[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
Thanks to those who pointed out the errors in my manner of inserting interpolations - in fact, I did try to do something like this by putting in spaces and inserting a dash before my comments, but much was lost by the system not copying how I separated text (eg see the extract below). And I don't understand why this is either.. regards Martyn On Saturday, 5 September 2020, 17:52:20 BST, Ralf Mattes wrote: On 05.09.20 18:29, G. C. wrote: > PS What might also be good, would be the ability to send parts of > messages in bold/italic etc which the current system seems to > put into > plain text. For example, my interpolations here would be clearer > if put > in bold. Why ignore the de-facto standard that exist for quotes in mails since the beginning of time (long before "the internet" became a thing). Quotes are prefixed with '>' (or, if you insist, with '|'). That way you can even quote quotes etc. Any decent mail client will do this automatically when you chose to 'reply' to an email. >You could yourself have made them clearer by putting marks like plus >signs or asterisks or whatever at beginning and end. I know that >separating text doesn't seem to work sometimes, and don't understand >why that is. >G. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
This is where I have some disagreement. Having a purely personal effort is great but fragile. If there was an international Lute body then it would be great. There isn't. So, who wants to take on the personal responsibility that Wayne has for all these years. My experience from running a number of these is that the personal efforts tend to die when the person doing it looses interest. But, maybe this one will be different. Anyway, it will be interesting to see where this goes. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Alain Veylit Sent: Saturday, September 5, 2020 10:02 AM Cc: 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious) I totally agree with the below: On 9/5/20 9:16 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > 6) Should the list/forum be maintained as a separate effort, or should > it be rolled into the LSA, etc.? > - Being a truly international list has been a great > feature and strength of Wayne's system and ought to continue as such > without necessarily being held by any one national society.body > (e.g. sponsorship, personal vs. organizational liability, domain > ownership/transferability, futureproofing, and user > rules/guidelines) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
I totally agree with the below: On 9/5/20 9:16 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: 6) Should the list/forum be maintained as a separate effort, or should it be rolled into the LSA, etc.? - Being a truly international list has been a great feature and strength of Wayne's system and ought to continue as such without necessarily being held by any one national society.body (e.g. sponsorship, personal vs. organizational liability, domain ownership/transferability, futureproofing, and user rules/guidelines) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
On 05.09.20 18:29, G. C. wrote: PS What might also be good, would be the ability to send parts of messages in bold/italic etc which the current system seems to put into plain text. For example, my interpolations here would be clearer if put in bold. Why ignore the de-facto standard that exist for quotes in mails since the beginning of time (long before "the internet" became a thing). Quotes are prefixed with '>' (or, if you insist, with '|'). That way you can even quote quotes etc. Any decent mail client will do this automatically when you chose to 'reply' to an email. You could yourself have made them clearer by putting marks like plus signs or asterisks or whatever at beginning and end. I know that separating text doesn't seem to work sometimes, and don't understand why that is. G. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
PS What might also be good, would be the ability to send parts of messages in bold/italic etc which the current system seems to put into plain text. For example, my interpolations here would be clearer if put in bold. You could yourself have made them clearer by putting marks like plus signs or asterisks or whatever at beginning and end. I know that separating text doesn't seem to work sometimes, and don't understand why that is. G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
Dear Ron, See my interpolations below. In short, please duplicate as closely as reasonably possible the format and mechanisms etc of Wayne's list regards Martyn On Saturday, 5 September 2020, 16:33:02 BST, Ron Banks wrote: I don't really know who (if anyone) is working on a replacement for the lute list(s) and a classified site, or how far along they've gotten in the process. Also, Wayne's early comments in this thread about not replicating the old list and classified site are also very appropriate, since his sites were based on proprietary code. It might also be a very good time to verify what the community needs really are, as they may have changed since 1998. While I love the portability of this list (and email communications in general), the workload of managing the infrastructure, security (User Registration and Maintenance, Compliance, SPAM/Phishing/DDoS/Site Takeover protection, etc.), and site continuity can also be pretty burdensome, especially if it's an individual effort. I haven't been very active on the list since the 1990's, so I can't really speak to the current community requirements. Other members of the community would certainly be more qualified to answer that, than I would. Some questions that probably need to be addressed (and may have already been answered) are: 1) Is an email-only messaging system preferred - YES (with a separate web site classified page - if really thought necessary)? (e.g. mailman (or similar), with an additional classified/marketplace website) 2) Is the community open to a web-based forum - Personally speaking. an email system like Wayne's seems ideal - with email alerting and an integrated classified section? (e.g. phpbb or similar forum(s) with email notification and a classified section) 3) How many members are currently on the list, and what is their geographic distribution/nationality (e.g. cost, performance, and compliance rightsizing) - Is this really relevant? - people should be able to join and leave as wished 4) How many members could (or would) serve as moderators? - I would volunteer but am afraid I don't have the necessary technical web expertise 5) How many lists/forums would be needed? - Perhaps just one 6) Should the list/forum be maintained as a separate effort, or should it be rolled into the LSA, etc.? - Being a truly international list has been a great feature and strength of Wayne's system and ought to continue as such without necessarily being held by any one national society.body (e.g. sponsorship, personal vs. organizational liability, domain ownership/transferability, futureproofing, and user rules/guidelines) PS What might also be good, would be the ability to send parts of messages in bold/italic etc which the current system seems to put into plain text. For example, my interpolations here would be clearer if put in bold. On 9/5/20, 2:22 AM, "Jurgen Frenz" <[1]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: I'm a bit confused about the status of this discussion - are we still looking for a hosting service? I am subscribed to some other music + sound related lists that seem to be of an acceptable format [2]https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/create It takes an admin to create the list and manage members etc. Jurgen To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 2. https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/create 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site (long and probably tedious)
