Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[lenron brown]

Exactly Karen a hand dance. Yes I would say give caps lock vo a try. I
am for sure going to pick up a full size keyboard with the numpad as
soon as I can. Especially if that can help with interacting.

On 9/10/23, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:
> I agree that interaction makes working with the Mac much more efficient.
> Having to navigate through every individual item would be unbearable.
>
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on
> behalf of Brad Snyder 
> Date: Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 09:05
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> If you find Interacting so annoying, you can turn it off in VoiceOver
> Utility, under the Navigation category > Grouping Behavior.
> There are 4 options to choose from: Standard, Bookend Groups, Announce
> groups, and Ignore groups.
> Also, you can use the Tab key to enter and exit areas that require
> interaction, without using VO + Shift + Up/Down Arrow keys.
>
> Personally, I find using standard grouping with interacting to be a highly
> efficient method of navigating.
> It allows for skipping over regions such as Toolbars, and tables when I
> don’t need to interact with these regions.
> I have been using a Mac for over 10 years, and this has been one of my
> favorite features of using a Mac with VoiceOver.
>
> - Brad -
>
>
> On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:
>
> Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
> the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
> key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
> no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
> whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
> am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.
>
> On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
>
> There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
> functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
> available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
> toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same
> time.
>  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
> commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:
>
> I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?
>
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
>
> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
> So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
>
> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
> just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
> pointer there won’t do it.
>
>
>
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> on behalf of Brad Snyder 
> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
>
>
>
> - Brad -
>
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
>
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
> heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
> content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
> frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
> route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
> particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
>
>
>
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
> causing your problems here.
>
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
> annoying aspect.
>
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>
>
>
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
> 
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Mary Ward' via MacVisionaries]

I have begun to appreciate interaction, though I disliked it quite a bit at 
first.   

The approach used by Windows screen readers also has advantages and 
disadvantages.  The screen reader has decided for you in advance what you 
consider the working part of the screen.  It’s great when it works, but it 
doesn’t always, and you need a lot of skill to get around these restrictions 
when you can’t get to or use an essential part of the screen.  All screen 
readers are attempting to make visual information non visual.  That’s a tall 
order.  Any approach will have advantages and disadvantages over any other 
approach.  One isn’t good and the other evil.  But since most of us don’t have 
the choice to just quit being blind, we just have to make a choice and live 
with it.  But whichever one we choose, we are going to get better results if we 
learn that screen reader as well as we can.  


> On Sep 10, 2023, at 12:08 PM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I agree that interaction makes working with the Mac much more efficient. 
> Having to navigate through every individual item would be unbearable.
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
> behalf of Brad Snyder 
> Date: Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 09:05
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> If you find Interacting so annoying, you can turn it off in VoiceOver 
> Utility, under the Navigation category > Grouping Behavior.
> There are 4 options to choose from: Standard, Bookend Groups, Announce 
> groups, and Ignore groups.
> Also, you can use the Tab key to enter and exit areas that require 
> interaction, without using VO + Shift + Up/Down Arrow keys.
>  
> Personally, I find using standard grouping with interacting to be a highly 
> efficient method of navigating.
> It allows for skipping over regions such as Toolbars, and tables when I don’t 
> need to interact with these regions.
> I have been using a Mac for over 10 years, and this has been one of my 
> favorite features of using a Mac with VoiceOver.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
>  
> On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:
>  
> Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
> the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
> key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
> no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
> whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
> am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.
> 
> On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
> 
> There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
> functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
> available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
> toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
>  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
> commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:
> 
> I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?
> 
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
> 
> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
> So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
> 
> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
> just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
> pointer there won’t do it.
> 
> 
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> on behalf of Brad Snyder 
> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
> 
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
> 
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
> heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
> content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
> frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
> route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
> particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionar

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

I agree that interaction makes working with the Mac much more efficient. Having 
to navigate through every individual item would be unbearable.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 09:05
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
If you find Interacting so annoying, you can turn it off in VoiceOver Utility, 
under the Navigation category > Grouping Behavior.
There are 4 options to choose from: Standard, Bookend Groups, Announce groups, 
and Ignore groups.
Also, you can use the Tab key to enter and exit areas that require interaction, 
without using VO + Shift + Up/Down Arrow keys.

Personally, I find using standard grouping with interacting to be a highly 
efficient method of navigating.
It allows for skipping over regions such as Toolbars, and tables when I don’t 
need to interact with these regions.
I have been using a Mac for over 10 years, and this has been one of my favorite 
features of using a Mac with VoiceOver.

- Brad -


On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:

Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.

On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:

There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
 Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:

I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?


On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.

Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
pointer there won’t do it.



From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
on behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
that point onward.



