Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Daniel]

On 2023-12-02 02:30, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:

On 12/1/23 13:00, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 01/12/2023 à 12:23, Daniel a écrit :

This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:

https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html

Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area" 
from document settings to pref.


I do not have much to add to what I wrote at the time, I still agree 
this should be a pref.


But it is probably too late for 2.4.


Hard to say. It would be a string change, presumably, so in that sense 
it is too late. But we could add the preference, without UI, and 
unimplemented, now, planning to implement it for 2.4.x. We would then 
have both the document preference and the user preference, but the 
former could be 'hidden' by removing the UI at the same point release as 
when we add UI for the pref.


I know it's a bit hackish, but it would work.

Riki


Sounds good to me. I have created an improvement report accordingly:

https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/13009

Daniel


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Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Richard Kimberly Heck]

On 12/1/23 13:00, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 01/12/2023 à 12:23, Daniel a écrit :

This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:

https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html

Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area" 
from document settings to pref.


I do not have much to add to what I wrote at the time, I still agree 
this should be a pref.


But it is probably too late for 2.4.


Hard to say. It would be a string change, presumably, so in that sense 
it is too late. But we could add the preference, without UI, and 
unimplemented, now, planning to implement it for 2.4.x. We would then 
have both the document preference and the user preference, but the 
former could be 'hidden' by removing the UI at the same point release as 
when we add UI for the pref.


I know it's a bit hackish, but it would work.

Riki


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Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 01/12/2023 à 12:23, Daniel a écrit :

This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:

https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html

Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area" 
from document settings to pref.


I do not have much to add to what I wrote at the time, I still agree 
this should be a pref.


But it is probably too late for 2.4.

JMarc


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Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Isaac Oscar Gariano]

As the width of the LyX text area is variable based on zoom setting as well as 
window size, and screen DPI if is almost certainly not going to be the same as 
the text width in the generated pdf. But in order for justification to look 
good, you often need to reword stuff, or add manual hyphenation or line breaks, 
but doing that to make the LyX display better will make the PDF worse!

So unlike a WYSYWIG editor (like Microsoft Word), I cannot see why you would 
want a justified display in LyX in the first place. So I wonder if anyone 
actually uses this feature?

Although it might be nice if we could get it to be roughly accurate with the 
generated PDF (you'd have to have the document specify the font, font size, and 
text width, and implement TeX's linebreaking algorithm).


— Isaac Oscar Gariano

From: lyx-devel  on behalf of Daniel 

Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:30:52 AM
To: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org 
Subject: Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

On 2023-12-01 12:23, Daniel wrote:
> This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html
>
> Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area"
> from document settings to pref.
>
> I take it the one reason to do so is that the setting is an individual
> preference. I for my part don't like reading text where justification is
> used without proper line-breaking and hyphenation that avoids huge
> spaces and rivers. But I can see that this is still a personal preference.
>
> So, when reading someone else's document I would like it to show up with
> my preferred setting and I wouldn't want to change that person's
> preferred setting of the document (and maybe forget to reset it).
>
> (I have not seen specific reasons against making it a preference.)
>
> Any chance this might be done after all?
>
> Daniel

This was not to complain about LyX line-breaking. I think, given it's
general limitations, it's quite good. But it is no LaTeX output. And the
nice breaking is one reason I prefer reading LaTeX documents.

(I also think typographers generally agree that unless larger spaces and
rivers can be avoided, justification is to be avoided. I take it that is
why it is not used on the web. Maybe a point for avoiding it by default
in LyX as well.)

Daniel

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Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Daniel]

On 2023-12-01 12:23, Daniel wrote:

This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:

https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html

Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area" 
from document settings to pref.


I take it the one reason to do so is that the setting is an individual 
preference. I for my part don't like reading text where justification is 
used without proper line-breaking and hyphenation that avoids huge 
spaces and rivers. But I can see that this is still a personal preference.


So, when reading someone else's document I would like it to show up with 
my preferred setting and I wouldn't want to change that person's 
preferred setting of the document (and maybe forget to reset it).


(I have not seen specific reasons against making it a preference.)

Any chance this might be done after all?

Daniel


This was not to complain about LyX line-breaking. I think, given it's 
general limitations, it's quite good. But it is no LaTeX output. And the 
nice breaking is one reason I prefer reading LaTeX documents.


(I also think typographers generally agree that unless larger spaces and 
rivers can be avoided, justification is to be avoided. I take it that is 
why it is not used on the web. Maybe a point for avoiding it by default 
in LyX as well.)


Daniel

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Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Daniel]

This refers to a surprisingly brief discussion:

https://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org/msg181030.html

Basically, the idea was to move "Use justification in LyX work area" 
from document settings to pref.


I take it the one reason to do so is that the setting is an individual 
preference. I for my part don't like reading text where justification is 
used without proper line-breaking and hyphenation that avoids huge 
spaces and rivers. But I can see that this is still a personal preference.


So, when reading someone else's document I would like it to show up with 
my preferred setting and I wouldn't want to change that person's 
preferred setting of the document (and maybe forget to reset it).


(I have not seen specific reasons against making it a preference.)

Any chance this might be done after all?

