[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

6 course spanish guitar wound strings: yes, there is a spanish source that is 
Juan Vargas Y Guzman of 1773  that mentioned that this instrument has  wound 
strings in the 4th, 5th and 6th courses (i.e. entorchados). It is not sauid 
that are silk wound but we are in 1773, when the silk strings were well 
introduced on the 6 course mandolin, on the 5 course/5 single string guitar, on 
the very recent 6 string guitar. It is written that the tickness of the 4th is  
2/3 thick than  the 2nd that it is plain gut. The 3rd has the same gauge of a 
violin 2nd (in those times around .90-95 mm gauge)
Two years ago I had the chance to take the measures of a big batch of survived 
original strings for 6 course Paget guitar inside a newspaper  dated 1812 in 
Genevre: the 3rd  ranged form .91 up to .97 mm while the 4,5,6 were silk wound 
strings. Well, I  have done a replica of these wound strings: the 5 and 6th are 
exaclty the ones for the 4,5th basses of 6 string guitar.
The same strings 4 and 5 were perfexct for a Niggel Gallichion like 5th and 
6th. The tension was around 3.6 Kg at 415 Hz pitch standard. 
This is my experience. In the painting of the link I sent you and in the list  
strings 5 and 6 are wound ansds with octaves. Silk wound I think
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 Per conto di Martyn Hodgson
Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 13:10
A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche 
; Wayne Lute ; Wayne Cripps 

Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

   Ah - interpolation in bold doesn't seem to work here so I'll cut and
   paste below.
   (To Wayne - I think you've explained this before so excuse me for being
   a bit dim: but can't the original paragraph spacings and even font
   types be preserved in these threads? - it makes it so much easier to
   converse)
   MP: why between 1670  were mentioned gut wound strings only /
 MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to
 plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into
   the
 eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic
   basses,
 etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of
 wire required for thin double strung courses may have
 also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The
 madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses.
   MP The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example:  it employed silk
   wound strings /
 Indeed, from when? Do we know? I've assumed wound basses they came in
 with the Spanish sixth course around 1760/70 but have no direct
 evidence for such an date./
   MH Mace mentions the Dm tuning and even gives a set of Lessons in it MM
 181-186
   Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book./
 MH I wonder too - but perhaps Playford was following a new technology
   only
 recently imported from Europe? The Commonwealth etc reduced many
 continental links until just after the Interregnum. The St Colombe
   use
 of viol wound also seems fairly persuasive.
 MH Yes, I agree the links between late mandora and late 5 eighteenth
 century 5/6 course guitars suggests a degree of interchange of
 knowledge/experience by players (S Moliotor's notes about some
   Viennese
 mandora player stringing his instrument with single strings are
 particularly compelling).
   However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having
   more historical evidences/
 MH Yes - I again agree

   On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:47:30 GMT, Martyn Hodgson
wrote:
 And thank you too Mimmo,
 I'll interpolate my responses in bold italic below if I may
 regards
 Martyn
 On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 11:05:18 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde
 Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:
 Grazie Martyn,
 However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the
 evidence of the use of silk wound strings
   Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder:  why between 1670
 were mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german
 lutes -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me-
   then
 for 5 course guitar)?
 MH: I believe lutenists (then as now) preferred something closer to
 plain (high twist) gut than a robust overwound sound even well into
   the
 eighteenth century (too much 'zing' and carry over of diatonic
   basses,
 etc otherwise) and, of course, the relatively very thin diameter of
 wire required for thin double strung courses may have
 also precluded low tension lute basses to some extent. The
 madora/gallichon does not have this register of basses.
 Close or open wound types does not matter now.
 Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive
 tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute
 

[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

   Grazie Martyn,

   However I have the necessity to have historical evidences about the
   evidence of the use of silk wound strings


   Yes; silk wound strings are louder so I wonder:  why between 1670 were
   mentioned gut wound strings only (on d minor 11 course german lutes
   -see the 1715 source and others recently discovererd by me- then for 5
   course guitar)?

   Close or open wound types does not matter now.


   Maybe there is a technical explanation: I have done very extensive
   tests with silk wound strings for the 11 and 13 course d minor lute
   basses: they does not work properly (I have not space here to explain
   why, but there are  strong both acoustical and technical problems that
   cannot be solved) while they work in excellent way in different
   situations, expecially if there are single strings and/or if the
   tension has a certain higher level like I thinks that it was in use on
   these kind of instruments (no historical evidences, just my opinion
   having seen the presence of fan bracing, the thick soundboards on some
   surviving in strument and the description of the loud bass sonority
   found in old sources).  The 6 course spanish guitar is a good example:
   it employed silk wound strings


   Mace is the best source ever in matter of lute strings and Talbot is
   still today one of the best source of the very begginning od the XVIII
   c. but there is a but: they are both english. I do not thinks/remember
   if this intrument  was in use also in England: maybe Mace & Talbot were
   not aware of the existence of this  type of instrument? Who know. They
   do not mentioned for example the d minor lutes and the 5 course
   guitars.

Playford: I wonder how many in Europe were aware of this book. Facts
   are facts and the evidence of wound strings  realized gut cores for the
   11 course lutes & guitars is compelling. The 1760 guitar sources are
   here very clear: when they describes for the first time silk wound
   strings they explained the things in a way that is clear that they are
   introducing something of new and better.

   However I am not close to the idea of silk wound strings but having
   more historical evidences

   Thanks for the contribute. Ciao



   Da: Martyn Hodgson 
   Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 11:20
   A: Lute List ; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche
   
   Oggetto: Re: R: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon
   website


   Thanks Mimmo,


   Regarding silk cores for overwound strings, I agree that they are
   louder and more focused than those with just plain gut cores.