- Brad -


On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
particular heading onwards using arrow keys.



Andrew




On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:



I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
causing your problems here.

I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
annoying aspect.

Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.



From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.



Andrew





On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:



I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:



Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Karen Lewellen]

Is not it amazing that choices exists so that one can create he 
interaction process  that works best for them?
May have to look into making the vo key cap lock instead.  On some laptops 
there is only one combination on one side.
I type very fast indeed.  Personally it is frustrating being slowed down 
while I try to create just the right hand dance for vo keys and something 
else.
Imagine the beauty here is that everyone brings their individual 
experience to computing, and seemingly Apple has a path allowing inclusion 
for that experience, most of the time at least.
Now, if I could just sit in the same room as a trainer and learn the basics 
so I could use the thing laughs!




On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, Brad Snyder wrote:


If you find Interacting so annoying, you can turn it off in VoiceOver Utility, 
under the Navigation category > Grouping Behavior.
There are 4 options to choose from: Standard, Bookend Groups, Announce groups, 
and Ignore groups.
Also, you can use the Tab key to enter and exit areas that require interaction, 
without using VO + Shift + Up/Down Arrow keys.

Personally, I find using standard grouping with interacting to be a highly 
efficient method of navigating.
It allows for skipping over regions such as Toolbars, and tables when I don???t 
need to interact with these regions.
I have been using a Mac for over 10 years, and this has been one of my favorite 
features of using a Mac with VoiceOver.

- Brad -



On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:

Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.

On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:

There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
 Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56???AM, Tom Rash  wrote:

???I???m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?


On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

That must be exactly why I don???t encounter the issue. I always use VO
commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.

Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
just to be sure you???re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
pointer there won???t do it.



From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
on behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
that point onward.



- Brad -


On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

???In Apple???s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
route mouse to voiceover I still don???t seem to be able to read from a
particular heading onwards using arrow keys.



Andrew




On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:



I???ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don???t know what is
causing your problems here.

I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
Outlook crashes ??? then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
annoying aspect.

Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.



From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.



Andrew





On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:



I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platfo

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Brad Snyder]

If you find Interacting so annoying, you can turn it off in VoiceOver Utility, 
under the Navigation category > Grouping Behavior.
There are 4 options to choose from: Standard, Bookend Groups, Announce groups, 
and Ignore groups.
Also, you can use the Tab key to enter and exit areas that require interaction, 
without using VO + Shift + Up/Down Arrow keys.

Personally, I find using standard grouping with interacting to be a highly 
efficient method of navigating.
It allows for skipping over regions such as Toolbars, and tables when I don’t 
need to interact with these regions.
I have been using a Mac for over 10 years, and this has been one of my favorite 
features of using a Mac with VoiceOver.

- Brad -



On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:

Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.

On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
> There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
> functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
> available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
> toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
>  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
> commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?
>> 
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
>>> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
>>> So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
>>> 
>>> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
>>> just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
>>> pointer there won’t do it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> on behalf of Brad Snyder 
>>> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>> 
>>> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
>>> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
>>> that point onward.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
>>> heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
>>> content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
>>> frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
>>> route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
>>> particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>>>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>>>> causing your problems here.
>>>> 
>>>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>>>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>>>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>>>> annoying aspect.
>>>> 
>>>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>> 
>>>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>>> 
>>>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>&

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Chanelle Allen]

I use Numpad Commander on my Apple Magic Keyboard with Numeric Keypad. 
Interacting is so much easier. Interact with Numpad 9 and uninteract with 
Numpad 7.

> On Sep 10, 2023, at 04:57, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
> the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
> key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
> no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
> whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
> am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.
> 
> On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
>> There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
>> functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
>> available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
>> toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
>>  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
>> commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
>>>> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
>>>> So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
>>>> just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
>>>> pointer there won’t do it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> on behalf of Brad Snyder 
>>>> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>>> 
>>>> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
>>>> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
>>>> that point onward.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
>>>> heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
>>>> content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
>>>> frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
>>>> route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
>>>> particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Andrew
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>>>>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>>>>> causing your problems here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>>>>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>>>>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>>>>> annoying aspect.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>>> 
>>>>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>>>>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>>>>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>>>

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[lenron brown]

Interacting is one of the most annoying things, look for some using
the vo key along with another key can be much if I have to hold the vo
key and do other stuff. I made my vo key caps lock. Because there is
no way I am using 3 keys buy using option and the command key, then
whatever other key I need to press. Also Safari seems to be fine but I
am not testing the beta. I do however prefer chrome or firefox.

