Re: [Marxism] Connecting Black Lives Matter and Syrian Lives Matter

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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The connection is that the development of white supremacy against Africans
in support of racial slavery under developing monopoly capitalism in the
United States has provided the prototype [ the economic, social, political,
and even sexual (notice how quickly the plight of Syrian refugees in Europe
has been sexualized with tales of rape and molestation - for a good
discussion of the underlying psychology and its development in the
pre-Antebellum South see Joel Kovel, White Racism A Psychohistory { this is
also important in understanding how deep the rabbit hole of racism goes})]
for the operation of white supremacy, .i.e. racism, in every sphere and
with every people, especially, but not limited to, other national
minorities.

I found this article interesting but superficial.

> Syrian revolutionaries can point to the African American struggle against
> racism and capitalist injustice as “the other America,” which needs
> international solidarity.
>
Without acknowledging what has already been done in this regard - like from
Kafranbel.

Was this written by someone in BLM, because that would explain why it makes
statements that should apply to everyone as though they apply especially to
BLM,

>  Black Lives Matter can embrace Syrian revolutionaries, now refugees, and
> engage in a dialogue with them about what happened to the Syrian
> revolution, what is required to end the war now, and how to establish
> social justice in Syria.

But in case they should ask for a no-fly zone like the Libyans got, there's
this:

> U.S.  imperialist military intervention in the Middle East has only made
> matters worse.
>

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> http://www.allianceofmesocialists.org/connecting-black-lives-matter-syrian-lives-matter/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: The Sanders campaign is officially over. Now his supporters wonder: What’s next? - The Washington Post

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Andrew Pollack 
wrote:

> So from a historical perspective the FDRs/Kennedys/Clintons and their
> lesser-evil mantra are a much bigger political danger for the exploited and
> oppressed.
>
That would also seem to make the relative gains made by black people under
FDR and Kennedy/Johnson a big danger as well. My perspective must be a
little different than yours because I wouldn't put Clinton in the same
class but then I still remember not being allowed to drink a soda at
Woolworths so maybe my experience is too,


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Brexit demonstrates the Left's failure on Race issues

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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>
> which was indeed marked
> vile racism on both sides,

Yeah, because racism isn't the product of a whole history in which the
"racist" of one side have never had a chance to dominate the racists on the
other side. It just what people say to each other.

The failure of the [White] Left on racism is not to be mocked. It is a
tragedy and the main problem holding back world revolution.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
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On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Einde OCallaghan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>  Louis Proyect via Marxism wrote 
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> https://sajjeling.com/2016/07/01/brexit-demonstrates-the-lefts-failure-on-race-issues/
> ;
> >
> This is a rather cheap and ahistorical polemic.
>
> Starting off by referring to the shortcomings of two leading figures of the
> academic Old New Left, EP Thompson and Raymond Williams on race and racism,
> without referring to the numerous valuable studies on these topics produced
> by British historians inspired by them, it then makes a Hügel leap of
> almost half a century to the recently referendum, which was indeed marked
> vile racism on both sides, but particularly on the victorious Brexit side.
> It then concludes that the British left has failed to take racism
> seriously.
>
> This approach neglects the massive and successful struggles against racism
> and fascist organisations that have been fought in Britain since the 1960s.
> Among these was the way the Anti-Nazi League and Rock Against Racism
> combined cultural struggles (particularly within the nascent British punk
> movement) with mass demonstrations (including mass confrontations with both
> police and fascists) to destroy the National Front.
>
> Of course, this didn't destroy racism - fighting racism and fascism will be
> a labour of Sisyphus as long as capitalism continues to exist. As Brecht
> said of fascism: "The womb from which it crawled is still fertile!"
>
> In each decade since then it has been possible to mobilise large numbers of
> people to beat back organised racism and fascism and to make public
> expression of racism totally unacceptable. This task faces the left once
> more. Using the experience of the past and the anti-racist sentiments
> exiating in society at large as a result of past struggles I'm sure they
> will be able to do this again.
>
> However, ahistorical contributions from afar by people who appear to have
> no understanding of the struggles of the past are of no use whatsoever to
> those involved in today's struggles!
>
> Einde O'Callaghan
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[Marxism] My latest stuff on Syria

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I just published Russia now "carpet bombing" Syria from bases in Iran and
then updated it with a shot at counterpunch
Famous last words: Counterpunch on Russia withdrawal
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/russia-now-carpet-bombing-syria-from.html

also recent
40 years after 'Vietnam' napalm returns to human skin in Syria
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/40-yrs-after-vietnam-napalm-returns-to.html

97 civilians killed by air strikes in Syria yesterday
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/97-civilians-killed-by-air-strikes-in.html

Clay Claiborne, Director
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[Marxism] Atl Right White Supremacists take over leadership of Trump campaign

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Now Paul Manafort is out and the new leadership of the Trump campaign comes
from the Atl Right white supremacist gang, backed not only by Trump's money
but now also the much richer Robert Mercer. This now represents an attempt
by open fascists and white supremacists to take power in the US.

The main task of all progressive people in the United States has to be
denying the White House to this criminal gang.

