I am reminded of an old joke. The searcher for truth is in search of the
ultimate guru. He travels to India and Napal, he works his way through the
villages, climbing ever higher into the Himalayas. He follows every lead in
his search. After years of trekking, and always uphill, he finally comes to
Michael,
> Ed are you basing your theory on iconographical evidence? If so, Baron
> very clearly states to play half way between the rose and the bridge, at
> least for the German style. I think with less tension one could risk the
> clashing of courses, when played with any forcefulness, some t
On Jul 23, 2005, at 5:51 AM, Edward Martin wrote:
> In order to make this situation (playing with technique shown on
> icongraphical sources) work, one needs a light tension. With heavier
> tension played very close to the bridge, one gets a brittle sound.
> But,.
> with slack strings, the res
h any forcefulness, something that would
be
needed in 1750.
MT
- Original Message -
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Greg M. Silverman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jon Murphy" <[EMAI
rses, when played with any forcefulness, some that would be
needed in 1750.
MT
- Original Message -
From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Greg M. Silverman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Jon Murph
Michael,
The fingers seen in most paintings of baroque lutenists are not a 90 degree
angle, but not as soft an angle as for thumb under technique. You are
correct, in that the thumb is seen protruding towards the rose, and that is
a position seldom seen in our times. Toyohiko Satoh has change
Hi to all,
As a guitarist who sometimes cuts off his nails to play lute, I thought
I'd throw in my opinions regarding the recent discussion about nails, speed,
etc.
I find when I've played guitar with no nails that I can play most things
still pretty well, and the sound of course is very w
Michael Thames wrote:
>> Nails give speed? What would the physical principle >involved be? IIRC,
>> there is a fairly well-known flamenco player that does >NOT have nails,
>> but does have the speed (I'll have to dig around to find >out who this
>> was, but I remember David Schramm mentioning him
whether on
> gut or nylon one gets a very thin tone. Perhaps the trend in the early
> 1600's was towards a thin percussive tone?
> MT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Greg M. Silverman" <
L PROTECTED]>; "Mathias RXsel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute
net"
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
> Michael,
>
>> I couldn't tell you the physical principles involved. Maybe it has to
> do
>> with fricti
Michael,
> I couldn't tell you the physical principles involved. Maybe it has to
do
> with friction and mass, and the fact they play with rest stroke.
>All I can say is it true! and Paco plays 10 times as fast as
any
> of the guys you mentioned, and plays with nails... I know this
Festival this
weekend. Got to switch gears.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute net"
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
> Hi Jon,
>
> the aside remark *notwithstanding HIP*
EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mathias RXsel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute
net"
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
> Michael Thames wrote:
>
>> "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTE
Michael Thames wrote:
> "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>
>
>>>I haven't heard anyone play
>>>thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose
>>>technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to
>>>
>>>
>>imim
>>
>>
>
>
ut, sound rather
un- lute like after listening to Odette.
Michael
- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mathias RXsel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute net"
Sent: Tuesday, Ju
Wow,
What a description, and what a lot of BS (with all due respect to the
writers). I may be a beginner, but I play a few other stringed instruments.
I love the feel and sound of "thumb under" when playing runs, it duplicates
the feel of the pick that was the original form of lute playing (even i
Hi Mathias, see my comments in context below ...
--- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > I haven't heard anyone play
> > thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose
> > technique is not that different from
"Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> I haven't heard anyone play
> thumb-under faster than top rate classical or flamenco guitarists whose
> technique is not that different from thumb-out, especially in regards to imim.
that may be so, but I'm an _average_ lutenist, you see, and I c
BTW, does anyone yet know if/when Hopkinson Smith is giving his masterclass at
the lsa convention? It's really maddening to not have a schedule posted
somewhere, especially for us lsa members! Ok, here are some more thoughts ...