On 9/9/23, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
> There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its
> functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are
> available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only
> toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.
>  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad
> commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:
>>
>> I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?
>>
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO
>>> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display).
>>> So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
>>>
>>> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4,
>>> just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse
>>> pointer there won’t do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> on behalf of Brad Snyder 
>>> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>>
>>> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
>>> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
>>> that point onward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Brad -
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a
>>> heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the
>>> content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself
>>> frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I
>>> route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a
>>> particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>>>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>>>> causing your problems here.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>>>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>>>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>>>> annoying aspect.
>>>>
>>>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>>> 
>>>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>>>
>>>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>>>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>>>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>>>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>>>> like my mac for vocr an

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Jonathan C. Cohn]

There is a toggle command for VO keys but it is not used much and its functionality has decresed now that the rotar and quicknav keys are available. The quicknav keys work like JAWS virtual cursor, but are only toggled manually by pressing the left and right arrow keys at the same time.  Personally I like using a keyboard with a numpad and turning on numpad commander then 2, 4, 6, and 8 do the VO  commands up, left, right and down.     Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 9, 2023, at 7:56 AM, Tom Rash  wrote:I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?  On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries  wrote:






That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display). So far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4, just to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse pointer there won’t do it. 


From:
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from that point onward.






















 
- Brad -


On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly
 at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
 

Andrew




On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:
 

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your problems here.

I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the
 very annoying aspect. 

Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

 



From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them
 - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.


 



Andrew









On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown <lenro...@gmail.com> wrote:


 


I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed <m10fa...@gmail.com> wrote:





Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed







On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson <dgcarlson0...@gmail.com> wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Du

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Tom Rash]

I’m still new whe it comes to the Mac.  Is this a toggle command?  

> On Sep 8, 2023, at 9:40 AM, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO 
> commands when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display). So 
> far as I remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
> Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4, just 
> to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse pointer there 
> won’t do it.
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
> behalf of Brad Snyder 
> Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email 
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from 
> that point onward.
>  
> - Brad -
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or 
> link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath 
> the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of 
> the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t 
> seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
>  
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
> Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
> problems here.
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft 
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some 
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying 
> aspect. 
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>  
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  <mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
>

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Karen Lewellen]

brad,
accessibility is neither about blindness or limiting choices speaking 
personally.
Arrow key function meets several needs, that likely cannot be matched by 
removing your hands  for the option you suggest.

For example, does it work via voice?
Many times voice driven tools match arrow key manipulation.
And, if a party has been successfully navigating with arrow keys, and that 
stops working, how will they effortlessly learn a solution?
Again speaking personally, the more paths to a door the greater the tool 
is accessible for the widest number of individuals.  All of whom embody 
their disability experience uniquely.

Just my take,
Karen


On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, Brad Snyder wrote:


It's not a big deal.
It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
that point onward.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
arrow keys.

Andrew


On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
 wrote:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
causing your problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.


From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries

Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
“Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this
list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a
lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking
about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

No, Linux is on an x86 machine. I’m leaving the mac to MacOS, and I’m avoiding 
virtualization (too many opportunities for issues, and not worth the effort).

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of Anders Holmberg 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 13:51
To: 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
Jason!
Do you have linux installed on your Mac?
Bless.
/A


8 sep. 2023 kl. 13:27 skrev 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com<mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown 
mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com<mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan 
mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

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"MacVisionaries" grou

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
The interaction has been my biggest issue since I started with Mac. Now even 
the music app has that in the Apple Music session.
I hate it.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 17:21 skrev Brad Snyder :
> 
> It's not a big deal.
> It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
> everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
> always feel like I have to do combos for most things.
> 
> On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
>> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
>> that point onward.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
>> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
>> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
>> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
>> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
>> arrow keys.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>>> causing your problems here.
>>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>>> annoying aspect.
>>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>>> 
>>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>> 
>>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>>> 
>>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>>>>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
>>>>> the
>>>>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>>>>> duration.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
>>>>> VO.
>>>>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
>>>>> to
>>>>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
>>>>> iOS.
>>>>> I hope they fix it soon.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
>>>>>> compared
>>>>>> to W

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Jason!
Do you have linux installed on your Mac?
Bless.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 13:27 skrev 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
> :
> 
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
> Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
> problems here.
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft 
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some 
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying 
> aspect. 
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>  
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  <mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  <mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
> you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
> 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I normally do not have issues with such things in mail.
There are other things in the mail app that has gone strange in the beta.
I try my best to give the feedback I can.
/A

> 8 sep. 2023 kl. 03:06 skrev Jonathan Cohn :
> 
> What are you talking about, VoiceOver for Mac with the Mail application has 
> always respected using the goto header functions.
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
> Jonathan Cohn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
>> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
>> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
>> impossible task in Apple mail.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>> 
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
>>> wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
 performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
 
 For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
 exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
 duration.
 