   However, whilst Mace and Talbot don't mention such strings, I see no
   reason to doubt the accuracy of the well known comment by Playford (a
   very significant and well established publisher and promoter) that
   wound strings on silk cores were known, and indeed preferred, at the
   time.  And so if in England, which had just undergone revolutionary
   wars etc, how much more in continental Europe and in particular areas
   with a history of fine wire drawing and string manufacture.  In short,
   I see no reason to suppose that overwound strings (and those on silk
   too) were not becoming known in many parts of Europe by the second half
   of the seventeenth century (for such instruments as the calchedon as
   while as the bass viol). But, as we agree, more work is clearly
   required


   Finally, it is relevant that the large continuo calchedon seems to have
   often (generally?) employed single strings:  so the diameter of
   overwinding wire can be quite substantial (as on the large bass viol
   employed by Staine Colombe et als at around this time).


   regards,


   Martyn


   On Saturday, 23 November 2019, 09:43:48 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde
   Armoniche <[1]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:



   Hi Martyn,

   thank you very much to inform me in matter.

   The open question about this instrument is still today not totally
   solved.

   So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument
   that was in use in Germany around 1740-90  with 6 course (Niggel types)
   or even more (for example Wenger models).

   I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and
   competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that
   mention this thing).


   The problem is  all round the use of the overspan strings, but only
   those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less
   loud)

   But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form
   Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk
   wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound
   strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of
   silk cores.

   At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John
   Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at
   all.

   Need more investigations

   Ciao

  

[LUTE] Re: Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

   Hi Martyn,

   thank you very much to inform me in matter.

   The open question about this instrument is still today not totally
   solved.

   So, I am doing my job concerning the strings only around the instrument
   that was in use in Germany around 1740-90  with 6 course (Niggel types)
   or even more (for example Wenger models).

   I agree with you that a such instrument sould be quite loud and
   competitive to the 7 bass viol (there are some historical sources that
   mention this thing).


   The problem is  all round the use of the overspan strings, but only
   those thatb employ silk in the cores (those with gut cores are less
   loud)

   But the first mention of silk cores (5 course guitars come form
   Guerrero (Spain 1760's) who wrote that in Spain they use wound silk
   wound strings because they are louder than the traditional wound
   strings with gut cores. Then there is Corrette that suggest the use of
   silk cores.

   At today the only mention od possible silk cores come form John
   Playford in 1664 but Both T Mace and Talbot do not mentioned them at
   all.

   Need more investigations

   Ciao

   Mimmo


   Da: Martyn Hodgson 
   Inviato: sabato 23 novembre 2019 10:31
   A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche ; Lute List
   
   Oggetto: Fw: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon
   website


   Dear Mimmo,


   Sorry, in my earlier I gave the wrong year for the Edlinger calchedon:
   - it should be 1728 not 1729 (the latter is the year Edlinger died).
   The instrument is part of the collection in the Narodnì Museum,
   Prague. Here's a link to a Czech language magazine site with a pic.


   [1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i=images=*hUKEwi4ydqF-__
   lAhWu34UKHXUXBB0QjRx6BAgBEAQ=http%3A%2F%2Fhudebnirozhledy.scena.cz%
   2Fwww%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dclanek%26id_clanku%3D2519=AOvVaw3UC3UL_
   IcQLJPxLR8YZdod


   regards


   Martyn


   - Forwarded message -

   From: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>

   To: Braig, Eugene <[3]brai...@osu.edu>; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche
   <[6]mperu...@aquilacorde.com>

   Sent: Friday, 22 November 2019, 12:34:24 GMT

   Subject: [LUTE] Calchedon strnging was Re: Mandora/Gallichon website


 Hello Mimmo,

 By coincidence I've also been developing a paper on early gallichon

 stringing for some time now, but have made but poor progress - mainly

 due to lack of suitable iconography showing such details in enough

 detail to draw definitive conclusions.

 My own thesis is that the very earliest calchedons/gallichons, were

 developed in Bohemia and northern Austrian lands in the 1660s and
   made

 use of the newly invented overwound strings to give a robust bass
   down

 to contabass ,A ( ie almost as low as the theorbo lowest bass)  and
   so

 produce an easily manageable instrument able to play chromatically in

 the lowest register. The Edlinger of 1729 is, I think, a particularly

 good example of the fully developed large continuo form of the

 instrument (though I think there may have been some modifications to

 the finial of the pegbox).

 This instrument is is mentioned in the recent FoMRHI paper (link
   below)

 as is also the possible relationships to the Italian instrument
   briefly

 touched on in my earlier.  Much food for thought


   [1][7]https://www.fomrhi.org/vanilla/fomrhi/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-13
   1/C

 omm%202037.pdf

 regards

 Martyn


 On Friday, 22 November 2019, 10:08:17 GMT, Mimmo - Aquila Corde

 Armoniche <[8]mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:

 Hello,

 This si really a good idea.

 I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting

 concerning Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a

 possible historical string setup)


   [2][9]https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a0

 =-1

 Mimmo Peruffo

 -Messaggio originale-

 Da: [3][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu

 <[4][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Braig,
   Eugene

 Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32

 A: [5][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

 Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

 I look forward to watching the site develop.  Thank you, Rainer.

 Eugene

 -Original Message-

 From: [6][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu

 <[7][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of

 Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt

 Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM

 To: [8][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

 Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website

 Dear Lute-List,

 I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century
   mandora/gallichon.

 This might be a place for general information about the
   instrument(s),

 its hi

[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Hops sorry.
Here is the right one:

https://www.hampel-auctions.com/o/Jacopo-Amigoni-1682-Venedig-1752-Madrid-zug.html?a=120=-1=1041=1200604=Gemaelde-16-18-Jhdt=IwAR39VKPpCAQJYqk61gx-oBoY0ym94Z05ZIK01ZeIIkRZLpx6RgHfglzfpJc

Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 Per conto di Braig, Eugene
Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32
A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

I look forward to watching the site develop.  Thank you, Rainer.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website

Dear Lute-List,

I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. 
This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its 
history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also 
information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a 
download page for lots of pieces.

Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! 
I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all 
the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of
course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, 
often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or 
gallant style.

During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, 
and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players 
did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and 
repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all.

That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would 
like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are
some)  to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of 
interest.

You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a 
completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in 
Germany).

The web adress is:   www.gallichon.de

But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I 
have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled 
with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should 
be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The 
website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a 
native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer 
to good english is welcome.

Let's try it.

Rainer


--
__
SEICENTO-Notenversand
Rainer Luckhardt
Holbeinstrasse 12
D-79312 Emmendingen

Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
Internet: www.seicentomusic.de
VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Hello,
This si really a good idea.
I have this contribute that, in my opinion, the best painting concerning 
Gallichon/Mandora (I am doing article in matter of a possible historical string 
setup)

https://www.hampel-auctions.com/online-catalog-fullscreen.html?a=120=-1=683

Mimmo Peruffo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 Per conto di Braig, Eugene
Inviato: giovedì 21 novembre 2019 19:32
A: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Mandora/Gallichon website

I look forward to watching the site develop.  Thank you, Rainer.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 On Behalf Of Seicento/Rainer Luckhardt
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 1:26 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Mandora/Gallichon website

Dear Lute-List,

I'm going to set up a website about the 18th century mandora/gallichon. 
This might be a place for general information about the instrument(s), its 
history, where it has been played, composers, and, and, and.but also 
information about where to find a player, a lutemaker, and last but not least a 
download page for lots of pieces.

Those who already know a bit about 18th century mandora music: don't be afraid! 
I'm not going to present hundreds of bad and boaring menuets there. Amongst all 
the manuscripts which I have (quite a lot, in copy of
course) I've found many interesting pieces, technically not to much demanding, 
often with nice melodies, and sometimes music of high quality in baroque or 
gallant style.

During the last years I've made a collection of my favorite pieces and suites, 
and I made readable copies of it with Fronimo. Probably other mandora players 
did the same. So why not putting together the whole mandora wisdom and 
repertoire and collect it in the web, downloadable for free and open to all.

That's quite a lot of work of which I've already done a bit. Therefore I would 
like to ask the mandora players of amongst us (I know there are
some)  to participate to this idea, and to contribute whatever might be of 
interest.

You can have a look to this very basic website with just an index-page, a 
completely empty "about Mandora"-page and the impressum (which is obligatory in 
Germany).

The web adress is:   www.gallichon.de

But some buttons are already there, and so at least you can see which themes I 
have integrated until now. But that's just work in progress, and to be filled 
with real information soon. If you have any suggestion about what else should 
be there, if you have any material to share, don't hesitate to contact me. The 
website shall be in english and german. As you certainly have seen I'm not a 
native speaker. Any help in transforming my poor english into something closer 
to good english is welcome.

Let's try it.

Rainer


--
__
SEICENTO-Notenversand
Rainer Luckhardt
Holbeinstrasse 12
D-79312 Emmendingen

Tel. ++49/(0)7641 - 932803
Internet: www.seicentomusic.de
VAT/UID-Nr. DE 142 047 317



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Hello there,
I would like to do a precisation in matter of the whole gut.
Actually, what I have written in the past is that it is not possible to employ 
whole gut because the gauge that it is possible to obtain for example with 3 
whole guts (i.e. the violin 1st) do not produce a gauge of about .70 mm,  that 
was the standard of the past times, but a lot thicker: around .90 mm (tes, EU 
lamb gut there).  I written also that a string made with whole gutis  uneven 
and not very strong. I remember that  Dan Larson of Gamut had the same 
expetience,  if i am not in mistake. I have done many experiments and always 
failed.

Since almost 8 months ago, I was  of the opinion that the kind of foods has not 
influence on the raw gut quality. It was a mistake:  recently I discovered that 
this is not true. Instead, I dicover that it is fondamental were the animal 
live and what it eat.  No importance at all if the animal take medicines. The 
race has a few influence there. 

I tryed this conclusion: how  it exist a special male spruce that came from the 
 Panaveggio's forest that make the best sound (but... is it true?) so it exist 
a kind of gut  that is the very best to make gut strings for music: it is thin 
enought to permit .70 mm gauge form 3 guts; very strong and even on its whole 
lenght. (no, the strings are not tapered,  sorrry for Capiriola anf Galilei)

Yes, the 1st lute string samples I have done are stronger than the standard: 
290 Hz/mt of breacking index (agaist an average of 260 Hx/mt of those that came 
from strads) but at the same time they are affected by the fact that the 
producer, that unfortunately is not in EU, mix togheter lamb and goat intestine 
that  have the same size. 

Last point:  the gauge I obtain form 1 whole unsplit lamb has this range: 
.37-.44 mm unpolished. When they are a little polished the gauges drop to 
.33-34 to .40-42 mm. So interesting for the double course 1st!). The lifetime 
is, in the average, longer than the standard. 

All these things are very interesting: they fit quite well with the historical 
sources: Attanasio Kircher (roman stringamers employed 1 whole gut for lute 
1st); Baron ( roman gut 1st can last till 4 weeks); the breacking index that is 
so high; and then that finally we can have the gauges for a double string 1st. 
Ah, there are no tapered stringssorry again to Capirola
All the best 
Mimmo



-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  Per conto di Andreas 
Schlegel
Inviato: martedì 23 ottobre 2018 08:33
A: Martyn Hodgson 
Cc: Jörg Hilbert ; lute list 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Different arciliuti

Dear Martyn

In my opinion, your argument takes the wrong way:
Our modern gut strings are more and more reconstructions of the old ones - but 
we don’t have the experience of the old string makers. I remember that Mimmo 
said some years ago that it’s impossible to make strings from whole guts. And 
now, he and at least another string maker (Davide Longhi of cordedrago) are 
able to do that. The modern evolution of reconstructing gut strings of the 
16th, 17th and 18th century makes really good progress - but it seems that the 
quality is still not the same.
In consequence our modern gut strings can’t be the judge on old instruments.

