[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
A worn fret is not the same thing as a loose fret. Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Edward Martin Date: 3/12/18 7:51 PM (GMT-07:00) To: spiffys84121 Cc: John Lenti , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets One factor is that new frets sound great. That is why I change frets. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:07 PM, spiffys84121 wrote: > > If you're smart enough to -tie- frets, you're smart enough to -tighten- > frets. It takes less time to do than describe. Seriously-- why are > people --replacing-- loose frets?? > > Baffled, > > Sterling > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > Original message > From: John Lenti > Date: 3/12/18 1:13 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: howard posner , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > > I'm a little reluctant to share something that might seem almost > immoral, but what the hell, I make my living playing the lute and I > tie > a lot of frets, so I'll chip in here: when I go, as I do almost > weekly, > from my home in Seattle, where the weather is always perfect for > gut-strung-and-fretted instruments, to a place like the mountains of > Montana or the desert of Tucson and the humidity is 1% and my frets > (usually it's 1, 5, and 6 on my main touring instrument) start > slipping > and sliding around, and I don't feel like re-fretting, I tape them > down > with masking tape. > Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10 > __ > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on > behalf > of howard posner > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:01:32 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly > wrote: >> >> My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They > are >> metal. > I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must > have > really strong fingers. > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.c > s.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data%7C01%7C%7Cb2e0 > > 482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0 > > %7C636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA > %3D&reserved=0 > -- > References > 1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkIdU0986 > 2. > https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartm > outh.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec608d585 > df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sdata=IZ > Z6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0 >
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
A worn fret is not the same thing as a loose fret. Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: Edward Martin Date: 3/12/18 7:51 PM (GMT-07:00) To: spiffys84121 Cc: John Lenti , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets One factor is that new frets sound great. That is why I change frets. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:07 PM, spiffys84121 wrote: > > If you're smart enough to -tie- frets, you're smart enough to -tighten- > frets. It takes less time to do than describe. Seriously-- why are > people --replacing-- loose frets?? > > Baffled, > > Sterling > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > Original message > From: John Lenti > Date: 3/12/18 1:13 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: howard posner , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > > I'm a little reluctant to share something that might seem almost > immoral, but what the hell, I make my living playing the lute and I > tie > a lot of frets, so I'll chip in here: when I go, as I do almost > weekly, > from my home in Seattle, where the weather is always perfect for > gut-strung-and-fretted instruments, to a place like the mountains of > Montana or the desert of Tucson and the humidity is 1% and my frets > (usually it's 1, 5, and 6 on my main touring instrument) start > slipping > and sliding around, and I don't feel like re-fretting, I tape them > down > with masking tape. > Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10 > __ > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on > behalf > of howard posner > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:01:32 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly > wrote: >> >> My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They > are >> metal. > I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must > have > really strong fingers. > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.c > s.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data%7C01%7C%7Cb2e0 > > 482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0 > > %7C636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA > %3D&reserved=0 > -- > References > 1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkIdU0986 > 2. > https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartm > outh.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec608d585 > df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sdata=IZ > Z6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0 >
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
One factor is that new frets sound great. That is why I change frets. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2018, at 8:07 PM, spiffys84121 > wrote: > > If you're smart enough to -tie- frets, you're smart enough to -tighten- > frets. It takes less time to do than describe. Seriously-- why are > people --replacing-- loose frets?? > > Baffled, > > Sterling > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > Original message > From: John Lenti > Date: 3/12/18 1:13 AM (GMT-07:00) > To: howard posner , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > > I'm a little reluctant to share something that might seem almost > immoral, but what the hell, I make my living playing the lute and I > tie > a lot of frets, so I'll chip in here: when I go, as I do almost > weekly, > from my home in Seattle, where the weather is always perfect for > gut-strung-and-fretted instruments, to a place like the mountains of > Montana or the desert of Tucson and the humidity is 1% and my frets > (usually it's 1, 5, and 6 on my main touring instrument) start > slipping > and sliding around, and I don't feel like re-fretting, I tape them > down > with masking tape. > Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10 >__ > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on > behalf > of howard posner > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:01:32 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets >> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly > wrote: >> >> My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They > are >> metal. > I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must > have > really strong fingers. > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.c > s.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data%7C01%7C%7Cb2e0 > > 482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0 > > %7C636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA > %3D&reserved=0 > -- > References > 1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkIdU0986 > 2. > https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartm > outh.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec608d585 > df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sdata=IZ > Z6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0 >
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