 For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
 You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
 
 Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
 get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
 
 The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and 
 iOS.
 I hope they fix it soon.
 
 Hope that helps,
 
 Mohamed E. Fayed
 
 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  > wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/1B0EC27E-B19C-4661-B8FC-8B1DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.
> 
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I have an m1 Mac mini and it was a huge difference but safari has gone worse in 
the beta so I use firefox.
/A

> 7 sep. 2023 kl. 19:33 skrev Traci Duncan :
> 
> Ok, this is mostly good feedback. Thanks. I want to stick with Mac, just 
> because it is far more natural now.
> 
> I do use duck duck go for searching, but constantly get safari not 
> responding. Is Google Chrome preferred?
> 
> I also get music not responding.
> 
> I had heard upgrading to a m2 MBA will make a big difference.
> 
> Thanks all,
> Traci
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in 
>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>> 
>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the 
>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter 
>> duration.
>> 
>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO. 
>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>> 
>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to 
>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>> 
>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS. 
>> I hope they fix it soon.
>> 
>> Hope that helps,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared to 
>>> Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously 
>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop. 
>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari 
>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>> 
>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac 
>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a 
>>> coin on the decision.
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
>>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>>> 
>>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot 
>>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>>> 
>>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
>>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should 
>>> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 
>>> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>>> 
>>> What are your guises thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> From Traci's MBA20.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/1B0EC27E-B19C-4661-B8FC-8B1DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>  
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>>  
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A5DBBA06-E437-4155-882D-E7D4E91D0C82%40gmail.com
>>>  
>>> 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
The beta has gone a bit better but there’s still issues.
But if there’s no one testing there will not bee any good results either.
/A

> 7 sep. 2023 kl. 18:58 skrev josephlho...@gmail.com:
> 
> I am normally not a Doom and gloom person, but my experience with the beta
> has been very poor. Using Safari or Microsoft Edge if I'm moving by Headings
> or controls voiceover often crashes and I cannot bring it back. So much with
> web navigation is broken. Top it all off with my message this morning in
> that if I'm just moving literally with the right and left arrow keys through
> a page speech is stopping it's very awful. I'm hoping that maybe just all of
> the voice over things haven't made it into the beta and there will be this
> moment where clarity happens but sadly the Mac doesn't get the sort of
> support it needs from the community and requesting that things get better. I
> actually downgraded my computer back to the current OS and am going to let
> folks report back to what they see. I did file tickets, so I am hopeful. To
> be honest I wouldn't buy a Mac at this moment until I see the end result of
> the final product. I love the Mac hardware nothing really rivals it, but for
> us accessibility is just not trending in the right direction.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On
> Behalf Of Traci Duncan
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:24 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should
> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900
> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:
> mktay@ucla.eduUsing  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/1B0EC27E-B19C-4661-B8FC-8B1
> DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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> 

-- 
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mai

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

That must be exactly why I don’t encounter the issue. I always use VO commands 
when reading text (either via keyboard or the braille display). So far as I 
remember, this is what the documentation recommends.
Also, the command to move keyboard cursor to VO cursor is VO-Command-F4, just 
to be sure you’re trying the right function. Moving the mouse pointer there 
won’t do it.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on 
behalf of Brad Snyder 
Date: Friday, September 8, 2023 at 09:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email message, 
rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from that point 
onward.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:
In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or 
link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath 
the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of 
the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem 
to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.

Andrew


On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com<mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew



On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown 
mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed




On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com<mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan 
mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still h

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Dennis Clark]

Hello Andrew,

Which email program do you use on windows that you have found better 
than the mail program on the Mac? I have been pretty satisfied with the 
Mac email program, but I think I am not doing the task you described. I 
have Thunderbird on my Windows machine and it is at best just okay in my 
experience. Thanks for your information.


Dennis



On 9/7/2023 12:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries wrote:
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web 
navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can 
swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate 
them - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.


Andrew


On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed > wrote:

Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you 
make the

exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related 
to VO.

You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a 
chance to

get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac 
and iOS.

I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed


On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  
wrote:


My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful 
compared

to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying 
“Safari

is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on 
the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just 
flip a

coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on 
this list

about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or 
are a lot

of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking 
about

updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance 
issues.


What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
From Traci's MBA20.

--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac
Visionaries list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or

if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach 
Cara at

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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Brad Snyder]

It's not a big deal.
It's just a key stroke, same as using the arrow keys.

