Re: [mailop] suddenly sendmail cannot make tls connections

[ml+mailop--- via mailop]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020, John Covici via mailop wrote:

> Jan 23 17:51:33 debian-2 sm-mta[7625]: STARTTLS=client, error: connect
> failed=-1, reason=dh key too small, SSL_error=1, errno=0, retry=-1

AFAICT it's the key from "the other side" that openssl is complaining
about -- did you recently upgrade it?

You could disable the DHE ciphers, e.g. something like this
(note: you have to "match" this with your openssl version
and the ciphers it supports):

O 
CiphersList=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-SHA384:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-SHA:AES256-SHA:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-SHA256:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-SHA:AES128-SHA:DES-CBC3-SHA

Note that that must be one very long line.

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[mailop] Messages from small personal SMTP server being marked as junk by Google

[John Gateley via mailop]

Hello,

I have run my own mail server for about 20 years.
It is postfix, and has DNS, SPF and DKIM set up correctly.
It is very small, just serving mail for my wife and I.

She recently sent email to a group of students for a class she is 
teaching, she had

e-mailed none of them before. Most of them had gmail addresses, and most, if
not all, had my wife's e-mail sent to junk.

There were 19 recipients on the To: line.
15 of the recipients were gmail addresses.

Any ideas why? Or how I fix it?
The mail server is too small (much much less than 100 messages per day) 
so I cannot

check Gmail's tools for this.

Thanks

John

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Kurt Andersen (b) via mailop]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:43 PM Michael Peddemors via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> On 2020-01-23 3:26 p.m., Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
> > Or at the very least, hover over should show all the details.
>
> How long do I have to hover my finger over the screen before it shows
> the details? Inquiring minds would like to know...
>

It's not the duration - it's how intently you hover :-D
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

On 2020-01-23 3:26 p.m., Michael Wise via mailop wrote:

Or at the very least, hover over should show all the details.

And yeah, never take the Friendly From, 822 From, or 821 Mail From for 
Granite.


Aloha,

Michael.



How long do I have to hover my finger over the screen before it shows 
the details? Inquiring minds would like to know...


Oh, I forget you spend 18 hours a day over a REAL computer.. ;)



--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Brandon Long via mailop]

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 3:21 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jan 23, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop 
> wrote:
> >
> > Ah... I always forget that people use mobiles nowadays for sending mail,
> > where you have separate contacts list at system level... By the way,
> isn't
> > mobile usage the root cause of most issues with sending messages to the
> > wrong address?
> > On a mobile client you often don't see the e-mail address of the
> recipient
> > at all... you only see the name (well similarly is for Gmail's web
> > interface) - I always wondered why is this, because I see this as
> primarily
> > stupid - hiding from the user to whom he/she is actually sending mail
> to...
>
> Those mail clients also help scammers spoofing inbound mail, because they
> display the contact image and friendly name associated with the spoofed
> email address (which is how one company was scammed out of over $4million
> USD), as we write here in our caution to *not* have your email client
> display contact images or so-called 'friendly' names:
>
>
> https://www.theinternetpatrol.com/warning-having-email-display-senders-contact-image-and-info-helps-scammers-get-in-through-the-cracks/


Expecting users to be trained to catch this is... wishful thinking,
perhaps?  Maybe 1 in 100 will manage it, and even then, not all the time.

I mean, it's nice if it's easier to tell, for those who know what they're
doing... but that won't be everyone.

You'd be better off putting in place other controls on things like how you
process/receive/handle invoices than that.

Brandon
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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Or at the very least, hover over should show all the details.

And yeah, never take the Friendly From, 822 From, or 821 Mail From for Granite.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. 
via mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 3:19 PM
To: Cal Frye via mailop 
Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to 
dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..







> On Jan 23, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop 
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

>

> Ah... I always forget that people use mobiles nowadays for sending

> mail, where you have separate contacts list at system level... By the

> way, isn't mobile usage the root cause of most issues with sending

> messages to the wrong address?

> On a mobile client you often don't see the e-mail address of the

> recipient at all... you only see the name (well similarly is for

> Gmail's web

> interface) - I always wondered why is this, because I see this as

> primarily stupid - hiding from the user to whom he/she is actually sending 
> mail to...



