Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
A blog would be great for intermediate users, and I agree hole heartedly, it's more accessible than a wiki. However, we have to think perhaps about getting to those who can't navigate the net just yet as well. Perhaps working with apple to supplement their docs as well, then after the less advanced stuff is there, using as part of the tutorial the blog to not only learn more, but how to learn navigation as well as an added bonus... Here's some researching tips:). On 12-Jun-09, at 11:39 PM, Justin Harford wrote: Good idea. We could write a blog like what they have for orca. That way members could read and edit each other's work and make improvements or suggest alternatives. On Jun 12, 2009, at 8:32 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Also, if more documentation is required, Really what would stop one or two of us from building a document ourselves and making it available? If we want to leave feature implimentation to apple, between most of us on the list proactive written documentation available and offered to apple to distribute might provide the much needed touch that some of the blind community may prefer from their own members. Just a thought. On 12-Jun-09, at 8:42 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: I totally agree. I think the VO quick start that exists in Leopard is enough, because it shows you how to navigate all kinds of controls, which in the end are the ones you find all over OS X and most applications. So what's wrong with it? Personally I found it very useful, along with the keyboard help feature. When I first started using a Mac, I could do pretty much everything after a couple of hours working on it. I mean I don't think more documentation would hurt, but I would rather let those people work on actual features than putting them to write documentation... On Jun 12, 2009, at 6:59 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think what is important is you learn how to navigate with VO and then learn the applications as would any other user regardless of their ability or disability. I may be recalling incorrectly since it has been years since I bothered reading the manual for Window-EYes, but I think generally it instructed me on how to use WE and not on how to use all the applications. Now it is possible because the keys required for WE possibly change some behavior of an app, they might have touched on the differences, but gee you know I couldn't tell you what impact the windows-based screen reader has on the windows experience. :) I understand some of what you are saying, but yet once you learn VO, you'll learn the apps very quickly. I started off when VO was really new, so I really had to read what info I could find and learn from there. You know it wasn't to bad and really hey when you think about it, a number of people have produced tutorials on how to use this or that screen reader and this or that application, sold them, and made money. You can do the same thing as well. Wait, maybe I should be doing that. :) On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Reiser wrote: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Hmm, let's see if i can formulate this so that it makes sence... I think that you have some valid points in what you're saying, however that info in the beginning about how to get help should, imho be optional, that is if it was there, you should be able to turn it on and off. I for one would be half crazy if i was to hear that info every time, even if i knew how to silence it with the ctrl key. However, for newbies, this info would be helpful. /Krister 12 jun 2009 kl. 04.40 skrev Mike Reiser: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I think what is important is you learn how to navigate with VO and then learn the applications as would any other user regardless of their ability or disability. I may be recalling incorrectly since it has been years since I bothered reading the manual for Window-EYes, but I think generally it instructed me on how to use WE and not on how to use all the applications. Now it is possible because the keys required for WE possibly change some behavior of an app, they might have touched on the differences, but gee you know I couldn't tell you what impact the windows-based screen reader has on the windows experience. :) I understand some of what you are saying, but yet once you learn VO, you'll learn the apps very quickly. I started off when VO was really new, so I really had to read what info I could find and learn from there. You know it wasn't to bad and really hey when you think about it, a number of people have produced tutorials on how to use this or that screen reader and this or that application, sold them, and made money. You can do the same thing as well. Wait, maybe I should be doing that. :) On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Reiser wrote: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I agree, the welcome dialog will have an option to show at startup or not, there could also be an option to show help message at startup or something. My hope is that these help instructions will be put into the welcome screen. Mike On Jun 12, 2009, at 5:08 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: Hmm, let's see if i can formulate this so that it makes sence... I think that you have some valid points in what you're saying, however that info in the beginning about how to get help should, imho be optional, that is if it was there, you should be able to turn it on and off. I for one would be half crazy if i was to hear that info every time, even if i knew how to silence it with the ctrl key. However, for newbies, this info would be helpful. /Krister 12 jun 2009 kl. 04.40 skrev Mike Reiser: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Also, if more documentation is required, Really what would stop one or two of us from building a document ourselves and making it available? If we want to leave feature implimentation to apple, between most of us on the list proactive written documentation available and offered to apple to distribute might provide the much needed touch that some of the blind community may prefer from their own members. Just a thought. On 12-Jun-09, at 8:42 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: I totally agree. I think the VO quick start that exists in Leopard is enough, because it shows you how to navigate all kinds of controls, which in the end are the ones you find all over OS X and most applications. So what's wrong with it? Personally I found it very useful, along with the keyboard help feature. When I first started using a Mac, I could do pretty much everything after a couple of hours working on it. I mean I don't think more documentation would hurt, but I would rather let those people work on actual features than putting them to write documentation... On Jun 12, 2009, at 6:59 