect of the graphite, it appeals to my love of
multiple function g. As to the methods I'd add a bit to number 3. I've
made relatively wide and shallow channels at the peg end of my nut ( that
avoids a sharp edge as the string goes to the peg - important on my
Etymology of FLUTE:
First recorded in Provençal, as FLAUT,
And in English the flute player is yet called a flautist.
Engl. flute Provenc. fleute Lat. flatus flare (blow, breathe).
And I do hope there is no reflection on the sound of the flute - flatus
being the medical term for an
A small addendum to Sean's comment on round grooves. A hobby shop or a
hardware store should have sets of the small Swedish pattern files. One of
those is a tapered round (or rat tail), and the end of that is quite small
and good for rounding grooves. You don't need an expensive set as the nut
I agree with you all, and I take a positive stand on both sides of the
issue. I'm quite comfortable singing (and playing) the bawdy ballads of the
lusty Scots of the age parallel to the European Renaissance, but I don't
think I'd be likely to sing a lewd song. Is there a fine line, of course
there
Matt,
You have hit the nail on the head. There has been a rewriting of history in
recent decades by the pan-Arabists and the Islamists. And there was a
rewriting of history many years ago by the Western historians. And there are
those who would demonize a culture and a people for the devastation
I just deleted the last several days of messages after glancing at a few.
This is not to say that politics and opinions shouldn't be shared among us.
Arto and I have been in an off list conversation in which we disagree, but
respect each other's opinions. Once the non lute topic has been opened it
Without knowledge of the composer (Bruger) I can't decide whether
Judenkoenig would apply to Jesus, Herod or the future Messiah. Or just
perhaps to a local mythology. Die Erlenkoenig was real to some, myth to
others. Words can be loaded with unintentional meaning - and the Nazis were
specialists
. On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:28:14 -0400, Roman Turovsky
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Luthiers avoid working on other luthiers' instruments, as a rule.
Really ? :)
Marcello
Absolutely Marcello, any luthier asked to repair a Venere would tell the
customer to take it to Venere, although I think I'd
Herbert,
I can't answer your question with regard to lute experience, but I think you
would find that once the strings were stable in a range of pitch you could
up-tune or down-tune 100 cents and have the string remain stable. Whether
the lute tuning would remain stable is another question, what
Craig,
You aren't over your head here, what you say is correct (I was building
computers long before most of you were playing lutes). But this particular
bounce message doesn't look good. You are right that we on the list often
send duplicate messages by using reply all - one through the lute
I can't speak of the old lutenists, but there were many harpers of medieval
and renaissance times who were blind. Although it is well past the
renaissance era the Belfast Harp Festival of 1792 listed 10 harpers (nine
men and one woman). Six of them are listed as blind. The prolific composer
for
Dana says it well, there are many old pictures of lutenists with straps, but
I'd be careful to ensure the bridge end of the body can handle it. This is
gratuitous, I admit, but there is another purpose. I've been playing my
flat back, which is a thicker body, with a strap for some time - in my one
Wow, motion and motor - and time and space - and memory. How basic can you
get.
Both of you spend a lot of words and speculation on the forms of memory and
analysis. But the process is not one or another, it is a combination. Do I
memorize which finger goes to which fret, or do I memorize the
Herbert,
As an inveterate jig builder I agree with the other answers. But will add
my own. If you are dealing with plain old pine stud you don't need a sharp
draw knife (which costs money), a good sharp hunting knife or such will
allow you to whittle it to a gross size (the wood isn't hard). Then
As one who has experienced all sorts of memory over 70 years I'll say that
Ed's analysis is technically correct (although I'd disagree with the muscle
memory being the most dangerous, it has saved my butt a number of times on
the ski slope - but an aerial recovery from an unseen bump isn't the
Howard,
I don't know whether to agree or disagree, it is a matter of interpretation.
Duke Ellington once said, There are two kinds of music - good music
and bad
music.
