Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Mike Brasch]

On 21 Feb 2018, at 17:42, Ron Britton wrote:

I can see the advantages to it.  TBH, my current approach to email is 
not serving me well.  I frequently get overwhelmed by all of the stuff 
I get in a day.  I'd love to try an inbox zero approach, but my inbox 
has thousands of old emails that are too important to toss but not 
important enough to take the time to save out to the hard drive (lots 
of conversations with people, etc.).


I use a helper smart folder (which I never use to view mails) just to 
move mails >180 days to the archive folder (on the IMAP):



Mailboxes
   INBOX
   Send
Conditions
 180 
Rules



Additionally I have set my Archive folder to generate subfolders by Date 
> Year.


Maybe this is an option for you?


If you want do give IMAP another try, consider to let the IMAP do all 
static filtering for you as all your clients will benefit from it. The 
180-day-to-archive-move is currently for me the only exception as my 
IMAP has no (easy) way to do it for me. Maybe I'll try it via SIEVE if I 
can find spare time.


--
best regards
Mike
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Robert Brenstein]

On 21 Feb 2018, at 17:42, Ron Britton wrote:

Yes, when I switched to IMAP (when I bought my first iPhone and 
wanted
to access email from it) I had some "mental issues" with this but 
I've

changed my mind.


I can see the advantages to it.  TBH, my current approach to email is 
not
serving me well.  I frequently get overwhelmed by all of the stuff I 
get in a
day.  I'd love to try an inbox zero approach, but my inbox has 
thousands of
old emails that are too important to toss but not important enough to 
take the
time to save out to the hard drive (lots of conversations with people, 
etc.).


I am using what can be called pseudo inbox-zero approach. All incoming 
mails are in INBOX except those that are archived, trashed, or else, of 
course. I have a smart mailbox for each mailing list (actually, more 
active mailing lists have their own email address to make things even 
simpler), family, clients, that is anything that is coming in more or 
less regularly and is recognizable. Then I have a smart mailbox that I 
call “unsorted” which contains only those INBOX messages that are in 
none of my targeted smart mailboxes. With my set up, I get like up to 
tops 20 emails in that mailbox per day and it is empty by the end of the 
day. Not a true zero-inbox but the same functionality.


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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Ron Britton]

Jan Erik Moström wrote:
> Yes, when I switched to IMAP (when I bought my first iPhone and wanted
> to access email from it) I had some "mental issues" with this but I've
> changed my mind.

I can see the advantages to it.  TBH, my current approach to email is not
serving me well.  I frequently get overwhelmed by all of the stuff I get in a
day.  I'd love to try an inbox zero approach, but my inbox has thousands of
old emails that are too important to toss but not important enough to take the
time to save out to the hard drive (lots of conversations with people, etc.).

>> Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed archiving
>> emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.
>
> My personal take on this: don't bother (if you have the disk space),
> none of the email archiving solutions I've seen does a really good job.
> It's way easier to keep them all on the server.

Hmmm . . . It does sound like there are some advantages to that.  A lot of it
might simply be forcing my brain to accept change.  I had to use GMail on my
last job and never liked it.  A local program like MM that talks to the IMAP
server for me might be workable.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Jan Erik Moström]

On 21 Feb 2018, at 15:38, John Cooper wrote:

The biggest adjustment is not to worry about emptying the IN mailbox 
but establish a set of smart mailboxes (and tags) to create a 
workflow similar to what you had before. Takes a bit effort but it is 
surely possible.



Smart mailboxes work equally well whether you keep your messages in a 
single mailbox or file them away as usual. I expect always to continue 
using a small range of IMAP mailboxes so I can easily find my most 
important messages when I use webmail, my phone, or someone else's 
computer: a mailbox for paperless tickets, for example.


I would suggest keeping the inbox(es) as clean as possible. I move all 
mailing list emails etc into mailboxes especially for this and then use 
smart mailboxes for more fine grained control. And as John writes, there 
is no good cross-platform solution for viewing smart mailboxes on your 
phone, etc. So for this I keep four mailboxes "DoNow", "Fix", 
"Reference", "ReadLater" and have a few shortcuts that quickly let me 
move messages to/from these mailboxes. This way I can easily find them 
on my phone etc. (My goal is to keep these as empty as possible).


= jem
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[John Cooper]

Robert Brenstein wrote (at 4:35 on 21 Feb 2018):

The biggest adjustment is not to worry about emptying the IN mailbox 
but establish a set of smart mailboxes (and tags) to create a workflow 
similar to what you had before. Takes a bit effort but it is surely 
possible.


Smart mailboxes work equally well whether you keep your messages in a 
single mailbox or file them away as usual. I expect always to continue 
using a small range of IMAP mailboxes so I can easily find my most 
important messages when I use webmail, my phone, or someone else's 
computer: a mailbox for paperless tickets, for example.


I'm an inbox-zero type of guy and my inbox contains only personal 
conversations in progress and urgent to-do items. Longer-term to-do 
items go in a mailbox called "Review." Shipment notifications go into 
their own folder to be deleted when the package arrives: this tells me 
when a shipment has gone astray. You'll find your own system.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Jan Erik Moström]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 21:08, Ron Britton wrote:

I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one 
way for 25

years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).


