[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Martin and Miles,
   There is another alternative: for theorbos with octave basses one could
   employ an octave disposition on the final fingered course (ie the
   sixth) - after all, this is how lutes were generally strung in this
   period.  This would smooth the aural transition from stopped sixth to
   open seventh course.
   And perhaps a high octave sound on the bourdons was something the Old
   Ones enjoyed anyway?  - so a, to modern ears, intrusive seventh course
   octave may have been perfectly satisfactory to them.  Shades, of
   course, of the octave re-entrant tuning of guitars of the
   period
   MH
 __

   From: Miles Dempster <miles.demps...@gmail.com>
   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 16:24
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   Would it be an acceptable solution, for the 7th course, to make an
   exception and use an octave string whose density is less than that of
   gut? A nylon octave would have a thickness of .4mm or more. In the
   grand scheme of things would it sound out of place in comparison to the
   remaining diapasons with their gut octaves?
   Miles
   > On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:02 AM, Martin Shepherd
   <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
   >
   > The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
   the transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going
   to be.  Good luck, Magnus!
   >
   > BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
   could share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
   >
   > Martin
   >
   >
   > ---
   > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   > [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Thank you, Andreas !

Jean-Marie

--
 
>Four pieces are in the lute book of Hessen-Homburg. The actual owner of this 
>book is not known and I don’t have a copy. 
>One piece is in F-Pn Rés. Vmb. ms. 7, p. 223 „Les Plaisirs de Gautier mis par 
>hiret“
>
>I have this informations from François-Pierre Goy.
>
>Ballard printed an anthology in 1707 with music by Gautier de Marseille, but 
>it’s not in Gallica.
>
>All the best,
>
>Andreas
>
>> Am 13.12.2017 um 16:10 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:
>> 
>> Andreas, 
>> I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. 
>> de Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ?
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Jean-Marie
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>>> Here an important text on the picture by Puget:
>>> 
>>> Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, 
>>> Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127.
>>> 
>>> Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir 
>>> de musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le 
>>> prétendait, ou même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. 
>>> Lulli er Quinault sont morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la 
>>> reine, se trouvait dans une semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de 
>>> Provençaux et les circonstances du tableau, la type des personnages, les 
>>> gestes confirment cette hypothèse. Des amis de Lierre et François? On 
>>> connaît par les témoignanges de son petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien 
>>> amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne s’étonnera pas de trouver chez 
>>> François une précision rigoureuse dans la représentation des 
>>> instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait aussi identifier 
>>> les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches de Mms Colliard 
>>> et Cheilan-Cambolin.
>>> Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne 
>>> peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, 
>>> Jean-Baptiste Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de 
>>> l’opéra de Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à 
>>> danser tenant la pochette propre à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas 
>>> Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande bande de violons 
>>> de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene 
>>> Colliard d’une représentation du Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte 
>>> aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien qui accorde son basse de violon, trop 
>>> jeune pour être François, alors âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être 
>>> Joseph Campra, frère cadet d’André Campra, qui fit carrière à 
>>> l’opéra de Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. 
>>> Reste le joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Pu!
>> get, comme on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne!
>>> serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de 
>>> Marseille? …
>>> 
>>> From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme 
>>> arrangements for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I 
>>> know:
>>> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 
>>> <http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181>
>>> 
>>> Andreas
>>> 
>>>> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
>>>> <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>>> 
>>>>  Martin,
>>>>  The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
>>>>  rgds
>>>>  Martyn
>>>>  [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>>>> 
>>>>   [google.png]
>>>> 
>>>> Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>>>>__
>>>> 
>>>>  From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>>>>  To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>>  Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
>>>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
>>>>  The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
>>>>  the
>>>>  transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
>>>>  be.  Good 

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Miles Dempster]

Would it be an acceptable solution, for the 7th course, to make an exception 
and use an octave string whose density is less than that of gut? A nylon octave 
would have a thickness of .4mm or more. In the grand scheme of things would it 
sound out of place in comparison to the remaining diapasons with their gut 
octaves?


Miles




> On Dec 13, 2017, at 5:02 AM, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the 
> transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to be.  
> Good luck, Magnus!
> 
> BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could 
> share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Andreas Schlegel]

Four pieces are in the lute book of Hessen-Homburg. The actual owner of this 
book is not known and I don’t have a copy. 
One piece is in F-Pn Rés. Vmb. ms. 7, p. 223 „Les Plaisirs de Gautier mis 
par hiret“

I have this informations from François-Pierre Goy.

Ballard printed an anthology in 1707 with music by Gautier de Marseille, but 
it’s not in Gallica.

All the best,

Andreas

> Am 13.12.2017 um 16:10 schrieb Jean-Marie Poirier <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>:
> 
> Andreas, 
> I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. de 
> Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ?
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Jean-Marie
> 
> 
> --
> 
>> Here an important text on the picture by Puget:
>> 
>> Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, 
>> Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127.
>> 
>> Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut 
>> s'agir de musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le 
>> prétendait, ou même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André 
>> Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort 
>> de la reine, se trouvait dans une semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt 
>> s’agir de Provençaux et les circonstances du tableau, la type des 
>> personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. Des amis de Lierre et 
>> François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son petit-fils 
>> l’acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne 
>> s’étonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision 
>> rigoureuse dans la représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. 
>> Mirimonde. On voudrait aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons 
>> en partant des approches de Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin.
>> Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne 
>> peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, 
>> Jean-Baptiste Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de 
>> l’opéra de Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le 
>> maître à danser tenant la pochette propre à sa profession pourrait 
>> être Nicolas Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande 
>> bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon exclure 
>> l’hypothèse de Luciene Colliard d’une représentation du 
>> Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien 
>> qui accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour être François, alors 
>> âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, frère cadet 
>> d’André Campra, qui fit carrière à l’opéra de 
>> Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. Reste le 
>> joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Pu!
> get, comme on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les 
> traits, ne!
>> serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de 
>> l’opéra de Marseille? …
>> 
>> From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme 
>> arrangements for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I 
>> know:
>> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 
>> <http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181>
>> 
>> Andreas
>> 
>>> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
>>> <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>> 
>>>  Martin,
>>>  The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
>>>  rgds
>>>  Martyn
>>>  [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>>> 
>>>   [google.png]
>>> 
>>> Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>>>__
>>> 
>>>  From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>>>  To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>  Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
>>>  Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
>>>  The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
>>>  the
>>>  transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
>>>  be.  Good luck, Magnus!
>>>  BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
>>>  could
>>>  share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
>>>  Martin
>>>  ---
>>>  This email h