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think what is important is you learn how to navigate with VO and then learn the applications as would any other user regardless of their ability or disability. I may be recalling incorrectly since it has been years since I bothered reading the manual for Window-EYes, but I think generally it instructed me on how to use WE and not on how to use all the applications. Now it is possible because the keys required for WE possibly change some behavior of an app, they might have touched on the differences, but gee you know I couldn't tell you what impact the windows-based screen reader has on the windows experience. :) I understand some of what you are saying, but yet once you learn VO, you'll learn the apps very quickly. I started off when VO was really new, so I really had to read what info I could find and learn from there. You know it wasn't to bad and really hey when you think about it, a number of people have produced tutorials on how to use this or that screen reader and this or that application, sold them, and made money. You can do the same thing as well. Wait, maybe I should be doing that. :) On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Reiser wrote: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Like I said I'm not sure what the right solution is. I think there should at least be a basic tutorial that covers the use of vo with the finder maybe and other things. Again I really don't know how this will be balanced or solved. Mike On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:42 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: I totally agree. I think the VO quick start that exists in Leopard is enough, because it shows you how to navigate all kinds of controls, which in the end are the ones you find all over OS X and most applications. So what's wrong with it? Personally I found it very useful, along with the keyboard help feature. When I first started using a Mac, I could do pretty much everything after a couple of hours working on it. I mean I don't think more documentation would hurt, but I would rather let those people work on actual features than putting them to write documentation... On Jun 12, 2009, at 6:59 AM, Scott Howell wrote: I think what is important is you learn how to navigate with VO and then learn the applications as would any other user regardless of their ability or disability. I may be recalling incorrectly since it has been years since I bothered reading the manual for Window-EYes, but I think generally it instructed me on how to use WE and not on how to use all the applications. Now it is possible because the keys required for WE possibly change some behavior of an app, they might have touched on the differences, but gee you know I couldn't tell you what impact the windows-based screen reader has on the windows experience. :) I understand some of what you are saying, but yet once you learn VO, you'll learn the apps very quickly. I started off when VO was really new, so I really had to read what info I could find and learn from there. You know it wasn't to bad and really hey when you think about it, a number of people have produced tutorials on how to use this or that screen reader and this or that application, sold them, and made money. You can do the same thing as well. Wait, maybe I should be doing that. :) On Jun 11, 2009, at 10:40 PM, Mike Reiser wrote: I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I was confused about the editing thing as well at first but am doing much better now I think. I still goof up sometimes but oh well. This guy obviously did not read the vo manual as I looked at it today and it's very detailed in going over the desktop orientation and all that. They don't describe how to quit apps and itunes isn't mentioned accept a little bit but otherwise it is very well written. I'm a bit concerned about Apple's documentation that comes with mac, and I think the tutorial should be more interactive in the sense that someone should demonstrate basic tasks while the person follows along. I feel they should cover basic tasks like using finder, serfing the web, sending email, word processing, and itunes, maybe one or two more things. They should also enclude the vo manual with mac and maybe give a short prompt when vo starts to press a key to read help and maybe brief instructions on how to read it. I'm really not sure if this would be too much info or not, however. They will have a welcome dialog in snowlepard, so this is a good step. Mike On Jun 11, 2009, at 4:59 PM, kaare dehard wrote: Interesting, so I'll explore my own journey with you. My first talking computer ironicly was an apple ii e. My second was a dos machine. Neither of these gave me much trouble. Windows was my next stop, and with no prejudgement I worked for a week before I got myself grounded. Windows 95 98 and xp as well. I then moved on to voiceover for both financial and technical reasons. It took only 2 or 3 days to get my feet, but I couldn't tell you if it was easier to learn, or if my difficulties with jaws and window-eyes were merely experience not understanding differences between cli and gui. Editing with the mac gave me more problems than with windows but that was before someone explained the differences in how the cursors were handled. This is not a reporting error, as sugestive in the article but a different method of cursor tracking and usage. If this fellow writing Was truly interested in understanding the differences and giving the program a fair crack, it would have been just as easy for him to take advantage of the good help available on this list:). On 11-Jun-09, at 9:20 AM, Dean Wilcox wrote: When you first started to use Windows were you new to computers? I mean you didn't use Lunux or an older flavour of Mac before hand? I'm asking as I wonder if you found the Mac quicker to learn because you had a better grasp of computers in general when you started with the Mac, something you may not have had when you started to use Windows. I'm not suggesting the Mac isn't easier to learn but I may have a valid point also. At 01:04 11/06/2009, you wrote: You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.50/2150 - Release Date: 06/02/09 06:47:00 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Hi, How many legs did your Windows conputer come with in the firstplace. *Alex checks and none of his computers have legs* See, it is easier to stop them running away this way, ... :). Anyways, I have loved OS X since 2005, and would not use my Windows VM probably ever except for miner website testing at work, but even us don't support JAWS, etc. at owrk. Regards, Alex, On 10-Jun-09, at 12:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the old. I first heard rumblings that the Mac was accessable in late 2007.I was 30 then and am 32 now, got my Mac when I was 31. So not sure where I fit, young or old or whatever... My