What will the Green's do? Will they win votes from Trump? Will they try? If
they win progressive votes for Jill Stein, which is clearly their focus,
they effectively become a part of their racist " Defeat Crooked Hillary"
campaign.

All the Greens really have to do to support white supremacists taking the
White House in 2016 is to essentially repeat their 2012 campaign and act as
if Donald Trump is really no different than Mitt Romney.

Will the white Left's treachery with regards the people of Libya and Syria,
be repeated with regards to colored people's in the United States?

I fear it is already happening!

Clay
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/17/alt-right-
rejoices-at-trump-s-steve-bannon-hire.html

> Donald Trump’s campaign
> 
> is under new management—and his white nationalist fanboys
> 
> love it.
>
> The campaign’s new chief executive, Stephen Bannon, joins from Breitbart
> News
> —where
> he helped mainstream the ideas of white nationalists and resuscitate the
> reputations of anti-immigrant fear-mongers.
>
> White nationalists today invest a lot of energy worrying about growing
> Hispanic and Muslim populations in the U.S. Turns out, Breitbart News
> spends a lot of time worrying about those things, too. And in Bannon, they
> see a media-friendly, ethno-nationalist fellow traveler.
>
> “Latterly, Breitbart emerged as a nationalist site and done great stuff on
> immigration in particular,” VDARE.com editor Peter Brimelow told The
> Daily Beast.
>




Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Louis,

Just to be clear. If Trump would win because Clinton was one vote short,
would you still refuse to vote for her?


Clay

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On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

 I will vote for Hillary Clinton on the same day I will hail the Chinese
> bureaucrats.
>
> That is it.
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> The current candidate fostered the rise of the
> prison-industrial complex with obvious results.
>

I'm willing to bet the black women in the Gallup poll know about the
prison-industrial complex in a very personal way. Do you think telling them
what they already know will convince them to switch their votes from
Clinton to Stein even if it put the much more racist evil in the WH?



Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Here's the thing Manuel,

I'm not the only black person that fears the White House falling to an
administration openly aligned with the KKK:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/07/19/black-woman-are-most-worried-about-the-outcome-of-the-2016-election-poll-finds/

> Nearly 3 in 4 African American women are “strongly” afraid of what will
> happen if their candidate loses the presidential election, a recent Gallup
> poll has found.
> 
>  And
> polling shows that their candidate is not Donald Trump.
>
> So never mind that I may be a chump, a political chump and dumb enough to
walk around and a traitor to my race besides, you and Louis need to address
these black women and their fears, you need to be able to win them to your
position. You need to convince them to join the Green Party and vote for
Jill Stein instead Hillary Clinton, unless you are reconciled that the
Green Party will remain a white party, and I don't think the approach you
are using with me will work with them.

I recognize that you face a big hurdle. Black women vote at a high rate, so
if you are successful, it will probably mean their worst fears will be
realized. It is very important that you convince them that they won't be
voting against their own best interest. This is important, not only to win
their votes for Stein, but to convince them that the Green Party is not a
force working to make their worst fears come true.

I see 2 approaches to this problem and I see both are under development
here.

1) Trump isn't all that bad. This also has 2 approaches:
a) Trump is just another GOP not KKK, nothing new to fear here
b) KKK has always been in WH, nothing new to fear here

Frankly, I don't see that working, The gut response of most black people to
what is happening is that it is new and very dangerous, and I can already
see the effects of the rise of Trump's white supremacy in the recent
elections for the Venice Neighborhood Council. There are a lot of little
effects afoot already. I've been closely following presidential elections
since 1964 and I know you'll not going to convince me that 2016 is just
another election year with regards to white supremacy, so good luck with
that approach with the masses.

2) Its in the bag for Clinton anyway so feel free to vote your conscience.
Louis, floated this line earlier. I consider it very dangerous because
while it admits the problem with Trump winning, it disarms people and makes
it more likely he will win. Regardless of what the polls say [capitalist
polls], I think it would be very foolish to be declaring "Mission
Accomplished" with regards to defeating Trump's bid to capture state power
in mid-August, Anything can happen - a "terrorist" attack or other
happenings could seriously change the political landscape, elections can be
stolen [ I avoid using "rigged" because its currently so associated with
Trump agitation. ] , and especially for us on the Left, I think its
important to point to the possibility of an extra-legal bid for power. Not
to belabor that point but we know Trump is building some kind of militia
and it could have billions [not just Trump money] behind it. The closer the
vote, the easier each of these alternative scenarios becomes.

What I think this situation calls for is a Left leadership and a Left party
that exposes the capitalist nature of both parties but recognizes that in
2016 there is a real danger that the neo-liberal establishment that has run
the executive in the United States since before WW2 is in danger of being
superseded by a much more openly fascist and white supremacist regime.

It endorse the view of those black women that this is the main danger to be
defeated in 2016 and it supports their decision to vote for Clinton, not
because we believe her lies but because we must vote strategically in this
election to defeat this white supremacist assault.

That is an approach I think will work. Asking them to ditch voting against
Trump to vote for someone who really doesn't have her act together is not
going to win many supporters.


