A blog would be great for intermediate users, and I agree hole
heartedly, it's more accessible than a wiki. However, we have to think
perhaps about getting to those who can't navigate the net just yet as
well. Perhaps working with apple to supplement their docs as well,
then after the
Hmm, let's see if i can formulate this so that it makes sence... I
think that you have some valid points in what you're saying, however
that info in the beginning about how to get help should, imho be
optional, that is if it was there, you should be able to turn it on
and off. I for one
I think what is important is you learn how to navigate with VO and
then learn the applications as would any other user regardless of
their ability or disability. I may be recalling incorrectly since it
has been years since I bothered reading the manual for Window-EYes,
but I think
I agree, the welcome dialog will have an option to show at startup or
not, there could also be an option to show help message at startup or
something. My hope is that these help instructions will be put into
the welcome screen.
Mike
On Jun 12, 2009, at 5:08 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
Also, if more documentation is required, Really what would stop one or
two of us from building a document ourselves and making it available?
If we want to leave feature implimentation to apple, between most of
us on the list proactive written documentation available and offered
to apple
Like I said I'm not sure what the right solution is. I think there
should at least be a basic tutorial that covers the use of vo with the
finder maybe and other things. Again I really don't know how this
will be balanced or solved.
Mike
On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you.
My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a
dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my
next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got
myself grounded. Windows 95 98
I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing
much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This
guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and
it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all
that. They
Hi,
How many legs did your Windows conputer come with in the firstplace.
*Alex checks and none of his computers have legs* See, it is easier to
stop them running away this way, ... :).
Anyways, I have loved OS X since 2005, and would not use my Windows VM
probably ever except for miner
Oh, so that's what it is...!
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Michael Reiser wrote:
They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to
discredit someone else.
Mike
On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote:
Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if
This happens everywhere. The ONCE in Spain, which is the equivalent of
the NFB, does exactly the same.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:04 AM, Mark Baxter wrote:
This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with
scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be
And add to this what the vendors tell you. I don't know how it is in
Spain or the States or elsewhere, but here in Sweden, people tend to
rely very heavily on what vendors are saying, and if they say that the
Mac is trying to do something accessible but isn't ready yet, then
true or not,
What we have is an opportunity to point out the few negatives that
matter to apple such as mixing the commandsets together from osx and
vo, real good stuff to look at, but the rest of it is pretty much a
statement of praising windows os and the way that those screen readers
handle things.
I definitely agree. I think enough blind people will continue
to look at mac to make it still a viable option.
MikeOn Jun 10, 2009, at 1:04 AM, Mark Baxter wrote:
This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with
scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless
That's great. Let me just say I did not intend any offense with my
comment on the older/younger thing. My apologeez if any offense was
taken.
Mike
On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote:
I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the
old. I first heard
That's just my interpritation on it, I have no prough either way but
that's how it feels.
Mike
On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:46 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
Oh, so that's what it is...!
On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Michael Reiser wrote:
They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they
We could also suggest that apple put the basic keyboard commands and
basics on using the mac in the tutorial. Would this be sent to Apple
accessibility?
Mike
On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:08 AM, kaare dehard wrote:
What we have is an opportunity to point out the few negatives that
matter to
There is a vo users's guide on the apple site. It's in pdf, braille,
and in other formats I believe.
Mike
On Jun 10, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
Is there actually a manual made for VO? I should ofcourse know, but
i'm not sure if it's only this getting started thingy. There
Well I got my mac in March of this year because I don't want to mess
with Windows seven. I'm 47 in October. Does that mean I'm young? :)
On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote:
I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the
old. I first heard rumblings that
Hello Peggy and all:
Then that makes me just one of those darn meddling kids at 40 (grin)..
Given the writing of the article in the Braille Monitor it looks like
I will need to renew my annual membership in S.O.S. (stamp out
stupidity). Thought I could save the 20 bucks this year. Oh well,
hi I am a proud nfb member if this is know longer a mac voiceover list
and a nfb bashing list I will lev the list but I don't wunt to due
thiat this must stop and get back to voiceover.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:03 AM, patrickneazer wrote:
Hello Peggy and all:
Then that makes me just
Hi Maurice,
I, too, am a proud (and active) NFB member. That doesn't negate that
this article was not a responsible or accurate portrayal. Do I expect
every VO review to be full of nothing but glowing praise? Certainly
not, but I do expect it to at least be accurate and written by someone
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
One little nit from the article is they mention that you can go up
to any osx 10.5 box to use VO. Really you can do VO on 10.4 as well.
You don't have to have only the latest OSX to use
Please do that. At least you seem to have the patience to do it. I
wouldn't bother...
On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
Hi Maurice,
I, too, am a proud (and active) NFB member. That doesn't negate that
this article was not a responsible or accurate portrayal. Do I expect
Of course this is just my opinion, but I like how commands are set for
web browsing with VO. I never had trouble remembering them, or in any
case I don't find them any harder than the ones for JAWS, NVDA or
others.
On Jun 10, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Ryan Mann wrote:
It's true that commands
The only part I disagree with is that Apple has not settled for the
position of fancy home computer or whatever. In fact we use Macs
extensively where I work and I'm in the process of making the switch
at work as I had done years ago at home. Apple takes all segments of
the market
Jenny, you pup at 32. All good points for a whipper-snapper. :)
On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kenn
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You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since
2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me
considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for
me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do
with the fact
Buddy, you should and I will help if you need it. This is one of those
times when you need to say, set aside what you know about windows
because they were clearly expecting it to be like windows, and when
they found it wasn't, then it's a bad thing in their view and a bad
thing.
On Jun
Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if
they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so
that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the
section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while
there are some legitimate
They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to
discredit someone else.
Mike
On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote:
Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if
they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so
that they
Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but
does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as
like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it
was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame
war, but I am curious
I agree. You may use more keystrokes on a mac, but a sighted user is
going to also need to scroll the screen etc. It seems like when they
did this review, if it didn't do things the way a windows screen
reader does, then it's unfortunate. Even if many blind users have used
windows, so
I didn't like this article for the most part. I didn't think it was
quite fair. In fact I thought it was pretty negitive. One thing I
tell other blind people about Mac and VoiceOver is to keep firm in
their mind it is not Windows and JAWS or WindowEyes. Compairing Apples
and Microsofts is like
I agree with everything said. Mac popularity has grown despite access
world which buy the way did write a very nice review of lepard last
September. I don't think blind people will just go buy that as a
facter. I really think the younger blind crowd will embrace mac more
and the older
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