But what we have:
- string lengths of original instruments
- pitch (more or less accurate, I agree)

>From these starting points, we have to calculate and to try.
If we take the Roman a1 with 382 Hz, the real breaking point with 263 Hz*m is 
at 77.4 cm, the practical breaking point (one halftone below) is at 73.1 cm.
A while ago, Mimmo surprised also this list with the news that he was able to 
make chanterelles with more than 270 Hz*m breaking point.
It seems that the old Roman strings were of very high quality. So it seems not 
impossible to have an archlute with a chanterelle in g1 (340 Hz) with a string 
length of 73 cm.
I agree that such high quality strings were not available for all times at all 
places in Europe. I’m speaking from Roman archlutes in the time of Corelli. 
When the pitch was higher or the string quality poor, instruments have to be 
shortened - see the beautiful, but shortened Harz in Edinburgh with 6x2 = 67.3 
/ 8x1 = 143.8 - side by side with the not shortened Rotondi with 6x2 = 73 cm / 
8x1 = 162 cm. The not shortened Harz in Geneva has 1x1 + 5x2 = 73.0 / 8x1 = 155 
cm.

Of course, with „normal“ gut strings we have a problem nowadays. The string 
makers have to solve this problem, because instruments existed.

My hypothesis is: Arciliuti were built with the maximal possible string length 
because the chanterelle which is working close to the breaking point sounds 
very bright and therefore this bright sound cuts the sound of the orchestra - 
in combination with the thumb out technique and little finger behind the bridge.
And tiorbe made a compromise between handling and the biggest possible string 
length - normally at least 87 cm.

All the best,

Andreas


> Am 22.10.2018 um 17:19 

[LUTE] Re: dying strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Things are not that easy. 
Ed is right, however it is possible to dye the string just  after polishing, 
and this is  what the stringmakers that make harp strings usually do.
This is done using a  double component coloured varnish and using a sponge. Of 
course, in this case you obtain a varnished string.
It is possible to do the same job on a unvarnished gut string it using an 
alcool soluble pigment and a few of cotton.
Then put on the string a bit of almond oil when the string is well dried
Ciao
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  Per conto di Gamut 
Music
Inviato: mercoledì 30 maggio 2018 16:28
A: Ed Durbrow 
Cc: lute list 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: dying strings

   Hi Ed,
   At Gamut strings, we sometimes dye them, but we do this when the gut is
   wet, before the string is twisted and constructed.   After the string
   is twisted, dry and ready to be used, we do not color our strings
   because we would have to soak them to make them wet again, and this
   would probably destroy the string, we do not know.
   We would be interested to know if anyone knows how to successfully dye
   a gut string already constructed.
   Best,
   Ed Martin
   Gamut Music
   Customer Support

   On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 10:13 PM, Ed Durbrow
   <[1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp> wrote:

 Has anyone found a way that worked for them to dye gut strings? I
 have used a magic marker but it wears off.
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
 [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
 [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp
   2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Broeken nylgut string

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

The problem of breackage of the thinner Nylgut strings was caused by some inner 
 extruder parameters. The extrusion thecnology  is very complex, so the 
problemi s not just related to the common knowledges in matter of breaking 
index etc . On this fyeld I am learning everyday something of new.
I would like to say that I have fixed this problem a few months ago, around the 
2017 summer.   Always I had breakages on my renaissance lute of 61 cms tuned in 
G. This intrumentis my tester because there is no rider on the 1st string than 
can give an help. They are 5 months that it it tuned in A without any problem. 
 After a couple of months I have asked to our  early music distribitors and,  
since now, the problem of breakages drastically dropped.
Just to inform you guys.
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Matthew Daillie
Inviato: lunedì 19 febbraio 2018 11:39
A: Martyn Hodgson 
Cc: Wim Loos ; LuteNet list 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: Broeken nylgut string

I was presuming a pitch of 440 but Wim mentions neither pitch nor string length.



> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:22, Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> A nylgut string of 0.44 on a lute of 60cmm string length at A415



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Well, in my experience (and those of other stringmakers of the past like one of 
the best italian stringmaker of 1930's:Berti, that wrote something in matter) 
diet, foods etc has no influence at all on the string berhaviours/quality.
At the same time has no influence the season when you do the strings. The diet 
of sheeps was a leggend  introduced by Mersenne that, incidently, was not a 
stringmaker but a gesuit just to justify the superior quality of the italian 
gut strings. 
The real 'secret' , if a secret exist,  is how you process the gut: firstly the 
sequence of the chemical treatments, then the twisting ratio,  then how you 
polish the dried strings and  for the 'x factor' that I do not like so share 
because I am working in that direction having given me the results I have 
mentioned before. However, the 'x factor' is the real explanation  even for 
Mersenne,  surely not the sheep's diet.

Tennis strings: Yes, fortunately I know how to make tennis strings because my 
teacker was, for 30 years,  a Babolat and then Savarez gut stringmakers. So I 
have the recipe to make the VS tennis gut  strings in production in 1980-2000 
years. 
However, there is nothing of different/interesting: the most important thing is 
the use of beef serosa instead of sheep gut. Nothing to say in matter of the 
chemical treatments employed that, at the end of the day,  are same of strings 
for music. Actually, the real difference is the final coating/vernishing.
Mimmo

Ps: I have problems with my keyboards  so  this is what I meant:

...Well,  many of the surviving lutes and 5 course guitars (I mean those 
that are supposed in original conditions whose original pitch standard can be 
recognized.  They are: 13 course german baroque lutes (tuned at the german 
Kamerton = 410-420 Hz,  see Baron 1727), 5 course french guitars (tuned at the 
french pitch of 390 Hz) , some renaissanche Venetian  lutes of 56-58 cms scale 
( tuned  probably at the 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch of  465 Hz about) ) has 
all their  working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt...