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 154, Issue 29

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Andrew Stewart <
hasc.warrior.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

> their 8 years of imperial neoliberal austerity has created a gap that only
> the Greens can now step into and take power within.


Andrew,

Do you really see the Greens winning the election in Nov.? (taking power)
If so please explain further, because again, not just me, I don't think you
can convince the masses of black people that you aren't delusional when you
make statements like that and they will probably not join the Green party
if its representatives sound so utterly out of touch with the political
realities of 2016.

Many will think you are lining up to put a racist in the White House with
your bold talk, and if Trump should win, they will blame you for what
follows.

Dan Rather on Rachel Maddow "Afro American voters have been through a lot,
they are almost impossible to fool."
He has a lot of respect for the black voter and he is right to. Black
voters have 85%-90% voted their interest in just about every election since
they have been able to vote. They will also in this election and they
believe that means voting against Trump.

Frankly, I doubt Stein can quadruple her poll numbers soon enough to make
the debate's 15%, but if you think she can beat Trump & Clinton, then you
won't think that you aren't voting against Trump by voting for Trump.

75% of black women strongly fear Trump winning and they will be voting
against Trump. They don't share your "hope", yes that is a kinder word,
that Jill Stein can beat Trump, so they will be voting for Clinton.

You may think they are wrong, Dan Rather is wrong and you know better, but
I think they are right.

Can we all agree on one thing? Don Trump's campaign has made the relation
of white supremacy to state power in the United States the main question of
election year 2016.

Do others disagree with that? Because it is crystal clear to me and I need
to know where I stand with you.

Clay

Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
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[Marxism] Red, Black, but Not Green: Green Party Challenges in the Black Community

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Found this while researching the Green Party. I found it a very educational
read, if somewhat dated. Has much changed since 2006?

Also I found it most interesting that in 2004 the Green Party pursued a
"safe-states" strategy to keep Bush, who was not openly aligned with the
the KKK and didn't have black people thrown out of his events,  from
winning, but in 2016 when all that and more applies to Trump, they have
shifted to a pro-Trump oppose Clinton everywhere strategy.

http://www.leftturn.org/red-black-not-green-green-party-challenges-black-community

a few excerpts:

By:
>  Roger White
> Date Published:
>  October 01, 2006
>
> Black voters in the US are like all other voters here with one exception.
> Many of our ancestors had to die for the right to vote for the lesser of
> two evils. Naturally, we want our votes not only to count (no slam dunk) we
> want them to make a difference. Because Blacks are not an electoral
> majority in any state or nationally, maximizing the worth of our choices by
> being a part of an electoral coalition that has a real chance to win power
> is a priority.
>
> Black voters tend to register their anger and frustration at the political
> status quo simply by not voting, not by supporting third parties.
>
> This wasn’t always the case. 100 years ago over one million Blacks,
> primarily from the south and west, played a critical role in the rise of
> the Populist Party—a mass based third-party movement that sought to hold
> the northern industrialist establishment politically accountable for
> dropping crop prices and predatory monetary practices. At first white
> populist leaders like Tom Watson from Georgia advocated for racial unity in
> the struggle against the railroads and the banks. But after a populist
> split in 1896, Watson and other white party functionaries betrayed Black
> Populists and either defected to the Democrats or sat silent as they and
> white southern vigilantes reimposed white supremacy through
> disenfranchisement and mob violence. Black populist leaders and supporters
> were killed. We learned our lesson. This was the last time any multiracial
> third party enjoyed support by the masses of Blacks.
>
The environmental, peace, and third world solidarity movements from the
> 1970s and 80s, the grassroots of the US Green Party, has always represented
> a policy majority and a cultural minority—a minority that Black activists
> found it difficult to relate to.
>

What do white activists do when there aren’t enough dark people in the
> room? Outreach.
>
> Set up a table at the public university in town. Pass out fliers for the
> next meeting at the Saturday morning flea market. E-mail blasts to
> activist- of -color list-serves. Whatever works. Problem is—that shit don’t
> work. Moreover, white activists know that shit don’t work. But they get a
> double bonus. They can pretend to be doing something “pro-active” to bring
> in colored folks with the knowledge that few if any colored folks are
> coming in—at least not to stay (they’ve been known to slip out right before
> the vegan pot-luck). Multiracial organizing is not easy. Doing it in bad
> faith makes it harder.
>
> Another problem is proximity. The Green Party is heavily influenced by
> three main demographics—educated, urban, nonprofit activists; educated,
> university town professionals; and well-to-do hippies in the exurbs. All
> three bases of support have organizations and social networks that provide
> the party with multiple, reinforcing contacts with potential recruits,
> volunteers and leaders very few of whom happen to be Black. Although
> environmental justice organizations like Project Underground and Green
> Action have been doing great work in Black communities, the Green Party has
> little institutional infrastructure there. The DC Statehood Green Party is
> one of a few exceptions.
>
Furthermore, the party’s ties with the Black church, the hub of Black
> political and social activity, are non-existent. Whether this is because of
> old style party defense of political turf on the part of the Democrats or
> the subtle contempt that some green progressives have towards religion, the
> failure of the Party to build relations to this central Black institution
> is at the heart of its failure to reach the Black electorate.
>
> Organizational inclusiveness can not be achieved by reaching out. It can
> only be achieved by getting up, going to where the struggles for human
> dignity and justice are being waged and fighting with the marginalized.
>

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291

[Marxism] Conversation at the beach: What does it say about Trump and polls?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Yesterday, Jerry (who is white) said to me "You know David (who is white)
is really for Trump. He couldn't stop talking about him." To which I
responded "Oh really, he never talks about Trump to me."