The only quip I would note is that I'm not sure about the difference
Hi Jon,
the aside remark *notwithstanding HIP* was actually supposed to help
make it out of the academic ghetto. I'm wondering which technical demand
leads to changing the right hand posture. You may call *thumb in* a
misnomer, but I use this name to make sure you can recognize what I'm
talking ab
Matt,
> interesting point. What would it be, notwithstanding HIP, that requires
> either thumb in or thumb out?
I humbly suggest that the question is moot. I think thumb in is a misnomer.
Look at the shape of your hand. I prefer to think of it as having the thumb
as a base point. When making quic
I find that sometimes I do
something unconsciously that makes the piece proceed musically. Technique
(in my experience on other instruments) is a basis, music is built by
improvising on sound technique.
Best, Jon
- Original Message -
From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23 PM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:30 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
> Dear Ed and Arne,
>
> There are two sets of instructions in that manuscript
> (London, BL, Ms.Sloane 1021),
Thoughtful observations.
To get on or off this list see list info
On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:48 AM, Christopher Schaub wrote:
> I wonder if Paul O'Dette's playing is evolving as well.
He's not standing still.
He was playing thumb out in the early 70s, so I guess he could play
that way now anytime he wanted.
cheers,
To get on or off this list see list informa
On Jul 19, 2005, at 12:30 AM, Arthur Ness wrote:
> Dear Ed and Arne,
>
> There are two sets of instructions in that manuscript
> (London, BL, Ms.Sloane 1021),
Thoughtful observations.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
So I see no reason to doubt what the writer
> of the treatise says. But we don't know if JD played
> thumb forward from the beginning. But I wouldn't
> dismiss his having changed. There was too much at
> stake.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Ed Durbro
n to doubt what the writer
of the treatise says. But we don't know if JD played
thumb forward from the beginning. But I wouldn't
dismiss his having changed. There was too much at
stake.
- Original Message -
From: Ed Durbrow
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, July 17,
At 02:51 18-07-2005 +0900, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>
>On Jul 17, 2005, at 11:26 PM, Michael Thames wrote:
>
>> When Paul Odette was here at UNM I asked him if Dowland had changed
>> his
>> technique to thumb out. Paul said, that he saw nothing in Dowlands
>> music, that would merit a change to thum
On Jul 17, 2005, at 11:26 PM, Michael Thames wrote:
> When Paul Odette was here at UNM I asked him if Dowland had changed
> his
> technique to thumb out. Paul said, that he saw nothing in Dowlands
> music, that would merit a change to thumb out. He then played Lady
> Clifton's
> Spirit, a
"Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Paul is, as usual, quite right: nothing in Dowland's music
> requires the thumb to be outside the fingers. Nothing in it requires the
> thumb to be inside the fingers either.
interesting point. What would it be, notwithstanding HIP, that requires
eit
Michael Thames wrote:
> When Paul Odette was here at UNM I asked him if Dowland had changed his
> technique to thumb out. Paul said, that he saw nothing in Dowlands
> music, that would merit a change to thumb out. He then played Lady Clifton's
> Spirit, and demonstrated he used both alternatin
es to master in one life time.
Michael Thames
- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Schaub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute net"
Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Neceffarie obferuations
>I was just re-reading these snippets the last f
I was just re-reading these snippets the last few days so I it was wonderful to
find that others were on a similar wavelength. I was reading the Dowland and
Stobaus quotes to justify my swithching to mostly thumb-out. I highly recommend
Paul Beier's article in the Lute Society of America Journal (v
Michael Thames wrote:
> Is Dowland suggesting thumb out, rather than thumb under?
Yes.
It comes up pretty often here. There's a remark in Johann Stobaeus'
manuscript that Dowland changed from thumb-in to thumb-out in mid-career.
For newbies, here's a more complete quote from Dowland:
"...s
In Dowland's observations in a varietie of LVTE - lessons, he instructs ( for
the right hand) " to stretch your thumb with all the force you can" and
... the thumb under the other fingers, which though it be nothing so
elegant, yet to them it will be more easy.
Is Dowland suggesting thu
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