Those mail clients also help scammers spoofing inbound mail, because they 
display the contact image and friendly name associated with the spoofed email 
address (which is how one company was scammed out of over $4million USD), as we 
write here in our caution to *not* have your email client display contact 
images or so-called 'friendly' names:



https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theinternetpatrol.com%2Fwarning-having-email-display-senders-contact-image-and-info-helps-scammers-get-in-through-the-cracks%2Fdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C0a94493052ff4a45e9ca08d7a05b0908%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637154185178426141sdata=%2BesdjIl7F%2FlPfbj9HZJccmL7dgk8ZPRc6UwLhdBTNng%3Dreserved=0



Anne



---

Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law, Dean of Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San 
Jose CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) 
Legislative Consultant, GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant 
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

Location: Boulder, Colorado







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[mailop] suddenly sendmail cannot make tls connections

[John Covici via mailop]

Hi.  I am using sendmail from my own server and using a virtual
machine in the cloud as a relay.  That machine all of a sudden several
days ago keeps getting a message saying
Jan 23 17:51:33 debian-2 sm-mta[7625]: STARTTLS=client, error: connect
failed=-1, reason=dh key too small, SSL_error=1, errno=0, retry=-1

Now, in my sendmail.mc (included from starttls.m4 I have
define(`confDH_PARAMETERS',   `/etc/mail/tls/sendmail-common.prm')dnl
# <= EDIT and I made sure that the file was regenerated with 2046 bits
by doing
openssl dhparam -out  /etc/mail/tls/sendmail-common.prm  2048
So, what the heck is happening, wnhy do at least some sites say the dh
key is too small?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

-- 
Your life is like a penny.  You're going to lose it.  The question is:
How do
you spend it?

 John Covici wb2una
 cov...@ccs.covici.com

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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Hal Murray via mailop]

Michael Peddemors:
> Really wish there was a verifiable way to see that it was a 'Double  Optin/
> COI' email.. 

Has anybody investigated that area?

I think the recipient's ISP would have to get involved with the signup and 
unsubscribe process and keep track of which lists the user is signed up for.

I'm thinking of something like send the please-confirm message to 
signup@, the ISP would ask the user, if yes, send back a 
confirming message.  Maybe it should send back a cookie to be used as a header.

I see potential problems with users unsubscribing manually rather than using 
the unsubscribe button so their ISP knows they are no longer subscribed.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 13:10:25 Michael Peddemors via mailop pisze:
> Too bad so many email client softwares have developed a bad
> reputation for when they ask for 'Access to your contacts', doing
> far too much with that information..

But... aren't contacts an internal thing for a mail client?

Ah... I always forget that people use mobiles nowadays for sending mail,
where you have separate contacts list at system level... By the way, isn't
mobile usage the root cause of most issues with sending messages to the
wrong address?
On a mobile client you often don't see the e-mail address of the recipient
at all... you only see the name (well similarly is for Gmail's web
interface) - I always wondered why is this, because I see this as primarily
stupid - hiding from the user to whom he/she is actually sending mail to...
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[John R Levine via mailop]

message (this time to the correct address), it will end up in the
recipient's spam folder, without them knowing why.
Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.


I disagree. If the sender wants eyeballs to see their emails, they need
some incentive to put in place the systems that'll validate the correct
recipients. Like double-opt-in. Especially before persistent and repeat
use of an address where you don't actually know the recipient wants your
mail.


In my experience the wrong-John mail consists of a great deal of 
individual and transaction mail and very little ordinary bulky stuff. 
These days most legit mailers have working unsubs so if someone signs me 
up, or more likely a store from which they've bought something assumes I 
want endless ads for stuff sort of like what I didn't buy, one click on 
the unsub button makes it stop.


Not so for wedding invitations, tax notices, and so forth.

Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Wise via mailop]

They're complaining, one hopes, about that one particular email having crossed 
a line.

What we do is FAR from Binary.

Heck, sometimes it feels like the square root of -1 is involved somehow.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Michael Ellis via mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:46 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to 
dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..