This lead me to question how honestly David would answer a poll about Trump.

Are those who are using Trump's bad polls to argue its safe to vote for
Jill Stein taking the likely effects of racism in driving Trump's poll
lower than his Nov. 8th vote?




Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Your question is not based on reality. 1) Syria is not a binary choice, 8
Nov is.
2.) ISIS is not an opposition force, they work in conclusion with Assad.

The relationship of ISIS to the Assad regime is actually must closer to the
relationship of the Green Party to the Trump campaign - namely appearing to
oppose in rhetoric while objectively supporting.

The question for the Green Party, Democracy Now, and the rest of the
anti-imperialist Left that have joined the "anyone but Clinton camp" when
all the non-white Americans have clearly joined joined the "anybody but the
white nationalist Trump camp" is how this white Left will explain its
backhanded support for Trump if he wins and starts brutal deportations and
stepping up the murder of blacks.

Maybe Louis can explain how Goldwater tricked him in '64.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> A question for Clay - by all indications, thanks to Russian bombing and the
> continued intervention of Iran and its Shia proxies from Iraq and
> Afghanistan, the fascist Assad regime, responsible for about 500,000 dead
> and millions of refugees, remains in power. The rebels are without anti
> aircraft weaponry and are clearly on the defensive. In this situation, only
> ISIS has a "realistic" chance of defeating Assad. Should we support them or
> divert energy to a hopeless cause?
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I am so amazed that people on this list aren't more troubled by Trump's
racism. Did you hear his speech on immigration?

Nobody here comments.Nobody here cares. Where are the exposures of Trump's
white nationalist connections.

I feel like the treachery of the "anti-imperialist" Left,which is no
stranger to white chauvinism, has come home/

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> On the polls . . . .the predisposition of the media is to keep as many
> people watching the horse race as possible.  This plays out as a
> predisposition to cover the lesser of the two candidates acceptable to
> them.   This also increases the tendency of voters to think that they have
> to vote for one or the other of them to keep the one that scares them most
> from winning.
>
> We've seen this happen with Trump repeatedly since he declared his
> candidacy.  He talks his campaign into the ground, so the media responds by
> giving him more air time.  Even if it's more air time to imply that he's a
> trainwreck, it's more air time.  Then his polls numbers nudge up.
>
> This is an old game.
>
> ML
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I'm just amazed how the people on this thread can discussion Donald and
Hillary and say nothing about the white nationalism the distinguishes one
of them.

 Am I delusional or are you blind?

http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/why-jill-stein-should-drop-her.html

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Ralph Johansen via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> A.R. G wrote
>
>
>Without weighing in on the merits of voting for neocon Clinton, I don't
>think that is the gist of the argument. The argument is not that she
>is the
>lesser evil. It is that she is *considerably less evil* than her
>opponent.
>The argument is that Donald Trump is far, far worse than Clinton, as
>opposed to say, Romney and Obama or McCain and Obama. In those
>years, many
>on the left foolishly backed Obama at the expense of building any
>kind of
>counterhegemonic pole by exaggerating the differences between Obama
>and his
>opponent.
> 
> Let's say we pretend for a moment. Let's say we're the egregiously
> over-paid freaks in the capital grounds who for years have honed their wits
> doing the deep thinking about these things. They might say, well, we think
> they're getting on to us. It's all becoming so transparent that even kids
> in the playground are on to it. We need a REAL obfuscation this time. We
> once had the Hollywood second-rate movie actor who though past it and well
> on the way to terminal Alzheimers could still peddle crap like he did for
> General Electric tv ads and on the silver screen for eight years, about
> welfare queens, the war on drugs and supply side economics; we have had aw
> shucks drawling Bill and welfare as we know it, NAFTA, the ending of
> fig-leaf banking regulation and the blue dress for eight years; we've had
> the snuggle bunny, befuddled George W. Bush, 'Homeland Security,' gutting
> the Bill of Rights, 'mission accomplished', failed states and concealed
> body counts for another eight years; we've had a black dude who was the
> perfect foil for another eight years, the first 'person of color' and
> Harvard Law Review editor and social worker with the comely family and no
> political tracks behind him who from the time he came out of the band box
> has been entirely in our side pocket, could be counted on to continue where
> Bush and Cheny left off, and left the voters misty-eyed - -  so that we
> could lie and cheat and steal the be jabbers out of the big fat sovereign
> entity enchilada US treasury from one friggin eight year stint to the next
> - and counting? NOW what do we do? Why, of course, the 'You're fired' guy
> on tv, he has said for years that he wanted to be president. Let's put him
> up against the Hill, fill his tender ego so full it spews from his mouth
> like three-day old vomit, Hillary, the first woman president, although
> there have been 58 female leaders of their nations elsewhere and no big
> deal by now, will surely beat the side-show joker and give us as her track
> record incontrovertibly demonstrates everything we want and more, all the
> way back to the White House laughing off the 'but-wait-a-minute,'
> incredulous, gulled voter. And we'll leave all those poor, deluded slobs
> wringing their hands, as they do every four years, over this yet even more
> impossible contest between the two most despised of two 'lesser evils', and
> pondering with great heaves and hos of thought over how they will use their
> vote, which is virtually the only remaining, pitifully small vestige of
> what may have once been slightly more credibly called a 'democracy,' and
> which in better times to come if we squint enough at the distant
> imponderables might be defined at a minimum as controlling one's own
> destiny, more accurately as moving ever closer to substantive equality And
> so we'll 9the WE that counts, that is, continue our journey with our
> paymasters and if we hedge our bets right, us, with still impossibly more
> of the swag. Of course.
>
>
> ---
> This 

Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Like I said, we can expect to hear more pro-Trump voices on the white Left.
Even on Marxist lists. How sad.

I'm listening to another one of his racist titrates now as I write this
now. But , hey, if I was white maybe it wouldn't bother me either.


Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:30 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *
>
> Clinton is both a neoliberal (more inequality) and a neocon (more war);
> Trump isn’t:
>
>  relative-peace-candidate/  2016/06/20/trump-as-the-relative-peace-candidate/>>.
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 2016, at 7:58 PM, A.R. G  wrote:
> >
> > How are we less likely to get war from Trump? Trump has discussed
> actually using nuclear weapons. He wants to bring back torture -- and he
> doesn't even have any qualms about calling it torture, unlike his
> Republican colleagues who purposely used euphemisms like "enhanced
> interrogation techniques" to avoid incriminating themselves. He floated
> sending tens of thousands of troops to fight in Syria, albeit on the side
> of the regime. He has threatened to tear up the diplomatic agreement
> between the US and Iran, and he wants to all abut reward the entirety of
> the West Bank to the Israeli occupiers. He's also pledged more drones.
> >
> > The CIA and the Pentagon oppose him for obvious reasons: he is a
> lunatic. There is a difference between not being pro-war and being so
> pro-war that the other pro-war institutions are afraid you will do it
> without any strategy.
> >
> > - Amith
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 8:52 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > wrote:
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> > *
> >
> > With Clinton as president, we're certain to get more war, in the
> tradition of the last 25 years. With Trump as president, we might not. How
> can that be a difficult choice?
> >
> > “The CIA has demanded Trump is not elected. Pentagon generals have
> demanded he is not elected. The pro-war New York Times - taking a breather
> from its relentless low-rent Putin smears - demands that he is not elected.
> Something is up. These tribunes of 'perpetual war' are terrified that the
> multi-billion-dollar business of war by which the United States maintains
> its dominance will be undermined if Trump does a deal with Putin, then with
> China's Xi Jinping. Their panic at the possibility of the world's great
> power talking peace - however unlikely - would be the blackest farce were
> the issues not so dire.” [John Pilger]
> >
> > —CGE
> >
> >
> > > On Aug 31, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > wrote:
> > >
> > > Trump is farther right than the usual Republican.  Clinton is way
> further
> > > right than the usual Democrat.  But why waste time dickering over the
> > > calipers.
> > >
> > > If Jill Stein wasn't there, I would still vote against both of them.
> Maybe
> > > I'd even vote for for the Skippy McTrotly on the Vegetarian Bolshevik
> > > Alliance.
> > >
> > > But not voting at all is better than using your ballot to sanction the
> next
> > > temporary monarch of the U.S.
> > >
> >
> >
> > _
> > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm <
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> options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com  

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: A Bad Defense for a Mistaken Policy

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This may be the best thing I have ever heard on Democracy Now:
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/amy-goodman-should-adress-this.html

*DR. ZAHER SAHLOUL:* I met with him in July 2013. There was a reception in
> the White House, and I had 30 seconds to talk with him. I delivered a
> letter on behalf of the Syrian American Medical Society and Syrian
> physicians, asking him to protect hospitals and protect civilians, the same
> way that we provided protection to Bosnia during the conflict. *I told
> him that his legacy will be determined by what he does and what he does not
> do in Syria. He laughed, and he said that, "But my legacy will be
> determined by other things." I told him, "Mr. President, your legacy will
> be determined—the most important factor will be Syria." I still believe
> that Syria will determine his legacy.* And the fact that President Obama
> did not follow on his pledges when he had these red lines and did not
> enforce it, I think this is what is causing the chaos and the extremism and
> the refugee crisis that we are facing right now*.*
>

So he can never say he wasn't warned.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 9:23 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> More than half of Syria's pre-war population now falls into one of the
> following categories: dead; dying; disabled; tortured; terrorized;
> traumatized; sick; hungry; homeless. The regime of Bashar al-Assad is
> responsible for the bulk of this rampant, remorseless criminality. The
> administration of Barack Obama, if it stays on its present course, will
> make it through noon, January 20, 2017, without having defended a single
> Syrian civilian from the Assad-Russia-Iran onslaught.


