Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-24 Thread Joel Kulesza 
On Thu, Feb 24, 2022 at 6:51 AM Daniel  wrote:

> On 22/02/2022 23:51, Joel Kulesza wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:30 PM Daniel  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 2022-02-22 14:02, Thibaut Cuvelier wrote:
> >  > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:40, Jürgen Spitzmüller  > 
> >  > >> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel
> > mailto:xraco...@gmx.de>
> >  > >>:
> >  >
> >  > I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of
> > Contents" in the
> >  > Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that
> > actually
> >  > appear
> >  > in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings"
> >  > independently
> >  > of whether they actually appear in the TOC.
> >  >
> >  > Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the
> former
> >  > because it
> >  > also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go
> > into the TOC.
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One
> >  > purpose is to easily move around parts of the document.
> >  >
> >  > Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not
> > confuse the
> >  > two?
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or
> "document
> >  > structure".
> >  >
> >  >
> >  > The Outline pane does more than just the sections of the
> > document, it
> >  > would be really weird to rename the ToC "Outline". "Document
> > structure"
> >  > seems better.
> >  > (By the way, Google Docs has a "Outline" pane and Word a
> > "Navigation"
> >  > one, for the same purpose.)
> >
> > I noticed that when one clicks on a "Table of Contents" command
> inset,
> > the Outline with the "Table of Contents" opens. So, I guess that
> > connection is not ideal either currently because not only TOC entries
> > are shown.
> >
> >
> > A few remarks from someone who uses the outline pane heavily to contend
> > with a particularly large and complicated document: please note that
> > many approaches to using the Outline pane exist.  I use the "TOC"
> > entries; however, I heavily use the figure, table, citations,
> > cross-reference, marginal notes, and equation drop-down-based views
> > also.  Accordingly, I recommend not getting too fixated on the
> > terminology in one of many cases.
>
> So, do you mean that the other entries in the outline have also
> terminological or other problems? If it is other problems, then I just
> want to point out that terminology problems are (at least in principle)
> very easy to fix and hence might be worthwhile.
>

Daniel,

I'd actually meant the reverse: I do not see a problem with the current
labeling for any of the components nor would I read into how one uses them
(as a "true" TOC, or merely that of organizational structure).  My thought
is that the content is self evident and thus effort better spent elsewhere.

Thanks,
Joel
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Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-24 Thread Daniel 

On 22/02/2022 23:51, Joel Kulesza wrote:
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:30 PM Daniel > wrote:


On 2022-02-22 14:02, Thibaut Cuvelier wrote:
 > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:40, Jürgen Spitzmüller mailto:sp...@lyx.org>
 > >> wrote:
 >
 >     Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel
mailto:xraco...@gmx.de>
 >     >>:
 >
 >         I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of
Contents" in the
 >         Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that
actually
 >         appear
 >         in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings"
 >         independently
 >         of whether they actually appear in the TOC.
 >
 >         Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the former
 >         because it
 >         also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go
into the TOC.
 >
 >
 >     Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One
 >     purpose is to easily move around parts of the document.
 >
 >         Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not
confuse the
 >         two?
 >
 >
 >     I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or "document
 >     structure".
 >
 >
 > The Outline pane does more than just the sections of the
document, it
 > would be really weird to rename the ToC "Outline". "Document
structure"
 > seems better.
 > (By the way, Google Docs has a "Outline" pane and Word a
"Navigation"
 > one, for the same purpose.)

I noticed that when one clicks on a "Table of Contents" command inset,
the Outline with the "Table of Contents" opens. So, I guess that
connection is not ideal either currently because not only TOC entries
are shown.


A few remarks from someone who uses the outline pane heavily to contend 
with a particularly large and complicated document: please note that 
many approaches to using the Outline pane exist.  I use the "TOC" 
entries; however, I heavily use the figure, table, citations, 
cross-reference, marginal notes, and equation drop-down-based views 
also.  Accordingly, I recommend not getting too fixated on the 
terminology in one of many cases.


So, do you mean that the other entries in the outline have also 
terminological or other problems? If it is other problems, then I just 
want to point out that terminology problems are (at least in principle) 
very easy to fix and hence might be worthwhile.