Jurgen, I don't really know who (if anyone) is working on a replacement for the lute list(s) and a classified site, or how far along they've gotten in the process. Also, Wayne's early comments in this thread about not replicating the old list and classified site are also very appropriate, since his sites were based on proprietary code. It might also be a very good time to verify what the community needs really are, as they may have changed since 1998. While I love the portability of this list (and email communications in general), the workload of managing the infrastructure, security (User Registration and Maintenance, Compliance, SPAM/Phishing/DDoS/Site Takeover protection, etc.), and site continuity can also be pretty burdensome, especially if it's an individual effort. I haven't been very active on the list since the 1990's, so I can't really speak to the current community requirements. Other members of the community would certainly be more qualified to answer that, than I would. Some questions that probably need to be addressed (and may have already been answered) are: 1) Is an email-only messaging system preferred (with a separate web site classified page)? (e.g. mailman (or similar), with an additional classified/marketplace website) 2) Is the community open to a web-based forum with email alerting and an integrated classified section? (e.g. phpbb or similar forum(s) with email notification and a classified section) 3) How many members are currently on the list, and what is their geographic distribution/nationality (e.g. cost, performance, and compliance rightsizing) 4) How many members could (or would) serve as moderators? 5) How many lists/forums would be needed? 6) Should the list/forum be maintained as a separate effort, or should it be rolled into the LSA, etc.? (e.g. sponsorship, personal vs. organizational liability, domain ownership/transferability, futureproofing, and user rules/guidelines) Thanks, Ron Banks On 9/5/20, 2:22 AM, "Jurgen Frenz" wrote: I'm a bit confused about the status of this discussion - are we still looking for a hosting service? I am subscribed to some other music + sound related lists that seem to be of an acceptable format https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/create It takes an admin to create the list and manage members etc. Jurgen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
You're right Ron, I didn't think the issue all the way to the end, I agree with your thoughts. Let's think of something else that still doesn't cost any money. Best, Jurgen ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, September 4, 2020 6:49 PM, wrote: > Jurgen, > > While I think Google Groups has good mechanisms for sharing ideas and content > (without algorithm-based interference like FB has)...and aside from Google's > business model of harvesting data for search purposes, etc., the bigger > practical issue would be setting up the group to comply with the GDPR and > CCPA's data protection and "right to be forgotten" requirements. Maintaining > consent, knowing where the data resides, and when it has been exfiltrated > become important under both, as email addresses and more data point become > classed as personal information under both. It can certainly be done > correctly, but needs considerable forethought, especially when a group has an > international membership base. > > Thanks, > > Ron Banks > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Jurgen Frenz > Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 10:03 AM > To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > Cc: lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site > > As much as I share the privacy concerns with google I wonder if that is of a > major concern for our discussion about lute music. Fronimo uses google groups > and it never occurred to me that google hijacked posts for advertisement > purposes. Follow and log users, yes, but then again... > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Friday, September 4, 2020 2:13 PM, Martyn Hodgson > hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
As much as I share the privacy concerns with google I wonder if that is of a major concern for our discussion about lute music. Fronimo uses google groups and it never occurred to me that google hijacked posts for advertisement purposes. Follow and log users, yes, but then again... ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, September 4, 2020 2:13 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Well said Ron, > The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited > for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and > for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned' > (and > I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this > really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc > allows > slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation. > It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily > on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such > like... > MH > > On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico > praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: > > I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist > > > with > this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). > Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that > there > abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who > will > never contribute on the Facebk platform. That particular platform > is > the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The > format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very > little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity > postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Facebkactually > suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff > of > commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary > objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than > they > should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. > Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly > embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now > a > brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as > old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your > ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to > not > participate in your scheme. > RA > From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor > > <[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > > Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM > To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; > > > lutelist Net > <[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site > Hi Cathy, > I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus > > > FB. > Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you > a > better answer. Here are my sanswers: > The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we > have > access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer > questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute > player, > but > the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is > not > the place for promoting you CD or next concert. > FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think > Larry > spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a > younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I > hear > it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians > use > it > instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings > are > very short. > I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not > right > now. > We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but > nothing > recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the > lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address > for > future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions > to > my > lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the > lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to > take > the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, > dick > and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. > David > Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. > When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't > selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale > after > about a year. This seems to me
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Ron--
Amen! Thank you!
Leonard Williams
-Original Message-
From: Ron Andrico
To: LSA Editor ; LSA President
; lutelist Net
Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2020 7:59 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist
with
this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language).
Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that
there
abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who
will
never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform
is
the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The
format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very
little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity
postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k
actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff
of
commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary
objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than
they
should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible.
Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly
embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now
a
brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as
old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your
ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to
not
participate in your scheme.
RA
From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor
<[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM
To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>;
lutelist Net
<[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Hi Cathy,
I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus
FB.
Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you
a
better answer. Here are my sanswers:
The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we
have
access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer
questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute
player,
but
the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is
not
the place for promoting you CD or next concert.
FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think
Larry
spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a
younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I
hear
it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians
use
it
instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings
are
very short.
I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not
right
now.
We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but
nothing
recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the
lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address
for
future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions
to
my
lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the
lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to
take
the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom,
dick
and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti.
David
Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years.
When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't
selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale
after
about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs
looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is
posting
new instruments for sale.
We would also need to make sure people know where to find both
the
LL
and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going
to
his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS
site.
Nancy
I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should
not
piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should
probably
not piss of anyone! â we can proceed.
What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or
on
Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious.
What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and
be a
benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have
some
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Jurgen, While I think Google Groups has good mechanisms for sharing ideas and content (without algorithm-based interference like FB has)...and aside from Google's business model of harvesting data for search purposes, etc., the bigger practical issue would be setting up the group to comply with the GDPR and CCPA's data protection and "right to be forgotten" requirements. Maintaining consent, knowing where the data resides, and when it has been exfiltrated become important under both, as email addresses and more data point become classed as personal information under both. It can certainly be done correctly, but needs considerable forethought, especially when a group has an international membership base. Thanks, Ron Banks -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Jurgen Frenz Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 10:03 AM To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site As much as I share the privacy concerns with google I wonder if that is of a major concern for our discussion about lute music. Fronimo uses google groups and it never occurred to me that google hijacked posts for advertisement purposes. Follow and log users, yes, but then again... ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, September 4, 2020 2:13 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Please do not take the suggestion about using Facebook to replace the lite lis seriously. It was just a question that was asked and no decision has been made to use it. I agree with all the comments about Facebook being inappropriate as a replacement. I run a number of non-profit sites that use Facebook, google groups, plus old fashioned websites. Each has a purpose and radically different styles of communication. Facebook is not a good mechanism for discussion, archive, and search. It is a capricious platform that is good for shouting out announcements and ideas - think of a box on a street corner with someone standing on it and shouting. Google groups might be a option but it does have some limits on number of members. Without knowing how many members are on this list it is difficult to assess the size requirement. Please bear with those working on a solution. David Get [1]Outlook for iOS __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of ron.ba...