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Andreas, 
I am very curious to know about the arrangments for lute of 5 pieces by G. de 
Marseille that you mention... Where are they preserved ?

All the best,

Jean-Marie


--
 
>Here an important text on the picture by Puget:
>
>Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, 
>Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127.
>
>Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir de 
>musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le prétendait, ou 
>même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont 
>morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la reine, se trouvait dans une 
>semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de Provençaux et les circonstances 
>du tableau, la type des personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. 
>Des amis de Lierre et François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son 
>petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne 
>s’étonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision rigoureuse dans la 
>représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait 
>aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches 
>de Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin.
>Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne 
>peut-on reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, Jean-Baptiste 
>Renaud ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de l’opéra de 
>Marseille? Au premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à danser tenant la 
>pochette propre à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas Besson (mort après 
>1700). Il fut aussi chef de la grande bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut 
>de toute façon exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene Colliard d’une 
>représentation du Roi Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu 
>protocollaire. Le musicien qui accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour 
>être François, alors âgé de trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, 
>frère cadet d’André Campra, qui fit carrière à l’opéra de Paris, de 
>1600 à 1727, comme basse de violon précisement. Reste le joueur de luth : 
>plutôt que Piere Pu!
 get, comme on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne!
>  serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de 
> Marseille? …
>
>From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme arrangements 
>for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I know:
>http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 
><http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181>
>
>Andreas
>
>> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
>> <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>> 
>>   Martin,
>>   The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
>>   rgds
>>   Martyn
>>   [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>> 
>>[google.png]
>> 
>>  Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
>> ______________________
>> 
>>   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>>   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>   Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
>>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
>>   The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
>>   the
>>   transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
>>   be.  Good luck, Magnus!
>>   BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
>>   could
>>   share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
>>   Martin
>>   ---
>>   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>   [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>>   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>   --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>   Visible links
>>   1. 
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY==X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
>>   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>>   Hidden links:
>>   5. 
>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%253A%252C7PrvozbPq_afYM%252C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY%3D=X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
>> 
>
>Andreas Schlegel
>Eckstr. 6
>CH-5737 Menziken
>Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
>Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
>lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
>
>
>
>
>--

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545 - Puget

[Andreas Schlegel]

Here an important text on the picture by Puget:

Marie-Christine Gloton: Pierre et François Puget. Peintre baroques, 
Aix-en-Provence (Edisud) 1985, p. 125-127.

Lucienne Collard a démontré de façon couvaincante qu'il ne peut s'agir de 
musiciens de la Cour, Lulli ou Quinault, comme la tradition le prétendait, ou 
même Lorenziani, comme l’a proposé André Tessier. Lulli er Quinault sont 
morts en 1687 et Lorenziani, depuis la mort de la reine, se trouvait dans une 
semi-retraite. Il semble plutôt s’agir de Provençaux et les circonstances 
du tableau, la type des personnages, les gestes confirment cette hypothèse. 
Des amis de Lierre et François? On connaît par les témoignanges de son 
petit-fils l’acitvité de musicien amateur de Pierre Puget et l’on ne 
s’étonnera pas de trouver chez François une précision rigoureuse dans la 
représentation des instruments, détaillee par A.-P. Mirimonde. On voudrait 
aussi identifier les personnages. Nous le tenterons en partant des approches de 
Mms Colliard et Cheilan-Cambolin.
Parmi les trois chanteurs qui signalent leurs coiffures fantaisistes ne peut-on 
reconnaître, comme le suggère Jeanne Cheilan-Cambolin, Jean-Baptiste Renaud 
ou Jean-Joseph Razibus, vedettes de la troupe de l’opéra de Marseille? Au 
premier plan, trois musiciens : le maître à danser tenant la pochette propre 
à sa profession pourrait être Nicolas Besson (mort après 1700). Il fut aussi 
chef de la grande bande de violons de Marseille. Il faut de toute façon 
exclure l’hypothèse de Luciene Colliard d’une représentation du Roi 
Soleil, impensable dans un contexte aussi peu protocollaire. Le musicien qui 
accorde son basse de violon, trop jeune pour être François, alors âgé de 
trente-sept ans, pourrait être Joseph Campra, frère cadet d’André Campra, 
qui fit carrière à l’opéra de Paris, de 1600 à 1727, comme basse de 
violon précisement. Reste le joueur de luth : plutôt que Piere Puget, comme 
on l’a supposé mais dont il n’a pas de tout les traits, ne!
  serait-ce pas Pierre Gautier (1642-1696), le créateur de l’opéra de 
Marseille? …