- Brad -

On Sep 8, 2023, at 09:10, lenron brown  wrote:

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
> 
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
> arrow keys.
> 
> Andrew
> 
>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>> causing your problems here.
>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>> annoying aspect.
>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>> 
>> 
>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>> 
>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>> 
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>> 
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>>>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>>>> 
>>>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
>>>> the
>>>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>>>> duration.
>>>> 
>>>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
>>>> VO.
>>>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>>>> 
>>>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
>>>> to
>>>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>>>> 
>>>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
>>>> iOS.
>>>> I hope they fix it soon.
>>>> 
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>> 
>>>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
>>>>> compared
>>>>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>>>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>>>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
>>>>> “Safari
>>>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
>>>>> Mac
>>>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
>>>>> a
>>>>> coin o

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[lenron brown]

But that's just it it's extra steps having to use those keys for
everything. It's always been one of my gripes with using the mac. I
always feel like I have to do combos for most things.

On 9/8/23, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email
> message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from
> that point onward.
>
> - Brad -
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>  wrote:
>
> In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading
> or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content
> underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the
> beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I
> still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using
> arrow keys.
>
> Andrew
>
>> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on
>> the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is
>> causing your problems here.
>> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft
>> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some
>> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very
>> annoying aspect.
>> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>>
>>
>> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries
>> 
>> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
>>
>> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation
>> and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and
>> reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a
>> difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>>>
>>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>>>
>>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>>>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>>>>
>>>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make
>>>> the
>>>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>>>> duration.
>>>>
>>>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to
>>>> VO.
>>>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>>>>
>>>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance
>>>> to
>>>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>>>>
>>>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and
>>>> iOS.
>>>> I hope they fix it soon.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>
>>>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful
>>>>> compared
>>>>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>>>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>>>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying
>>>>> “Safari
>>>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the
>>>>> Mac
>>>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip
>>>>> a
>>>>> coin on the decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave Carlson
>>>>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>>&

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Brad Snyder]

You can avoid this issue by, after navigating to a Heading in an email message, rather than using arrow keys, use VO navigation to navigate from that point onward.- Brad -On Sep 8, 2023, at 07:50, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.AndrewOn 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries  wrote:I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your problems here.I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect. Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading. From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibilityI agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail. AndrewOn 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote: I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. Iuse both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. Ilike my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some thingscan just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and acouple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:Hi,I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain inperformance is tremendous and you will notice it.For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make theexact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorterduration.For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance toget to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.I hope they fix it soon.Hope that helps,Mohamed E. FayedOn 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful comparedto Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriouslyconsider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safariis Busy” message that cripples my productivity.So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Macdoes not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip acoin on the decision.Dave CarlsonWoodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfardgcarlson0...@gmail.comOn Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this listabout the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lotof you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking aboutupdating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed tospend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.What are your guises thoughts?Thank you,From Traci's MBA20.--The following information is important for all members of the MacVisionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, orif you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact theowners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach markat:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara atcaraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups"MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send anemail to 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

In Apple’s mail app, oftentimes in newslettters, when I jump to a heading or 
link using voiceover commands and then attempt to read the content underneath 
the heading with arrow keys, I find myself frustratingly at the beginning of 
the newsletter again.  Even when I route mouse to voiceover I still don’t seem 
to be able to read from a particular heading onwards using arrow keys.

Andrew

> On 8 Sep 2023, at 12:27, 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
> Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
> problems here.
> I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft 
> Outlook crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some 
> cases, having to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying 
> aspect. 
> Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.
>  
> From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>>
> Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
>  
> Andrew
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  <mailto:lenro...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed
> 
> 
> 
> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  <mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> ow

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

I’ve successfully navigated headings, links, etc., in e-mail messages on the 
Mac, suing the usual Voiceover commands. So I don’t know what is causing your 
problems here.
I agree that such navigation works well under Windows, until Microsoft Outlook 
crashes – then of course, one loses time restarting it, in some cases, having 
to repair the data file corruption, which is the very annoying aspect.
Mozilla Thunderbird under Linux performs quite well for e-mail reading.

From: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
Date: Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 15:18
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility
I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew


On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
I hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed



On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
coin on the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac
Visionaries list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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--
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Visionaries list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at:
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@google

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Jürgen Fleger]

Ihr understand your frustration. Sometimes Ihr experience the same frustration. But all in all I'm quite happy with my Macs. Don't forget you are using aber beta version. I'd rather have seen Apple kept the policy of keeping beta experiences sicret. It often makes people insecure and frustrated. Von meinem iPhone gesendetAm 08.09.2023 um 03:07 schrieb Jonathan Cohn :What are you talking about, VoiceOver for Mac with the Mail application has always respected using the goto header functions.
		Best wishes,Jonathan Cohn

