[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
- Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thanks Arthur! <>You're welcome. Another version is indeed in the Mus Ms 40032 manuscript. Folio 153v/p. 361. Facsimile in Kirsch, very last page (staff lines 1-3, with varied reprise, lines 4-7). You may wish to use that one as a guide, or use IT as a basic source. It's a better version, imho. Very good advice! For common interest(?) I added also this facsimile to the page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Arciliuto/ <>Thanks for posting that, Arto. It will help to understand the other version. The Suite in F is a nice start, too. <>There were three Garsis associated with the lute. Santino Garsi detto Valdes (b. Parma 1542; d. Parma 1604), his son Ascanio (fl. 1621) and his famous grandson (or son?) Donino Garsi da Parma (d. Parma 1630). As David remarked, perhaps the best source for Santino's music in the edition (guitar transc. and facsimile of tablature) by Dieter Kirsch publ. by Gitarre + Laute (1989), and it is good to hear that it is still available from Chanterelle. Alas it only contains music by Santino, and not the pieces by Ascanio and Donino. ooo - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have ordered my G + L editions from Chanterelle. http://www.chanterelle.com/ Make sure your creditcard is fully charged, as they have many nice editions in their catalogue. ;-) David o By the way, the Contessa [Marchessa] di Sala was the beautiful Barbara Sanvitale née Sanseverino. Fabritio Dentice was one of her musicians. <>As was Donino. Interesting! Is there more knowledge of the Contessa and the Court in those years? <>She was a member of a distinguished Neapolitan family, and surely knew Donino, since they both were in Parma in 1619. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Sanseverino And who could be the writer of the beautiful ms. 40153? Santino himself? <>Close. It belonged to a Polish or Belruse nobleman, Casimir Rudomina Dusiacki when he studied at the university of Padua. Most of Dusiacki's Lute Book was copied by his teacher(?) Donino Garsi and includes about 70 pieces, 13 attributed to Donino, 6 to Santino, one to Ascanio, as well as Polish dances, a battaglia and Napoletanas added by Dusiacki. Surely some of the anonymous pieces are by the Garsis, and the manuscript needs careful examination with that in mind. Previous editors have not wished to tread on such unstable earth. <>There are some famous pieces in the manuscripts including "La Cesarina" by Santino. It was widely copied, and appears in the Codice Lauten-Buch of Chilesotti (No. 61), and was used by Respighi in his Third Suite (the first movement is ABA, and the B part is "La Cesarina" A is No. 60, ibid.). We know that Donino copied the manuscript because several titles tell us so. For example of folio 57v is very famous piece, "Baletto dj me Donino Garsi fatti per il S[erenissima] Duca di Mantua." It's also in the Codice Lauten-Buch (No. 69) and made famous by John Dowland as "My Lady Hunsdon's Puffe" (Poulton-Lam, No. 54). Other pieces are actually quite clear and also artistic, for example the Aria del Gran Duca. <>That's another very famous piece, aka "Aria di Fiorenza," and was used so widely that Warren Kirkendale was able to write an entire book on just that piece and its many manifestations: in opera, for lute and guitar dances, ensemble pieces, Italian arias, and even a complete mass (by Banchieri). <>That's a fun manuscript, Arto. I hope you're enjoying it! And present more for us. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:05 PM, David van Ooijen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - the transcription for guitar made by Dieter Kirsch in his 'Santino > Garsi da Parma Lautenwerke - Gesamtausgabe in Tabulatur un > Uebertragung Herausgegeben von Dieter Kirsch. Gitarre und Laute G + L > 148) > > - the transcription made by Koichi Arakawa in his 'the Collected Lute > Music of Santino Garsi da Parma (The Lute Society of Nagoya, 1981) Just to be complete. I said the nice handwriting in the Japanese edition was by Katsuji Shibuya. It was not, he did the transcriptions. The Tablature Writing was done by Fumiko Asai. I didn't check the last page, my mistake, all credit to her! On the last page also an old address of: The Lute Society of Nagoya 1-9-3 Uchiyama, Chikusa-ku, Nagoya, Japan 464 This is an address from 1981, so den't expect an answer. But you never know. Arthur Ness already mentioned it, there is also an edition of Santino Garsi's music by good old Giesbert: Santino Garsi da Parma 41 Lautenstuecke copyright by F. J. Giesbert, Neuwird, 1969, Printed in Germany Neat handwriting, French and Italian Tab. The copies of this book were bound in the same folder as my Japanese edition, missed it for the same reason that I missed the last page of that one: I never looked further than the Salty piece Arto was looking for. Found a few pages of the 1925 edition too, guitar transcriptions that look very solid. Looks like I copied all from a friend with even more lute music ... We can never win. David PS. Tangentially related: David T. and Joseph B. might be pleased to know that their papers on Dowland's music are available in the music departement (NMI) of the Royal Library here in The Hague. Joseph's hefty two volume paper was listed under der Tobert Dowland. We've corrected that while we were there, so a computer search will bring it to light again. ;-) David T.'s paper can be read on-line at his own website, btw. -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
