[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[r . turovsky]

Or the Six Dolphin Books. A scary thought

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2018, at 11:07 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> And now, moving on to the garden metaphor ...
> 
> 
> 
>> On 04/12/2018 08:45 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
>> Dimitri,
>> I think you nailed it. Thanks a lot!
>> 
>> Jurgen
>> 
>> 
>> ​--
>> 
>> “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”
>> 
>> Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi​
>> 
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> 
>>> On 12 April 2018 4:10 AM,  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ​​
>>> 
>>> I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
>>> 
>>> simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
>>> 
>>> It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
>>> 
>>> trees), but I would not translate it literally.
>>> 
>>> There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
>>> 
>>> "Silva de varios romances"
>>> 
>>> "Silva de poesía"
>>> 
>>> etc.
>>> 
>>> So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".
>>> 
>>> Dmitry
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> 
>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of
>>> 
>>> Jurgen Frenz
>>> 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
>>> 
>>> To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> 
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"
>>> 
>>> Hello there,
>>> 
>>> another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
>>> 
>>> Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
>>> 
>>> source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
>>> 
>>> nothing when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
>>> 
>>> artic google.png
>>> 
>>> Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
>>> 
>>> differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
>>> 
>>> today? Would anybody know?
>>> 
>>> Thanks for helping, best wishes
>>> 
>>> Jurgen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>> 
>>> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> 
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Alain Veylit]

And now, moving on to the garden metaphor ...



On 04/12/2018 08:45 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Dimitri,
I think you nailed it. Thanks a lot!

Jurgen


​--

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 12 April 2018 4:10 AM,  wrote:


​​

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means

simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).

It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of

trees), but I would not translate it literally.

There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:

"Silva de varios romances"

"Silva de poesía"

etc.

So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry

-Original Message-

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of

Jurgen Frenz

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM

To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of

Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the

source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and

nothing when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words

differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)

today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen


-

"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi

To get on or off this list see list information at

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Dan Winheld]

And, like the Zen masters (wordless direct transmission) Rumi used a 
whole buncha words over the years to say that! :-D



On 4/12/2018 8:45 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Dimitri,
I think you nailed it. Thanks a lot!

Jurgen


​--

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 12 April 2018 4:10 AM,  wrote:


​​

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means

simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).

It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of

trees), but I would not translate it literally.

There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:

"Silva de varios romances"

"Silva de poesía"

etc.

So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry

-Original Message-

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of

Jurgen Frenz

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM

To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of

Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the

source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and

nothing when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words

differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)

today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen


-

"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi

To get on or off this list see list information at

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Jurgen Frenz]

Dimitri,
I think you nailed it. Thanks a lot!

Jurgen


​--

“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 12 April 2018 4:10 AM,  wrote:

> ​​
> 
> I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
> 
> simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
> 
> It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
> 
> trees), but I would not translate it literally.
> 
> There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
> 
> "Silva de varios romances"
> 
> "Silva de poesía"
> 
> etc.
> 
> So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".
> 
> Dmitry
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of
> 
> Jurgen Frenz
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
> 
> To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 
> Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"
> 
> Hello there,
> 
> another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
> 
> Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
> 
> source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
> 
> nothing when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
> 
> artic google.png
> 
> Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
> 
> differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
> 
> today? Would anybody know?
> 
> Thanks for helping, best wishes
> 
> Jurgen
> 
> 
> -
> 
> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
> 
> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Albert Reyerman]

selva or silva possibly means a collection (of trees),
as a forest is a collection of tree.

Regards
Albert Reyerman
TREE (sic) edition

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de

Am 12.04.2018 um 00:19 schrieb Eloy Cruz:

Dear List

The DRAE (Diccionario de la Real Academia Española) has, as first meaning:
Silva
1. f. Colección de materias o temas diversos, escritos sin método ni orden.

A collection of diverse  matters or subjects,  written without a method or 
order.

Silva as “selva” (jungle, forest) is meaning no. 5, and it’s marked “desus” 
(not used any more).

Regards


eloy






On Apr 11, 2018, at 5:01 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
wrote:

Also, there's Monteverdi's "Selva Morale e Spirituale" :)



Am 12.04.2018 um 00:37 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT
On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

 Hello there,

 another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
 Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
 source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
 _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

 artic google.png

 Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
 differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
 today? Would anybody know?

 Thanks for helping, best wishes

 Jurgen

 --
 "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

 JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html







--

.

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[stephen arndt]

I just consulted Lewis and Short, and even in classical Latin "silva" had 
the tropological sense of "a crowded mass, abundance, or quantity." Plautus 
speaks of a " silva rerum, sententiarumque" and Cicero of a "silva virtutum 
et vitiorum." Strangely, however, the "Gloassarium mediae et infimae 
latinitatis" does not list any but the literal sense of "silva" or, rather, 
"sylva." --For what it's worth.