On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries  wrote:I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not impossible task in Apple mail.AndrewOn 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. Iuse both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. Ilike my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some thingscan just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and acouple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:Hi,I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain inperformance is tremendous and you will notice it.For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make theexact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorterduration.For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance toget to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.I hope they fix it soon.Hope that helps,Mohamed E. FayedOn 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful comparedto Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriouslyconsider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safariis Busy” message that cripples my productivity.So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Macdoes not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip acoin on the decision.Dave CarlsonWoodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfardgcarlson0...@gmail.comOn Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this listabout the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lotof you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking aboutupdating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed tospend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.What are your guises thoughts?Thank you,From Traci's MBA20.--The following information is important for all members of the MacVisionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, orif you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact theowners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach markat:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara atcaraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups"MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send anemail to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/1B0EC27E-B19C-4661-B8FC-8B1DB2953F0D%40gmail.com.--The following information is important for all members of the MacVisionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, orif you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact theowners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at:mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara atcaraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/---You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups"MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Jonathan Cohn]

What are you talking about, VoiceOver for Mac with the Mail application has 
always respected using the goto header functions.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:18 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
> even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
> navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
> impossible task in Apple mail.
> 
> Andrew
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
>> 
>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>> 
>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
>> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>>> 
>>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
>>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>>> duration.
>>> 
>>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
>>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>>> 
>>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
>>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>>> 
>>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
>>> I hope they fix it soon.
>>> 
>>> Hope that helps,
>>> 
>>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>>> 
>>> 
 On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
 
 My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
 to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
 consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
 I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
 is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
 
 So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
 does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
 coin on the decision.
 
 Dave Carlson
 Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
 dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
 
 
 
 On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
 
 Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
 about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
 
 Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
 of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
 
 I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
 updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
 should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
 spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
 
 What are your guises thoughts?
 
 Thank you,
 From Traci's MBA20.
 
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 The archives for this list 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Mike Arrigo]

Wait until you try the Apple Silicon mac, it is so much better and faster than 
the Intel, you will love it.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 11:53 AM, Maurice A. Mines  wrote:
> 
> Hi  I am  having  some  small  issues, but  no  showstoppers whin  it comes  
> to  Mac OS accessibility. That  being said. I am using  a  beta on  an Intel 
> based Mac. I  am  switching  to  a  silicon based Mac next week. If  I  need 
> Windows for  dictation, thin  I will  use a virtual Windows  installation, to 
>  allow  me  to  due  that.
> 
> Maurice Mines.
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 16:23, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>> 
>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot 
>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>> 
>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should 
>> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 
>> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>> 
>> What are your guises thoughts?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> From Traci's MBA20.
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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> 
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> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Mike Arrigo]

I’m quite happy with my macs, especially the new Apple Silicon models, I have 
no interest at all in switching to Windows.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[matthew dyer]

Hi,

Using an m1 Mac book air and do not have any of the crashing or busy messages 
mentioned.  That’s interesting.  I also have both an Intel Mac mini and a 
windows 11 desktop.  I find that my MBA is pretty stable.  I am able to do 
email and web browsing just fine without any problem.  Perhaps this has to do 
with certain websites.

Matthew



> On Sep 7, 2023, at 3:26 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> I second this.
> 
> I use both my Mac and my PC daily.  I teach online, and mostly I prefer the 
> way JAWS and Windows handles the LMS, so I doubt I’ll ever not have a PC.  
> But I’m also amazed at how frustrating things that should be simple can be on 
> Windows.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 12:32 PM, lenron brown  wrote:
>> 
>> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
>> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
>> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
>> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
>> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
>> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
>> 
>> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>>> 
>>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
>>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>>> duration.
>>> 
>>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
>>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>>> 
>>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
>>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>>> 
>>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
>>> I hope they fix it soon.
>>> 
>>> Hope that helps,
>>> 
>>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>>> 
>>> 
 On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
 
 My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
 to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
 consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
 I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
 is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
 
 So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
 does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
 coin on the decision.
 
 Dave Carlson
 Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
 dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
 
 
 
 On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
 
 Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
 about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
 
 Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
 of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
 
 I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
 updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
 should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
 spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
 
 What are your guises thoughts?
 
 Thank you,
 From Traci's MBA20.
 
 --
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac
 Visionaries list.
 
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 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
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 at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
 caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

I second this.

I use both my Mac and my PC daily.  I teach online, and mostly I prefer the way 
JAWS and Windows handles the LMS, so I doubt I’ll ever not have a PC.  But I’m 
also amazed at how frustrating things that should be simple can be on Windows.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 12:32 PM, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>> 
>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>> duration.
>> 
>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>> 
>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>> 
>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
>> I hope they fix it soon.
>> 
>> Hope that helps,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
>>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>> 
>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
>>> coin on the decision.
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
>>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>>> 
>>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
>>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>>> 
>>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
>>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
>>> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
>>> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>>> 
>>> What are your guises thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> From Traci's MBA20.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>>> 
>>> 
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>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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>>> To 

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

I agree and I use the same tactic: Windows is superior on web navigation and 
even email when it comes to newsletters where you can swiftly and reliably 
navigate through headings and links and activate them - a difficult if not 
impossible task in Apple mail.