>> Dnia 22.01.2020 o godz. 23:31:13 John Levine via mailop pisze:

>>> At some point I give up and hit the spam button.

>>

>> And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only

>> misdirected) messages as spam.

>> Maybe one day these senders will find out that when they send another

>> message (this time to the correct address), it will end up in the

>> recipient's spam folder, without them knowing why.

>> Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.

>

>

> I disagree. If the sender wants eyeballs to see their emails, they

> need some incentive to put in place the systems that'll validate the

> correct recipients. Like double-opt-in. Especially before persistent

> and repeat use of an address where you don't actually know the

> recipient wants your mail.

>

>



And when someone hits this is spam on a Double Optin/COI email?



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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Ellis via mailop]

>> Dnia 22.01.2020 o godz. 23:31:13 John Levine via mailop pisze:
>>> At some point I give up and hit the spam button.
>>
>> And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only
>> misdirected) messages as spam.
>> Maybe one day these senders will find out that when they send another
>> message (this time to the correct address), it will end up in the
>> recipient's spam folder, without them knowing why.
>> Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.
>
>
> I disagree. If the sender wants eyeballs to see their emails, they need
> some incentive to put in place the systems that'll validate the correct
> recipients. Like double-opt-in. Especially before persistent and repeat
> use of an address where you don't actually know the recipient wants your
> mail.
>
>

And when someone hits this is spam on a Double Optin/COI email?

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Wise via mailop]

Sometimes, blocking the sender can't be accomplished by simply clicking a 
button...

Sometimes it is *MUCH*, much harder.

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Michael Peddemors via 
mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:19 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to 
dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..



I often speak on this topic to ISP's, and I remind them, never argue with your 
customer on what is spam, and what isn't spam..



Sure, block/mark the 99% that is pretty obvious and fits everyone's definition 
of spam, by let your USERS decide on the fringe cases..



"If a message is in the spam folder, that the customer wants.. give them an 
allow sender button.. don't argue.. you just alienate the customers."



"If a message is in the inbox, and the customer doesn't want it, I don't care 
if it is from an ex-g/f, bill collector (or worse a lawyer *Teasing Anne*), let 
them click block sender"



Do your best, but empower the users .. Google had to learn that early, they 
didn't have a call center ;) But those methods we all can learn from, 
especially when the end user is paying the bills.



  -- Michael --



PS, and of course, the more a customer can do, the more loyal they are in 
general..



On 2020-01-23 12:54 p.m., Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:

> Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 19:28:03 Andrew Wingle via mailop pisze:

>>

>> I can't recall the exact quote but a key rule is basically this;

>>

>> "Spam is whatever my users say it is."

>>  -Various Sources

>

> Does work only when there is a small and somewhat homogenous community

> of users, who have similar views about what is spam and what isn't.

>

> With a mass provider like Google, when there are thousands, even

> millions of users with completely different (and often opposite)

> expectations about what they want to receive and what not, users who

> don't know each other, this rule does not apply. If my decisions can

> influence mail reception for some other person, completely unknown to

> me, who doesn't share my views about what is spam, then something's wrong.

>







--

"Catch the Magic of Linux..."



Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.

Visit us at 
https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxmagic.comdata=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4d2ef5b875da4c362fa508d7a04a3a64%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637154112976572347sdata=w9g6dgXtZdy5maOX11G2wk7091Wyv8E7lT4YUjbf%2BN0%3Dreserved=0
 @linuxmagic A Wizard IT Company - For More Info 
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"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.



604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada



This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.

Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those 
of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.



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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Mark Foster via mailop]

> Dnia 22.01.2020 o godz. 23:31:13 John Levine via mailop pisze:
>> At some point I give up and hit the spam button.
>
> And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only
> misdirected) messages as spam.
> Maybe one day these senders will find out that when they send another
> message (this time to the correct address), it will end up in the
> recipient's spam folder, without them knowing why.
> Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.


I disagree. If the sender wants eyeballs to see their emails, they need
some incentive to put in place the systems that'll validate the correct
recipients. Like double-opt-in. Especially before persistent and repeat
use of an address where you don't actually know the recipient wants your
mail.