story was this. My windows computer was on it's last legs and we knew that I had to get a new one. At first we thought about getting a low cost windows laptop. Then they came out with vista. My partner Larry at first didn't want to drop so much money all at once on a computer. But I sat down and did a lot of research. Listened to screenless switchers, joined this list, listened to everything ACB radio had to say found other podcasts and after that I priced out how much would it be to get a laptop with windows and a copy of JAWS. Then I priced out the ongoing costs, upgrades to the OS and JAWS and other things. I gathered everything I learned and presented it to Larry. I think after all was said and done that the Mac, while expensive at first more or less payed for it's self in the money I saved as it had a built in screen access and screen enlargement, plus the most I'd think of paying for os/A/T upgrades with the mac at tops would be 150 bucks compaired to havint to spend 200 a year ontop of the nearly 1000 starting price for a windows screen reader. Just after we took the choice to get the Mac I got a chance to try vista as I barrowed my stepdaughter's new vista computer. I tried timed demos of JAWS and W.E. and the free screen readers and was so grumpy with the whole thing. Larry got to see first hand what a pain in the neck it all was and I even got him to listen to some of the mac demos. He said we got the mac because it has what I need and seems to be a better computer for me. I haven't crashed it yet and aside from a few structure problems with the macbook, like little shards of it coming apart where the lid shuts and the recent shorting out of the option key I have had no trouble with it. I think people can take the choice if they find themselves where I was. In need of a computer and free and open to anything. I'm a stay at home mom so don't have to worry about my mac interfacing with other computers I like my choice and am glad I took the time to learn all I could rather than just following a mass of people one way or the other. Jenny blueskyes9112...@gmail.com Olathe, Ks USA On 6/10/09, Mark Baxter markbaxte...@gmail.com wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Oh, so that's what it is...! On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Michael Reiser wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
This happens everywhere. The ONCE in Spain, which is the equivalent of the NFB, does exactly the same. On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:04 AM, Mark Baxter wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
And add to this what the vendors tell you. I don't know how it is in Spain or the States or elsewhere, but here in Sweden, people tend to rely very heavily on what vendors are saying, and if they say that the Mac is trying to do something accessible but isn't ready yet, then true or not, people will believe it, which is why i desperately try to talk AT vendors here to at least talk to me and let me demo that things actually work. So far with little luck. /Krister 10 jun 2009 kl. 09.42 skrev Ignasi Cambra: The problem is that articles like this make people not want to leave Windows for the Mac. What I'm saying is that after reading this article you end with the sensation that yes, Apple is trying to make the Mac accessible and all, but it's not quite ready yet. And that is, in my opinion, a false statement. On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Michael Reiser wrote: I agree Mike, they seemed to come at it with an expectation that it would behave like it does in Windows. Unfortunately, most people have that expectation. I do think that Apple should improve the documentation and talk about mac commands and basics of using mac and vo. They should also up front say how vo should not be expected to be like Windows. I really think that for to long blind users have been spoon fed by the screen readers on Windows and they no longer do what there designed to do in allot of cases. With scripts and all that, this incourages windows devs not to develope for access. Thanks, Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille MonitorJune 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus Wes-on-the-Mac.gifFrom the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command(CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation of VoiceOver's usability, I identified several important tasks and uses for the Macintosh. These included sending and receiving email; browsing the Web; downloading files; and file management, including moving and deleting files. I also wanted to know whether a user having difficulties could get help from the Mac OS X
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
What we have is an opportunity to point out the few negatives that matter to apple such as mixing the commandsets together from osx and vo, real good stuff to look at, but the rest of it is pretty much a statement of praising windows os and the way that those screen readers handle things. That's nice if you have a tech department to help you get things back up on the ever too rare occasion when windows crashes and needs a format:) However the poor journalism and the lack of objectivity in this report lower the respect level for both the individual writing it and the publication responsible for permitting such tripe to be featured within it's pages. On 10-Jun-09, at 1:54 AM, Michael Reiser wrote: I agree with everything said. Mac popularity has grown despite access world which buy the way did write a very nice review of lepard last September. I don't think blind people will just go buy that as a facter. I really think the younger blind crowd will embrace mac more and the older ones will follow after. As for me I love my mac and will not go back to windows. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:08 PM, James Dietz wrote: Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame war, but I am curious to know if what people have said about blindness organizations and blind-specific tech and other companies is really true. In a perfect world they'd just want what would be best for the blind user, and I don't see how anyone could argue with mainstream screenreading action. If it's not a quality product or hasn't matured much (like Microsoft's narrator) then a complaint is justified. On 6/9/09, Michael Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I definitely agree. I think enough blind people will continue to look at mac to make it still a viable option. MikeOn Jun 10, 2009, at 1:04 AM, Mark Baxter wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