@rwbanks.com Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 7:02:17 AM To: 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site I agree wholeheartedly with Ralf, David, Francesco, Martyn, and Ron Andrico comments. I'd also like to thank Wayne for his many years of service, and wish him a happy retirement. In addition to any privacy, security, and 3rd party monetization concerns, it's also important to remember that Facebook determines which messages/content are presented to each user. As such, not all members may have all messages presented to them. Even though mail lists are old technology, they can be a much more equal platform for members. Thanks, Ron Banks -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Ralf Mattes Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 8:31 AM To: ftribi...@gmail.com; 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site On 04.09.20 15:19, ftribi...@gmail.com wrote: > First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades! +1 Same from here! > I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute > list as we know it. +1000! > What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to > maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it > can be configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in > addition it offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages. Please, no. The difference between Facebook an Google in terms of data privacy are unfortunately pretty small (long gone are the times where Google where the good ones, sigh). Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://aka.ms/o0ukef 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
I agree wholeheartedly with Ralf, David, Francesco, Martyn, and Ron Andrico comments. I'd also like to thank Wayne for his many years of service, and wish him a happy retirement. In addition to any privacy, security, and 3rd party monetization concerns, it's also important to remember that Facebook determines which messages/content are presented to each user. As such, not all members may have all messages presented to them. Even though mail lists are old technology, they can be a much more equal platform for members. Thanks, Ron Banks -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Ralf Mattes Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 8:31 AM To: ftribi...@gmail.com; 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site On 04.09.20 15:19, ftribi...@gmail.com wrote: > First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades! +1 Same from here! > I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute > list as we know it. +1000! > What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to > maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it > can be configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in > addition it offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages. Please, no. The difference between Facebook an Google in terms of data privacy are unfortunately pretty small (long gone are the times where Google where the good ones, sigh). Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
I second Francesco's remarks entirely. Especially
thanking Wayne and hoping we can continue with a
Google list rather than Facebook.
This list is much more serious, and importantly
less intrusive, platform for debate.
Best wishes to Wayne for the future,
David
At 15:19 +0200 4/9/20, wrote:
First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades!
I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as
we know it.
What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to
maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be
configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it
offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages.
Francesco
-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu Per conto di Martyn Hodgson
Inviato: venerdì 4 settembre 2020 14:14
A: LSA Editor ; LSA President
; lutelist Net
; Ron Andrico
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Well said Ron,
The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited
>for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and
for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned'
(and
I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this
really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc
allows
slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation.
It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily
on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such
like...
MH
On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico
wrote:
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist
with
this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language).
Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that
there
abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who
will
never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform
is
the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The
format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very
little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity
postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k
actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff
of
commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary
objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than
they
should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible.
Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly
embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now
a
brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as
old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your
ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to
not
participate in your scheme.
RA
From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor
<[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM
To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>;
lutelist Net
<[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Hi Cathy,
I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus
FB.
Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you
>a
better answer. Here are my sanswers:
The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we
have
access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer
questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute
player,
but
the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is
not
the place for promoting you CD or next concert.
FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think
Larry
spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a
younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I
hear
it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians
use
it
instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings
are
very short.
I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not
right
now.