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Tristan von Neumann
Inviato: sabato 20 gennaio 2018 13:38
A: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech

Since gut is the intestines of a living, breathing being, it is certainly 
exposed to some environmental or dietary change.

I am sure the key lies in the diet of the animals.
Maybe they aren't allowed to graze any more on lush meadows so their gut 
crumbles...

While looking for alternatives (I'm now all fishing line) I recently stumbled 
upon some obvious yet never mentioned alternative I have yet to try.
People other than musicians are desperately trying to recreate a gut feel to 
their gear - tennis and badminton players!
There are several brands of synthetic gut, though they only offer a narrow 
range of gauges - around 1mm for tennis and 0.6 for badminton.

Mimmo, do you have insight in synthetic tennis gut? Maybe those manufacturers 
have a suitable approach for musical strings without knowing.



Am 20.01.2018 um 13:13 schrieb spiffys84121:
> Here's something I've been wondering for years. Haven't gut strings
> always been made, even up until and after ww2 when nylon was first
> used? Isn't it a continuous tradition going back to ancient times? Is
> there a gap in our knowledge of how the strings were once made? Harps
> for instance have always used gut strings.
> 
> Sterling
> 
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> 
>  Original message ----
> From: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>
> Date: 1/20/18 1:54 AM (GMT-07:00)
> To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: String tech
> 
> (Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested
> )
> Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only
> source I know that testifies that is Baron (1727).
> He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks.
> Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not
> modified whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are:
> the 13 course german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian
> lutes of 56-58 cms scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their
> working index ranging from 225 to 235 Hz/mt.
> Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop
> to stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli
> 1678: 'a string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to
> the conlusion that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same
> breaking point of those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2.
> Instead, their li

[LUTE] Re: String tech

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

(Well. Sorry for the long post but I think than many can be interested )
Many thinks that the 1st lute strings of the past were better: the only source 
I know that testifies that is Baron (1727). 
He wrote that  there are instances were a roman 1st last till 4 weeks. 
Well,  many of the surviving lutes(5 course guitars (in mean those not modified 
whose the original pitch standard can be supposed. They are: the 13 course 
german baroque lutes, 5 course french guitars, venetian lutes of 56-58 cms 
scale: 'mezzo punto' venetian pitch) has their working index ranging from 225 
to 235 Hz/mt. 

Considering that on the graphic stress/strain, a thin gut string stop to 
stretch around 2-3 semitone before the breakage (Daniello Bartoli 1678: 'a 
string breaks when it cannot stretch furthermore'), I come  to the conlusion 
that the lute/guitar 1st strings of the past had the same breaking point of 
those made today, i.e. 34-39 Kg/mm2. 
 Instead, their lifetime was probably  longer.
Well guys, generally speaking, I agree to what  Ed wrote.

However I would like to point out that, a few years ago, I was very luky to 
obtain by chance a few gut strings .38-.46 mm gauge  (beef) whose breaking 
index was of 310 Hz mt (!) and the lifetime around 2 months (Lynda Sayce, 
Caludia Caffagni feedbacks): no vernish, glue or superficial coatings were 
employed: they were just rectified by uncenterless machine and then oliled.  
This is what happend to me.
I am pretty sure that potentially we stringmakers can reach a similar goal even 
with lamb gut. 
Unfortunately I was not ables to do the job again:  the raw gut ribbons must 
have some critical features that are not commonly available today. In fact I 
was not ables to have that kind of gut again. That's pity.
I remember that I have done a short article on the UK lute society. 

I have another thing to say: A. Kirker (rome 1650) wrote that the lute 1st 
strings were made from 1 unsplit lamb gut. Well, I was always skeptical on this 
subject (Kirker was not a stringmaker). Well,  a few months ago I was ables to 
make a 1st string starting from a single thin mongolian lamb gut and it was an 
amazing experience:  I polished the string in gentle way by hand; the final 
gauge was .40, the string was even on its whole length;  the breaking point was 
around 35 Kg/mm2. In practice it breaks to A note on my lute of 61 cms. The 
sound was so beautiful. I had no time to verify the lifetime. Again: i am 
fightring to have more of that gut buti t is not easy; the diameter of ther gut 
do not meet the necessity for sausages so for the mongolian workers  IT IS A 
WASTE. Crazy. 
In conclusion:  there is space for all the stringmakers to done the job: 
researches and tests. Go ahead guys.
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Leonard Williams
Inviato: venerdì 19 gennaio 2018 23:25
A: Lute List 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: String tech

I play an 8-course, 59 cm lute, nominally in G (A c. 430), with 0.42 mm 
treble gut from Gamut.  The strings may last a while, but fraying and the 
resulting compromised tone can occur early on.  In some cases I can turn the 
(unshortened) string around and avoid bad patches near the nut or plucking 
zone.  I would, nevertheless, prefer to change strings less often, but I love 
the sound of gut!