That's great. Let me just say I did not intend any offense with my comment on the older/younger thing. My apologeez if any offense was taken. Mike On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the old. I first heard rumblings that the Mac was accessable in late 2007.I was 30 then and am 32 now, got my Mac when I was 31. So not sure where I fit, young or old or whatever... My story was this. My windows computer was on it's last legs and we knew that I had to get a new one. At first we thought about getting a low cost windows laptop. Then they came out with vista. My partner Larry at first didn't want to drop so much money all at once on a computer. But I sat down and did a lot of research. Listened to screenless switchers, joined this list, listened to everything ACB radio had to say found other podcasts and after that I priced out how much would it be to get a laptop with windows and a copy of JAWS. Then I priced out the ongoing costs, upgrades to the OS and JAWS and other things. I gathered everything I learned and presented it to Larry. I think after all was said and done that the Mac, while expensive at first more or less payed for it's self in the money I saved as it had a built in screen access and screen enlargement, plus the most I'd think of paying for os/A/T upgrades with the mac at tops would be 150 bucks compaired to havint to spend 200 a year ontop of the nearly 1000 starting price for a windows screen reader. Just after we took the choice to get the Mac I got a chance to try vista as I barrowed my stepdaughter's new vista computer. I tried timed demos of JAWS and W.E. and the free screen readers and was so grumpy with the whole thing. Larry got to see first hand what a pain in the neck it all was and I even got him to listen to some of the mac demos. He said we got the mac because it has what I need and seems to be a better computer for me. I haven't crashed it yet and aside from a few structure problems with the macbook, like little shards of it coming apart where the lid shuts and the recent shorting out of the option key I have had no trouble with it. I think people can take the choice if they find themselves where I was. In need of a computer and free and open to anything. I'm a stay at home mom so don't have to worry about my mac interfacing with other computers I like my choice and am glad I took the time to learn all I could rather than just following a mass of people one way or the other. Jenny blueskyes9112...@gmail.com Olathe, Ks USA On 6/10/09, Mark Baxter markbaxte...@gmail.com wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
That's just my interpritation on it, I have no prough either way but that's how it feels. Mike On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:46 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: Oh, so that's what it is...! On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:03 PM, Michael Reiser wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
We could also suggest that apple put the basic keyboard commands and basics on using the mac in the tutorial. Would this be sent to Apple accessibility? Mike On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:08 AM, kaare dehard wrote: What we have is an opportunity to point out the few negatives that matter to apple such as mixing the commandsets together from osx and vo, real good stuff to look at, but the rest of it is pretty much a statement of praising windows os and the way that those screen readers handle things. That's nice if you have a tech department to help you get things back up on the ever too rare occasion when windows crashes and needs a format:) However the poor journalism and the lack of objectivity in this report lower the respect level for both the individual writing it and the publication responsible for permitting such tripe to be featured within it's pages. On 10-Jun-09, at 1:54 AM, Michael Reiser wrote: I agree with everything said. Mac popularity has grown despite access world which buy the way did write a very nice review of lepard last September. I don't think blind people will just go buy that as a facter. I really think the younger blind crowd will embrace mac more and the older ones will follow after. As for me I love my mac and will not go back to windows. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:08 PM, James Dietz wrote: Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame war, but I am curious to know if what people have said about blindness organizations and blind-specific tech and other companies is really true. In a perfect world they'd just want what would be best for the blind user, and I don't see how anyone could argue with mainstream screenreading action. If it's not a quality product or hasn't matured much (like Microsoft's narrator) then a complaint is justified. On 6/9/09, Michael Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation of VoiceOver's usability, I identified several important tasks and uses for the Macintosh. These included sending and receiving email; browsing the Web; downloading files; and file management, including moving and deleting files. I also wanted to know whether a user having difficulties could get help from the Mac OS X help utility. Because creating and editing documents is a central reason to use a computer, I evaluated the TextEdit word processing application. In this article these tasks will be presented in order of popularity. People are most likely to use their computers for text editing, email management, browsing the Web, and file management. These tasks will be described in this article, along with our overall opinions of the Mac experience with VoiceOver. For the most part blind computer users take advantage of the Windows operating system for their computing needs, so they are accustomed to the way that operating system delivers prompts, its keystrokes, and its other characteristics. They are also accustomed to the ways in which Windows-based screen-access software delivers information. Because Windows is so entrenched in the blindness community, users need a way to learn a new operating system. The manual that Apple has produced, VoiceOver Getting Started,” does not provide this comprehensive introduction. Though it lays out the commands for using VoiceOver, it does not explain how those commands can be used in conjunction with OS X to make it friendlier. Email account review and creation get no explanation of layout or use. It would have been better to have a document that combines VoiceOver commands with those of OS X so as to promote the use of the operating system first, with VoiceOver acting as its overlay. As an example, many Windows-based screen- access software manuals go into limited detail about Windows and the way it works with the screen-access software, especially in setting Windows and application-specific preferences to make the screen-access software work better with the operating system or the application. This is not done in the VoiceOver manual. In Safari, for example, you can set up the browser so the Tab key will move you between elements. This is not the default setting and is not outlined anywhere in the VoiceOver documentation. In addition, the instructions