>From "Pierre Gaultier de Marseille“ we have 5 pieces in anonyme arrangements 
>for lute. Here’s the only digital soource of his works I know:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181 
<http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1104181>

Andreas

> Am 13.12.2017 um 13:22 schrieb Martyn Hodgson 
> <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
> 
>   Martin,
>   The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
>   rgds
>   Martyn
>   [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
> 
>[google.png]
> 
>  Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
> __
> 
>   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
>   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>   Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
>   The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
>   the
>   transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
>   be.  Good luck, Magnus!
>   BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
>   could
>   share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
>   Martin
>   ---
>   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>   [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   Visible links
>   1. 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY==X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
>   2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Hidden links:
>   5. 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%253A%252C7PrvozbPq_afYM%252C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY%3D=X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
> 

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Martin,
   The first (larger area) one is reasonably clear in this link
   rgds
   Martyn
   [1]Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search

[google.png]

  Puget Louis XIV musicians louvre - Google Search
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wednesday, 13 December 2017, 10:08
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before
   the
   transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to
   be.  Good luck, Magnus!
   BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they
   could
   share?  I only have a very indistinct one.
   Martin
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   Visible links
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https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Puget+Louis+XIV+musicians+louvre=isch=iu=1=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM%3A%2C7PrvozbPq_afYM%2C_=__vAu1C9rg1UtUjvZXIgdvAg3TXLY==X=0ahUKEwiT86PI_IbYAhWI7BQKHd8KA2QQ9QEIMDAA#imgrc=B7vkeYB5BOdmXM:
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   Hidden links:
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

The problem with having unisons on 7, 8, etc is how far to go before the 
transition to octaves, and how noticeable that transition is going to 
be.  Good luck, Magnus!


BTW, does anyone have a really good reproduction of the Puget they could 
share?  I only have a very indistinct one.


Martin


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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Magnus Andersson]

   Thanks Martyn,
   the problem that arised was to find strings long enough at this
   thinness. But a few string makers that I ´ve contacted can supply them
   in 1,5, 2,4 or 3 meters even though it ´s not part of their
   "regular" catalogue. But yes- I also believe that the Puget painting
   shows that double stringed diapasons on longer necked lutes did exist-
   he ´s so detailed
   in his work that we can see the different colours of the long strings.
   The first 7 courses are all in unison, and beginning wit the first long
   course (the 8th), the bass courses all have different colored strings.
   Best,
   Magnus

   On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

   Dear Magnus,
   I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
   octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
   octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension
   around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a
   plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
   This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
   diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at
   nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute
   first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
   octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
   However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this
   instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
   Longer basses may have been present originally.
   The famous Puget painting of Louis XIV's musicians (1687), sadly cuts
   off most of the theorbo upper peghead but one can do a bit of geometry
   and extend the strings upwards to a position where a reasonable
   seperation double course nut may be placed - on this basis   I roughly
   estimate a bass extension string length of the of 155 +/- 10, but this
   is, of course assuming Puget got it about right!
   MH
 __

   From: Magnus Andersson <[2]magnusl...@gmail.com>
   To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 11 December 2017, 16:26
   Subject: [LUTE] A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear collective wisdom,
 I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
 proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
 The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
 today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
 [1][5]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/
   MUSEE/0161799
 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
 six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
 and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
 It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
 into this present condition.
 The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
 of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
 0.40-0.42
 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
 1500 mm...
 Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
 Best wishes,
 Magnus Andersson
 --
   References
 1. [6]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/
   MUSEE/0161799
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   6. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Magnus Andersson]

   Dear Miles-
   thanks, I don ´t know why I didn ´t think of that! It is a good idea.
   It ´ll sure be a lot of experimenting in the beginning to find
   the "perfect" setup for this instrument, but I ´m so eager to try it
   out!
   Magnus

   On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Miles Dempster
   <[1]miles.demps...@gmail.com> wrote:

 If I were to string-up Magnus' double-strung diapasons, I wouldn't
 bother with octaves on the 7th (and probably 8th) course. At that
 length (130cm) and pitch they will sound bright enough. - just
 string them in unisons.
 Miles

   > On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Martin Shepherd
   <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
   >
   > Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
   >
   > When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the
   viability of the lowest basses (at say 130cm).   On a typical swan-neck
   lute, the lowest course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of
   around a'=392 and be perhaps 99cm long, so this might be a better
   comparison.   This comparison suggests that the 130cm bass on the
   theorbo would be fine.
   >
   > The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be
   viable (I can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but
   that implies .35mm for the high octave).   I've temporarily lost my
   string calculator, but Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems
   reasonable.   But .34mm is at least 20% thinner than the smallest
   diameter that we think the Old Ones could have made (we could be wrong
   about this, but even if such a string could be made it is hard to
   imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says).
   >
   > So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the
   upper octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course.
   >
   > Martin
   >
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References

   1. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   3. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Miles Dempster]

If I were to string-up Magnus’ double-strung diapasons, I wouldn’t bother with 
octaves on the 7th (and probably 8th) course. At that length (130cm) and pitch 
they will sound bright enough. - just string them in unisons.

Miles




> On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> Sorry I didn't make myself clear.
> 
> When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability of 
> the lowest basses (at say 130cm).  On a typical swan-neck lute, the lowest 
> course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 and be perhaps 
> 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison.  This comparison suggests 
> that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine.
> 
> The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be viable (I 
> can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but that implies 
> .35mm for the high octave).  I've temporarily lost my string calculator, but 
> Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems reasonable.  But .34mm is at least 
> 20% thinner than the smallest diameter that we think the Old Ones could have 
> made (we could be wrong about this, but even if such a string could be made 
> it is hard to imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says).
> 
> So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the upper 
> octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course.
> 
> Martin
> 
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> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

Sorry I didn't make myself clear.

