[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Thank you for this information Arthur.
You may need to re-login to access my site - or the server was down ...
The very short bass notes are found in fast arpeggios (sextoles) and I
doubt they are really meant to be played as actual 32nd notes - they are
more indicative of the difference in time between themselves and the
following note on the G staff. Rust did not bother padding the bass with
rests, so it is open to interpretation, though probably he did not
intend those bass notes to be sustained too long...
I have an inkling also that Rust may have transcribed from tablature to
notation in Rust 21 - I suggest - without proof - that the notation
transcriptions were made in the last part of his life from earlier
material, perhaps to clean up his desk and ensure his legacy. Rust 53,
though, clearly states the pieces were composed in 1791.
Anyone with a feel for stylistic differences between 1765 and 1795???
Good day,
Alain
On 3/17/19 1:47 PM, Arthur Ness wrote:
Dear Alain,
A copy of a 1980 edition of the lute and viola sonata* arrived on
Friday. I can't get on to your site to compare it today. I could32nd notes
yesterday. (". . . projects/view/5") P.S. have your message will
re-connect.
The ms copy** is unusual. It seems to be a kind of pointillistic
transcription from tablature. The notes that would sustain are often
transcribed as short notes. I think you extended them also, e.g., meas
35-40, 64-66, 77-79 bass has long notes (quarters or half notes) in my
print, but the ms has 16ths for the bass notes..
I need to get back to Sciurus about whom you asked. He's in theprobably
related manuscript 40151 (vol. 1) to 40150 (vol. 2). Both purchased in
1897 by Wilhelm Tappert from Antiquarian Liste in Leipzig, where
grandson Rust held forth as Thomas-Kantor.
--Arthur Ness
*Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, **Sonata für Viola und Klavier nach dem
Autograph (!) erstmalig herausgegeben von Wolfgang Sawodhy.**
(München: Verlag Walter Wollenweber, 1980). pp. 7 (score) + 3 (viola).
** https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226
452=PHYS_0002=DMDLOG_0001=overview-toc
-Original Message-
From: Alain Veylit
Cc: Lute List
Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2019 1:05 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn.
Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C
for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net -
here on scribd:
[1][1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-D
ur-
Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek:
[2][2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159
Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one
and
only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from
an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did
not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard
by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a
composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be
less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I
found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for
the lute!
Happy Sunday,
Alain
On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard
works
or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw
up
works similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust
pieces..
And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in
place of the Baryton...
Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable
gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute...
MH
On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit
[3]<[3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute +
violin/viola
may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are
now
available for viewing:
I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with
Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature
version
of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am
interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios
on
diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit
uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature
transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ...
The link to that is:
[4][4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
. You will need a login to view that pro
[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Dear Alain,
A copy of a 1980 edition of the lute and viola sonata* arrived on
Friday. I can't get on to your site to compare it today. I could
yesterday. (". . . projects/view/5") P.S. have your message will
re-connect.
The ms copy** is unusual. It seems to be a kind of pointillistic
transcription from tablature. The notes that would sustain are often
transcribed as short notes. I think you extended them also, e.g., meas
35-40, 64-66, 77-79 bass has long notes (quarters or half notes) in my
print, but the ms has 16ths for the bass notes..
I need to get back to Sciurus about whom you asked. He's in the
related manuscript 40151 (vol. 1) to 40150 (vol. 2). Both purchased in
1897 by Wilhelm Tappert from Antiquarian Liste in Leipzig, where
grandson Rust held forth as Thomas-Kantor.
--Arthur Ness
*Friedrich Wilhelm Rust, **Sonata für Viola und Klavier nach dem
Autograph (!) erstmalig herausgegeben von Wolfgang Sawodhy.**
(München: Verlag Walter Wollenweber, 1980). pp. 7 (score) + 3 (viola).
** https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226
452=PHYS_0002=DMDLOG_0001=overview-toc
-Original Message-
From: Alain Veylit
Cc: Lute List
Sent: Sun, Mar 17, 2019 1:05 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn.
Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C
for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net -
here on scribd:
[1][1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-D
ur-
Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek:
[2][2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159
Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one
and
only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from
an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did
not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard
by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a
composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be
less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I
found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for
the lute!
Happy Sunday,
Alain
On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard
works
or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw
up
works similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust
pieces..
And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in
place of the Baryton...
Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable
gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute...
MH
On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit
[3]<[3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute +
violin/viola
may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are
now
available for viewing:
I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with
Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature
version
of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am
interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios
on
diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit
uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature
transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ...
The link to that is:
[4][4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5
. You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can
put
you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app.
II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with
Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin
based
on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the
tablature
part from the Krakow 40150 MS.
The link to those is:
[5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7.
Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur
sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff
notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of
the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition
of
that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no?
There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions,
corrections, etc. if you chose to do so.
Alain
To get on or off this list see list information at
[6][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
The Krebs concerti will be edited by Stephan Olbertz. We worked on them some months ago and I think the edition will appear soon. Itâs a little bit tricky because of all the variants. Andreas > Am 17.03.2019 um 17:35 schrieb Alain Veylit : > > Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn. > > Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C > for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net - > here on scribd: > [1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur- > Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek: > [2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159 > > Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one and > only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from > an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did > not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard > by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a > composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be > less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I > found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for > the lute! > > Happy Sunday, > > Alain > > On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard works > or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw up > works similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust pieces.. > And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in > place of the Baryton... > Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable > gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute... > MH > > On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit > [3] wrote: > Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute + > violin/viola > may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now > available for viewing: > I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with > Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version > of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am > interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios > on > diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit > uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature > transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ... > The link to that is: > [4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 > . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put > you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app. > II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with > Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based > on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature > part from the Krakow 40150 MS. > The link to those is: > [5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7. > Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur > sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff > notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of > the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of > that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no? > There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions, > corrections, etc. if you chose to do so. > Alain > To get on or off this list see list information at > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. > https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-Krebs-WV-202 > 2. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159 > 3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com > 4. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 > 5. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7 > 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 lute.cor...@sunrise.ch --
[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Thanks for the suggestions, Martyn. Actually, I was wondering about the Johann Ludwig Krebs concerto in C for B. lute and strings. The score is widely available on the Net - here on scribd: [1]https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur- Krebs-WV-202 - or straight from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek: [2]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159 Anybody knows anything about this concerto? It seems to be the one and only lute piece in Krebs' production, and it is rather ambitious from an orchestral point of view: lute, 2 violins, viola and cello. I did not find a trace of a recording of it - Krebs was held in high regard by J.S. Bach and it s always odd to find the odd lute piece in a composer's output... The lute part is in tablature, so it should be less of a challenge than Rust from a transcription point of view. I found a modern edition of it, which has all the parts ... except for the lute! Happy Sunday, Alain On 3/17/19 2:53 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard works or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw up works similarly accommoating to the the late lute as the Rust pieces.. And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in place of the Baryton... Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute... MH On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit [3] wrote: Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute + violin/viola may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now available for viewing: I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios on diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ... The link to that is: [4]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app. II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature part from the Krakow 40150 MS. The link to those is: [5]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7. Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no? There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions, corrections, etc. if you chose to do so. Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.scribd.com/document/371003432/Krebs-Johann-Ludwig-C-Dur-Krebs-WV-202 2. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB00021159 3. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com 4. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 5. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
You may consider transcribing some of Haydn's wonderful keyboard works or violin and keyboard or piano trios - careful selection will throw up works similarly accommodating to the the late lute as the Rust pieces.. And, of course, some of the Baryton trios can work well with lute in place of the Baryton... Might also use the late eighteenth century fashionable gallichon/mandora too - instead of the 13 course Dm lute... MH On Saturday, 16 March 2019, 21:16:39 GMT, Alain Veylit wrote: Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute + violin/viola may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now available for viewing: I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios on diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ... The link to that is: [1]http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app. II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature part from the Krakow 40150 MS. The link to those is: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7. Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no? There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions, corrections, etc. if you chose to do so. Alain To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust - transcriptions of 21 and 53, I and II