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Well I got my mac in March of this year because I don't want to mess with Windows seven. I'm 47 in October. Does that mean I'm young? :) On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the old. I first heard rumblings that the Mac was accessable in late 2007.I was 30 then and am 32 now, got my Mac when I was 31. So not sure where I fit, young or old or whatever... My story was this. My windows computer was on it's last legs and we knew that I had to get a new one. At first we thought about getting a low cost windows laptop. Then they came out with vista. My partner Larry at first didn't want to drop so much money all at once on a computer. But I sat down and did a lot of research. Listened to screenless switchers, joined this list, listened to everything ACB radio had to say found other podcasts and after that I priced out how much would it be to get a laptop with windows and a copy of JAWS. Then I priced out the ongoing costs, upgrades to the OS and JAWS and other things. I gathered everything I learned and presented it to Larry. I think after all was said and done that the Mac, while expensive at first more or less payed for it's self in the money I saved as it had a built in screen access and screen enlargement, plus the most I'd think of paying for os/A/T upgrades with the mac at tops would be 150 bucks compaired to havint to spend 200 a year ontop of the nearly 1000 starting price for a windows screen reader. Just after we took the choice to get the Mac I got a chance to try vista as I barrowed my stepdaughter's new vista computer. I tried timed demos of JAWS and W.E. and the free screen readers and was so grumpy with the whole thing. Larry got to see first hand what a pain in the neck it all was and I even got him to listen to some of the mac demos. He said we got the mac because it has what I need and seems to be a better computer for me. I haven't crashed it yet and aside from a few structure problems with the macbook, like little shards of it coming apart where the lid shuts and the recent shorting out of the option key I have had no trouble with it. I think people can take the choice if they find themselves where I was. In need of a computer and free and open to anything. I'm a stay at home mom so don't have to worry about my mac interfacing with other computers I like my choice and am glad I took the time to learn all I could rather than just following a mass of people one way or the other. Jenny blueskyes9112...@gmail.com Olathe, Ks USA On 6/10/09, Mark Baxter markbaxte...@gmail.com wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Hello Peggy and all: Then that makes me just one of those darn meddling kids at 40 (grin).. Given the writing of the article in the Braille Monitor it looks like I will need to renew my annual membership in S.O.S. (stamp out stupidity). Thought I could save the 20 bucks this year. Oh well, it is a good cause. 90% of the proceeds go to the Itunes store (wink). On Jun 10, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Peggy Fleischer wrote: Well I got my mac in March of this year because I don't want to mess with Windows seven. I'm 47 in October. Does that mean I'm young? :) On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the old. I first heard rumblings that the Mac was accessable in late 2007.I was 30 then and am 32 now, got my Mac when I was 31. So not sure where I fit, young or old or whatever... My story was this. My windows computer was on it's last legs and we knew that I had to get a new one. At first we thought about getting a low cost windows laptop. Then they came out with vista. My partner Larry at first didn't want to drop so much money all at once on a computer. But I sat down and did a lot of research. Listened to screenless switchers, joined this list, listened to everything ACB radio had to say found other podcasts and after that I priced out how much would it be to get a laptop with windows and a copy of JAWS. Then I priced out the ongoing costs, upgrades to the OS and JAWS and other things. I gathered everything I learned and presented it to Larry. I think after all was said and done that the Mac, while expensive at first more or less payed for it's self in the money I saved as it had a built in screen access and screen enlargement, plus the most I'd think of paying for os/A/T upgrades with the mac at tops would be 150 bucks compaired to havint to spend 200 a year ontop of the nearly 1000 starting price for a windows screen reader. Just after we took the choice to get the Mac I got a chance to try vista as I barrowed my stepdaughter's new vista computer. I tried timed demos of JAWS and W.E. and the free screen readers and was so grumpy with the whole thing. Larry got to see first hand what a pain in the neck it all was and I even got him to listen to some of the mac demos. He said we got the mac because it has what I need and seems to be a better computer for me. I haven't crashed it yet and aside from a few structure problems with the macbook, like little shards of it coming apart where the lid shuts and the recent shorting out of the option key I have had no trouble with it. I think people can take the choice if they find themselves where I was. In need of a computer and free and open to anything. I'm a stay at home mom so don't have to worry about my mac interfacing with other computers I like my choice and am glad I took the time to learn all I could rather than just following a mass of people one way or the other. Jenny blueskyes9112...@gmail.com Olathe, Ks USA On 6/10/09, Mark Baxter markbaxte...@gmail.com wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ Take good care and I wish you enough. Love Me --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
hi I am a proud nfb member if this is know longer a mac voiceover list and a nfb bashing list I will lev the list but I don't wunt to due thiat this must stop and get back to voiceover. On Jun 10, 2009, at 10:03 AM, patrickneazer wrote: Hello Peggy and all: Then that makes me just one of those darn meddling kids at 40 (grin).. Given the writing of the article in the Braille Monitor it looks like I will need to renew my annual membership in S.O.S. (stamp out stupidity). Thought I could save the 20 bucks this year. Oh well, it is a good cause. 