Daniel

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Re: 2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes
lasgout...@lyx.org wrote:
 I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the use
 justification in LyX work area within the Document  Settings. I'm
 not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
 move it to Tools  Prefs  LookFeel  Document Handling  Windows 
 Work Area.

 Note that you can make it a global default by saving to default template.

Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help 
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.

Liviu

Re: 2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

04/10/2013 12:09, Liviu Andronic:

Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help 
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.


To be frank, it seems to me that global is the best choice. Add a nice 
toggle icon if the user really wants to change everything depending on 
the phase of the moon and be done with it. When one sends the document 
to somebody else who does not have the same preference, should we add a 
preference disregard setting for justification?


I think we are going too far with per-document settings. Even for 
preferred output, I suspect there could be a better solution, because 
this is often a per-user pref and not really per-document.


Storing this information in session file (with cursor position) would be 
better than in the document, for example.


JMarc

Re: 2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Richard Heck]

On 10/04/2013 06:49 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

04/10/2013 12:09, Liviu Andronic:

Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help 
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.


To be frank, it seems to me that global is the best choice. 


I would agree.

Richard

Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes
 wrote:
>> I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the "use
>> justification in LyX work area" within the Document > Settings. I'm
>> not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
>> move it to Tools > Prefs > Look > Document Handling > Windows &
>> Work Area.
>
> Note that you can make it a global default by saving to default template.
>
Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help >
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.

Liviu

Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

04/10/2013 12:09, Liviu Andronic:

Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help >
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.


To be frank, it seems to me that global is the best choice. Add a nice 
toggle icon if the user really wants to change everything depending on 
the phase of the moon and be done with it. When one sends the document 
to somebody else who does not have the same preference, should we add a 
preference "disregard setting for justification"?


I think we are going too far with per-document settings. Even for 
preferred output, I suspect there could be a better solution, because 
this is often a per-user pref and not really per-document.


Storing this information in session file (with cursor position) would be 
better than in the document, for example.


JMarc

Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Richard Heck]

On 10/04/2013 06:49 AM, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

04/10/2013 12:09, Liviu Andronic:

Sure, but what about existing documents? Say you want to read Help >
Embedded Objects and would rather have non-justified text in the LyX
work area, then you cannot just turn on the option as the document is
read-only: you cannot hit OK in Doc Settings. In a non read-only
document that has been saved, changing this option would also mark the
document as changed, although the final output wouldn't change at all.

I'm not sure which is best: per document setting or global pref.
However it seems to me that the current behaviour can be confusing and
seem inconsistent in some cases.


To be frank, it seems to me that global is the best choice. 


I would agree.

Richard

2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Liviu Andronic]

Dear all,
I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the use
justification in LyX work area within the Document  Settings. I'm
not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
move it to Tools  Prefs  LookFeel  Document Handling  Windows 
Work Area.

As far as I understand Document  Settings deals mostly with items
that actually affect the final output of a document, and this option
isn't such. At best it is confusing to set such an option in Document
 Settings, and not in Tools  Prefs.

What do you think? Should I file a report on this?

Liviu

PS Thanks so much for adding such an option. This was a long-time
favorite on my wish-list.


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Re: 2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2013/10/3 Liviu Andronic landronim...@gmail.com

 As far as I understand Document  Settings deals mostly with items
 that actually affect the final output of a document,


No, it deals with items that only apply for certain documents. IMHO this
makes sense for this option, but it is certainly disputable.

Jürgen

Re: 2.1 beta1: use justification in LyX work area should be a Pref

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 03/10/13 11:58, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

Dear all,
I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the use
justification in LyX work area within the Document  Settings. I'm
not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
move it to Tools  Prefs  LookFeel  Document Handling  Windows 
Work Area.


Note that you can make it a global default by saving to default template.

JMarc

2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Liviu Andronic]

Dear all,
I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the "use
justification in LyX work area" within the Document > Settings. I'm
not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
move it to Tools > Prefs > Look > Document Handling > Windows &
Work Area.

As far as I understand Document > Settings deals mostly with items
that actually affect the final output of a document, and this option
isn't such. At best it is confusing to set such an option in Document
> Settings, and not in Tools > Prefs.

What do you think? Should I file a report on this?

Liviu

PS Thanks so much for adding such an option. This was a long-time
favorite on my wish-list.


-- 
Do you know how to read?
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http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader
Do you know how to write?
http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail

Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

2013/10/3 Liviu Andronic 

> As far as I understand Document > Settings deals mostly with items
> that actually affect the final output of a document,
>

No, it deals with items that only apply for certain documents. IMHO this
makes sense for this option, but it is certainly disputable.

Jürgen

Re: 2.1 beta1: "use justification in LyX work area" should be a Pref

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 03/10/13 11:58, Liviu Andronic a écrit :

Dear all,
I'm now playing around with 2.1 beta1 and I've noticed the "use
justification in LyX work area" within the Document > Settings. I'm
not sure if this was discussed before, but I would suggest that we
move it to Tools > Prefs > Look > Document Handling > Windows &
Work Area.


Note that you can make it a global default by saving to default template.

JMarc