I should be added that this was the demand of the majority of Green Party
voters, who probably voted for Obama in '08 [ I didn't - I voted for
Cynthia McKinney who went on to promote Qaddafi's rape victims as examples
of revolutionary women ] and now will vote to put Trump in the WH. [They
won't vote for Trump, they will in effect abstain.]
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Please listen to what Trump is demagoguing about as I speak. I hope you
will understand why minorities will be voting against him, and not castings
a "feel good" vote for Jill.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:43 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> You're right, Donald Trump isn't a neoliberal or a neocon like Hillary --
> he holds beliefs that are *even worse* than those two ideologies, and in
> any case, that hardly means he's not a warmonger (let alone a white
> nationalist).
>
> https://newrepublic.com/article/135775/liberals-keep-
> calling-donald-trump-dove
>
> I have to say that as much as I don't agree with everything Clay has
> written, I share his frustration with this line of reasoning.
>
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Thanks, I didn't know that. Obviously, I like other black people that have
live all our lives in the US need to learn a bit more about the history of
racism in the US from people like you.

But you are the one inviting the KKK into the WH by pretending that its
been there all along.

Somehow I expect I will be affected by the changes more than you, in fact,
I think I'm already being effected by the changes.

I don't know. Maybe you've been subjected to an up tick in racist slights
as a result of the hate filled rhetoric of the Clinton campaign. Is that it?

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:05 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> I am so much more amazed that people on this list--"Marxists" and
> grown-ups no less--who claim that's it's something remarkable and new to
> find racism at the heart of power politics in the U.S.
>
> People need to learn a bit more about the history of all this, I think.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I have lived in the the police-prison-industrial complex, Trump is more
awful.

Is calling someone a diva okay on this list? Apparently you can call
someone a traitor just no too often.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Andrew Stewart  wrote:

> I'm so amazed you are advocating for voting for someone who arms fascists
> at home and abroad in the name of your la-la land fantasies about Trump
> being more awful than the police-prison-industrial complex. Quite being
> such a diva.
>
>
> ---
> I am so amazed that people on this list aren't more troubled by Trump's
> racism. Did you hear his speech on immigration?
>
> Nobody here comments.Nobody here cares. Where are the exposures of Trump's
> white nationalist connections.
>
> I feel like the treachery of the "anti-imperialist" Left,which is no
> stranger to white chauvinism, has come home/
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Andrew Stewart
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Don't worry about me. As to the race-baiting charge - when that is used
against black people it is in support of the notion that racism is about
name calling and so equally you have white racists and black racists. It is
designed to obscure the fact that racism is white supremacy and is a
social, political and economic system with a 500 year history.

That is why I tend to use the terms white nationalism and white supremacy
instead.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach <http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/>
<http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track>

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Dennis Brasky <dmozart1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> In light of Clay's excellent work in defending the Syrian Revolution, it
> is especially sad, but not surprising given his commentary this past week,
> that he would descend to the level of race-baiting to justify his
> capitulation to bourgeois lesser evilism. Hopefully I'm wrong, but it looks
> like another revolutionary de-fanged by the Democratic Party.
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>
>> Thanks, I didn't know that. Obviously, I like other black people that have
>> live all our lives in the US need to learn a bit more about the history of
>> racism in the US from people like you.
>>
>> But you are the one inviting the KKK into the WH by pretending that its
>> been there all along.
>>
>> Somehow I expect I will be affected by the changes more than you, in fact,
>> I think I'm already being effected by the changes.
>>
>> I don't know. Maybe you've been subjected to an up tick in racist slights
>> as a result of the hate filled rhetoric of the Clinton campaign. Is that
>> it?
>>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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You have to go back over a hundred years for a comparable?

And even then it rings false.

Trump has brought the leadership [Breitbart] of the white nationalist
movement to top of his campaign -meaning they will be in the WH. You can't
say that about Wilson. In terms of what you did say:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/07/opinion/woodrow-wilson-and-the-klan.html?_r=0

This far-fetched statement seems to be based on a claim, first made in
> 1937, 13 years after Wilson’s death, that he said of the 1915 movie “Birth
> of a Nation”: “It’s like writing history with lightning. And my only regret
> is that it is all so terribly true.”
>
> Both of Wilson’s most recent biographers conclude that the quotation is
> almost certainly apocryphal. What Wilson did unquestionably write about the
> film, in 1918, was that “I have always felt that this was a very
> unfortunate production, and I wish most sincerely that its production might
> be avoided, particularly in communities where there are so many colored
> people.”
>
> At any rate, praising the film — which was, despite its odious content, an
> extraordinary technical achievement in cinema — hardly implies admiration
> for the Klan.
>
Like Vijay P with his "we came, we saw, we killed" misquote, You are
distorting history to promote a Trump presidency so please don't try to
teach history to me.