90% of the proceeds go to the Itunes store (wink). On Jun 10, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Peggy Fleischer wrote: Well I got my mac in March of this year because I don't want to mess with Windows seven. I'm 47 in October. Does that mean I'm young? :) On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kennedy wrote: I don't know who would be counted in the young group and who in the old. I first heard rumblings that the Mac was accessable in late 2007.I was 30 then and am 32 now, got my Mac when I was 31. So not sure where I fit, young or old or whatever... My story was this. My windows computer was on it's last legs and we knew that I had to get a new one. At first we thought about getting a low cost windows laptop. Then they came out with vista. My partner Larry at first didn't want to drop so much money all at once on a computer. But I sat down and did a lot of research. Listened to screenless switchers, joined this list, listened to everything ACB radio had to say found other podcasts and after that I priced out how much would it be to get a laptop with windows and a copy of JAWS. Then I priced out the ongoing costs, upgrades to the OS and JAWS and other things. I gathered everything I learned and presented it to Larry. I think after all was said and done that the Mac, while expensive at first more or less payed for it's self in the money I saved as it had a built in screen access and screen enlargement, plus the most I'd think of paying for os/A/T upgrades with the mac at tops would be 150 bucks compaired to havint to spend 200 a year ontop of the nearly 1000 starting price for a windows screen reader. Just after we took the choice to get the Mac I got a chance to try vista as I barrowed my stepdaughter's new vista computer. I tried timed demos of JAWS and W.E. and the free screen readers and was so grumpy with the whole thing. Larry got to see first hand what a pain in the neck it all was and I even got him to listen to some of the mac demos. He said we got the mac because it has what I need and seems to be a better computer for me. I haven't crashed it yet and aside from a few structure problems with the macbook, like little shards of it coming apart where the lid shuts and the recent shorting out of the option key I have had no trouble with it. I think people can take the choice if they find themselves where I was. In need of a computer and free and open to anything. I'm a stay at home mom so don't have to worry about my mac interfacing with other computers I like my choice and am glad I took the time to learn all I could rather than just following a mass of people one way or the other. Jenny blueskyes9112...@gmail.com Olathe, Ks USA On 6/10/09, Mark Baxter markbaxte...@gmail.com wrote: This is typical NFB. Prey on an already oppressed popularion with scare tactics about what *COULD* go wrong and how helpless they'd be unless trhey do things the NFB way. It's why I have very little to do with organized groups of blind people. Don't feel bad; I also scoff at organized religion in favor of individual spirituality, and hate Christmas because of shopping mobs and humans in packs. Don't beieve what the NFB tells you; they're just anothe organization with another marketing angle. Mark BurningHawk Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com My home page: http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ Take good care and I wish you enough. Love Me --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Hi Maurice, I, too, am a proud (and active) NFB member. That doesn't negate that this article was not a responsible or accurate portrayal. Do I expect every VO review to be full of nothing but glowing praise? Certainly not, but I do expect it to at least be accurate and written by someone who gave the product a fair shake, not from someone who clearly had expectations that it would be the same as something with which he was already familiar and was disappointed that it wasn't. I believe I would very much like to write a rebuttal and submit it to the Monitor. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Now There is the key word. Objectivity! When I read the article, I was trying to think of a way of best describing my reaction. A lack of objectivity hits it on the head. Thank you, Dave. Let's face it, folks. The major blind organizations, as much as denied and some find it uncomfortable to talk about in public, all have special interests when it comes to Windows. Windows related companies are their bread and butter, so it stands to reason that there will be a bias present. As many have pointed out, the major mistake taken right off the bat was trying to compare the Mac experience to JAWS or any Windows screen reader experience. If anything, this, to me, seems like a nice, back door way of trying to scare off the average blind user who has become so tied to how Windows screen readers work. I also felt that the cons far outweighed the pros in how this article was presented. Granted that the author does point out a weakness in documentation and such, but I think there was a goal of blurring or distorting the Mac experience compared to Windows. Frankly, I'm not at all surprised by this based on the fact this was in an organization's journal. Take Care John Panarese On Jun 10, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Dave Wright wrote: I believe we all agree that this article is rather slanted due to the user's familiarity with windows. I'd like to see a person write this same article with their previous knoledge being that of linux based screenreaders. All that to say that objectivity didn't seem to be taken in to consideration. Best Regards: Dave Wright Work Phone: 651-636-5184 X803 Email: dwri...@gmail.com WebPage: http://www.knfbreader.com - Original Message - From: Chris Blouch To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:52 PM Subject: Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor One little nit from the article is they mention that you can go up to any osx 10.5 box to use VO. Really you can do VO on 10.4 as well. You don't have to have only the latest OSX to use VO. That should have been made more clear in the article. CB James Dietz wrote: Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame war, but I am curious to know if what people have said about blindness organizations and blind-specific tech and other companies is really true. In a perfect world they'd just want what would be best for the blind user, and I don't see how anyone could argue with mainstream screenreading action. If it's not a quality product or hasn't matured much (like Microsoft's narrator) then a complaint is justified. On 6/9/09, Michael Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Please do that. At least you seem to have the patience to do it. I wouldn't bother... On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:34 PM, Buddy Brannan wrote: Hi Maurice, I, too, am a proud (and active) NFB member. That doesn't negate that this article was not a responsible or accurate portrayal. Do I expect every VO review to be full of nothing but glowing praise? Certainly not, but I do expect it to at least be accurate and written by someone who gave the product a fair shake, not from someone who clearly had expectations that it would be the same as something with which he was already familiar and was disappointed that it wasn't. I believe I would very much like to write a rebuttal and submit it to the Monitor. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Of course this is just my opinion, but I like how commands are set for web browsing with VO. I never had trouble remembering them, or in any case I don't find them any harder than the ones for JAWS, NVDA or others. On Jun 10, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Ryan Mann wrote: It's true that commands have to be learned for every program, but for web browsing, they are a little more obvious with programs such as System Access. h and shift+h is real easy to remember for moving through headings, e and shift e for moving between edit boxes. I use my mac for things such as burning CD's, listening to music and checking email, but I like System Access on Windows for web browsing. I will be excited to try web browsing on Snow Lepard though. On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