A more interesting and challenging piece is surely the 'Gagliarda di Santino' and its double/variant on F. 123v-124 of Mus Ms 40032. Here we have a more complex work whose structure also seems obscured and some rather quirky melodic leaps. Geisbert in his 1969 private publication 'Santino Garsi da Parma/1540-1604/Lautenstucke/In tablatur herausgegeben von F J Geisbert/Neuwird 1969' rebarred the pieces but probably further obscuring the rythms. The presence of a 'double' ought to make things easier but also throws up anomolies. Transcribing both pieces into parallel staff notation helps to identify the counterpoint but I've yet to settle on a version which seems satisfactory.. MH --- On Tue, 21/10/08, Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala > To: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > > Date: Tuesday, 21 October, 2008, 2:36 PM > - Original Message - > From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:09 AM > Subject: [LUTE] The enigma of Marquesa di Sala > > > > Hi lutenists, > > > > In the Mus. ms. 40032 Biblioteka Jagiellonska Krakow > there are some > > nice pieces for archlute by Santino Garsi da Parma. > Among them is an > > enigmatic piece "Gagliarda della Marquesa di > Sala". I just wonder, > > if anyone in our List is able to solve the problems of > the piece, > > reconstruct the rhythms? > > > > You can find the original, my (very) raw and > uncorrected copy of the > > piece and (this time) also the tab-file in page > > http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Arciliuto/ > ooo > <> Hello, Arto, > > <> The facsimile and raw transcription is > from the Dusiacki Lute > Book (Berlin/Cracow Mus ms 40153), fol. 60v-61. Part of > the problem > in reading it is that the barlines are drawn (for the most > part) in > duple, whereas the dance is in triple. So a good start > would be to > ignore the barlines. I think you'll find that in > triple meter the > dance fits nicely into 4+4 measure phrases. > > <> Another version is indeed in the Mus > Ms 40032 manuscript. > Folio 153v/p. 361. Facsimile in Kirsch, very last page > (staff lines > 1-3, > with varied reprise, lines 4-7). You may wish to use that > one as a > guide, or use > IT as a basic source. It's a better version, imho. No > transcription > in Kirsch. > > <> Isn't the publisher of > Dieter's edition defunct? That is, > Gitarre + Laute Verlagsgesellschaft? > > <> By the way, the Contessa [Marchessa] > di Sala was the > beautiful Barbara Sanvitale > née Sanseverino. Fabritio Dentice was one of her > musicians. > ooo > > I have seen one version for (modern) guitar, but that > was not very > > convicing. I do have some ideas, how it should be, but > problematic > > it is... > > > > So I thus declare a contest: Who will make the best > and most > > convincing edition of the piece! I will be the > judge... ;-) > > > > All the best, > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Taco Walstra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 21 October 2008, Arthur Ness rattled on the keyboard: > >> >> <> Isn't the publisher of Dieter's edition defunct? That is, >> Gitarre + Laute Verlagsgesellschaft? >> > They have this santiago di parma book and had a good facsimile of > baron's 'historisch theor. untersuchung' but I still don't know how to order > it without vague financial transactions. If somebody has any info how to > purchase the last book, i'm very interested. I have ordered my G + L editions from Chanterelle. http://www.chanterelle.com/ Make sure your creditcard is fully charged, as they have many nice editions in their catalogue. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On Tuesday 21 October 2008, Arthur Ness rattled on the keyboard: > > <> Isn't the publisher of Dieter's edition defunct? That is, > Gitarre + Laute Verlagsgesellschaft? > Hi arthur, There happens to be something called "musicologne Ltd" which links to http://www.gitarre-und-laute.de. Website musicologne.eu links to the same website. Ltd suggests something english , but the base is still germany. the strange thing is that it's impossible to find a link to order something and the "kontakt link" is not a link. A long time ago I found a telephone number of the owner in Germany and called him to ask how to order something. I sent the order by email with credit card details but the result was that nothing happened until I got a message from paypal that somebody tried to use my credit card with a new account. This was 100% sure this person. Of course he was not allowed to charge my card this way but didn't mail me either. They have this santiago di parma book and had a good facsimile of baron's 'historisch theor. untersuchung' but I still don't know how to order it without vague financial transactions. If somebody has any info how to purchase the last book, i'm very interested. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