Best regards,

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Jeffrey Masko 
wrote:

> "But you are the one inviting the KKK into the WH by pretending that its
> been there all along."
>
> It has been in the WH for over a hundred years. I'm sure you merely forgot
> this historical moment, so let me remind you. From the radicals over at PBS:
>
> "On the evening of March 21, 1915, President *Woodrow Wilson* attended a
> special screening at the White House of THE *BIRTH OF A NATION*, a film
> directed by D.W. Griffith and based on THE CLANSMAN, a novel written by
> *Wilson's* good friend Thomas Dixon.
> The Birth of a Nation - PBS
> 
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> I honestly don't believe I have to point this out, but Wilson held power,
> and Trump has not.
>

I honestly don't believe I have to point this out, but in the US it is the
billionaire class that holds the real power, not their servants like Obama.

Trump has the power to deny black people housing:

> When Trump was serving as the president of his family’s real estate
company, the Trump Management Corporation, in 1973, the Justice Department
sued the company for alleged racial discrimination against black people
looking to rent apartments in Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island.
>
> The lawsuit charged that the company quoted different rental terms and
conditions to black rental candidates than it did with white candidates,
and that the company lied to black applicants about apartments not being
available.

Trump destroyed my home town, not Wilson My brother worked in these casinos
my mother had to live in the cesspool of crime and corruption he created.

> Workers at Trump’s casinos in Atlantic City, New Jersey, have accused him
of racism over the years. The New Jersey Casino Control Commission fined
the Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino $200,000 in 1992 because managers would
remove African-American card dealers at the request of a certain
big-spending gambler. A state appeals court upheld the fine.
>
> The first-person account of at least one black Trump casino employee in
Atlantic City suggests the racist practices were consistent with Trump’s
personal behavior toward black workers.
>
> “When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the
black people off the floor,” Kip Brown, a former employee at Trump’s
Castle, told the New Yorker for a September article. “It was the eighties,
I was a teen-ager, but I remember it: they put us all in the back.”
>
> Trump disparaged his black casino employees as “lazy” in vividly bigoted
terms, according to a 1991 book by John O’Donnell, a former president of
Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino.
>
> “And isn’t it funny. I’ve got black accountants at Trump Castle and Trump
Plaza. Black guys counting my money! I hate it,” O’Donnell recalled Trump
saying. “The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys
that wear yarmulkes every day.”
>
> “I think the guy is lazy,” Trump said of a black employee, according to
O’Donnell. “And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in
blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.”
>
> Trump has also faced charges of reneging on commitments to hire black
people. In 1996, 20 African Americans in Indiana sued Trump for failing to
honor a promise to hire mostly minority workers for a riverboat casino on
Lake Michigan.

The argument that Trump is untested and powerless while Clinton has had
power as Obama's employee and did all these things that had racist effects,
is of great service to Trump.

You cover up this history with your assertion that Trump has no power [just
billions in capital - strange thing to hear of on a Marxist list, of the
powerless billionaire class!!]

Which fits so perfectly with Trump's "What’d you got to lose?" pitch to
black people.

Rather than supporting Trump's claim that he should be given a chance
because he is untested and so far, powerless, I think we need Marxists that
exposes Trump's racist hypocrisy by talking about what he has actually done
to black people and working people in general.

But I don't expect to see that type of exposure from the Green party
because any effective exposure of Trump would drive more people to vote
against him and hurt Stein's chances at the polls. Hurt Trumps chances too.

Great way to build a revolutionary movement, pretty much guarantees the
Green party will remain "educated, urban, nonprofit activists; educated,
university town professionals; and well-to-do hippies in the exurbs" but
that ain't enough to make a revolution.

Regards

Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

nd you begin to see those
> people actually feeling a certain sense of anxiety...
>
> People always bridle when I say this, but I really doubt that the main
> issue here is white male status anxiety. Obviously I’m not in a position to
> say there aren’t people who are experiencing it. What I’m saying is that
> people in the Tea Party movement have a problem that is realer than “white
> male status anxiety,” that the economic shifts that are taking place, the
> more and more extreme inequality, the more and more going to the top, no
> doubt some people may be unhappy because of loss of status, but many
> millions more are going to be unhappy because of the loss of actual money.
> So my point isn’t really to deny the phenomenon of status anxiety, it’s
> just to point out the extraordinaire eagerness of American liberals to
> identify racism as the problem, so that anti-racism (rather than
> anti-capitalism) can be the solution...
>
> —CGE
>
> On Sep 2, 2016, at 10:15 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> I am so amazed that people on this list aren't more troubled by Trump's
> racism. Did you hear his speech on immigration?
>
> Nobody here comments.Nobody here cares. Where are the exposures of Trump's
> white nationalist connections.
>
> I feel like the treachery of the "anti-imperialist" Left,which is no
> stranger to white chauvinism, has come home/
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 6:56 PM, Jeffrey Masko 
wrote:

> ​Are you saying that's the screening of Birth was not the first ever in
> the WH? That Wilson was not a close friend of Thomas Dixon? Those facts,
> which ever way you want to spin them, are indisputable.
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dixon_Jr.