The only part I disagree with is that Apple has not settled for the position of fancy home computer or whatever. In fact we use Macs extensively where I work and I'm in the process of making the switch at work as I had done years ago at home. Apple takes all segments of the market seriously, but remember GW Micro and FS has third-party trainers and anyone can enter that game for Mac users. So, there really is no strong argument here in as far as Mac vs PC in the business world. It really comes down to what works for the user in the environment. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Jenny, you pup at 32. All good points for a whipper-snapper. :) On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Jenny Kenn --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
You know what was so funny to me is I have been using the Mac since 2005 and quite honestly there was a learning curve, but it took me considerably less time to get up to speed on the Mac than it did for me to master Windows and Window-Eyes. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the experience of the Mac and VoiceOver are so closely related, where the experience of the windows environement and the screen reader are not going to be the same. I guess the best way to say it is the screen reader does present things a little different than what a sighted user may experience and VO more closely represents the experience a sighted user gets. Hmmm, hope that made sense. :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Buddy, you should and I will help if you need it. This is one of those times when you need to say, set aside what you know about windows because they were clearly expecting it to be like windows, and when they found it wasn't, then it's a bad thing in their view and a bad thing. On Jun 10, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote: Hi Maurice, I, too, am a proud (and active) NFB member. That doesn't negate that this article was not a responsible or accurate portrayal. Do I expect every VO review to be full of nothing but glowing praise? Certainly not, but I do expect it to at least be accurate and written by someone who gave the product a fair shake, not from someone who clearly had expectations that it would be the same as something with which he was already familiar and was disappointed that it wasn't. I believe I would very much like to write a rebuttal and submit it to the Monitor. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation of VoiceOver's usability, I identified several important tasks and uses for the Macintosh. These included sending and receiving email; browsing the Web; downloading files; and file management, including moving and deleting files. I also wanted to know whether
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame war, but I am curious to know if what people have said about blindness organizations and blind-specific tech and other companies is really true. In a perfect world they'd just want what would be best for the blind user, and I don't see how anyone could argue with mainstream screenreading action. If it's not a quality product or hasn't matured much (like Microsoft's narrator) then a complaint is justified. On 6/9/09, Michael Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I agree. You may use more keystrokes on a mac, but a sighted user is going to also need to scroll the screen etc. It seems like when they did this review, if it didn't do things the way a windows screen reader does, then it's unfortunate. Even if many blind users have used windows, so what. Just because something is the most popular, doesn't mean it's the best or the only way to do something. On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:37 PM, Michael Reiser wrote: I agree Mike, they seemed to come at it with an expectation that it would behave like it does in Windows. Unfortunately, most people have that expectation. I do think that Apple should improve the documentation and talk about mac commands and basics of using mac and vo. They should also up front say how vo should not be expected to be like Windows. I really think that for to long blind users have been spoon fed by the screen readers on Windows and they no longer do what there designed to do in allot of cases. With scripts and all that, this incourages windows devs not to develope for access. Thanks, Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 8:41 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille MonitorJune 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus Wes-on-the-Mac.gifFrom the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command(CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation of VoiceOver's usability, I identified several important tasks and uses for the Macintosh. These included sending and receiving email; browsing the Web; downloading files; and file management, including moving and deleting files. I also wanted to know whether a user having difficulties could get help from the Mac OS X help utility. Because creating and editing documents is a central reason to use a computer, I evaluated the TextEdit word processing application. In this article these tasks will be presented in order of popularity. People are most likely to use their computers for text editing, email management, browsing the Web, and file management. These tasks will be described in this article, along with our overall opinions