When thinking about English theorbo, I was thinking about the viability 
of the lowest basses (at say 130cm).  On a typical swan-neck lute, the 
lowest course would be tuned to AA at a likely pitch of around a'=392 
and be perhaps 99cm long, so this might be a better comparison.  This 
comparison suggests that the 130cm bass on the theorbo would be fine.


The other issue is whether the 7th course octave is too thin to be 
viable (I can imagine a diameter of about .70mm for the low octave, but 
that implies .35mm for the high octave).  I've temporarily lost my 
string calculator, but Martyn Hodgson's estimate of .34mm seems 
reasonable.  But .34mm is at least 20% thinner than the smallest 
diameter that we think the Old Ones could have made (we could be wrong 
about this, but even if such a string could be made it is hard to 
imagine it being any use for anything, as Matthew says).


So it seems to me that Magnus' potential problem is how to string the 
upper octaves of the 7th (and also probably 8th) course.


Martin

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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Tristan von Neumann]

Here's a few scenarios:

- The musician had to sell his luxury car for a small one, but the lute 
did not fit into the baggage compartment.
- The musician had to downsize his apartment, now living in a small room 
under the roof the lute was too long for the low ceiling.
- the musician had a very elaborate playing style and members of the 
orchestra complained about getting hit by the bass neck and chipped in 
for a neck shortening

- ...



Am 12.12.2017 um 07:59 schrieb howard posner:



On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a 
splendid instrument.

Best,
Matthew

On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote:

OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has 
been mangled into something else.  What a shame.


And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just that 
way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a cornetto.

Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might  learn something by 
considering what it might have been.



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

 The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the
 strings and the vibrating string lenght in mt,  can predict when a
 string start to be 'not good enought'.

   I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not a denser
   versions (wound, loaded, gimped etc etc).
   Generally  speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a
   renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality,
   thus the octave is indispensable (Vihuela? In my opinion it had octaves
   on the 5 and 6 courses). The Working Index of a  6th course on a lute
   of 60cms at modern pitch is around 59 Hz/mt.
   So, if the last bass string of the extended neck is around the same
   value, an octave is necessary  (we have the same  working index of the
   6th course) .

   Which is the scale were the working index is same of the 6 course of a
   lute ?

   At the modern  'baroque' pitch of 415  the last bass note is a GG of
   46.25 Hz so:
   59/46.25= 1.27 mt
   In practice we can maybe say that, generally speacking when the
   extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain gut
start to be necessary  the use of octaves.
   Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is
   still welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut
   strings the  extended neck can be even  a bit shorter than that.
   What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision,  we
   are indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or
   bad is matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of
   the lutei s the right one (the 1st string is working close to the
   breakage or not?) .  I have  considered a pactical 'rule of thumb'
   having seen that  the 6th course had octaves  while the 5th is still
   matter of taste.
   Mimmo
   -Messaggio originale-
   Da: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   Per conto di sterling price
   Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27
   A: Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson
   <[4]magnusl...@gmail.com>; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be
   able
 to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based
   on
 the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might
   make
 it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it
   longer--but
 probably 120cm will do it.
 Thanks,
 Sterling
   __
 From: Martin Shepherd <[6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
 To: Magnus Andersson <[7]magnusl...@gmail.com>;
   "[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
 <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear Magnus and All,
 A few thoughts:
 I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
 found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
 shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
 In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
 recent
 experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
 instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
 string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
 the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
 been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
 If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
 which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
 whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
 The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
 consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
 from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
 irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
 state
 in which there were more than 6 courses.
 If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length
   for
 the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
 theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
 length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
 remains.
 Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout)
   there
 is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit
   jeu
 strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of
   the
 beast.
 Best wishes,
 Martin
 On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

   Dear collective wisdom,

   I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding

   proper str

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I disagree Matthew,
   Bear in mind that thin gut strings stretch and thus thin significantly
   when up to tension. So your 0.40 would be closer to 0.37 when up to
   pitch. I was basing tension calculations (as they ought to be for
   accuracy) on stretched/thinned strings: thus the 0.34mm string would be
   around 0.37 unstretched..  not a million miles from your 0.40mm
   unstretched!  Perhaps a matter of taste.
   For example, I employ an unstretched 0.40mm diamter plain gut on my G
   lute (@A415) with string length of 64cm (which is roughly equivalent to
   your ).40 unthinned at 60cm @A440) - but this follows the early advice
   to use bigger strings on bigger lutes which ensures a similar feel
   rather than he same tension.  I prefer 0.37mm on a small lute of 60cm.
   rgds
   Martyn
 __

   From: Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Tuesday, 12 December 2017, 11:55
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to
   find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string
   of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and
   if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that
   historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of
   such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate
   for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > Dear Magnus,
   >I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
   >octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
   >octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a
   tension
   >around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter
   of a
   >plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
   >This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
   >diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance
   lute (at
   >nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for
   lute
   >first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
   >octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
   >However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of
   this
   >instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
   >Longer basses may have been present originally.
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

There are two issues: the length and the diameter. It is not easy to 
find thin gauge gut strings long enough for a 130 cm diapason. A string 
of 0.34 is incredibly thin. I don't even know if they are available and 
if they are, they certainly wouldn't last long. I very much doubt that 
historical string makers were able to produce gut strings for lutes of 
such a small diameter. A gut string of 0.40 would be more appropriate 
for the top course of a renaissance lute in G at 60 cm.