Daniel

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Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-22 Thread Joel Kulesza 
On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 12:30 PM Daniel  wrote:

> On 2022-02-22 14:02, Thibaut Cuvelier wrote:
> > On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:40, Jürgen Spitzmüller  > > wrote:
> >
> > Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel  > >:
> >
> > I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of Contents" in the
> > Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that actually
> > appear
> > in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings"
> > independently
> > of whether they actually appear in the TOC.
> >
> > Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the former
> > because it
> > also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go into the
> TOC.
> >
> >
> > Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One
> > purpose is to easily move around parts of the document.
> >
> > Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not confuse the
> > two?
> >
> >
> > I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or "document
> > structure".
> >
> >
> > The Outline pane does more than just the sections of the document, it
> > would be really weird to rename the ToC "Outline". "Document structure"
> > seems better.
> > (By the way, Google Docs has a "Outline" pane and Word a "Navigation"
> > one, for the same purpose.)
>
> I noticed that when one clicks on a "Table of Contents" command inset,
> the Outline with the "Table of Contents" opens. So, I guess that
> connection is not ideal either currently because not only TOC entries
> are shown.
>

A few remarks from someone who uses the outline pane heavily to contend
with a particularly large and complicated document: please note that many
approaches to using the Outline pane exist.  I use the "TOC" entries;
however, I heavily use the figure, table, citations, cross-reference,
marginal notes, and equation drop-down-based views also.  Accordingly, I
recommend not getting too fixated on the terminology in one of many cases.

Please contact me with any questions, comments, or concerns in this matter.

Thank you,
Joel
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Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-22 Thread Daniel 

On 2022-02-22 14:02, Thibaut Cuvelier wrote:
On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:40, Jürgen Spitzmüller > wrote:


Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel mailto:xraco...@gmx.de>>:

I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of Contents" in the
Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that actually
appear
in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings"
independently
of whether they actually appear in the TOC.

Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the former
because it
also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go into the TOC.


Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One
purpose is to easily move around parts of the document.

Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not confuse the
two?


I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or "document
structure".


The Outline pane does more than just the sections of the document, it 
would be really weird to rename the ToC "Outline". "Document structure" 
seems better.
(By the way, Google Docs has a "Outline" pane and Word a "Navigation" 
one, for the same purpose.)


I noticed that when one clicks on a "Table of Contents" command inset, 
the Outline with the "Table of Contents" opens. So, I guess that 
connection is not ideal either currently because not only TOC entries 
are shown.


Another alternative would be to leave the Outline entry as "Table of 
Contents" but add a special indication (italics? star in front?) for 
entries that are not visible in the TOC? (I also thought about the 
"Show" "All items"/"Only output items"/"Only non-output items" function 
but that would be ambiguous between the item being visible at all in the 
output - which is what is usually means - and being visible in the TOC.)


This could also incorporate the information from "Numbering & TOC" - 
"Apears in TOC" in Document Settings. I guess it would be nice if one 
could get a picture of what does and does not appear in the TOC directly 
from the outliner.


Another example is the bibliography that as of 
https://www.lyx.org/trac/changeset/a89e3c344b/lyxgit generates a 
bibliography entry but only when in the TOC. I guess it should always 
generate an entry in the Outline (for navigation purposes) but maybe one 
with a special indication (see above) when it is not in the TOC?


Daniel


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Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-22 Thread Thibaut Cuvelier 
On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 13:40, Jürgen Spitzmüller  wrote:

> Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel :
>
>> I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of Contents" in the
>> Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that actually appear
>> in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings" independently
>> of whether they actually appear in the TOC.
>>
>> Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the former because it
>> also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go into the TOC.
>>
>
> Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One purpose is
> to easily move around parts of the document.
>
>
>> Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not confuse the two?
>>
>
> I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or "document
> structure".
>

The Outline pane does more than just the sections of the document, it would
be really weird to rename the ToC "Outline". "Document structure" seems
better.
(By the way, Google Docs has a "Outline" pane and Word a "Navigation" one,
for the same purpose.)
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Re: Purpose of outline's "Table of Contents"?

2022-02-22 Thread Jürgen Spitzmüller 
Am Di., 22. Feb. 2022 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Daniel :

> I am wondering what the purpose of the "Table of Contents" in the
> Outliner is. Is it supposed to show those elements that actually appear
> in the "Table of Contents"? Or all "Sectioning"/"Headings" independently
> of whether they actually appear in the TOC.
>
> Currently, it seems to rather do the latter than the former because it
> also lists "starred" sectioning entries that don't go into the TOC.
>

Yes. Also Frames in beamer and other structural elements. One purpose is to
easily move around parts of the document.


> Maybe a renaming would be worthwhile in order to not confuse the two?
>

I figure the most common term is actually "outline". Or "document
structure".

Jürgen


>
> Daniel
>
>
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