Thanks,
Leonard

> On Jan 19, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Edward Martin  wrote:
> 
> Hello Leonard and others,
> 
> This is a topic of great interest to me, as I have played mostly gut strings 
> for 30 + years. There is nothing as beautiful as the sound of a gut strung 
> lute tuned well. Some have tried oils, resins, even crazy glue with mixed 
> effectiveness of making trebles last long. 
> 
> Of the few who responded, what they did not say is what pitch and string 
> length they are using. In my experience that is the utmost important factor. 
> 
> If you want a g treble at a=440, you cannot exceed 59 cm in length. If you 
> do, you can only expect short strong life. It does not help to use a smaller 
> diameter treble, as lowering the tension does not help either. If you want a 
> baroque lute treble of f a = 415, if you exceed 68 cm, you will experience 
> failure and short string life. We certainly can use any synthetic string, 
> nylon, carbon, nylgut, etc., but the properties of gut are that we must stay 
> in the formula or we have treble string short life. Some argue that we 
> “should” be able to string gut trebles at higher pitches than what gut is 
> capable of, but experience has shown otherwise. Although we can get a 
> synthetic treble at g = 440 at let’s say 63 cm, we cannot with gut and that 
> lute for instance should be at f, not g. 
> 
> My 67 cm. 11-course baroque lute is at f 415 at 67.5 , and a usual treble 
> lasts me 3 months. Once, I had one that lasted 10 months with heavy playing!! 
>  On my 70.5 cm baroque lute, it only lasts a 

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

 The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the
 strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt,  can predict when a
 string start to be 'not good enought'.

   I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not a denser
   versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc).
   Generally  speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a
   renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality,
   thus the octave is indispensable (Vihuela? In my opinion it had octaves
   on the 5 and 6 courses). The Working Index of a  6th course on a lute
   of 60cms at modern pitch is around 59 Hz/mt.
   So, if the last bass string of the extended neck is around the same
   value, an octave is necessary  (we have the same  working index of the
   6th course) .

   Which is the scale were the working index is same of the 6 course of a
   lute ?

   At the modern  'baroque' pitch of 415  the last bass note is a GG of
   46.25 Hz so:
   59/46.25= 1.27 mt
   In practice we can maybe say that, generally speacking when the
   extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut
start to be necessary  the use of octaves.
   Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is
   still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut
   strings the  extended neck can be even  a bit shorter than that.
   What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision,  we
   are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or
   bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of
   the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the
   breakage or not?) .  I have  considered a pactical 'rule of thumb'
   having seen that  the 6th course had octaves  while the 5th is still
   matter of taste.
   Mimmo
   -Messaggio originale-
   Da: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Per conto di sterling price
   Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27
   A: Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson
   <[4]magnusl...@gmail.com>; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be
   able
 to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based
   on
 the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might
   make
 it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it
   longer--but
 probably 120cm will do it.
 Thanks,
 Sterling
   __
 From: Martin Shepherd <[6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
 To: Magnus Andersson <[7]magnusl...@gmail.com>;
   "[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear Magnus and All,
 A few thoughts:
 I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
 found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
 shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
 In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
 recent
 experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
 instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
 string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
 the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
 been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
 If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
 which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
 whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
 The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
 consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
 from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
 irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
 state
 in which there were more than 6 courses.
 If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length
   for
 the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
 theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
 length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
 remains.
 Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout)
   there
 is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit
   jeu
 strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of
   the
 beast.
 Best wishes,
 Martin
 On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

   Dear collective wisdom,

   I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding

   proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.

   

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and 
the vibrating string lenght in mt,  can predict when a string start to be 'not 
good enought'.
I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not the denser versions 
(wound, loaded, gimped etc etc).

Now, generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a 
renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality and the 
octave is indispensable (and what about the Vihuela? Well  in my opinion it had 
octaves on the 5 and 6 courses because the bass strings were those in use on 
Lutes). The Working Index of the  6th course is around 59 Hz/mt.
 So, if the last bass string of the extended neck exceed the value of  59 Hz/mt 
of Working Index  an octave is necessary like (same working index of the 6th 
course) .
At the modern  'baroque' pitch of 415  the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz 
so:
59/46.25= 1.27 mt
In practice we can say that, generally speacking (generally speacking, ok?) 
when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain 
gut  start to be necessary  the use of octaves. 
Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still 
welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the  
extended neck can be even  a bit shorter than that.
What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision,  we are 
indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is 
matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the 
right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) .  I have  
considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that  the 6th course had 
octaves  while the 5th is still matter of taste.
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
sterling price
Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27
A: Martin Shepherd ; Magnus Andersson 
; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

   Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able
   to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on
   the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make
   it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but
   probably 120cm will do it.
   Thanks,
   Sterling
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Magnus Andersson ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   Dear Magnus and All,
   A few thoughts:
   I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
   found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
   shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
   In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
   recent
   experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
   instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
   string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
   the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
   been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
   If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
   which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
   whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
   The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
   consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
   from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
   irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
   state
   in which there were more than 6 courses.
   If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for
   the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
   theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
   length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
   remains.
   Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there
   is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu
   strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the
   beast.
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:
   >Dear collective wisdom,
   >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
   >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
   >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
   >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
   >
   [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179
   9
   >It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
   >

[LUTE] unwound Synthetic CD basses for long diapasons: make it sense?

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Hello,
Some are telling me to produce longer CD strings for the long theorbo diapasons.
Actually, I have some strong doubts: the tonal balance with the fretted strings 
will became even worse; the sound, in general, will became too bright and 
'modern'. 
The risk is that we will lost the sense of the 'fondamento', whose sound should 
imitate the human voice and be dark, not too brilliant. 
I know: many performers already uses long wound strings; at the same time we 
know that the extended necks were introduced to accomodate plain gut strings, 
not for denser gut/synthetic version of it or even wound strings. 
Actually, I would like to stay in the direction that can make of support of the 
traditional Lute/theorbo sound, not in the direction to destroy it making a 
sort of... elettric chitarrone (Lol).

Maybe things can be different if we are specking of these special kind of 
invented short neck theorboes  that are today whidely in use when one must take 
a fly. We know how hard is to fly with a standard theorbo.
These instruments has only an option that work: wound strings. Making a longer 
CD for this kind of instruments can be maybe a good option?
Maybe making them of 1,40 cms max so one cannot install them on the 'real' 
theorboes...