Andrew

> On 7 Sep 2023, at 18:32, lenron brown  wrote:
> 
> I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
> use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
> with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
> like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
> can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
> couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.
> 
> On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed mailto:m10fa...@gmail.com>> 
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
>> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>> 
>> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
>> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
>> duration.
>> 
>> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
>> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>> 
>> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
>> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>> 
>> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
>> I hope they fix it soon.
>> 
>> Hope that helps,
>> 
>> Mohamed E. Fayed
>> 
>> 
>>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
>>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
>>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>> 
>>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
>>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
>>> coin on the decision.
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
>>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>>> 
>>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
>>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>>> 
>>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
>>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
>>> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
>>> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>>> 
>>> What are your guises thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> From Traci's MBA20.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
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>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

Well, I have bought a Windows laptop and I’m making sure I use it since I no 
longer think Apple is always going to stick to their original commitment to 
blind people.  I also find using the internet on a Windows machine a much more 
pleasant and efficient experience. 

Andrew 

> On 7 Sep 2023, at 17:23, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Yes I am really concerned especially as I am testing out the Sonoma beta.
It has a lot of issues with both mail and safari and braille usage too.
But there seems to be no  other than me on the public beta list that is testing 
the Mac.
In windows you know what you get and you can use nada for example.
I am thinming of going to Linux but then I don’t have Apple Music support so 
its a bit of thinking right now.
And still we should not give up and try to get in touch with the accessibility 
team.
BUt i am both worried and frustrated.
Bless.
/A7 sep. 2023 kl. 18:23 skrev Traci Duncan :
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

['E.T.' via MacVisionaries]

   You may have heard the saying, "the grass is greener on the other 
side". In my opinion its more practical to learn to work around any 
shortcomings.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
"Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much."
 -Helen Keller
My e-Mail:
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/7/2023 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list about 
the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
 From Traci's MBA20.



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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Traci Duncan]

Ok, this is mostly good feedback. Thanks. I want to stick with Mac, just 
because it is far more natural now.

I do use duck duck go for searching, but constantly get safari not responding. 
Is Google Chrome preferred?

I also get music not responding.

I had heard upgrading to a m2 MBA will make a big difference.

Thanks all,
Traci


> On Sep 7, 2023, at 10:26 AM, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in 
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
> 
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the 
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter 
> duration.
> 
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO. 
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
> 
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to get 
> to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
> 
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS. 
> I hope they fix it soon.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> 
> Mohamed E. Fayed 
> 
> 
>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>> 
>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared to 
>> Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously consider 
>> going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop. 
>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari is 
>> Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>> 
>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac 
>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a 
>> coin on the decision.
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>> 
>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot 
>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>> 
>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should 
>> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 
>> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>> 
>> What are your guises thoughts?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> From Traci's MBA20.
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
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>> 
>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
>>  
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>  
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>  
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>> .
> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[lenron brown]

I hate web Browsing on the mac. Most other things I am good with. I
use both platforms for different reasons, even having a 2023 MBP 14
with max chip. I still use my windows computers as my daily drivers. I
like my mac for vocr and logic, and a few other things. Some things
can just be slower on a mac  when it comes to page navagation and a
couple other things, I just would rather not deal with it.

On 9/7/23, Mohamed Fayed  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in
> performance is tremendous and you will notice it.
>
> For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the
> exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter
> duration.
>
> For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO.
> You may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.
>
> Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to
> get to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.
>
> The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS.
> I hope they fix it soon.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Mohamed E. Fayed
>
>
>> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>>
>> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared
>> to Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously
>> consider going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop.
>> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari
>> is Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
>>
>> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac
>> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a
>> coin on the decision.
>>
>> Dave Carlson
>> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>>
>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>>
>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>>
>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder,
>> should I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to
>> spend $900 on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>>
>> What are your guises thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> From Traci's MBA20.
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>> Visionaries list.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Mohamed Fayed]

Hi,

I’ve lately switched from 2016 15” MBP to 2023 M2Max 16””. The gain in 
performance is tremendous and you will notice it.

For issues related to “mail is not responding”, it occurs when you make the 
exact keystrokes, but Voiceover continues within a significantly shorter 
duration.

For web browsing, Safari nowadays is pretty bad. This is not related to VO. You 
may try Google Chrome or MS Edge instead.