-Original Message- 
From: d.p.medve...@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:40 PM
To: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

I understand that the title is poetic. I only suggested that "forest" is 
actually a metaphor for "collection".

Another example (which combines both meanings):
"Silva de varia lección" by Pero Mexía was translated into English in the 
16th century as "The foreste or Collection of histories..."


Dmitry

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of 
Roman Turovsky

Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:38 PM
To: d.p.medve...@gmail.com; 'Lute List' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva"
means simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of 
music).

It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a
"collection" of trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the 
sirens".


Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf
Of Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Tristan von Neumann]

Also, there's Monteverdi's "Selva Morale e Spirituale" :)



Am 12.04.2018 um 00:37 schrieb Roman Turovsky:

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a 
"collection" of

trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the 
sirens".


Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

    Hello there,

    another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
    Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was 
the
    source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe 
and

    _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

    artic google.png

    Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
    differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
    today? Would anybody know?

    Thanks for helping, best wishes

    Jurgen

    --
    "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

    JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[d.p.medvedev]

I understand that the title is poetic. I only suggested that "forest" is 
actually a metaphor for "collection".
Another example (which combines both meanings): 
"Silva de varia lección" by Pero Mexía was translated into English in the 16th 
century as "The foreste or Collection of histories..."
 
Dmitry

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Roman 
Turovsky
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:38 PM
To: d.p.medve...@gmail.com; 'Lute List' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" 
> means simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
> It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a 
> "collection" of trees), but I would not translate it literally.
> There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
> "Silva de varios romances"
> "Silva de poesía"
> etc.
> So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".
>
> Dmitry
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf 
> Of Jurgen Frenz
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
> To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"
>
> Hello there,
>
> another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
> Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
> source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
> _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
>
> artic google.png
>
> Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
> differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
> today? Would anybody know?
>
> Thanks for helping, best wishes
>
> Jurgen
>
> --
> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>
> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Rainer]

Pretty much _every_ 500 year old language used words differenty :-)
Even 150 year is more than enough to change the meaning of words.
As for Valderrabano: I'd translate that as 'forrest of the sirens' i.e. those
mythological creatures that lured sailors into dangerous cliffs by means
of their beautiful singing.


Many years ago a translation of instruction from a German lute book were 
published by the LSA.

The translator -  who certainly spoke German very well - didn't know that in those days 
"anhebt" meant "starts" and misinterpreted it as a finger movement.

I am used to read old German texts back to 1500 but I guess texts from the 14th 
century are almost incomprehensible for Germans :)

Virdung's orthography is already horrible :)

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Roman Turovsky]

Definitely not.
Stephen Fryer is correct -
A Forest of Sirens, a poetic title.
RT


On 4/11/2018 5:10 PM, d.p.medve...@gmail.com wrote:

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[d.p.medvedev]

I am not an expert in Spanish but, as far as I understand, "silva" means
simply "collection" (primarily of poetry, but in this case of music).
It probably derives from the Latin word for "forest" (as a "collection" of
trees), but I would not translate it literally.
There are a number of similar titles from about the same period:
"Silva de varios romances"
"Silva de poesía"
etc.
So, I would translate the title as "A collection [of songs] of the sirens".

Dmitry


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  On Behalf Of
Jurgen Frenz
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 4:36 PM
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

   Hello there,

   another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
   Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
   source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
   _nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

   artic google.png

   Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
   differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
   today? Would anybody know?

   Thanks for helping, best wishes

   Jurgen

   --
   "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

   JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Stephen Fryer]

"Wood (forest) of the Sirens"



On 2018-04-11 1:36 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

Hello there,

another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.

artic google.png

Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
today? Would anybody know?

Thanks for helping, best wishes

Jurgen

--
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."

JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Meaning of title "Silva de Sirenas"

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Mittwoch, 11. April 2018 22:36 CEST, Jurgen Frenz 
 schrieb: 
 
>Hello there,
> 
>another thread on this list motivated me to ask - the title of
>Valderrabano's publication "Silva de Sirenas" renders if latin was the
>source language "Arctic Forest" which I would find hard to believe and
>_nothing_ when setting Google translate to Spanish as source.
> 
>artic google.png
> 
>Hence my suspicion that 500 year old Spanish was using words
>differently. But what does the title mean in English (German/French)
>today? Would anybody know?

Pretty much _every_ 500 year old language used words differenty :-)
Even 150 year is more than enough to change the meaning of words.
As for Valderrabano: I'd translate that as 'forrest of the sirens' i.e. those
mythological creatures that lured sailors into dangerous cliffs by means
of their beautiful singing.

 HTH RalfD



 
 
 





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