:D

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to 
go onto

the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.


Strange, I've never had that happen on a laptop - all email have been 
cached locally by the clients I've used.



MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy 
sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about 
approach to

email.


Yes, when I switched to IMAP (when I bought my first iPhone and wanted 
to access email from it) I had some "mental issues" with this but I've 
changed my mind. Having the emails on the server as well as on laptop 
have made my life easier, I have the emails in two places, I can easily 
try new mail clients or use two email clients on the same machine (yep, 
it happens), or use different computers/laptop/ipad/phone/etc. It's 
really easy and fast to try something new and/or move around - if I'm 
really desperate all I need is a browser and I can access the email from 
almost anywhere (happens 1-2 times/year).


The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the 
future.
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on 
the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could 
offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed 
archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could 
look

into some sort of approach using one of those.


My personal take on this: don't bother (if you have the disk space), 
none of the email archiving solutions I've seen does a really good job. 
It's way easier to keep them all on the server, once again assuming you 
have the disk space but emails takes up surprisingly little disk space 
(at least for me) - for example, my ISP gives me 100GB disk storage and 
I'm not anywhere close to use up but a fraction of this (I had to check, 
it's a few procent) and at work I have unlimited storage.


So in my case the solutions would be (assuming you already have normal 
backup):


1. Don't bother - my current strategy

2. Move the email to be archived into specific mailbox (by year?) and
   stop subscribing to them. This way you have the emails available by
   simply subscribing to the mailboxes.

3. If I didn't have disk space I would probably start up an IMAP server
   on my NAS at home and use that as a storage solution.

4. My final alternative which I've done a number of times is to save the
   mailbox(es) to a text file and in addition store the email in 
Devonthink.
   That way I have one backup that let me recover my mails in my mail 
client

   and a quick way to search old emails.

= jem
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Robert Brenstein]

I used pop for like 25 years before switching to MM and IMAP. Yes, it 
took me a while to switch my thinking about handling email but it is not 
bad. The beauty of MM is its local cache. While the main repository of 
mails is technically on the remote (or local as it may be) server, MM 
allows me to view and handle my email offline, just as I did it with 
POP. The biggest adjustment is not to worry about emptying the IN 
mailbox but establish a set of smart mailboxes (and tags) to create a 
workflow similar to what you had before. Takes a bit effort but it is 
surely possible.


Robert

On 20 Feb 2018, at 21:08, Ron Britton wrote:


Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
Just mentioning the above as the powers of imap are varied but I 
think you'll

find it beats any POP3 setup.


I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one 
way for 25

years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to 
go onto
the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.  
MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy 
sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about 
approach to

email.

The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the 
future.
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on 
the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could 
offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed 
archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could 
look

into some sort of approach using one of those.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Max Rydahl Andersen]

Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
Just mentioning the above as the powers of imap are varied but I 
think you'll

find it beats any POP3 setup.


I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one 
way for 25

years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to 
go onto
the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.  
MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy 
sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about 
approach to

email.


backup ?

for me I find it comforting I can drop my laptop into a metalcruncher 
and still

get to all my email.

Also used it a few times being able to use my phone or any webbrowser to 
check email

without having to have a fully loaded and configured laptop.

The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the 
future.
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on 
the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could 
offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed 
archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could 
look

into some sort of approach using one of those.


I still haven't gotten anywhere near limits so i just let gmail contain 
it all ;)


/max
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Ron Britton]

Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
> Just mentioning the above as the powers of imap are varied but I think you'll
> find it beats any POP3 setup.

I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one way for 25
years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to go onto
the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.  MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about approach to
email.

The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the future. 
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could look
into some sort of approach using one of those.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Steven M. Bellovin]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 1:13, Ron Britton wrote:


IMAP is better if you have more than one device.


I know that's the standard use case, but it doesn't apply to me.  The 
only
reason I'm considering IMAP, is because MailMate has some features I 
want.


I have many hundreds of email addresses.  It's how I control spam.  It 
looks
like MailMate won't choke on that.  MM is also the only true 
power-user's mail
client that I've found.  It has a lot of flexibility and 
customizability.
That's all appealing, but it seems like the way I use email is more 
compatible

with the POP3 philosophy.


Yup.



you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll
then be speaking IMAP locally.


I looked into that.  It seems complicated and prone to failure.  I'm 
technical
enough.  I know I could get it running, but that's a hassle.  
Something could
go wrong at an inopportune time.  I'd prefer to leave dovecot and mail 
servers

to the experts.


It's less of an issue than you might think. You're not trying to receive
email from the outside, which takes care of most of the security and 
spam

issues. If the local server crashes, it all show up as "disconnected" to
MailMate, but you'll still be able to look at the the cached copies of
messages in MailMate, move new ones there, etc.; when the server comes 
back

up, everything will resynchronize. Other than the initial headache of
the setup, the real problem is disk space: you'll have two copies of 
every
such message, one in dovecot and one in MailMate. The rest should just 
work.