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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Wise via mailop]

So ... no more user Safe or Blocklists?
No AI at all, or it just has to be able to, "Show Its Work"... but to whom?

Aloha,
Michael.
-- 
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:58 PM
To: Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. 
Cc: Cal Frye via mailop 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to 
dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 13:39:33 Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop pisze:
> 
> > "Spam is whatever my users say it is."
> 
> And, delightfully, even CAN-SPAM says (essentially) that spam is whatever 
> ISPs say it is.

And I would agree with that. But i would treat the term "ISP" *very strictly*. 
That is, some humans from ISP staff who are responsible for imposing exact 
rules of spam classifications.

Not decisions of random users, not an uncontrollable AI with nobody having an 
idea how it exactly operates.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was 
a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

I often speak on this topic to ISP's, and I remind them, never argue 
with your customer on what is spam, and what isn't spam..


Sure, block/mark the 99% that is pretty obvious and fits everyone's 
definition of spam, by let your USERS decide on the fringe cases..


"If a message is in the spam folder, that the customer wants.. give them 
an allow sender button.. don't argue.. you just alienate the customers."


"If a message is in the inbox, and the customer doesn't want it, I don't 
care if it is from an ex-g/f, bill collector (or worse a lawyer *Teasing 
Anne*), let them click block sender"


Do your best, but empower the users .. Google had to learn that early, 
they didn't have a call center ;) But those methods we all can learn 
from, especially when the end user is paying the bills.


-- Michael --

PS, and of course, the more a customer can do, the more loyal they are 
in general..


On 2020-01-23 12:54 p.m., Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:

Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 19:28:03 Andrew Wingle via mailop pisze:


I can't recall the exact quote but a key rule is basically this;

"Spam is whatever my users say it is."
-Various Sources


Does work only when there is a small and somewhat homogenous community of
users, who have similar views about what is spam and what isn't.

With a mass provider like Google, when there are thousands, even millions of
users with completely different (and often opposite) expectations about what
they want to receive and what not, users who don't know each other, this
rule does not apply. If my decisions can influence mail reception for some
other person, completely unknown to me, who doesn't share my views about
what is spam, then something's wrong.





--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

Too bad so many email client softwares have developed a bad reputation 
for when they ask for 'Access to your contacts', doing far too much with 
that information..


Even me, accidentally have posted a message to the mailing list, when 
meant to send to an individual.


But it is helpful, whether sending or receiving, to see if the address 
is in your contacts (known person) or not..


But we see a lot of changes coming on that front, just overheard some 
Thunderbird developers working on, and I know our team is rolling out 
more 'color coding' of addresses as a visual clue about who is on the 
other end of your communication..


(Course, I guess it should be the 'send' button that is smarter ;)

But fortunately, the cases you are talking about tend to be 'outliers', 
and usually single events, so aren't easily confused with a list washer 
reported at 100 ISP's at the same time, or 100 user accounts on the same 
server at the same time..


Only problem is we have to stop naming our kids 'michael', as my 
auto-populate doesn't start until the 9th character ;)




On 2020-01-23 12:44 p.m., Michael Wise via mailop wrote:

We need much better controls over who we email to

Both in the “Consumer” space, but even more-so in the Corporate space

Aloha,

Michael.

--

*Michael J Wise*
MicrosoftCorporation| Spam Analysis

"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."

Open a ticket for Hotmail  ?

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Anne P. Mitchell, 
Esq. via mailop

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:38 PM
To: Cal Frye via mailop 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach 
to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..


While most of the misdirected email I get is just a nuisance, just last 
week a lawyer at a law firm in California, with whom I have no 
connection, emailed documents in a case, with which I have no 
connection, to opposing counsel, with whom I have no connection (are you 
a detecting a theme here?) - only somehow they sent them to me instead 
of opposing counsel.  I say "somehow" because there is literally no 
connection at all - the fact that I am a lawyer was a coincidence, but a 
fun one, because I got to reply-all pointing out the error of their ways 
(and an egregious one at that). ;~)


Anne

Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law, Dean of Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School 
of San Jose CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification


Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam 
law) Legislative Consultant, GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance 
Consultant Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)


Location: Boulder, Colorado

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--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."

Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd.

604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.

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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 13:39:33 Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop pisze:
> 
> > "Spam is whatever my users say it is."
> 
> And, delightfully, even CAN-SPAM says (essentially) that spam is whatever 
> ISPs say it is.

And I would agree with that. But i would treat the term "ISP" *very
strictly*. That is, some humans from ISP staff who are responsible for
imposing exact rules of spam classifications.

Not decisions of random users, not an uncontrollable AI with nobody having
an idea how it exactly operates.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 23.01.2020 o godz. 19:28:03 Andrew Wingle via mailop pisze:
> 
> I can't recall the exact quote but a key rule is basically this;
> 
> "Spam is whatever my users say it is."
>   -Various Sources 

Does work only when there is a small and somewhat homogenous community of
users, who have similar views about what is spam and what isn't.

With a mass provider like Google, when there are thousands, even millions of
users with completely different (and often opposite) expectations about what
they want to receive and what not, users who don't know each other, this
rule does not apply. If my decisions can influence mail reception for some
other person, completely unknown to me, who doesn't share my views about
what is spam, then something's wrong.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Michael Wise via mailop]

We need much better controls over who we email to

Both in the “Consumer” space, but even more-so in the Corporate space

Aloha,
Michael.
--
Michael J Wise
Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis
"Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed."
Open a ticket for Hotmail ?



-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. 
via mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 12:38 PM
To: Cal Frye via mailop 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to 
dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..





While most of the misdirected email I get is just a nuisance, just last week a 
lawyer at a law firm in California, with whom I have no connection, emailed 
documents in a case, with which I have no connection, to opposing counsel, with 
whom I have no connection (are you a detecting a theme here?) - only somehow 
they sent them to me instead of opposing counsel.  I say "somehow" because 
there is literally no connection at all - the fact that I am a lawyer was a 
coincidence, but a fun one, because I got to reply-all pointing out the error 
of their ways (and an egregious one at that). ;~)



Anne



Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law, Dean of Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San 
Jose CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification

Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) 
Legislative Consultant, GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant 
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

Location: Boulder, Colorado





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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop]

> I can't recall the exact quote but a key rule is basically this;
> 
> "Spam is whatever my users say it is."

And, delightfully, even CAN-SPAM says (essentially) that spam is whatever ISPs 
say it is.

Anne

---
Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law, Dean of Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San 
Jose
CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Legislative Consultant, GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
Location: Boulder, Colorado



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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop]

While most of the misdirected email I get is just a nuisance, just last week a 
lawyer at a law firm in California, with whom I have no connection, emailed 
documents in a case, with which I have no connection, to opposing counsel, with 
whom I have no connection (are you a detecting a theme here?) - only somehow 
they sent them to me instead of opposing counsel.  I say "somehow" because 
there is literally no connection at all - the fact that I am a lawyer was a 
coincidence, but a fun one, because I got to reply-all pointing out the error 
of their ways (and an egregious one at that). ;~)

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law, Dean of Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San 
Jose
CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Legislative Consultant, GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
Location: Boulder, Colorado


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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Andrew Wingle via mailop]

> And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only 
> misdirected) messages as spam.
> Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.

I can't recall the exact quote but a key rule is basically this;

"Spam is whatever my users say it is."
-Various Sources 


Andrew Wingle

-Original Message-
From: mailop  On Behalf Of Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:59 PM
To: John Levine 
Cc: bl...@google.com; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with 
List Washing services, industry feedback..

Dnia 22.01.2020 o godz. 23:31:13 John Levine via mailop pisze:
> At some point I give up and hit the spam button.

And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only
misdirected) messages as spam.
Maybe one day these senders will find out that when they send another message 
(this time to the correct address), it will end up in the recipient's spam 
folder, without them knowing why.
Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was 
a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] Verizon/Yahoo Email Delays

[Lili Crowley via mailop]

Saw your off list email, looking now.

Thanks.