Best,
Matthew

On 12/12/2017 12:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Dear Magnus,
I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension
around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a
plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at
nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute
first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this
instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
Longer basses may have been present originally.





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Magnus,
   I really don't see what the problem is: for a theorbo with doubled
   octave strung basses, if your highest pitched open 7th course bass
   octave is g (assuming a theorbo in nominal A), then for, say, a tension
   around 3.2KG (obviously less than if single strung) the diameter of a
   plain gut string of length 130cm is about 0.34mm.
   This size is readily available in gut and is, indeed, the sort of
   diameter required for the first course of a common renaissance lute (at
   nominal G). In short, the gut size available then, as now, for lute
   first course would have been equally available for the 7th course
   octave of the first bass of a short second necked theorbo.
   However, as Martin Shepherd points out, the present day state of this
   instrument may not be as it first left the maker's workshop.
   Longer basses may have been present originally.
   The famous Puget painting of Louis XIV's musicians (1687), sadly cuts
   off most of the theorbo upper peghead but one can do a bit of geometry
   and extend the strings upwards to a position where a reasonable
   seperation double course nut may be placed - on this basis  I roughly
   estimate a bass extension string length of the of 155 +/- 10, but this
   is, of course assuming Puget got it about right!
   MH
 __

   From: Magnus Andersson 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Monday, 11 December 2017, 16:26
   Subject: [LUTE] A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
 Dear collective wisdom,
 I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
 proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
 The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
 today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.

   [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179
   9
 It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
 six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
 and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
 It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
 into this present condition.
 The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
 of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
 0.40-0.42
 for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
 1500 mm...
 Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
 Best wishes,
 Magnus Andersson
 --
   References
 1.
   [2]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   2. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Dienstag, 12. Dezember 2017 10:17 CET, Martin Shepherd 
 schrieb: 
 
> It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace 
> had double basses.  I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this 
> instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda 
> Sayce, there must be others -  I wonder if they have any insights?

But didn't these instruments have bass strings of increasing length (like the 
so-called
flemish lutes). So the 7th chourse would not have the full extention length.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes







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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

It just occurred to me that the "English" theorbo as described by Mace 
had double basses.  I have no experience of trying to reconstruct this 
instrument, but some people do - David Van Edwards made one for Lynda 
Sayce, there must be others -  I wonder if they have any insights?


Martin


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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Magnus Andersson]

   Dear Howard, Matthew, Martin and Mimmo,
   thanks very much for your insightful comments.
   As we all know, lutes and theorboes were rebuilt- I ´d not use the word
   mangle here- throughout the history.
   Samuel Pepys gives us an example on the 25th of October 1661:
   [1]"Home on foot very discontented, in my way I calling at the
   Instrument maker, Hunt ´s, and there saw my lute, which is now almost
   done, it being to have a new neck to it and to be made to double
   strings."
   To me- what we here with Sellas, is a theorbo that was rebuilt, into
   what Howard is implying, an instrument that ought
   to be played. If the original neck was broken and thus remade, or
   remade for musical reasons, we may not know.
   I think we can exclude the thought of it being a German theorbo. All
   surviving instruments that could ´ve
   been used as German theorboes have single bass strings throughout. Also
   Baron tells us that the fingerboard strings are double,
   but the long basses single. So even though the bridge is German, the
   tuning could very well have been the old "standard" tuning in G or A.
   1,3 m long basses would in my opinion not cut it with single strings
   (if we think of plain gut as the original string of choice) in terms of
   power- thus the necessity of octaves.
   If the theorbo would be tuned in 415hz, and in A, the first long string
   would give us a breaking index of 1.3 m x 185 hz = 240,5 m.hz.
   If tuned in 392 hz, 227,5 m.hz. How would this sound? I think (and
   hope!), majestic. Perhaps like the theorbo that the musician of Louis
   XIV holds
   in his hands, in the painting of François Puget...
   Best,
   Magnus
   â

   --

References

   1. http://www.pepysdiary.com/encyclopedia/1023/


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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

I fully agree, Howard, that it is always interesting to explore how lutemaking 
developed and why certain instruments were modified to cater for changes in 
taste. There were clearly some very convincing conversions made of renaissance 
lutes for baroque lutenists, but wouldn't we have preferred that they start 
afresh so that we have both a renaissance lute and a baroque lute in their 
original state? What about all those historic lutes converted into 
hurdy-gurdies or 'lute-guitars' of one sort or another. We could also take into 
consideration the quality of these conversions, often blindly assuming that 
modern tastes and methods are better. Sometimes, as with harpsichords (of the 
Ruckers family in particular) the conversions have enabled the instruments to 
survive across the ages in one form or another but frequently so modified as to 
give us few clues regarding their original state.
Anyway, I do hope that Magnus gets the instrument he wants and finds suitable 
strings for the diapasons.
Best
Matthew




> On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:59, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just 
> that way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a 
> cornetto.  
> 
> Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might  learn something by 
> considering what it might have been.



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[howard posner]

> On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Matthew Daillie  
> wrote:
> 
> That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have been a 
> splendid instrument.
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote:
>> OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which has 
>> been mangled into something else.  What a shame.

And yet someone wanted to alter an expensive, splendid instrument in just that 
way, spending money that might have been spent on a courtesan or a cornetto.  

Maybe that person had an actual reason, and we might  learn something by 
considering what it might have been.



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Mimmo - Aquila Corde Armoniche]

The Working Index, that is the product between the frequency of the strings and 
the vibrating string lenght in mt,  can predict when a string start to be 'not 
good enought'.
I am considering here the case of a plain gut string, not the denser versions 
(wound, loaded, gimped etc etc).