Ellington, who died in 1974, is indeed universally credited with that
remark, proving that inane comments about music
OK all, I'm going to make a defense of another lute. I considered the EMS
lute kit, which I think at the time would have cost me about $800 (more now
with the exchange rates), and asked some advice. The EMS kit was well
recommended, but involved a lot of work. I chose to buy the Musikits flat
beginning of a word. In txt-format, Greek characters are not possible,
so the spiritus has to be transcribed, and there you are: halieutika,
fishing tools.
Well said Mathias,
Thank you. I confess that my studies of the Greek language were many years
ago, so I didn't have the word for that
With many of you I have difficulty finding the familiar Greek LEUTIKA as
my Greek dictionary uses Greek characters. Is this lambda-epsilon
(eta)-upsilon-tau-iota-kappa-alpha?. And what is the HA, there is no h as
a character. Is a form I don't know of the English article the (Gr. o,
oi, etc.). My
Alain,
Of course the MIDI doesn't duplicate the exact sound of the strings, but is
that Ronde playable on a large lute (a theorbo or whatever). It sounds as if
the range would require a harpsichord.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Roman Turovsky
Yes as a matter of fact Weiss wrote a rather unknown suite Dresden # 69
otherwise known as Tip Toe Threw The Tulips in D minor.
Michael, is this real or a play on Tiny Tim and his ukelele? And if it is
real is the melody similar?
Best, Jon
To get on or off this list see list
Mat,
I must both agree and disagree.
Who cares as to the origins of such a melody, it can stand on its own.
well, I was under the impression it was clear that it cannot. Those two
Green Sleeves :) I named are trebles to certain grounds. Neither stands
on its own.
I'm afraid I know only
Who cares as to the origins of such a melody, it can stand on its own. (And
can be smaltzy on its own, it has had that same fate as the melody of Danny
Boy/Londonderry Air in that it can be played with intrinsic melodic beauty,
or can be played to the groundlings). Who cares is too strong, one
Hear, hear Dr. Marion,
In my opinion how it could be used is more important than what you call it.
Depending on how you tune a six-course instrument, it could function as
a guitar, requinto (actually a requinto lute in this case), renaissance
lute,
a laud, or a mandolino lombardo ottavo.
I
Even more. I think ET is a musical embodiment of same
egalitarian/republican
idea that was perpetrated on the civilization by the secret cabal of
Rosicrucians and Illuminati, and MT embodies submission to despotism and
status quo. All of this fits nicely into Platonic connection between
Arto,
I should stay out of this, but I'll stick my neck out having only seen your
message and the quote from RT (those included below).
To me there is only one reason for ET, and that is the chromatic instruments
with fixed strings (piano, harp, etc.), and the need to play them in
different
Eugene,
A minor clarification: Prunus is the generic name of cherries and plums,
e.g., Prunus serotina (the only North American species of importance as a
timber producer) is the wild black cherry, Prunus being the genus and
serotina the specific epithet. I believe a number of European
Or walrus-tusk, referred in medieval Russian as fish-tooth, a luxury
cabinetmaking material of the era.
RT
The question was on bone, walrus tusk is an ivory - just as elephant tusk.
The scrimshaw artists of the whaling ships used mainly whale bones and many
were quite large, but sometimes the
The fellow I got it from Sterling Price claims if you rest your LF
there
you become possessed.
Michael Thames
Possessed by what. I don't mind if I'm possessed by the instrument, I'm
already that. And I'm possessed by my cat, as is anyone with a cat. But I'm
not sure if I'd want to play it
Somehow in the raucous banter on the thread my original question got lost,
except for Tony as quoted below.
As Jon said, the modern choice of the harder material for the disposable
bit
does seem odd. It also seems odd that the efforts made at the time being
directed towards lightness in the
A number of replies on this thread, and I thank you gentlemen. I'll try to
come back to all in this one message.