Lili Crowley
Postmaster
Verizon Media


On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 1:58 PM Kenneth Vedder via mailop 
wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I've recently had some troubles with email going to Yahoo/AOL/Verizon.
>
> We've been getting these.
>
> see https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN3434.html
> ... Deferred: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from
> 64.246.100.9 temporarily
> deferred due to user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see
> https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN3434.html
> Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
>
> I've tried to work with Yahoo Postmaster Support but keep getting the same
> form email seemingly no matter what I do.
>
> Does anyone have any recommendations for what might be the best course of
> action?
> We tightened up our SPF records, but don't have DKIM enabled at the moment.
>
> Thanks much,
> Ken
> Amplex Internet
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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop]

Dnia 22.01.2020 o godz. 23:31:13 John Levine via mailop pisze:
> At some point I give up and hit the spam button.

And thus you are training Google's AI to treat completely legit (only
misdirected) messages as spam.
Maybe one day these senders will find out that when they send another
message (this time to the correct address), it will end up in the
recipient's spam folder, without them knowing why.
Don't do it to them. Just delete those messages, don't put them to spam.
-- 
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there
was a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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[mailop] Verizon/Yahoo Email Delays

[Kenneth Vedder via mailop]

Hello All,

I've recently had some troubles with email going to Yahoo/AOL/Verizon.

We've been getting these.

see https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN3434.html
... Deferred: 421 4.7.0 [TSS04] Messages from 64.246.100.9
temporarily
deferred due to user complaints - 4.16.55.1; see
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN3434.html
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours

I've tried to work with Yahoo Postmaster Support but keep getting the same
form email seemingly no matter what I do.

Does anyone have any recommendations for what might be the best course of
action?
We tightened up our SPF records, but don't have DKIM enabled at the moment.

Thanks much,
Ken
Amplex Internet
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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Raymond Burkholder via mailop]

On 2020-01-23 11:17 a.m., Cal Frye via mailop wrote:
Once a gentleman on the west coast used my gmail address as his iTunes 
account email. Not sure what was in his head, but he insisted that would 
work just fine, and wouldn't fix it (for a couple of weeks). So I 
changed his iTunes password and locked his phone. Problem got resolved 
very quickly after that.


On an almost related tangent, I wish I could figure out how to deal with 
Google/Youtube.  I had not logged into Youtube in a long while (using 
this email address).  I moved, changed phone numbers, changed computers.


I went to log into Youtube, and Google says my device is unknown, and 
wants to send a confirming text to a telephone number I no longer have.


The email confirmation methods all work, and validate my account.  Yet 
Google persists in requiring a confirmation of a no-longer owned phone 
number.


As remediation, Google suggests that I might create a new account. Of 
what value is that, when all the content I uploaded is in my already 
existing account?


Is that a remnant of their 'tracking' or is that a plausible mechanism 
of protection?


There doesn't appear to be any alternate mechanism for accessing that 
account.




Cal Frye

John Levine via mailop wrote on 1/22/20 11:31 PM:
In article 
 
you write:

This type of thing is depressingly common for addresses that are common
names and such at the major providers. ...

No kidding.  You would not believe (well, you, Brandom sure would) how
many people with names similar to mine believe that my address
john.lev...@gmail.com is their address.  I get all sorts of rather
personal stuff, offers of work for a psychiatrist in Boston, wedding
invitations and tax documents for a druggist in Paris, car repair
appointments for a guy in Phoenix.


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Re: [mailop] [FEEDBACK] whose address, was Approach to dealing with List Washing services, industry feedback..

[Cal Frye via mailop]

Once a gentleman on the west coast used my gmail address as his iTunes 
account email. Not sure what was in his head, but he insisted that would 
work just fine, and wouldn't fix it (for a couple of weeks). So I 
changed his iTunes password and locked his phone. Problem got resolved 
very quickly after that.


Cal Frye

John Levine via mailop wrote on 1/22/20 11:31 PM:

In article  
you write:

This type of thing is depressingly common for addresses that are common
names and such at the major providers. ...

No kidding.  You would not believe (well, you, Brandom sure would) how
many people with names similar to mine believe that my address
john.lev...@gmail.com is their address.  I get all sorts of rather
personal stuff, offers of work for a psychiatrist in Boston, wedding
invitations and tax documents for a druggist in Paris, car repair
appointments for a guy in Phoenix.



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