We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but
nothing
recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the
lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address
for
future contacts. The
[LUTE] Re: My web site
On 04.09.20 15:19, ftribi...@gmail.com wrote: First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades! +1 Same from here! I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as we know it. +1000! What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages. Please, no. The difference between Facebook an Google in terms of data privacy are unfortunately pretty small (long gone are the times where Google where the good ones, sigh). Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
First all many thanks to Wayne for his great work in these decades! I totally agree about Facebook. It has nothing to do with the lute list as we know it. What about just a simple Google discussion group? It is very easy to maintain, it is free and can keep all the past messages. Actually, it can be configured as a moderated (if needed) mailing list, but in addition it offers a web interface to browse conversations and old messages. Francesco > -Messaggio originale- > Da: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Per conto di Martyn Hodgson > Inviato: venerdì 4 settembre 2020 14:14 > A: LSA Editor ; LSA President > ; lutelist Net > ; Ron Andrico > Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: My web site > >Well said Ron, >The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited >for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and >for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned' >(and >I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this >really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc >allows >slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation. >It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily >on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such >like... >MH > >On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico > wrote: > I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist >with > this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). > Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that >there > abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who >will > never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform >is > the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The > format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very > little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity > postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k > actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff >of > commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary > objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than >they > should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. > Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly > embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now >a > brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as > old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your > ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to >not > participate in your scheme. > RA > From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor > <[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> > Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM > To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; >lutelist Net > <[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site > Hi Cathy, > I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus >FB. > Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you >a > better answer. Here are my sanswers: > The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we > have > access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer > questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute >player, > but > the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is >not > the place for promoting you CD or next concert. > FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think >Larry > spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a > younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I > hear > it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians >use > it > instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings >are > very short. > I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not >right > now. > We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but > nothing > recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the > lutelist using their
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Well said Ron,
The lutelist format and its arrangement is clearly much more suited
for the proper and serious, but still enjoyable, exchange of views and
for sharing information. It may be seen by some as 'old fashioned'
(and
I'm not sure what this really means in this context anyway) but is this
really a valid judgement for what it aims to do. The use of email etc
allows
slightly more considered communications than the need for adulation.
It would be a backward step to employ a format which focuses primarily
on social media, advertising and the number of hits, 'likes' and such
like...
MH
On Friday, 4 September 2020, 13:02:17 BST, Ron Andrico
wrote:
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist
with
this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language).
Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that
there
abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who
will
never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform
is
the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The
format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very
little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity
postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k
actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff
of
commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary
objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than
they
should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible.
Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly
embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now
a
brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as
old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your
ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to
not
participate in your scheme.
RA
From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor
<[3]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM
To: LSA President <[4]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>;
lutelist Net
<[5]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site
Hi Cathy,
I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus
FB.
Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you
a
better answer. Here are my sanswers:
The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we
have
access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer
questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute
player,
but
the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is
not
the place for promoting you CD or next concert.
FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think
Larry
spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a
younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I
hear
it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians
use
it
instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings
are
very short.
I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not
right
now.
We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but
nothing
recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the
lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address
for
future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions
to
my
lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the
lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to
take
the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom,
dick
and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti.
David
Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years.
When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't
selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale
after
about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs
looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is
posting
new instruments for sale.
We would also need to make sure people know where to find both
the
LL
and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going
to
his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS
site.
Nancy
I agree. Now t
[LUTE] Re: My web site
I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist with this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that there abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who will never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform is the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff of commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than they should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now a brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to not participate in your scheme. RA From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of LSA Editor Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM To: LSA President ; lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site Hi Cathy, I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus FB. Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you a better answer. Here are my sanswers: The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we have access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute player, but the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is not the place for promoting you CD or next concert. FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think Larry spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I hear it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians use it instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings are very short. I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not right now. We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but nothing recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address for future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions to my lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to take the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, dick and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. David Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale after about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is posting new instruments for sale. We would also need to make sure people know where to find both the LL and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going to his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS site. Nancy I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should not piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should probably not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or on Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and be a benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from the tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. The same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very least we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has completed the transaction. I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be good for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but maybe this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. These two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter here in Boston, but the pandemic
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Sorry that was meant to be a private email!! Nancy Hi Cathy, I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus FB. Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you a better answer. Here are my sanswers: The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we have access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute player, but the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is not the place for promoting you CD or next concert. FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think Larry spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I hear it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians use it instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings are very short. I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not right now. We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but nothing recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address for future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions to my lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to take the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, dick and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. David Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale after about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is posting new instruments for sale. We would also need to make sure people know where to find both the LL and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going to his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS site. Nancy I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing — Whew! We should not piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should probably not piss of anyone! — we can proceed. What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or on Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and be a benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from the tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. The same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very least we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has completed the transaction. I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be good for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but maybe this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. These two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter here in Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know. At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our new Board members will either step up or know someone who could be asked. Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this. Cathy Catherine Liddell President/Chairman of the Board [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0export=download] [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor <[2]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> wrote: I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale list going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the old lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his archive of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure from the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else. I think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself, that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text and contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new lute list very quickly. I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around for so long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward Wayne's old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David van Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never looked at his treatises - again it is less interesting. Nancy HI Cathy Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess I was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My intention was that someone, (perhaps the
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Hi Cathy, I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus FB. Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you a better answer. Here are my sanswers: The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we have access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute player, but the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is not the place for promoting you CD or next concert. FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think Larry spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I hear it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians use it instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings are very short. I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not right now. We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but nothing recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address for future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions to my lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to take the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, dick and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. David Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale after about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is posting new instruments for sale. We would also need to make sure people know where to find both the LL and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going to his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS site. Nancy I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should not piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should probably not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or on Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and be a benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from the tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. The same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very least we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has completed the transaction. I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be good for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but maybe this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. These two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter here in Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know. At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our new Board members will either step up or know someone who could be asked. Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this. Cathy Catherine Liddell President/Chairman of the Board [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0export=download] [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor <[2]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> wrote: I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale list going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the old lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his archive of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure from the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else. I think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself, that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text and contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new lute list very quickly. I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around for so long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward Wayne's old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David van Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never looked at his treatises - again it is less interesting. Nancy HI Cathy Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess I was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My intention was that someone, (perhaps the LSA), could start their own list, using their own software and computers, and announce it on my list when they were set up.