Yup, it is prunus - I goofed. And I used the plural genera instead of
genus. I still don't remember the classifications of taxonomy, but when
one comes to wood one needs only genus and
Michael,
You mention Plum for pegs, I bit the bullet before starting my from
scratch lute and spent the money for David van Edwards CD course. He has a
rather good discussion of the various woods, and nicely adds the North
American available equivalents as well as he can assess them. He suggested
Peter,
With David I point out that silica (SiO2) is the oxide of the element
silicon, and add that the silicon chips of Silicon Valley aren't actually
pure silicon (in the late '40s my father, a researcher in solid state
physics at Bell Labs, sent out an internal memo speculating on the
OK, I've read all the messages in the thread and yet have a confusion. A
confusion about what is desirable. (Note my earlier comment on the
intentionally wearable nylon gear in the speedometer).
Why would a luthier want to have the inevitable wear between peg and peg
holes be either random or in
David,
We've had honey and tar, and thoughts from afar,
We've had staff, tabulation and forms of notation,
The RB bass hasn't yet shown its face,
And thats well as it has no relation.
Hell's bells, the specific continuo for a specific piece, to be performed
HIP might require a specific
Dana,
Very informative Dana, thank you. BTW, I'm not sure why I said that the
pegbox and the peg wouldn't grab if they were the same material. I was
thinking of wood, and as that is (more or less, depending on the wood)
hygroscopic then both pegbox and peg will swell and and shrink under the
same
Goran,
What happened to Afternoon Delight? g.
Best, Jon
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
just the figures and omit the bass. But in any case the bass part
has
to be played within the group by somebody.
Best wishes
Thomas
Am Sonntag, 6. März 2005 04:55 schrieb Jon Murphy:
Alright, I confess again to a lack of knowledge. Can someone define
continuo? My musical dictionary defines
Alright, I confess again to a lack of knowledge. Can someone define
continuo? My musical dictionary defines it as an abbreviation for basso
continuo (see figured bass). I don't go by dictionarys, but it would seem
that the term means the playing of a polyphonic line to complement the
melody,
Tim,
By now you know that I'm an inveterate tinkerer, and have made some on the
list think I'm a bit off base. But I agree with the comments on friction and
Delrin. Guitar tuning machines would be a good solution for the lute, and
shouldn't affect the sound. But I don't think I'll use them. I may
Just to pass on a moment of joy. Tonight I turned a short (6cm shaft) test
peg from cocobolo. (The blocks I was able to get are 15 long, so there is a
3 wastage that I'm using for practice). I opened a beer, turned on the TV,
and sat with my home made shaper grinding away. As I got the rough peg
Ed, I'll leave the humidity for instruments to others, but will comment on
the electronics (as an old hardware designer). Almost everything electronic
nowadays is made with integrated circuits in sealed chips mounted on circuit
board with connecting lands that are also sealed. The solder points
Tim,
I concur your solution, you may remember that I said you might be pressing
too hard in the shaver. The too much wood is the correlary of the
pressing too hard. Come to think of it, I've had the same problem with an
electric pencil sharpener - do it too fast and the pencil comes out uneven.
interesting, I am griinding away my patrience making one from 3/16
in flat-
ground tool steel stock. you even get mounting holes your way, perhaps
even
slotted holes, I have to file those (yet).
Yup, three in/out slots and two left/right slots.
difference in lathes, mine is an
Craig,
Although this book doesn't deal with typesetting specifically you might want
to look at it. It has a large number of facsimiles of both type set and hand
written music from the 15th and 16th centuries. The book is titled Composers
at work, The Craft of Musical Composition 1450-1600. The
Dana and Timothy,
I haven't gotten my lute to the point of needing pegs, but being one who
likes to change gears I've gotten into the peg making while I'm still
finishing the mold. Tim, you know I bought David v.E's course on your
advice. I've made myself a shaver, partly because they are so
Chris,
I think you have the problem nailed, polyphony had a great influence in the
development of the scale. I realize that I neglected the hexachord scale in
my previous message, as I neglected the tetrachord scale. But my statement
of the octave was correct. The doubling or halving of a
Mathias,
well, yes, it does. I, for one, when I play renaissance music, enjoy
listening to ascending and descending lines that follow the habits of
their respective modes. It's fun and it makes that music so much more
interesting to me.