Now, generally speacking, we know that, more or less, the 6th course of a 
renaissance lute can be considered the limit for the sound quality and the 
octave is indispensable (and what about the Vihuela? Well  in my opinion it had 
octaves on the 5 and 6 courses because the bass strings were those in use on 
Lutes). The Working Index of the  6th course is around 59 Hz/mt.
 So, if the last bass string of the extended neck exceed the value of  59 Hz/mt 
of Working Index  an octave is necessary like (same working index of the 6th 
course) .
At the modern  'baroque' pitch of 415  the last bass note is a GG of 46.25 Hz 
so:
59/46.25= 1.27 mt
In practice we can say that, generally speacking (generally speacking, ok?) 
when the extended neck start to be less than 1.20-1.30 mt and one uses plain 
gut  start to be necessary  the use of octaves. 
Of course, it is question of taste: some find that a dull sound is still 
welcome, other hate that. If one switch to roped catline gut strings the  
extended neck can be even  a bit shorter than that.
What it is important here is not to have a black or white vision,  we are 
indeed in a sort of grey area were to define if a sound is good or bad is 
matter of taste, which kind of strings and if the proportion of the lutei s the 
right one (the 1st string is working close to the breakage or not?) .  I have  
considered a pactical 'rule of thumb' having seen that  the 6th course had 
octaves  while the 5th is still matter of taste.
Mimmo


-Messaggio originale-
Da: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Per conto di 
sterling price
Inviato: lunedì 11 dicembre 2017 22:27
A: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Magnus Andersson 
<magnusl...@gmail.com>; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Oggetto: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

   Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able
   to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on
   the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make
   it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but
   probably 120cm will do it.
   Thanks,
   Sterling
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Magnus Andersson <magnusl...@gmail.com>; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   Dear Magnus and All,
   A few thoughts:
   I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
   found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
   shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
   In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
   recent
   experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
   instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
   string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
   the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
   been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
   If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
   which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
   whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
   The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
   consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
   from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
   irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
   state
   in which there were more than 6 courses.
   If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for
   the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
   theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
   length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
   remains.
   Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there
   is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu
   strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the
   beast.
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:
   >Dear collective wisdom,
   >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
   >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
   >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
   >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
   >
   [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[sterling price]

   Question--what is the longest a neck extension can be and still be able
   to have octave strings? I'm making a pegbox for a baroque lute based on
   the 14 course Hoffman pegbox--the original is 115.7cm and I might make
   it a bit longer. I wont bore you with the reason I want it longer--but
   probably 120cm will do it.
   Thanks,
   Sterling
 __

   From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   To: Magnus Andersson <magnusl...@gmail.com>; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 11:32 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545
   Dear Magnus and All,
   A few thoughts:
   I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately
   found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been
   shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.
   In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have
   recent
   experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian
   instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough
   string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about
   the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have
   been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).
   If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at
   which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to
   whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?
   The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely
   consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known
   from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely
   irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original
   state
   in which there were more than 6 courses.
   If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for
   the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant
   theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this
   length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle
   remains.
   Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there
   is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu
   strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the
   beast.
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:
   >Dear collective wisdom,
   >I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
   >proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
   >The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
   >today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
   >
   [1][1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/016179
   9
   >It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
   >six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
   >and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
   >It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
   >into this present condition.
   >The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper
   courses
   >of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
   >0.40-0.42
   >for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of
   ca.
   >1500 mm...
   >Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
   >Best wishes,
   >Magnus Andersson
   >
   >--
   >
   > References
   >
   >1.
   [2]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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References

   1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   2. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

That definitely appears to be the case. A shame indeed as it must have 
been a splendid instrument.


Best,
Matthew

On 11/12/2017 21:09, Martin Shepherd wrote:
OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) 
which has been mangled into something else.  What a shame.


M 





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

OK so we could be looking at a "normal" Italian theorbo (6x2, 8x1) which 
has been mangled into something else.  What a shame.


M

On 11/12/2017 20:54, Matthew Daillie wrote:

On 11/12/2017 20:31, Martin Shepherd wrote:
Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - 
does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German 
theorbo" (whatever that is)?  Also strange that the upper neck (as we 
would say) was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply 
being replaced. Perhaps we could be looking at a totally 
single-strung theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification.


Martin 


Sorry, yes, I meant to say the upper-neck peg box (not the lower-neck 
peg box) has been modified to accommodate the extra pegs (not fully 
compos mentis today, I've got a rotten cold).


Regarding the bridge, the curator (presumably Joël Dugot) describes it 
as being 'conçu dans la tradition germanique'. If it was converted 
into a so-called German theorbo (like the copy Hoppy had made for his 
latest recording of Bach's first three cello suites), that would mean 
the 7th course would be Ff rather than Gg, which would be easier to 
find a suitable octave string for (although the instrument would have 
14 rather than 13 courses, which is perhaps rather odd).


Not only has the instrument definitely undergone extensive 
modification but in addition (again according to the curator) the work 
was poorly executed.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

On 11/12/2017 20:31, Martin Shepherd wrote:
Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - 
does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German 
theorbo" (whatever that is)?  Also strange that the upper neck (as we 
would say) was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply 
being replaced.  Perhaps we could be looking at a totally 
single-strung theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification.


Martin 


Sorry, yes, I meant to say the upper-neck peg box (not the lower-neck 
peg box) has been modified to accommodate the extra pegs (not fully 
compos mentis today, I've got a rotten cold).