Thanks Arthur! <> The facsimile and raw transcription is from the Dusiacki Lute Book (Berlin/Cracow Mus ms 40153), fol. 60v-61. Part of the problem in reading it is that the barlines are drawn (for the most part) in duple, whereas the dance is in triple. So a good start would be to ignore the barlines. I think you'll find that in triple meter the dance fits nicely into 4+4 measure phrases. <> Another version is indeed in the Mus Ms 40032 manuscript. Folio 153v/p. 361. Facsimile in Kirsch, very last page (staff lines 1-3, with varied reprise, lines 4-7). You may wish to use that one as a guide, or use IT as a basic source. It's a better version, imho. Very good advice! For common interest(?) I added also this facsimile to the page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Arciliuto/ <> By the way, the Contessa [Marchessa] di Sala was the beautiful Barbara Sanvitale née Sanseverino. Fabritio Dentice was one of her musicians. Interesting! Is there more knowledge of the Contessa and the Court in those years? And who could be the writer of the beautiful ms. 40153? Santino himself? Other pieces are actually quite clear and also artistic, for example the Aria del Gran Duca. Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Andrew Gibbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 20 Oct 2008, at 15:05, David van Ooijen wrote: > >> - the transcription made by Koichi Arakawa in his 'the Collected Lute >> Music of Santino Garsi da Parma (The Lute Society of Nagoya, 1981) > > Hello David - do you know if it's possible to buy this anywhere > (Collected Lute Music of Santino Garsi da Parma)? Just did a quick > google and can't find it - or the The Lute Society of Nagoya... I have no idea. All I have is a photocopied version once given to me by a Japanese friend. It has a typewriter written text and handwritten tablature (nice handwriting btw: Koichi Shibuya did the transcriptions, the title page says). Perhaps a good library might have it for you. But if you're just after getting the collected Garsi da Parma, you might just as well buy the edition by Kirsch. All the facsimile are in there, and transcriptions into guitar notation. Nothing wrong with those. You could read that, or make your own transcription or play from the facsimile. The latter can prove to be a challenge, as some of the handwriting is unclear and Arto has pointed to the major problem in understanding Santino's music: it's rhythms. This Parma Piece is not the only one that will leave you guessing. Anyway, you can make your own decisions with the facsimile. The Japanese editions has none. There is a booklet about Garsi da Parma by Helmuth Osthoff, printed in 1925. I had it in my hands once, even thought I had it somewhere on my bookshelves but cannot seem to find it right now. Perhaps gave it back to its rightful owner, who knows. Nice booklet, as some transcriptions in it are pieces from manuscripts lost in WWII. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
- Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 8:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] The enigma of Marquesa di Sala Hi lutenists, In the Mus. ms. 40032 Biblioteka Jagiellonska Krakow there are some nice pieces for archlute by Santino Garsi da Parma. Among them is an enigmatic piece "Gagliarda della Marquesa di Sala". I just wonder, if anyone in our List is able to solve the problems of the piece, reconstruct the rhythms? You can find the original, my (very) raw and uncorrected copy of the piece and (this time) also the tab-file in page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Arciliuto/ ooo <> Hello, Arto, <> The facsimile and raw transcription is from the Dusiacki Lute Book (Berlin/Cracow Mus ms 40153), fol. 60v-61. Part of the problem in reading it is that the barlines are drawn (for the most part) in duple, whereas the dance is in triple. So a good start would be to ignore the barlines. I think you'll find that in triple meter the dance fits nicely into 4+4 measure phrases. <> Another version is indeed in the Mus Ms 40032 manuscript. Folio 153v/p. 361. Facsimile in Kirsch, very last page (staff lines 1-3, with varied reprise, lines 4-7). You may wish to use that one as a guide, or use IT as a basic source. It's a better version, imho. No transcription in Kirsch. <> Isn't the publisher of Dieter's edition defunct? That is, Gitarre + Laute Verlagsgesellschaft? <> By the way, the Contessa [Marchessa] di Sala was the beautiful Barbara Sanvitale née Sanseverino. Fabritio Dentice was one of her musicians. ooo I have seen one version for (modern) guitar, but that was not very convicing. I do have some ideas, how it should be, but problematic it is... So I thus declare a contest: Who will make the best and most convincing edition of the piece! I will be the judge... ;-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On 20 Oct 2008, at 15:05, David van Ooijen wrote: > - the transcription made by Koichi Arakawa in his 'the Collected Lute > Music of Santino Garsi da Parma (The Lute Society of Nagoya, 1981) Hello David - do you know if it's possible to buy this anywhere (Collected Lute Music of Santino Garsi da Parma)? Just did a quick google and can't find it - or the The Lute Society of Nagoya... Many thanks if you can help Andrew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The enigma of Marquesa di Sala
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi lutenists, > > In the Mus. ms. 40032 Biblioteka Jagiellonska Krakow there are some nice > pieces for archlute by Santino Garsi da Parma. Among them is an enigmatic > piece "Gagliarda della Marquesa di Sala". I just wonder, if anyone in our Arto I'm sending you: -the facsimile (it's in another Santino ms in Krakow, btw, Jagiellinska MS 40153 btw, not MS 40032). - the transcription for guitar made by Dieter Kirsch in his 'Santino Garsi da Parma Lautenwerke - Gesamtausgabe in Tabulatur un Uebertragung Herausgegeben von Dieter Kirsch. Gitarre und Laute G + L 148) - the transcription made by Koichi Arakawa in his 'the Collected Lute Music of Santino Garsi da Parma (The Lute Society of Nagoya, 1981) enjoy your meal ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