You have lost me here, perhaps it is my lack of formal
I'm with Chris on this one. Give Herb a break, if he tried to make the first
pass all things to all musicians he'd never finish it (no reflection on your
programming skills Herb, I quote what we used to call Von Neumann's Law in
the early computer business - any system, no matter its percent
Marion,
I'll make one last try at what I was saying. I was not speaking of
eliminating tabulature or staff notation - or any other way of passing music
from one person to another. I'll have to be more boring than usual and
mention that I spent a long time in data communication - and still have an
Arto,
I'll be on the topic in another letter, this is just to answer your
parenthetical question about your use of the phrase red herring. You used
it correctly, it implies a distraction. But you might be interested in the
origin of the phrase, a phrase now considered to be standard. It was an
Alain,
Well said, I think (?).
You say that the receivers of Art aren't just the judges (most of them
self proclaimed), but despite that it is too often that they are the
definers of Art. W.S. Gilbert based his operetta Patience on that. (If
this young man can think such thoughts that are far
OK, I'll answer (all included to keep it together).
Find me the lutenist, or the double strung harpist, who
can tune all his strings absolutely to the same frequency
I dunno about that, but, there are these people one hires to tune ones
piano, they
seem able to do a pretty good job, and
I forward this as it seems to have been sent just to me, but intended for
the list.
JWM
- Original Message -
From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: Nylgut
Bruno,
I have found that Nygut has
Bruno,
I can't speak to the nuances of sound between the several materials - I'll
leave that to those who have tried them all.
But physically nylgut is closer to gut than to nylon in the selection of the
guage. Oliver Wadsworth's StringCalc32 (which I downloaded as freeware, but
I don't remember
Yup, completely different wrist position. I can't speak to the lute, as I'm
too new (but I'm not sure I could find a use for a thumb stop except for an
unusual open chord, or sequence. But the painting you direct us to could
also be a soft thumb as the player turns to his fingers on the first
Alain and Thomas,
I promised to read Alain's long message, it is printed but I spent all of
today driving to a speciality wood supplier to get what I needed for the
proper lute I'm making (to replace the flat back I've learned on). And I've
only scanned Thomas' message.
There is a history, going
Brlute,
Vance and demery have almost said it all. Demery speaks of two things, the
imperfections of the strings and the lighter string tension. They are two
sides of the same question. Early strings didn't have the strength of modern
ones (in part due to the imperfections - the weakest link in
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Music Stands
Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
But I'm sure that I've seen in a scholarly account that point made. The
ability for the musicians to have their own copy of the music
I show my plebian side, as an ex-hockey player from the days before Zamboni
I find a Zamboni to be a modern invention that saves the players having to
come out and shovel the ice between periods. Wish we had one in my day.
Best, Jon
To get on or off this list see list information at
Donatella and Alain,
I have a small nit to pick, as a former programmer who is an Ivy League
graduate - and hopefully not dull. The Ivy League isn't the genesis of
programmers who don't know the application (Gates dropped out). Nor is it
really the home of techies. It is more likely that the
Had some system problems, just testing. No answer needed.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Ed and Ed,
I concur. I don't have the time in grade on the lute to speak of string
life, but I do have other instruments. My 26 string double strung harp (52
strings in toto) was first tuned up about three years ago with nylon
strings. I've had to change some strings one or more times (I keep a
James,
It seems ironic for people who think gut has the best sound, to
sacrifice
that sound on the chanterelle, where it probably has the most noticeable
effect... It almost makes more sense (unless you can afford to buy all
gut strings)
to have nylgut or nylon (which can literally last
Caroline, and Timothy,
I wonder at the concern for strings from rank beginners (as I am also). The
lute is a subtle instrument, and I'm learning that in my play. But I have a
very good ear for tone and pitch and have had to use nylon fishing line for
my chanterelle to tune it up to g' without
Thomas,
For once I was too brief - I thought I'd mentioned the surviving fixed pitch
instruments, but I see I didn't (oops, that was what I meant by comparative
working). As to the carry I'd say it was based less on hearing habits
than actual auditory phenomena. We know that low frequencies
Thomas,
As David said, high tension = thick string, given a pitch. But I yet
question the pitches involved. We are all aware of the rather large
differences between the a's in different systems - but somehow we have an
actual frequency for them. I'm sure there is good evidence for the actual
Dear Martin,
Like you I don't knot the strings at the peg, but in 55 years of stringing
guitars I've found that back looping the string around the peg puts a bit
of friction on it without having a full tension crossover that can cut a
string. By back looping I mean bringing the bitter end
Rob,
Widening a hole is easy, narrowing it is tough. I note that your email
domain is rmguitar. If your background is guitar you should realize that the
strings pass over a saddle on your guitar, but go directly from the bridge
hole on your lute. The pull on the lute string (with the normal knot)
Craig,
Martin,
PVF stands for polyvinyl fluoride. I seem to remember that it is
actually polyvinyl carbon floride but I'm not certain.