Guys, which is you opinion?
Mimmo Peruffo



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[LUTE] German lute tablature

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Hello guys,
I have found by chances this one:
https://archive.org/details/urn-nbn-se-kb-digark-5441771
Is it already knows?
Mimmo



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[LUTE] Re: Fishing Line Renaissance

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

I would like to say something in matter.
The nylon for music is not the same for fishing line, whose density is around 
1.16. The density of the common musical nylon is 1.04 and it is a 6-12 
polyamide.  The du pont brand name is Tynex but it can be processed in 
Monofilaments  everywhere.
The density is not enough to define a sound quality. Another very important 
parameter is the elasticity  or young modulus. It must be not too high, nor too 
low.  The second parameter that nobody mentioned but it is actually the most 
important on the nylon family is the moisture absorbition. on the nylon for 
fishing line is very high. This explain why this kind of Nylon, whose density 
is higher than tynex is useless like musical string. Nylgut density is 1.35; 
pvdf (so called carbon ) is 1.78. These values are the correct ones.
Take care 
Mimmo

> Il giorno 31 ott 2017, alle ore 21:05, Tristan von Neumann 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> 
> Let's talk numbers here.
> 
> Nylon is 1140 kg/m³, Durablend is 1150, gut is 1276 (Nylgut: 1260) and 
> Fluorocarbon is 1790.
> (according to Karstilo's String Calculator)
> 
> This means that Nylon/Durablend are *a lot* closer to actual gut or nylgut 
> that Fluorocarbon is.
> How it feels and sounds is another discussion, but tension is calculated on 
> this basis, right?
> 
> 
>> Am 31.10.2017 um 20:30 schrieb Dan Winheld:
>> Actually, Nylon is a lot less dense than gut. To equal the tension of a .42 
>> gut treble I need to go up to a .475 diameter in Nylon. And about .36 or .37 
>> in Fluorocarbon, (which is why I almost never use it for trebles- getting 
>> like a bad steel string in sound & feel, although not of course in tension. 
>> Only of my instruments sounds/feels good with the Fluorocarbon treble).
>> Looking forward to trying out the fishing line. Maye I will reel in some 
>> interesting sounds!
>> Dan
>>> On 10/31/2017 11:21 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
>>> It's much less dense than Fluorocarbon.
>>> And only a little less dense than actual gut or nylgut. You will end up 
>>> with similar, just a bit thicker diameters than those.
>>> Careful: They take a long time to settle (more than a week).
>>> 
>>> 
 Am 31.10.2017 um 19:09 schrieb Anthony Glass:
 So...is nylon more or less dense than fluorocarbon? I've never used
 nylon on a lute, only nylgut and PVF.
 Thanks!
 TG
 
 On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>
 wrote:
 
   Very cool discovery! Thanks. Could it be some form of the stuff
   referred to as "Carbon" or "Flourocarbon"- the KF (in gauges up
   to.91) made by Savarez?
   Dan
 
 On 10/31/2017 6:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 
   Hello Lutist "cheapskates",
   I just got the information from the factory who produce KastKing
   Durablend fishing line (available in 0.4-1.4mm) - specific weight is
   1150 kg/m ³ so it's a bit more dense than usual Nylon.
   So if there's anyone out there needing a cheap string replacement
   and don't like the Flourocarbon stuff, buy those-
   It's quite transparent though, but has a nice sound. Ask for sound
   samples if you're interested.
   Cheers,
   T*
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 --
 
 References
 
 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Thanks Dan.
'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are 
some new things:

1) Lute chantarelles: I was able to do a few  experimental lute 1st string 
starting from a lamb- whole gut of 1to 3 months of life (see Attyanasius 
Kirker, Rome 1650) . The samples were even on their whole  lenght (not conical 
or tapered, I mean: see Capirola 1517 ca.); the breacking point was around 36 
Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a slight hand-polishing-  were between .39- .42 mm. 
The sound? Marvelous (isn't interesting?).

2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were 
not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were 
with octaves, not in usissons.

3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to 
add to the section.

4) There are much more historical evidences concerning the use of wound strings 
on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to 
Andreas Schleger researching). There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; 
two of 1760's; one of 1790's.  Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound 
strings were done on gut or silk cores.

Take care
Mimmo

Inviato da iPhone

> Il giorno 31 ago 2017, alle ore 18:20, Dan Winheld  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> And not to be forgotten, the great work of Dan Larson of "Gamut" Strings- 
> using real gut subjected to great research & creativity to bring us lute 
> strings- esp. those troublesome basses- that come closer to a "real" thing!
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Thanks Dan.
'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are 
some new things:

1) Lute chantarelles: I was able to do a few  experimental lute 1st string 
starting from a lamb- whole gut of 1to 3 months of life (see Attyanasius 
Kirker, Rome 1650) . The samples were even on their whole  lenght (not conical 
or tapered, I mean: see Capirola 1517 ca.); the breacking point was around 36 
Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a slight hand-polishing-  were between .39- .42 mm. 
The sound? Marvelous (isn't interesting?).

2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were 
not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were 
with octaves, not in usissons.

3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to 
add to the section.

4) There are much more historical evidences concerning the use of wound strings 
on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to 
Andreas Schleger researching). There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; 
two of 1760's; one of 1790's.  Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound 
strings were done on gut or silk cores.

Take care
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Dan Winheld
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 17:54
A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>; Lute List 
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

Oh yes; here it is: "The lute in its historical reality" by Mimmo Peruffo

http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/liuto-en.pdf

Should be "required reading" by all lute students, players, & teachers. 
No matter how you end up stringing your instruments. Over 50 years of luting I 
have done my own small efforts; sacrifices, mistakes, and at this point have 
made the compromises (bargains with the devil too) necessary to continue as I 
head into the sunset, frets still fraying & strings still breaking.