If you're smart enough to -tie- frets, you're smart enough to -tighten- frets. It takes less time to do than describe. Seriously-- why are people --replacing-- loose frets?? Baffled, Sterling Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone Original message From: John Lenti Date: 3/12/18 1:13 AM (GMT-07:00) To: howard posner , lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I'm a little reluctant to share something that might seem almost immoral, but what the hell, I make my living playing the lute and I tie a lot of frets, so I'll chip in here: when I go, as I do almost weekly, from my home in Seattle, where the weather is always perfect for gut-strung-and-fretted instruments, to a place like the mountains of Montana or the desert of Tucson and the humidity is 1% and my frets (usually it's 1, 5, and 6 on my main touring instrument) start slipping and sliding around, and I don't feel like re-fretting, I tape them down with masking tape. Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10 __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:01:32 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.c s.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data%7C01%7C%7Cb2e0 482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0 %7C636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA %3D&reserved=0 -- References 1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkIdU0986 2. https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartm outh.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec608d585 df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sdata=IZ Z6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
I assume you're talking about fluorocarbon. If so, while it's pretty pliable and easy to knot, it's also relatively hard. Its knots can gouge into the wood of a neck with enough slippage over great lengths of time. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of George Arndt Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 5:06 PM To: John Lenti; howard posner; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; George Arndt Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets Hello John and everyone. I use masking tape on the back of my lute neck to hold loose gut frets. It works better than notching the edge of the fingerboard, putting glue on gut fret material, or inserting tiny wedges. Then I switched to salt-water fishing line for strings and found it works just as well for frets. I have double loops frets on my barque lute and single loop frets on my renaissance lutes and arch lute. So far I have only experienced first-frets slipping with fishing line frets. The advantage is fishing line stretches when I hold both ends of the knotted line with pliers to pull both ways with force. I ruined more than a few pieces of wet gut fret material trying to pull a knot. I tie frets one position low and slide them up the neck for added tension. If the knot breaks it costs less then a penny to cut and tie a new fret. I also discovered masking tape works well to deal with loose and sticking pegs. I use a single wrap on pegs and trim the edges of the tape so it does not show outside of the peg box bore hole. I use 3-M blue painter's trim tape with very low tac. It does not leave a residue on the sticky side, it compresses just enough to snug the peg, and the exterior tape surface gives the right friction to turn a tight peg. If you suffer from slipping pegs, hold the peg box close to a bright light and looks for light leaking between a peg and the edge of the bore, when you see this try maksing tape. Then let us all know how it works for you. Thanks, George __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of John Lenti Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 2:13 AM To: howard posner; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I’m a little reluctant to share something that might seem almost immoral, but what the hell, I make my living playing the lute and I tie a lot of frets, so I’ll chip in here: when I go, as I do almost weekly, from my home in Seattle, where the weather is always perfect for gut-strung-and-fretted instruments, to a place like the mountains of Montana or the desert of Tucson and the humidity is 1% and my frets (usually it’s 1, 5, and 6 on my main touring instrument) start slipping and sliding around, and I don’t feel like re-fretting, I tape them down with masking tape. Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10 __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of howard posner Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:01:32 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.c s.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb2e0 482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0 %7C636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA %3D&reserved=0 -- References 1. [1]https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 2. [2]https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.da rtmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data=02|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec6 08d585df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sd ata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0 -- References 1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 2. https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html&data=02|01||b2e0482fe1c54b991ec608d585df2c7f|84df9e7fe9f640afb435|1|0|636562115923455431&sdata=IZZ6Zu8XFrfsZCfWdhf7SHgTi7418M8H6c6WDYZPwhA=&reserved=0
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
I don't know what it consists of. The stuff comes from a supplier of varnish components and ready-made varnishes in Franconia and is simply called "Saitenoel" (string oil). From the smell I suspect that it contains at least some percent of bisti. Best Joachim Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. Originalnachricht Von: Dan Winheld Gesendet: Samstag, 10. März 2018 18:18 An: jo.lued...@t-online.de; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Antwort an: Dan Winheld Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets What is string oil? I remember liquid vitamin E and almond oil being recommended many years ago, but never heard of actual "string oil". Dan On 3/10/2018 6:25 AM, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: > Dear list, > > I don't use water, but I wipe a drop of string oil over each length of fret > gut I am going to put on the neck of whatever lute or guitar instrument. > > Greetings, > > Joachim > > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. > Originalnachricht > Von: fournierbru > Gesendet: Samstag, 10. März 2018 15:00 > An: l...@reasonablefax.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > > > I actually never thought of it...but it is a good idea as they would > tighten up upon drying. > > Bruno > > Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au > pays. > > Message d'origine > De : l...@reasonablefax.com > Date : 18-03-09 3:57 PM (GMT-05:00) > à : howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Loose frets > > Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I > dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let > them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed, I rewet the part > that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret > on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before > pulling into position. > I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the > wetting to be useful. > -Anne Burns > On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner wrote: > > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > > metal. > I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have > really strong fingers. > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