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Well done, congratulations and a big thank you for making your work available. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 4 July 2015 at 12:27, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: For those of you who are interested... My web site - [4]www.monicahall2.wordpress.com now has on it an extended study of Corbetta - the best of all in the words of Sanz and in my estimation too. The highlights of this are 1. An extended biography - I have collected together all the information currently known about his life and added a few snippets which I myself have discovered in the process and tried to set it out in coherant chronological order. 2. A parellel translation of the Italian and French prefaces from La guitarre royale (1671) with his tablature example set out in a way which makes it possible to compare the two. It also includes translations of the instructions to the player from his four other books with examples and commentary. You will find it by clicking on the heading Corbetta on the home page preceding the edition of his manuscript pieces. It is all free!Not sure that Ron would approve of that after reading his last post but not belonging to the musical establishment or being part of anyone's business model this is the only way I can make my efforts available - not to mention expose them to publis scrutiny. Feel free to comment - but I am not likely to update this monumental work any time soon. But a monumental vote of Thanks to Rob who has made it all possible. Regards to all Monica [5]www.monicahall2.wordpress.com To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.monicahall2.wordpress.com/ 5. http://www.monicahall2.wordpress.com/ 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Monica, I'm flattered that you read our blog post at all. For the record, I am less concerned about noted scholars sharing the results of their work than I am about having to compete for gigs with amateur lutenists who actually pay to play. Thank you for sharing your impressive work in this format. Since academic publishing has gone down the tubes, the web has become a viable resource for making such important scholarship available. But I am a dinosaur who knows how to use a library, and I still like to read books. RA Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 11:27:02 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] My web site It is all free! Not sure that Ron would approve of that after reading his last post but not belonging to the musical establishment or being part of anyone's business model this is the only way I can make my efforts available - not to mention expose them to publis scrutiny. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: My web site
Dear Monica, the web address you gave works, but I created for you an easier one to remember: http://monicahall.co.uk Best wishes, Rob www.robmackillop.net On 4 Jul 2015, at 11:27, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: For those of you who are interested... My web site - www.monicahall2.wordpress.com now has on it an extended study of Corbetta - the best of all in the words of Sanz and in my estimation too. The highlights of this are 1. An extended biography - I have collected together all the information currently known about his life and added a few snippets which I myself have discovered in the process and tried to set it out in coherant chronological order. 2. A parellel translation of the Italian and French prefaces from La guitarre royale (1671) with his tablature example set out in a way which makes it possible to compare the two. It also includes translations of the instructions to the player from his four other books with examples and commentary. You will find it by clicking on the heading Corbetta on the home page preceding the edition of his manuscript pieces. It is all free! Not sure that Ron would approve of that after reading his last post but not belonging to the musical establishment or being part of anyone's business model this is the only way I can make my efforts available - not to mention expose them to publis scrutiny. Feel free to comment - but I am not likely to update this monumental work any time soon. But a monumental vote of Thanks to Rob who has made it all possible. Regards to all Monica www.monicahall2.wordpress.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