I'm a bit confused myself, but let me quote from Mimmo Peruffo's U.S Patent
for Nylgut (not named as such in the patent, it is Polybutylene
Terephthalat as
Alain,
I agree with you entirely, although I always have to go back to my music
dictionary to look up continuo (abbeviation for basso continuo, a notation
of numbers for the intervals above the bass for accompanyment).
It may not be of help to your project but may I suggest a book that shows a
Alain,
Thank you, although I'll have to drop the 10 course back to the 7 course.
But I have the harp to try the originals. And I'm sure you are aware that
there is no original of O'Carolan - he was blind and didn't write down any
of his music. I've seen a number of versions of the same song, as
I answer Gernot, and write to all.
Two posters? Conveniently as the non lute topic was so long I reset my
email list to subject so I could read the entire thread in sequence. Wow,
there next to each other were exact duplicate messages from Rosinfiorino and
Carlos Flores. The last time I connected
Arto, and all,
I think we have been conned, as I mentioned in my message to Gernot. And I
am embarrassed that I answered. But I confess to playing a number of
instruments and being open to others. What the hell is a LONG VIBRATING
TONE.
To my mind it is a very large bell in a steeple! Not
Oh Caroline, how can you deny the title. I love it. But in order to bestow
it I need more facts. A dowager is an inhertor, so the widow of the Emporor
is the Dowager Empress. Although that is unusual, as another line normally
takes over and denies the heiress.
Now then, dowager duchess would work
I suppose some will want to check the sarmaticae with a Geiger counter.
RT
No, geiger counters only check the random, but very regular, emissions from
radioactively decaying material. One would hope that the wonderful rhythms
of music won't decay in our lifetimes. Radioactive decay is an aspect
I can agree with the beauty of the bass, and I'm not sure how R. got the
impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and
I'm not sure what that means). One can go as long as one wants on fretted
courses, just make a longer neck and more frets - and if your arm is too
Oh my, Daniel, I love it.
A brief lesson in thermoplastics, a description of carbon strings which I
knew little of, and of the PBT (nylgut), as well as the contrast to gut.
Thanks for the posting.
Best, Jon
For the general edification, I have posted Mimmo's US patent for the
manufacture of
Taco,
I read Alfonso's message differently than you did. And seeing your message I
can understand why. Alfonso didn't make it clear as to whether he was asking
for list members to evaluate their lutes (as you read it), or to introduce
themselves by introducing which of the various instrument
Tony,
I would expect that you will get some foolish messages on this (to be played
as Weisskiki, or whatever). But there are many instruments in the world -
and there have been many fine composers. An arrangement may be an
orchestration of a simpler piece, or it may be taking an orchestral score
Bill
with nylgut, however, my charango sounds like a lute
or ( ... steady ... ) what i imagine a small vihuela
would sound like, had one survived.
Glad to hear that. I'm anxiously awaiting the nylgut strings I've ordered
for my charango that I've tuned as in the Skene Mandora Book. The
Tim,
Are you sure Nylgut is still nylon? And I don't quarrel here. As I
understand it Nylgut is a proprietary product of Aquila (Italy?). And as
Nylon is a patented formulation of DuPont the Nylgut must be a different
formulation.