Windows on Apple Silicon is significantly faster. If there is a chance to get 
to Apple Silicon device, and try it yourself, that would be great.

The issue that annoys me the most is VO stops talking. It is on Mac and iOS. I 
hope they fix it soon.

Hope that helps,

Mohamed E. Fayed 


> On 7 Sep 2023, at 8:01 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared to 
> Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously consider 
> going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop. 
> I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari is 
> Busy” message that cripples my productivity.
> 
> So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac 
> does not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a 
> coin on the decision.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Dave Carlson]

My biggest gripe with Mac OS and VO is web browsing. It’s awful compared to 
Windows with JAWS or NNVDA. It is the main reason I would seriously consider 
going back to Windows if/when it’s time to get a new laptop. 
I use DuckDuckGo as my browser now to get away from that annoying “Safari is 
Busy” message that cripples my productivity.

So I’m on the fence about switching back to Windows, but if VO on the Mac does 
not improve over time (and I doubt that it will) I might just flip a coin on 
the decision.

Dave Carlson
Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com



On Sep 7, 2023, at 9:23 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list about 
the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

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RE: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[josephlhodge]

I am normally not a Doom and gloom person, but my experience with the beta
has been very poor. Using Safari or Microsoft Edge if I'm moving by Headings
or controls voiceover often crashes and I cannot bring it back. So much with
web navigation is broken. Top it all off with my message this morning in
that if I'm just moving literally with the right and left arrow keys through
a page speech is stopping it's very awful. I'm hoping that maybe just all of
the voice over things haven't made it into the beta and there will be this
moment where clarity happens but sadly the Mac doesn't get the sort of
support it needs from the community and requesting that things get better. I
actually downgraded my computer back to the current OS and am going to let
folks report back to what they see. I did file tickets, so I am hopeful. To
be honest I wouldn't buy a Mac at this moment until I see the end result of
the final product. I love the Mac hardware nothing really rivals it, but for
us accessibility is just not trending in the right direction.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On
Behalf Of Traci Duncan
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 12:24 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list
about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot
of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should
I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900
on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

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<>

Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Bill Gallik]

Tracy et al,

I personally have not experienced many of the VoiceOver issues appearing on 
this list.  I’m using a Mac mini (2014) and recently did need to have the 
(mechanical) hard drive replaced with an SSD.  I figure after over 9 years and 
all that drive head movement a mechanical drive would be about due to give up 
the ghost.

I personally have no intentions of retreating back to a Windows machine.



- Bill from Northern Wisconsin
- “I think and think for months and years.”
- “Ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false.”
- “The hundredth time I am right.”
 Albert Einstein

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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Caitlyn Furness]

At this point I'll never go back to windows.  Even if the mac and VO has it's 
problems, windows has more and I hear all the time from friends and family how 
frustrating windows is to use...

Cait, with the ten year old macbook air still working fine


> On Sep 7, 2023, at 12:48 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> Has there ever been happy with VO. I find it works well for me. I use Windows 
> very little since I still find the Mac more accessible.
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2023, at 11:23, Traci Duncan  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
>> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
>> 
>> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot 
>> of you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
>> 
>> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
>> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should 
>> I get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 
>> on a MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
>> 
>> What are your guises thoughts?
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> From Traci's MBA20.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> Visionaries list.
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>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
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>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Maurice A. Mines]

Hi  I am  having  some  small  issues, but  no  showstoppers whin  it comes  to 
 Mac OS accessibility. That  being said. I am using  a  beta on  an Intel based 
Mac. I  am  switching  to  a  silicon based Mac next week. If  I  need Windows 
for  dictation, thin  I will  use a virtual Windows  installation, to  allow  
me  to  due  that.

Maurice Mines.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 16:23, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
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Re: Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Herbie Allen]

Has there ever been happy with VO. I find it works well for me. I use Windows 
very little since I still find the Mac more accessible.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 11:23, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list 
> about the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.
> 
> Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
> you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?
> 
> I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
> updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
> get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
> MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.
> 
> What are your guises thoughts?
> 
> Thank you,
> From Traci's MBA20.
> 
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Concerned about the future Mac accessibility

[Traci Duncan]

Hi all, it seems like we are having more than a few messages on this list about 
the disappointment in Mac’s VoiceOver performance.

Are quite a few of you thinking of switching back to windows? Or are a lot of 
you overall still happy with the VoiceOver experience?

I think I am mostly curious about this, because I have been talking about 
updating my MacBook Eyre. I guess part of me is beginning to wonder, should I 
get a Windows laptop instead? I would be very disappointed to spend $900 on a 
MacBook Air, and still have a lot of performance issues.

What are your guises thoughts?

Thank you,
>From Traci's MBA20.

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