Regarding the bridge, the curator (presumably Joël Dugot) describes it 
as being 'conçu dans la tradition germanique'. If it was converted into 
a so-called German theorbo (like the copy Hoppy had made for his latest 
recording of Bach's first three cello suites), that would mean the 7th 
course would be Ff rather than Gg, which would be easier to find a 
suitable octave string for (although the instrument would have 14 rather 
than 13 courses, which is perhaps rather odd).


Not only has the instrument definitely undergone extensive modification 
but in addition (again according to the curator) the work was poorly 
executed.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

Thanks, Matthew - the plot thickens! You say "German-style" bridge - 
does that mean it might have been turned into a massive "German theorbo" 
(whatever that is)?  Also strange that the upper neck (as we would say) 
was modified to accommodate more pegs rather than simply being 
replaced.  Perhaps we could be looking at a totally single-strung 
theorbo which has been subject to extensive modification.


Martin

On 11/12/2017 20:17, Matthew Daillie wrote:
According to the museum catalogue, the basses were indeed made double 
when the neck was shortened. It is surmised that the upper neck was 
shortened by 500 mm and that this was the reason for the lower courses 
being doubled thereafter (presumably to compensate for a lacklustre 
sound from the basses). Both peg boxes have been altered and the one 
on the lower neck has had to accommodate twice as many pegs as it had 
before. The present German-style bridge is not original and probably 
dates from when the major modifications were carried out.


Best,

Matthew

  On 11/12/2017 19:30, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Magnus and All,

A few thoughts:

I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately 
found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been 
shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.


In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have 
recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian 
instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough 
string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about 
the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have 
been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).


If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at 
which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to 
whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?


The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely 
consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known 
from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely 
irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original 
state in which there were more than 6 courses.


If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length 
for the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant 
theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this 
length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle 
remains.


Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) 
there is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the 
petit jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the 
nature of the beast.


Best wishes,

Martin 





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

According to the museum catalogue, the basses were indeed made double 
when the neck was shortened. It is surmised that the upper neck was 
shortened by 500 mm and that this was the reason for the lower courses 
being doubled thereafter (presumably to compensate for a lacklustre 
sound from the basses). Both peg boxes have been altered and the one on 
the lower neck has had to accommodate twice as many pegs as it had 
before. The present German-style bridge is not original and probably 
dates from when the major modifications were carried out.


Best,

Matthew

  On 11/12/2017 19:30, Martin Shepherd wrote:

Dear Magnus and All,

A few thoughts:

I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately 
found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been 
shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.


In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have 
recent experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian 
instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough 
string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about 
the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have 
been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).


If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at 
which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to 
whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?


The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely 
consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known 
from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely 
irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original 
state in which there were more than 6 courses.


If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for 
the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant 
theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this 
length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle 
remains.


Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there 
is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit 
jeu strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature 
of the beast.


Best wishes,

Martin 





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Martin Shepherd]

Dear Magnus and All,

A few thoughts:

I only recently realised that this instrument existed and immediately 
found it puzzling.  Matthew's conjecture that the neck has been 
shortened removes some, but not all, of the puzzle.


In terms of the string length for the petit jeu of c.90cm, I have recent 
experience that (with double strings, as was normal on Italian 
instruments) there begins to be a problem of getting a thin enough 
string for the 3rd course.  I wonder if that tells us something about 
the pitch (nominal or absolute) at which these instruments might have 
been played (I mean theorboes of 90+ cm as opposed to 80+cm).


If the neck of E545 has been shortened, perhaps that was the point at 
which the basses were made double.  Can anyone enlighten us as to 
whether the bridge is original or has been redrilled?


The fact that there are only 6 courses on the petit jeu is entirely 
consistent with all known Italian theorboes (and what little is known 
from iconography about French ones, which in this case are surely 
irrelevant anyway).  There is no reason to hypothesise an original state 
in which there were more than 6 courses.


If the neck has been shortened, one might guess an original length for 
the grand jeu of 160-170cm, based on the proportions of extant 
theorboes.  It's hard to imagine double-strung bass courses of this 
length - it's hard enough to imagine at 130cm - so my initial puzzle 
remains.


Whatever kind of stringing one imagines (even single throughout) there 
is always going to be a big transition from the lowest of the petit jeu 
strings to the first of the long basses - that's just the nature of the 
beast.


Best wishes,

Martin




On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

Dear collective wisdom,
I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
[1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
into this present condition.
The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
0.40-0.42
for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
1500 mm...
Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Magnus Andersson

--

References

1. http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799


To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

On 11/12/2017 18:50, Matthew Daillie wrote:
Another thought: obviously you wouldn't be able to use an octave 
string for the 7th diapason, it would just be too thin, so maybe if 
you do decide to have the upper neck at 130 cm, then you could ask 
your luthier to put the 7th course on the fingerboard.
Sorry, ignore this last comment about the octave string (which, as I 
said in my previous message, could be 0.44 at a' 392), but if you can't 
find a string long enough, you could consider changing the set-up to 7 
courses for both necks.




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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Miles Dempster]

Hi Magnus,

Do you really need to use octave stringing throughout?

For your 7th and 8th courses, for example, the diameter of the fundamental for 
a string length of 1300mm should give enough clarity of sound for there not to 
be a need for an octave to brighten it further.

To my ear, the discontinuity in sound on a typical single strung theorbo that 
occurs between the lowest string on the fingerboard and the first diapason is a 
bit harsh (and there is no question of an octave!).

Just my 2 cents worth.