What is string oil? I remember liquid vitamin E and almond oil being recommended many years ago, but never heard of actual "string oil". Dan On 3/10/2018 6:25 AM, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: Dear list, I don't use water, but I wipe a drop of string oil over each length of fret gut I am going to put on the neck of whatever lute or guitar instrument. Greetings, Joachim Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. Originalnachricht Von: fournierbru Gesendet: Samstag, 10. März 2018 15:00 An: l...@reasonablefax.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I actually never thought of it...but it is a good idea as they would tighten up upon drying. Bruno Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au pays. Message d'origine De : l...@reasonablefax.com Date : 18-03-09 3:57 PM (GMT-05:00) à : howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Loose frets Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed, I rewet the part that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before pulling into position. I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the wetting to be useful. -Anne Burns On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner wrote: > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Dear list, I don't use water, but I wipe a drop of string oil over each length of fret gut I am going to put on the neck of whatever lute or guitar instrument. Greetings, Joachim Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. Originalnachricht Von: fournierbru Gesendet: Samstag, 10. März 2018 15:00 An: l...@reasonablefax.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I actually never thought of it...but it is a good idea as they would tighten up upon drying. Bruno Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au pays. Message d'origine De : l...@reasonablefax.com Date : 18-03-09 3:57 PM (GMT-05:00) à : howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Loose frets Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed, I rewet the part that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before pulling into position. I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the wetting to be useful. -Anne Burns On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner wrote: > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
I actually never thought of it...but it is a good idea as they would tighten up upon drying. Bruno Envoyé de mon appareil Samsung de Bell via le réseau le plus vaste au pays. Message d'origine De : l...@reasonablefax.com Date : 18-03-09 3:57 PM (GMT-05:00) à : howardpos...@ca.rr.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Loose frets Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed, I rewet the part that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before pulling into position. I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the wetting to be useful. -Anne Burns On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner wrote: > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I dip my fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let them sit a little to soften just a tad. If needed, I rewet the part that is going to make the knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret on below where it is going to end up, and allow it to dry before pulling into position. I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the wetting to be useful. -Anne Burns On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner wrote: > On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are > metal. I want to know how you tied them on in the first place. You must have really strong fingers. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Indeed Chris: Mace reports the usual common practice but , as you say, he employs a single loop. This was also discussed earlier (when this subject was previously aired some years ago). In particular, I find the double fret beds in so that one loop takes the wear and the other provides the clean break. If Mace's experience was so beneficial, I wonder why the vast majority of historic iconography shows double loops?... MH __ From: Christopher Wilke To: Christopher Wilke ; Martyn Hodgson ; Matthew Daillie ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 14:07 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets And of course, my experience was also born out by Mace in 1676 who gives instructions for double frets, but actually recommends using a single fret, because, "...it is not only sooner done, and with a shorter string; but chiefly, it does (assuredly) cause a clearer sound from the string stopt; which must needs be granted, if it be considered, that the string lying upon this only round single fret, cannot but speak clear, when as (on the contrary) it lying upon two, (as in the double fret it does) it cannot be thought to speak so clear, because, that although it lie hard and close, upon the uppermost of the two, next the finger, yet it cannot lie so close and hard, upon the undermost; so that it must needs fuzz a little..." Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 8:52 AM, Christopher Wilke <[1]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Martyn, I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The track running order differed from the order in which they were recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it. Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to fret twice the number of instruments I actually own! I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut, which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic than what we have available today. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH __ From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3][3]dail...@club-internet.fr> To: "[3][4][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed >(something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie >firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6][7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8][8]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:[9][9]dail...@club-internet.fr 3. mailto:[10][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[11
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Chris, Well, my experience is that I recounted earlier - perhaps, as you suggest, it's to do with the quality of the gut and I've been lucky with most of my my fret gut supplies, since, you're right, some supplies are better than others. If possible I also try and use old playing strings (not frayed bits obviously) and, I suppose, this is what the 'Old Ones' did and so perhaps the economics of gut frets was not to unmanageable. Incidentally, I'm not sure if old lute gut was softer than modern. Certainly from pictures etc it generally seems to be more pliable as Mimmo Peruffo, amongst others, has pointed out but that's not the same thing necessarily. MH __ From: Christopher Wilke To: Martyn Hodgson ; Matthew Daillie ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 13:49 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets Martyn, I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The track running order differed from the order in which they were recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it. Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to fret twice the number of instruments I actually own! I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut, which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic than what we have available today. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH __ From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr> To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed >(something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie >firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are metal. A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters Francisco Goya On Mar 9, 2018, at 6:48 AM, Christopher Wilke <[1]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Martyn, I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The track running order differed from the order in which they were recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it. Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to fret twice the number of instruments I actually own! I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut, which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic than what we have available today. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH _ _ From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3]dail...