Those of you interested in late 18th century Baroque lute + violin/viola may be interested in transcriptions of Rust sonatas I made that are now available for viewing: I. Sonata in C Major for lute and viola (Rust 21). I worked with Jean-Daniel Forget to see if we could get a playable tablature version of the lute part. The original MS is in grand-staff notation. I am interested in performers' feedback, particularly because of arpeggios on diapasons. Jean-Daniel thinks it is very feasible, I am still a bit uneasy with those. I don't think there is another tablature transcription of that sonata but perhaps there is ... The link to that is: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/5 . You will need a login to view that project. It is free and it can put you on the world map of lutenists, which is a fun little app. II. and III. I provided transcriptions, also in collaboration with Jean-Daniel, of the sonatas I (G) and II (Dm) for lute and violin based on the violin parts from the Berlin Staatsbibliothek and the tablature part from the Krakow 40150 MS. The link to those is: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/projects/view/7. Finally, I am currently still working on a transcription of the H-dur sonata -- that is a headache... The lute part is also in grand-staff notation and not at all obvious due to various problems. It is one of the "revised and improved" Rust sonatas... I found only one edition of that H-Dur sonata ... adapted for modern guitar. Sad, no? There is a comments field where you can leave your impressions, corrections, etc. if you chose to do so. Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust
Here's the sonata with viola d'alto. Perhaps you've seen it already. [1]http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB0001F7EC There are other pieces by Rust that use viola d'amore. There's a dissertation on Rust that includes a works list. By Rudolf Czach. 1927. []^[DEL: :DEL] Rebecca Hunt, the music librarian at the Boston Public Library sent the following: RH: "It turns out there are four sonatas for piano or lute with violin by Wilhelm Rust in the collection: 1. Sonate, Erste (G-dur) fur Pianoforte order Laute mit Violine 2. Sonate, Zweite (D-moll) fur Pianoforte order Laute mit Violine 3. Sonate, Dritte (C-dur) fur Pianoforte order Laute mit Violine 4. Sonate, Vierte (B-dur) fur Pianoforte order Laute mit Violine" RH: "Unfortunately, these items are currently inaccessible while staff prepare collections that will be impacted by upcoming renovation to Special Collections spaces at the Central Library, which includes Music material. Please feel free to check back in with us later next year and I'll be happy to update you on progress." AJN: These are the edition published in Hamburg by Hugo Pohl in 1892 (if I remember correctly). Rather elegantly done. There was also a song with lute accompaniment. When I was in Germany I tried several times to obtain a copy on ILL, and was unsuccessful. I started to believe the reference might have been to a lost 1792 edition (which would fit nicely with Rust's activity in Dessau.) Imagine my delight when I discovered the edition in the BPL. It must be the sole surviving copy. And now it's inaccessible. I wonder how it compares with the print used by Andi from Bremen. I've seen the score for the clavicordio sonata with imitation of timpani, etc., but don't remember where or when. It certainly looked like 20th-century music. I'll get to Sciurus shortly. It's a common pseudonym used for scolars with the family name Eichhorn. I noted a professor at the U. of Königsberg who used it. Arthur. -Original Message- From: Alain Veylit To: Arthur Ness ; lute.corner ; lute Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2019 9:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rust Thanks Arthur, I am very curious about Mr Scurius / Squirrel: how does he fit in the story? The idea behind the Wilhem Rust "deception" was to make Friedrich Rust appear to be the missing link between Mozart and Beethoven, which lute music would not necessarily or obviously support ... Rust also committed a Sonata per il Clavicordio all imitazione de Timpani del Salterio e del Liuto that sounds intriguing. His compositions for tangent piano, nail violin and in imitation of the salterio don't seem particularly romantic to me - may be closer to mid-20th century post-modern experiments integrating type-writers and car horns... Was he the last renowned composer to compose sonatas for the lute ? On 1/4/19 4:50 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: Hi, Alain and Andi, This is involved. It even goes back to Bach in the case of both like-named father and grandson. I found several references to an edition of three or four Rust sonatas for lute and violin, publ. 1892. I sent ILL's galore when I was in Germany. ILL service is super in Germany, but I got no results. No one had such a print. Perhaps a mistaken date. 1798 would fit perfectly for the father. So, could it be a lost print from 1798? I also examined the manuscripts in Berlin and noticed some blue crayon editorial marks. And recall the sonata with viola. Can't recall if it was printed. The print also had a song with lute accompaniment, and a note (I think) that it was sung when the patrons went gondola rowing around the palace. D'Indy was the guy who spilled the beans. "Der Fall Rust" was the modest title of the article. (Sounds so well with English word Fall) Of yes, a lutenist named Sciurius (Mr. Squirell) was also involved. His manuscript is in Berlin also (cover: C. A. A. Pr d'A / 1740). Later, Alain and Andi --Arthur. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB0001F7EC 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust Viola & lute Sonata
the photostat that I looked at the LincolnCenter library 30 yeaqrs ago was a different sonata, with a slow movement in minor. Same handwriting I think. RT On 1/7/2019 2:20 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: He's a digital copy (grandson scribe???). https://digital.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/werkansicht?PPN=PPN882226452 =PHYS_0001= -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust
Dear Alain and Andi, I'll get back to this topic in due course. It has been so may years ago, that I have to find and resurrect my notes. I'll get around to Mr. Sciurus at that time. Friedrich Wilhelm Rust's grandson, Thomaskantor Wilhelm Rust (d. 1892), was indeed involved with spurious versions of his works, mainly piano sonatasâââfrom what I can tell. According to the grandson, "Here the fancy, now free, now severe, takes its flight and reaches heights never touched before, [as] . . . the poetic ideas in their profound pregnancy, burst forth under the influence of egregious events in the life of the composer." When the controversy was raised around 1914 d'Indy published the elder musician's sonatas, rather modest pieces in scope. One might say the reworkings demonstrate a "missing link" between Haydn and, not Beethoven, but Liszt (!!!). The originals are best suited for a novice player with little experience, other than a few lessons with, say, J. S. Bach (!!!). Wilhelm probably little knew how close his grandfather was to old Bach. He, himself was very close in his own way, since he was a major editor in the Bach Gesellschaft Ausgabe, and edited a whopping 26 volumes. You are doubtlessly correct when you suggest that lute pieces would hardly be appropriate for such "improvement." That was the problem I faced when I first became involved with the Rust sonatas. There were many references to the godson's edition, supposedly published in Hamburg: H. Pohle/Bremen: Schweers & Haake, 1892. German ILL services are excellent, but I never found a copy. I could only concluded that the references might refer to a lost print. Little did I know. When I returned home I found a copy in the Boston Public Library! But I haven't compared its readings with other sources, although that appears to be what Andi has doneâand more! There were several other prominent lutenists still active at the time. All were gone by 1815: J. A. F. Weiss (a son of SLW), Johann Reichardt (d. 1815) and Christian Gottlieb Scheidler (d. 1814). Arthur []^[DEL: :DEL] []^[DEL: :DEL] -Original Message- From: Alain Veylit To: Arthur Ness ; lute.corner ; lute Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2019 9:43 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rust Thanks Arthur, I am very curious about Mr Scurius / Squirrel: how does he fit in the story? The idea behind the Wilhem Rust "deception" was to make Friedrich Rust appear to be the missing link between Mozart and Beethoven, which lute music would not necessarily or obviously support ... Rust also committed a Sonata per il Clavicordio all imitazione de Timpani del Salterio e del Liuto that sounds intriguing. His compositions for tangent piano, nail violin and in imitation of the salterio don't seem particularly romantic to me - may be closer to mid-20th century post-modern experiments integrating type-writers and car horns... Was he the last renowned composer to compose sonatas for the lute ? On 1/4/19 4:50 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: Hi, Alain and Andi, This is involved. It even goes back to Bach in the case of both like-named father and grandson. I found several references to an edition of three or four Rust sonatas for lute and violin, publ. 1892. I sent ILL's galore when I was in Germany. ILL service is super in Germany, but I got no results. No one had such a print. Perhaps a mistaken date. 1798 would fit perfectly for the father. So, could it be a lost print from 1798? I also examined the manuscripts in Berlin and noticed some blue crayon editorial marks. And recall the sonata with viola. Can't recall if it was printed. The print also had a song with lute accompaniment, and a note (I think) that it was sung when the patrons went gondola rowing around the palace. D'Indy was the guy who spilled the beans. "Der Fall Rust" was the modest title of the article. (Sounds so well with English word Fall) Of yes, a lutenist named Sciurius (Mr. Squirell) was also involved. His manuscript is in Berlin also (cover: C. A. A. Pr d'A / 1740). Later, Alain and Andi --Arthur. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust
Thanks Arthur, I am very curious about Mr Scurius / Squirrel: how does he fit in the story? The idea behind the Wilhem Rust "deception" was to make Friedrich Rust appear to be the missing link between Mozart and Beethoven, which lute music would not necessarily or obviously support ... Rust also committed a Sonata per il Clavicordio all imitazione de Timpani del Salterio e del Liuto that sounds intriguing. His compositions for tangent piano, nail violin and in imitation of the salterio don't seem particularly romantic to me - may be closer to mid-20th century post-modern experiments integrating type-writers and car horns... Was he the last renowned composer to compose sonatas for the lute ? On 1/4/19 4:50 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: Hi, Alain and Andi, This is involved. It even goes back to Bach in the case of both like-named father and grandson. I found several references to an edition of three or four Rust sonatas for lute and violin, publ. 1892. I sent ILL's galore when I was in Germany. ILL service is super in Germany, but I got no results. No one had such a print. Perhaps a mistaken date. 1798 would fit perfectly for the father. So, could it be a lost print from 1798? I also examined the manuscripts in Berlin and noticed some blue crayon editorial marks. And recall the sonata with viola. Can't recall if it was printed. The print also had a song with lute accompaniment, and a note (I think) that it was sung when the patrons went gondola rowing around the palace. D'Indy was the guy who spilled the beans. "Der Fall Rust" was the modest title of the article. (Sounds so well with English word Fall) Of yes, a lutenist named Sciurius (Mr. Squirell) was also involved. His manuscript is in Berlin also (cover: C. A. A. Pr d'A / 1740). Later, Alain and Andi --Arthur. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm
Thanks Andreas, Here is the metadata information for the manuscript I have downloaded - It does not seem to fit the two sources you mention since the lute part is in notation. I made a mistake in my first message: the sonata is for viola d'alto - not viola d'amore. It looks to me more like an 18th century MS than late 19th, and fairly similar to the Dalla Casa MS in style. There are some penciled in corrections - perhaps from Wilhem. Let me know your thoughts, I am curious! Alain PPN: PPN882226452 PURL: http://resolver.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/SBB0001F7EC Titel: Sonaten; lute, vla; C-Dur; CzaR 96 Autor/in: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm Weitere Person: Friedrich Wilhelm Rust Entstehungsjahr: 1775 RISM_A2-Nummer: 1001007809 Signatur: Mus.ms.autogr. Rust, F. W. 21 N Kategorie: Musiknoten,Musikhandschriften Projekt: Musikhandschriften digital Strukturtyp: manuscript Anzahl gescannter Seiten: 7 Lizenz: CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 International On 1/3/19 11:46 PM, Andreas Schlegel wrote: I made in 1988/89 a reconstruction of the three sonatas for violin (flute) and lute (still available). Below you will find the text from my edition, published in 1998. The sonata for viola is not edited (re-intabulated) for lute. Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739 -1796) Three Sonatas for Lute and obligato Violin/Flute reconstructed by Andreas Schlegel 1. The riddle and its solution The present edition is unusual in some respects. The reason for this is that there is no known source of these three sonatas which stems from the time of the composer Friedrich Wilhelm Rust and which transmits the music in an „incorrupt“ state. The trail leading to this edition proceeds via „fraud“ and reconstruction. But, one thing at a time... The Sources and their History Two sources of these sonatas survive: 1. Manuscript „Rust 53“ (Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin). This contains the lute part, notated in tablature, and the violin part, written in standard notation, of all three sonatas. 2. „Ms. 40150“ (formerly in the Preussische Staatsbibliothek; now held by the Jagiellonska Library, Krakow). This contains, among other things, merely the lute part, notated in tablature, of the first two sonatas. „Rust 53“ probably remained in the possession of Rust’s family after the composer’s death, and thus was handed down to his grandson Wilhelm Rust, cantor of the Thomas Church in Leipzig and music researcher. This Wilhelm Rust was probably the author of the article „Tabulatur“ in the „Musicalisches Konversations-Lexikon“ by Mendel and Reissmann published in 1878. The first 17 measures of Friedrich Wilhelm Rust’s second sonata appear there as an example of lute tablature. In 1892, the three sonatas were published in Wilhelm Rust’s arrangement for piano and violin by Schweers & Harke of Bremen. The strange thing about the 1892 edition and about the present condition of the source „Rust 53“ is that the lute part is virtually unplayable; long passages are completely unidiomatic. Stranger yet: the 1892 tablature part is no longer the same one used as an illustration in Mendel and Reissmann’s lexicon. Thus, „Rust 53“ was changed extensively after 1878. Voices were added, the texture was made more dense and, to some extent, strongly romanticized. Strangest of all, these radical changes were penned into the original tablature-manuscript - with all the effort involved, it being a matter of hundreds of careful erasures and insertions! Two persons come into question as arranger: either the then-owner of the source Wilhelm Rust, who thus would have carried out the changes sometime between 1878 and his death in May 1892, or an unknown person who carried them out sometime after their appearance in Rust’s edition. According to the latter hypothesis, it would seem that the intervention in „Rust 53“ was intended to mask the difference between the original manuscript and Wilhelm Rust’s piano edition. One can imagine these arrangements in the context of the „Rust case“: Wilhelm Rust wanted to use the „revised“ editions of his grandfather’s works to present him as Beethoven’s predecessor. This fraud was not discovered until 1912/13, when Ernst Neufeldt noticed it. Although it seems likely that Wilhelm Rust was the author of this arrangement and thus the „counterfeiter“ of the source „Rust 53“, it is not possible at the moment ! to claim this for sure. However, there does exist the previously-mentioned second source. „Ms. 40150“. As the present author pointed out in his article „Zur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wilhelm Rust“ („Concerning the re-edition of the sonatas for lute and obligato violin/flute by Friedrich Wilhelm Rust“) in Gitarre und Laute 6/1989, pp. 41-47, the manuscript „Rust 53“, at least as far as the lute part of Sonatas 1 and 2 is concerned, is probably a
[LUTE] Re: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm
I made in 1988/89 a reconstruction of the three sonatas for violin (flute) and lute (still available). Below you will find the text from my edition, published in 1998. The sonata for viola is not edited (re-intabulated) for lute. Friedrich Wilhelm Rust (1739 -1796) Three Sonatas for Lute and obligato Violin/Flute reconstructed by Andreas Schlegel 1. The riddle and its solution The present edition is unusual in some respects. The reason for this is that there is no known source of these three sonatas which stems from the time of the composer Friedrich Wilhelm Rust and which transmits the music in an âincorruptâ state. The trail leading to this edition proceeds via âfraudâ and reconstruction. But, one thing at a time... The Sources and their History Two sources of these sonatas survive: 1. Manuscript âRust 53â (Staatsbibliothek Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin). This contains the lute part, notated in tablature, and the violin part, written in standard notation, of all three sonatas. 2. âMs. 40150â (formerly in the Preussische Staatsbibliothek; now held by the Jagiellonska Library, Krakow). This contains, among other things, merely the lute part, notated in tablature, of the first two sonatas. âRust 53â probably remained in the possession of Rustâs family after the composerâs death, and thus was handed down to his grandson Wilhelm Rust, cantor of the Thomas Church in Leipzig and music researcher. This Wilhelm Rust was probably the author of the article âTabulaturâ in the âMusicalisches Konversations-Lexikonâ by Mendel and Reissmann published in 1878. The first 17 measures of Friedrich Wilhelm Rustâs second sonata appear there as an example of lute tablature. In 1892, the three sonatas were published in Wilhelm Rustâs arrangement for piano and violin by Schweers & Harke of Bremen. The strange thing about the 1892 edition and about the present condition of the source âRust 53â is that the lute part is virtually unplayable; long passages are completely unidiomatic. Stranger yet: the 1892 tablature part is no longer the same one used as an illustration in Mendel and Reissmannâs lexicon. Thus, âRust 53â was changed extensively after 1878. Voices were added, the texture was made more dense and, to some extent, strongly romanticized. Strangest of all, these radical changes were penned into the original tablature-manuscript - with all the effort involved, it being a matter of hundreds of careful erasures and insertions! Two persons come into question as arranger: either the then-owner of the source Wilhelm Rust, who thus would have carried out the changes sometime between 1878 and his death in May 1892, or an unknown person who carried them out sometime after their appearance in Rustâs edition. According to the latter hypothesis, it would seem that the intervention in âRust 53â was intended to mask the difference between the original manuscript and Wilhelm Rustâs piano edition. One can imagine these arrangements in the context of the âRust caseâ: Wilhelm Rust wanted to use the ârevisedâ editions of his grandfatherâs works to present him as Beethovenâs predecessor. This fraud was not discovered until 1912/13, when Ernst Neufeldt noticed it. Although it seems likely that Wilhelm Rust was the author of this arrangement and thus the âcounterfeiterâ of the source âRust 53â, it is not possible at the moment to claim this for sure. However, there does exist the previously-mentioned second source. âMs. 40150â. As the present author pointed out in his article âZur Neuausgabe der Sonaten für Laute und obligate Violine/Flöte von Friedrich Wilhelm Rustâ (âConcerning the re-edition of the sonatas for lute and obligato violin/flute by Friedrich Wilhelm Rustâ) in Gitarre und Laute 6/1989, pp. 41-47, the manuscript âRust 53â, at least as far as the lute part of Sonatas 1 and 2 is concerned, is probably a copy of the manuscript âMs. 40150â. According to a note by Wilhelm Rust, âMs. 40150â was unknown until January 1892 at least. It was not until 1897 that the music researcher and lute connoisseur Wilhelm Tappert bought this manuscript in a antiquarian book store. The source went from Tappert to the former Royal Library in Berlin. In 1944 it was transferred for safekeeping to Fürstenstein; thenceforth it was considered, in the West at least, as missing. Not until a few years ago, in 19! 88, did the present editor succeed in finding the manuscript in the Biblioteka Jagiellonska in Krakow. This in turn made it possible to compare the original (âMs. 40150â) and the counterfeit (âRust 53â). This comparison and its consequences will now be exemplified on the basis of the lute part of the second movement of the second sonata: Let us begin with the more or less usual editorial interventions: the provision of dynamic markings and articulation signs, realization of
[LUTE] Re: Rust, Friedrich Wilhelm
I looked at its facsimile at the Lincoln center library 25 years ago, but I remember little. The slow movement looked interesting. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > On Jan 3, 2019, at 7:56 PM, Alain Veylit wrote: > > Anyone knows anything about a Sonata per liuto et viola d'amore (C Major) by > Friedrich Wilhelm Rust? There is a facsimile of the score in Berlin with both > parts in notation - I am just wondering about the quality of the music. I am > not the only one, and there is a nice controversy about his works that may > have been "modernized" by his grand son, Wilhem Rust, that involved Debussy > and Vincent D'Indy among others. Friedrich Wilhelm wrote music for the > tangent piano, as well as violin, harp and oboe. He also wrote a Sonata for > Violin and Lute (No.2) in d minor according to YouTube. > (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv5Ol1VoeUE) > > Thanks for your tips and arcane but shared knowledge. > > Alain > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