Miles




> On Dec 11, 2017, at 12:15 PM, Bruno Cognyl-Fournier  
> wrote:
> 
>   well when SOFRACOB still existed, you could cut your own length since
>   he sent them in lengtes of more than 3 meters..
>   Woul Dan Larson provide strings that that long? or Mimmo Peruffo if you
>   go Nylgut?
>   Bruno
> 
>   2017-12-11 11:42 GMT-05:00 Magnus Andersson <[1]magnusl...@gmail.com>:
> 
>Hi all,
>sorry for the confusion!
>The diapasons are 1300 mm long,
>but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them
> properly.
>Best,
>Magnus
>On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner
><[1][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson
>  <[2][3]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
>>It was probably shortened sometime from its original
> length
>>into this present condition.
>>The problem that arises is when one wants to string the
> upper
>  courses
>>of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings
> beginning
>  with
>>0.40-0.42
>>for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string
> length
>  of ca.
>>1500 mm...
>  Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500?
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[3][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>2. mailto:[6]magnusl...@gmail.com
>3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>   3. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>   6. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
>   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

Another thought: obviously you wouldn't be able to use an octave string 
for the 7th diapason, it would just be too thin, so maybe if you do 
decide to have the upper neck at 130 cm, then you could ask your luthier 
to put the 7th course on the fingerboard.


Best,
Matthew

On 11/12/2017 18:39, Matthew Daillie wrote:

Hi Magnus,

I don't know how advanced your project is but are you sure that you 
want your instrument to be a copy of the Sellas theorbo as it is now 
rather than how it probably was originally? The catalogue of the 
museum confirms that the upper neck was severely shortened and that 
the modification was rather shoddily done. The original diapasons 
would have probably had the classic proportions of twice the length of 
the lower neck, so in the region of 1800 cm. The octave strings were 
doubtlessly added to the diapasons to compensate for their short length.


If you do go for a copy of the instrument in its present state, then I 
would suggest putting it into a' 392 as the lower neck S.L. is on the 
long side and it has a big body. You could then use a gut string of 
about 0.44 (or maybe even 0.46). I think Kürschner make long lengths 
(more than 125 cm) to order.


Best,
Matthew


 On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

  Dear collective wisdom,
    I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
    proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
    The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
    today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
[1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
    It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
    six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
    and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
    It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
    into this present condition.
    The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper 
courses

    of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
    0.40-0.42
    for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of 
ca.

    1500 mm...
    Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
    Best wishes,
    Magnus Andersson





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[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Magnus,

I don't know how advanced your project is but are you sure that you want 
your instrument to be a copy of the Sellas theorbo as it is now rather 
than how it probably was originally? The catalogue of the museum 
confirms that the upper neck was severely shortened and that the 
modification was rather shoddily done. The original diapasons would have 
probably had the classic proportions of twice the length of the lower 
neck, so in the region of 1800 cm. The octave strings were doubtlessly 
added to the diapasons to compensate for their short length.


If you do go for a copy of the instrument in its present state, then I 
would suggest putting it into a' 392 as the lower neck S.L. is on the 
long side and it has a big body. You could then use a gut string of 
about 0.44 (or maybe even 0.46). I think Kürschner make long lengths 
(more than 125 cm) to order.


Best,
Matthew


 On 11/12/2017 17:23, Magnus Andersson wrote:

  Dear collective wisdom,
I wonder if you might be able to help me with finding
proper strings for a theorbo I ´ve commissioned.
The instrument is a theorbo by Sellas, 1640,
today housed in Paris with the label E. 545.
[1]http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0161799
It ´s quite a spectacular instrument with
six double strings on the fretboard, at 890 mm,
and then 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
into this present condition.
The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
0.40-0.42
for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
1500 mm...
Any ideas would be highly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Magnus Andersson





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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Bruno Cognyl-Fournier]

   well when SOFRACOB still existed, you could cut your own length since
   he sent them in lengtes of more than 3 meters..
   Woul Dan Larson provide strings that that long? or Mimmo Peruffo if you
   go Nylgut?
   Bruno

   2017-12-11 11:42 GMT-05:00 Magnus Andersson <[1]magnusl...@gmail.com>:

Hi all,
sorry for the confusion!
The diapasons are 1300 mm long,
but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them
 properly.
Best,
Magnus
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner
<[1][2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
  > On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson
  <[2][3]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote:
  >
  > 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
  > It was probably shortened sometime from its original
 length
  > into this present condition.
  > The problem that arises is when one wants to string the
 upper
  courses
  > of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings
 beginning
  with
  > 0.40-0.42
  > for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string
 length
  of ca.
  > 1500 mm...
  Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500?
To get on or off this list see list information at
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--
 References
1. mailto:[5]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
2. mailto:[6]magnusl...@gmail.com
3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   3. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   6. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[Magnus Andersson]

   Hi all,
   sorry for the confusion!
   The diapasons are 1300 mm long,
   but I ´d need a bit more than that to be able to knot them properly.
   Best,
   Magnus

   On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:41 PM, howard posner
   <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

 > On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson
 <[2]magnusl...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
 >It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
 >into this present condition.
 >The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper
 courses
 >of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning
 with
 >0.40-0.42
 >for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length
 of ca.
 >1500 mm...
 Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500?

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:magnusl...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A stringing question for Sellas E. 545

[howard posner]

> On Dec 11, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Magnus Andersson  wrote:
> 
> 8 double strings for the diapasons, at 1300 mm.
>   It was probably shortened sometime from its original length
>   into this present condition.
>   The problem that arises is when one wants to string the upper courses
>   of the diapasons. Here one needs very thin strings beginning with
>   0.40-0.42
>   for the high string of the 7th course Gg, at the string length of ca.
>   1500 mm...

Are the diapasons 1300 or 1500?



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