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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Robert Goldman]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 0:13, Ron Britton wrote:


IMAP is better if you have more than one device.


I know that's the standard use case, but it doesn't apply to me.  The 
only
reason I'm considering IMAP, is because MailMate has some features I 
want.


I have many hundreds of email addresses.  It's how I control spam.  It 
looks
like MailMate won't choke on that.  MM is also the only true 
power-user's mail
client that I've found.  It has a lot of flexibility and 
customizability.
That's all appealing, but it seems like the way I use email is more 
compatible

with the POP3 philosophy.


you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll
then be speaking IMAP locally.


I looked into that.  It seems complicated and prone to failure.  I'm 
technical
enough.  I know I could get it running, but that's a hassle.  
Something could
go wrong at an inopportune time.  I'd prefer to leave dovecot and mail 
servers

to the experts.


isync is an imap mirror local client that doesn't involve having to set 
up dovecot locally.  If you look for instructions for users of the 
"mutt" email client, you will find lots about it.



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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Fredrik Jonsson]

Ron Britton 2018-02-20 4:42 wrote:


If I were to use MailMate, where would my emails reside?


On the server with a local cache in MailMate on your computer.

The local cache will stay in sync with the server. If you delete mail on 
the server MailMate will delete it locally as well.



What if I want to keep the server empty?


Then IMAP and MailMate is not for you.

But I would reconsider that if I was you. Providers like Runbox (Norway) 
and Fastmail (Australia) have gotten good grades here on this list.


* 
* 

If I was not running my own server I would most likely go with Runbox 
since I'm in Sweden.


Fredrik
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Ron Britton]

> IMAP is better if you have more than one device.

I know that's the standard use case, but it doesn't apply to me.  The only
reason I'm considering IMAP, is because MailMate has some features I want.

I have many hundreds of email addresses.  It's how I control spam.  It looks
like MailMate won't choke on that.  MM is also the only true power-user's mail
client that I've found.  It has a lot of flexibility and customizability. 
That's all appealing, but it seems like the way I use email is more compatible
with the POP3 philosophy.

> you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll
> then be speaking IMAP locally.

I looked into that.  It seems complicated and prone to failure.  I'm technical
enough.  I know I could get it running, but that's a hassle.  Something could
go wrong at an inopportune time.  I'd prefer to leave dovecot and mail servers
to the experts.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Steven M. Bellovin]

IMAP is better if you have more than one device. You can see a message 
on your phone and delete it; your laptop will never see it. However, you 
can also decide that this is a message you can't handle on your phone, 
so you leave it on the server and deal with it later from your laptop.


It's a server-to-many-clients model. Each client can decide for itself 
how much it wants to keep locally. MailMate keeps everything. 
Thunderbird and Apple Mail let you decide which folders you want to keep 
copies of on your computer. Phones generally keep some of a folder but 
not all.


There are some IMAP clients that have local folders -- you can move 
messages to them, in which case they'll be only on your device but will 
be deleted from the server. MailMate doesn't work that way, but if you 
want, you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll 
then be speaking IMAP locally. However, that goes against the intent of 
IMAP, which is to make mail available to multiple devices. That's not 
the only reason it was developed to replace POP3, but it's pretty high 
on the list.


And "cloud"? I run my own IMAP server, so that I don't have to trust 
Google or whomever.


On 19 Feb 2018, at 22:42, Ron Britton wrote:

I've read a bunch of stuff about how MailMate works, but I'm still 
confused about where all of the emails live.


I have been using email since the early 1990s.  I have used POP3 this 
entire time.  Downloading emails to my computer and deleting them off 
of the server has worked well for me.  I'm also uncomfortable having 
gigabytes of my life stored in the so-called cloud.


My perception of IMAP was always the GMail approach.  People have 
their entire email history on Google's servers and only have access to 
it when they have an internet connection.  Reading a bunch about 
MailMate makes me think that it does not exactly work this way.


If I were to use MailMate, where would my emails reside?  Does it 
download everything off of the server?  Then what?  Does it delete it 
off of the server?  Or does it leave everything still up there?  So 
basically I have local and remote copies that stay in sync?  What if I 
want to keep the server empty?

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--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb


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[MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Ron Britton]

I've read a bunch of stuff about how MailMate works, but I'm still confused 
about where all of the emails live.

I have been using email since the early 1990s.  I have used POP3 this entire 
time.  Downloading emails to my computer and deleting them off of the server 
has worked well for me.  I'm also uncomfortable having gigabytes of my life 
stored in the so-called cloud.

My perception of IMAP was always the GMail approach.  People have their entire 
email history on Google's servers and only have access to it when they have an 
internet connection.  Reading a bunch about MailMate makes me think that it 
does not exactly work this way.

If I were to use MailMate, where would my emails reside?  Does it download 
everything off of the server?  Then what?  Does it delete it off of the server? 
 Or does it leave everything still up there?  So basically I have local and 
remote copies that stay in sync?  What if I want to keep the server empty?
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