The question becomes whether Aquila has found a way to integrate
Howdy gents,
I am often tendentious, but I claim to not be as much so as some. I see that
I have 847 messages to read on the Lute List (going back a while). I'm going
to erase them all. Many are from RT about new entries to his web site, I
like the site and the music - but I already have the home
Gents,
On the same ebay link as the lute in question there are three Celtic harps
(the link was in German, but I think I can read it). They may or may not be
very fine harps (and they are fully levered, as best I can see). But they
are quite fully priced (unless my mental conversion of Euro's to
Matt, thanks - you have just made my point.
To coin a phrase: One man's dora' may be another man's lino. My
introduction to the mandora came from the Ronn McFarlane Scot's Lute book.
Most of his pieces are from the Straloch Lute Book (1627-29) and the
Rowallen Lute Book (c. 1620). But there are
Carlos,
I agree entirely - I misspoke. Music is defined within one's self. My intent
was merely to describe the transmission process from an external source, and
it was triggered by R's tongue in cheek speculation on conical strings. I
should have said that the ear defines what we physically
Roman, all is forgiven. I love this piece (I think, I just made a quick shot
at playing the first six bars).
For the REALLY adventurous:
a 7-course intabulation of a folk-song that uses parallel 5ths-
Sarmatica 16 at
http://polyhymnion.org/torban/torban4.html
Enjoy,
RT
I couldn't resist
Vance,
I'm with you, I just mentioned the banjo finger picks as I know of them
(tried 'em, hate 'em). But I wonder at what you say of the lute - I thought
(from previous messages when I first joined the list) that lute players not
only didn't use fingernails but also wanted soft flesh on their
Roman, again we meet in agreement. My bible of historical instruments lists
the mandocello, but not a mandoloncello. I think you are right about which
is corrupted. The violoncello is a different family, and the forming word is
violin (as contrasted to viol - as in viola da gamba, a fretted
- Original Message -
From: Charles Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED];
lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 5:02 AM
Subject: RE: Instrument Sounding
Dear Jon,
I think the word 'loo' is a corruption of 'l'eau
Thomas,
if you take a look at a facsimile of medieval music you'll see it has
something of a translation but usually is also a setting (transformation)
into our (modern) musical language.
That was sort of what I expected, after reading your question in context. In
that case you might want to
I must not have been clear in what I said.
27N isn't that too thin? and wouldn't it be a little loose? (unless you
want your 63 cm lute tuned to G..?)
My question on 27 Newtons had to do with my 36cm charango (that I'm using as
a mandora/vihuela). I'm afraid I confused the issue by mentioning
Subject: Re: Tension and vibrating length
Jon Murphy wrote:
... I've noted before that my 63.5 lute is happy with about 35 N on the
chanterelle (disregarding the pitch, other factors there) - whereas the 36
instrument I'm working with is recommended to be 27N...
Hi Jon,
I find that very
I'll try again, as I'm yet trying to string that charandora. I am looking
for opinions. I repeat, the O.W. (Aquila) string calculator recommends
tensions in Newtons that vary for the same pitch depending on the VL. (This
already takes into effect the guage, as that is the resultant. I've noted
Advice please,
I am trying to string my charango (36cm VL) as a mandola (Ronn's on his CD
was 30cm). I'm quite capable of doing it, and in fact have it strung rather
well from spare lute and harp strings. And as you all know by now I'm
working on combining the empirics and theories of strings to
Count me in the one to three weeks of stubble group, which seems neither
here
nor there. BTW what number and length of whiskers constitutes a beard?
A beard is not a matter of number or length, it is an aesthetic question.
Does it have a consistancy, or has it bald spots (with no political
Stewart, a very well done and nice compendium of the various comments.
But I reserve the right to make just this night's comments on the thread, as
I've been off line a couple of days. Then I accept your choice (and concur
with it) to end the thread.
Then again I don't have to reserve the right,
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