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people have ever had on Apple products. But how good is it? How efficient is the speech? Does the blind user have access to every computer function? International Braille and Technology Center Access Technology Specialist Wesley Majerus set out to put the Mac and VoiceOver through their paces. Here is his report: Apple's Macintosh computer is one of the only systems to have integrated, full-function screen-access software. Because it is a part of the operating system, it is usable out of the box and on the showroom floor. You can simply walk up to any Macintosh computer running OS 10.5 Leopard and press Command (CMD)+F5 to try out the screen-access software. In this article I outline some of my impressions of VoiceOver after the weeklong evaluation I recently undertook. Throughout this document reference will be made to VO keys or to pressing VO with other keys. These references are to the VoiceOver keys, which are CTRL+Option and are held down in conjunction with other keyboard keys to perform tasks specific to the VoiceOver screen-access software. As I undertook the evaluation of VoiceOver's usability, I identified several important tasks and uses for the Macintosh. These included sending and receiving email; browsing the Web; downloading files; and file management, including moving and deleting files. I also wanted to know whether a user having difficulties could get help from the Mac OS X help utility. Because creating and editing documents is a central reason to use a computer, I evaluated the TextEdit word processing application. In this article these tasks will be presented in order of popularity. People are most likely to use their computers for text editing, email management, browsing the Web, and file management. These tasks will be described in this article, along with our overall opinions of the Mac experience with VoiceOver. For the most part blind computer users take advantage of the Windows operating system for their computing needs, so they are accustomed to the way that operating system delivers prompts, its keystrokes, and its other characteristics. They are also accustomed to the ways in which Windows-based screen-access software delivers information. Because Windows is so entrenched in the blindness community, users need a way to learn a new operating system. The manual that Apple has produced, VoiceOver Getting Started,” does not provide this comprehensive introduction. Though it lays out the commands for using VoiceOver, it does not explain how those commands can be used in conjunction with OS X to make it friendlier. Email account review and creation get no explanation of layout or use. It would have been
Re: mac voiceover in braille monitor
I agree with everything said. Mac popularity has grown despite access world which buy the way did write a very nice review of lepard last September. I don't think blind people will just go buy that as a facter. I really think the younger blind crowd will embrace mac more and the older ones will follow after. As for me I love my mac and will not go back to windows. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:08 PM, James Dietz wrote: Really? I know FS is one of the key sponsers of the convention, but does that really mean they have an agenda? I can almost believe it, as like I said it really wasn't so much a debate of pros and cons as it was a list of cons. I don't want to help escolate this into a flame war, but I am curious to know if what people have said about blindness organizations and blind-specific tech and other companies is really true. In a perfect world they'd just want what would be best for the blind user, and I don't see how anyone could argue with mainstream screenreading action. If it's not a quality product or hasn't matured much (like Microsoft's narrator) then a complaint is justified. On 6/9/09, Michael Reiser blindgu...@gmail.com wrote: They have FS and other companies in there pockets, so they have to discredit someone else. Mike On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:54 PM, James Dietz wrote: Nearly everything they point out is negative. It's almost as if they're deliberately skipping over what the screenreader does well so that they can get right to the bad stuff. My favorite has to be the section where they discuss using voiceover with the internet - while there are some legitimate problems with group mode and ajax pages (which I would've agreed with if they'd been mentioned), it does present info in a logical form to me anyway. That's subjective, but they they go on to say that commands to move between different elements of a page were not readily apparent and had to be learned. Commands need to be learned for every program, including JAWS and Window-Eyes. Yeesh! They also mentioned the fact that vo+arrowing through elements was tedius. This is tricky, but that's pretty much how JFW handles it - with the exception that you can pgdn through a page to skip bigger chunks. They didn't mention that, so not sure if they're being entirely fair. The article raised some good points - training would help explain things like the infamous double-sided cursor (which they didn't quite realize existed - for the record VO was not mis-speaking characters) and use of the mac itself in combination with voiceover. Once Apple can sell a mac to blind users with some vo-specific training, they might be able to tap into the market a little better. Of course it's doubtful they will actually do this - blind services buy computers and software for working blind people. That means Microsoft Windows and JAWS (or window-eyes I guess) because that's what workplaces use. Apple seems to have accepted and embraced it's market position as the cool slick do-it-all magic box for home users. On 6/9/09, Mike Arrigo n0...@charter.net wrote: The biggest problem with this article I think is that they are comparing voice over too much to windows screen readers. While I like to compare some things about the mac to elements in windows such as the finder to explorer, and the doc to the windows task bar and quick launch, they did this review with way too much expectation for voice over and the mac to behave like windows. - Original Message - From: Michael Reiser To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:40 PM Subject: mac voiceover in braille monitor Just thought I'd share this with everyone. The nfb featured vo in the june 2009 issue of the braille monitor. While I agree with some of the concerns here, I disaggree with quite a few especially that vo should just read everything automatically. Ironic that many of the concerns put forth will be addressed in snow lepard. Would love toÎ hear everyone else's take on this. I'll paste the article here for easy reading. Braille Monitor June 2009 (back) (contents) (next) Report on the Ease of Access of the Apple OS 10.5 Leopard Environment with VoiceOver by Wesley Majerus From the Editor: Almost as long as computers have dominated the lives of many Americans, some people have praised the Apple products with a fervor verging on the religious. The operating system has always been more visually intuitive than that of the PC, and manipulating graphics on Apple products is apparently both easy and satisfying. But since the Apple IIe in the early days, which seems to have incorporated some speech access, Apple products have been remarkably inaccessible to blind users. Now for the first time the Apple Macintosh operating system has been equipped with VoiceOver, which provides more speech access than blind people