Dan

On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote:
> Ciao,
> I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
> emotional, guys.
> I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
> right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
> concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
> (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc 
> etc). Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back 
> and so I do not complain.
> Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
> (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
> economical support for all these tests).
>
> Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
> bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for 
> years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass 
> lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old 
> sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses.
> Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol.
>
> Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
> others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
> happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
> product deserves a good product. Sentence.
> This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
> solution I am there for the replaces.
> (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal 
> job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
> Vivi felice
> Mimmo
>
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
> Matthew Daillie
> Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
> A: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
>
> I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
> CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
> that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions 
> will be much better.
>
> I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
> euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
> recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.
>
> Best,
> Matthew
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Thanks Dan.
'The Lute in its historical reality' will be soon update; in fact, there are 
some new things:

1) a few time ago I was able to do a few  experimental lute 1st string starting 
from a lamb- whole gut (see what wrotten Attyanasius Kirker, Rome 1650) . The 
sampleswere even on the whole  length (not conical or tapered, I mean: see 
Capirola) ; the breacking point was around 36 Kg/mm2; the gauges, -after a 
slight hand-polishing was between-  .39- .42 mm. The sound? Marvelous (isn't 
interesting?).

2) Vihuela unissons/octaves: I have to re-write some points because they were 
not well explained. Yes, I still think that the Vihuela 5th, 6th bases were 
with octaves, not in usissons.

3) 17 th c. lute basses (loaded): I have a few more historical informations to 
add to the section.

4) This is the most important update: at today, there are much more historical 
evidences concerning the use of wound strings on German d -minor lutes of 11 & 
13 courses. The first is of 1716 (Thanks to Andreas Schleger researching). 
There are others: one of 1730's; one of 1740's; two of 1760's; one of 1790's.  
Unfortunately is not weritten if the wound strings were done on gut or silk 
cores. 

Take care
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Dan Winheld
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 17:54
A: Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche <mperu...@aquilacorde.com>; Lute List 
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

Oh yes; here it is: "The lute in its historical reality" by Mimmo Peruffo

http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/liuto-en.pdf

Should be "required reading" by all lute students, players, & teachers. 
No matter how you end up stringing your instruments. Over 50 years of luting I 
have done my own small efforts; sacrifices, mistakes, and at this point have 
made the compromises (bargains with the devil too) necessary to continue as I 
head into the sunset, frets still fraying & strings still breaking.

Dan

On 8/31/2017 2:23 AM, Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche wrote:
> Ciao,
> I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
> emotional, guys.
> I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
> right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
> concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
> (I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc 
> etc). Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back 
> and so I do not complain.
> Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
> (instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
> economical support for all these tests).
>
> Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
> bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for 
> years and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass 
> lute string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old 
> sources that decribes the sound of the lute basses.
> Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol.
>
> Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
> others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
> happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
> product deserves a good product. Sentence.
> This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
> solution I am there for the replaces.
> (I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal 
> job; instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
> Vivi felice
> Mimmo
>
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
> Matthew Daillie
> Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
> A: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings
>
> I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
> CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
> that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions 
> will be much better.
>
> I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
> euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
> recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.
>
> Best,
> Matthew
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Ciao,
I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
emotional, guys.
I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
(I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc etc). 
Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I 
do not complain. 
Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
(instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
economical support for all these tests).  

Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for years 
and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute 
string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources 
that decribes the sound of the lute basses.  
Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. 

Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
product deserves a good product. Sentence.
This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
solution I am there for the replaces.
(I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; 
instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
Vivi felice
Mimmo

-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Matthew Daillie
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
A: Lute List 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will 
be much better.

I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.

Best,
Matthew



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

Ciao,
I have to thanks all the friends  that has apreciated my efforts. It is very 
emotional, guys.
I would like to make a few things transparent (thanks Martyn. BTW:  you are 
right about Ephraim Segerman): since now, the whole cost of all the tests, 
concerning the sole copper powder, the most expensive, was around 8,000 euros 
(I not consider here the worker's costs, elastomer cost  elettricity etc etc). 
Despite that  it was my choice so I take the responsability on my back and so I 
do not complain. 
Lukly for me, to make or preserve money is not the mean goal of my life 
(instead, I would like to thanks the Ukulele that actually give out the 
economical support for all these tests).  

Yes, I am working hard on this project:  it is one of my dream, maybe the 
bigger.  The sound of these CD's is exactly what I heard in my  head for years 
and years since 1990's. The CD's maifest itsehlf my own idea how a bass lute 
string should be and maybe it was even in the past. There are a few old sources 
that decribes the sound of the lute basses.  
Yes: I have a sort addiction/passion on that. Lol. 

Last point: I am totally in feel  and I totally agree on what Matthew and 
others thinks: In the same position I probably will be even worse. No one is 
happy to lost money and be even unsatisfact. A customer that have payed a 
product deserves a good product. Sentence.
This is why I am there to do my service:  when I will have found the final 
solution I am there for the replaces.
(I have already done that). Be patient with me: this is not just a normal job; 
instead, this is a fight between me and the technological limits. Lol.
Vivi felice
Mimmo



-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
Matthew Daillie
Inviato: giovedì 31 agosto 2017 10:21
A: Lute List 
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: KF vs. new Aquila bass strings

I would just like to say that I have been critical of the past productions of 
CD loaded nylgut strings firstly to warn other players who want to buy them 
that all is not yet rosy and secondly in the hope that future productions will 
be much better.

I think the biggest proof of my support of Mimmo's work is the hundreds of 
euros I have spent on Aquila strings in the last few years and my frequent 
recommendations to other players who were not familiar with them.

Best,
Matthew



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html