@club-internet.fr> To: "[3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed (something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5][6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs .dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SR Qusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBR t90E&m=7mMcRogksiKY0007ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM&s=SlLsze13jVrklD6dGd aTajMI2w_p8KdnYINSWKhnwJA&e= -- References 1. [6][7]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo uth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vY R0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m= 7mMcRogksiKY0007ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM&s=SlLsze13jVrklD6dGdaTajMI2 w_p8KdnYINSWKhnwJA&e= -- References 1. [8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__overview.mail.y ahoo.com_-3F.src-3DiOS&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK y6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=7mMcRogksiKY0007 ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM&s=H8C40-taYnyGtUKgU5MbGe06j9u1e4VRrejUi0adF xk&e= 2. [9]mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 3. [10]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [11]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [12]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0 n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=7m McRogksiKY0007ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM&s=SlLsze13jVrklD6dGdaTajMI2w_ p8KdnYINSWKhnwJA&e= 6. [13]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIBAg&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0 n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=7m McRogksiKY0007ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM&s=SlLsze13jVrklD6dGdaTajMI2w_ p8KdnYINSWKhnwJA&e= -- References 1. mailt
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
On 09/03/2018 14:06, Tristan von Neumann wrote: A substitute would be highly welcome. I have thought about soaking parcel string in hide glue for frets. Has anyone tried something that? Aquila have started producing nylgut frets. I haven't tried them as I am quite happy with gut. Best, Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
And of course, my experience was also born out by Mace in 1676 who gives instructions for double frets, but actually recommends using a single fret, because, "...it is not only sooner done, and with a shorter string; but chiefly, it does (assuredly) cause a clearer sound from the string stopt; which must needs be granted, if it be considered, that the string lying upon this only round single fret, cannot but speak clear, when as (on the contrary) it lying upon two, (as in the double fret it does) it cannot be thought to speak so clear, because, that although it lie hard and close, upon the uppermost of the two, next the finger, yet it cannot lie so close and hard, upon the undermost; so that it must needs fuzz a little..." Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 8:52 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Martyn, I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The track running order differed from the order in which they were recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it. Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to fret twice the number of instruments I actually own! I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut, which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic than what we have available today. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH __ From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3]dail...@club-internet.fr> To: "[3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed >(something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie >firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:[9]dail...@club-internet.fr 3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 9. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Martyn, I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The track running order differed from the order in which they were recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it. Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to fret twice the number of instruments I actually own! I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut, which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic than what we have available today. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH __ From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr> To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed >(something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie >firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS 2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Even gut fret is quite expensive if you want a nice slant in fret thickness, and double frets are twice as expensive :) Sometimes I play 4-6 hours a day and they wear off quite quickly. A substitute would be highly welcome. I have thought about soaking parcel string in hide glue for frets. Has anyone tried something that? Am 09.03.2018 um 11:39 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed (something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie firmly, historical double fret loops MH __ From: Matthew Daillie To: Cc: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 9:27 Subject: [LUTE] Loose frets If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's probably because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place (I am presuming you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them enough leeway to tighten properly when you pull them towards the bridge. They need almost a whole position to get nicely tight, so when you put the third fret on, for example, tighten it close to the second fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The first fret is generally the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, there is less room to manoeuvre. Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very wet weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to loosen at least a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I live, the relative humidity can plummet within a few hours when the cold, dry mistral wind blows. I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on tying frets. Best, Matthew > On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they become loose. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that, being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a single loop would. A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop. rgds MH __ From: Matthew Daillie To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed >(something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie >firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
I've never had issues with single knots. Best, Matthew On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed (something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie firmly, historical double fret loops To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Loose frets
Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed (something of a modern fad) rather than the better, and easier to tie firmly, historical double fret loops MH __ From: Matthew Daillie To: Cc: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 9:27 Subject: [LUTE] Loose frets If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's probably because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place (I am presuming you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them enough leeway to tighten properly when you pull them towards the bridge. They need almost a whole position to get nicely tight, so when you put the third fret on, for example, tighten it close to the second fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The first fret is generally the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, there is less room to manoeuvre. Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very wet weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to loosen at least a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I live, the relative humidity can plummet within a few hours when the cold, dry mistral wind blows. I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on tying frets. Best, Matthew > On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they become loose. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html