> Attitudes toward revived Klan
>>
>> Dixon was not enthusiastic about the revived second era Ku Klux Klan
>> .
>> He felt it was bigoted and in no way resembled the reconstruction Klan. He
>> called antisemitism 
>> "idiocy", noting that the mother of Jesus
>>  was Jewish
>>  and lauded the loyalty and good
>> citizenship of Catholics
>> . He also felt it
>> was the duty of whites to "lift up and help the weaker races".[26]
>> 
>>
> Please stop trying to teach me history. You are embarrassing yourself.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: [Ku Klux Klan members supporting Barry Goldwater's campaign for the presidential nomination at the Republican National Convention, San Francisco, California, as an African American

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Earlier this week Amy Goodman, "for balance" did an exposure of Donald
Trump's racism by reporting that David Duke was supporting him. It was a
purposely weak "exposure" because it is so easy to defend against. Donald
Trump can rightly complain that he has no control over who voices support
for him and that is absolutely true.

Another Marxmail member took the same approach today by posting an
endorsement for Clinton from a CA Klan leader. When you drill down into the
story its clear this guy is endorsing Clinton as a Klan leader because it
would get him a lot of publicity.

Again, Clinton and no more stop this guy from speaking to the press no more
than Trump can stop Duke.

If Amy really wanted to expose Trump's connection to white nationalist she
would have covered some of the same material I have used about white
nationalists that Trump has endorsed by bringing them into his campaign.
Wer's was clearly a fake exposure.

That can also cover the case were the Klan endorsed Goldwater. The
important question that must follow is how did Goldwater respond to that
endorsement?

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/08/07/goldwater-bars-klan-aid.html?_r=0

> GETTYSBURG, Pa., Aug. 6—Senator Barry Goldwater and his Vice‐Presidential
>> running mate, Representative Wil­liam E. Miller, met here today with former
>> President Dwight D. Eisenhower and Richard M. Nixon and solicited their
>> advice on the coming cam­paign.
>>
> In an informal conference after the meeting, Mr. Gold­water firmly
>> repudiated the Ku Klux Klan and said he did not want the support of
>> organ­izations bearing that name.
>>
> In rejecting support of the Klan, Mr. Goldwater seemed to have overruled
>> both Mr. Miller and the new Republican Na­tional Chairman, Dean Burch. In
>> recent days both of them have said that the Republicans would not reject
>> the support of Klansmen.
>>
> People on this list really need to learn history better. You reach back 50
years and Jeffrey reaches back 100 years in search of a presidential
candidate as racist as Trump and you both have failed miserably to make
your case.

Best Regards,

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2003673964/
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[Marxism] My challenge to Louis & Jeffery

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Both Louis and Jeffrey have raised examples of presidential politicians who
they think as racist as Trump.

Louis went back 50 years and named Goldwater because the Klan endorsed him
- although he strongly rejected their endorsement,

Jeffrey went back 100 years and named Wilson because he showed Birth of a
Nation in the WH, although he later said he regret it had been made.

Here are a few choice examples of racist statement from Donald Trump:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not
sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re
bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring
crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

“Our great African-American President hasn’t exactly had a positive impact
on the thugs who are so happily and openly destroying Baltimore.”

“‘Laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that.”

“A well-educated black has a tremendous advantage over a well-educated
white in terms of the job market.”

“Who the f knows? I mean, really, who knows how much the Japs will pay for
Manhattan property these days?”

My challenge to Louis and Jeffrey is to provide comparable statements from
Wilson and Goldwater or Clinton for that matter.

And before you respond that these words don't matter, its a question of
policy, remember that you are speaking for yourself and not the millions of
non-whites these statements are directed at.

You need to explain to them why they shouldn't care if Trump or Clinton is
the next president. Never mind convincing me, you're right you won't.

But I hope you are giving some serious thought to how you can win the
non-white masses to your position. Those are the arguments you need to make
here and if you think your comparisons to Goldwater and Wilson will ease
their fears and cause them to see the correctness of the white progressives
that are telling them not to mind if Trump is our next president and vote
for Stein, you are wrong.

So let's see those quotes from Wilson & Goldwater.  That shouldn't be so
hard, after all 50, 100 year ago the GOP leadership welcomed klan support
even if Goldwater didn't.



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Wilson was obviously a bigger racist than Trump because he showed Birth of
a Nation in the WH and had a friend that wanted to "help the weaker races."

You are making this argument to say that Trump's threat to expel 11 million
workers, ban all Muslims from the US and crack down on crime in the black
community - not be soft like Obama is no worst than above so there's not
problem with the white progressive movement to stop Clinton.

Anyone that sees this Stop Hillary movement [which includes Trump and the
white nationalists BTW] as a backhanded support for Trump will be read the
riot act.

You'll build a lot of unity with that line.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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No plans to protest Trump, just Clinton. Why does that not surprise me?

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> I do hope someone's keeping track of all the Republican cabinet members,
> miscellaneous war criminals and Grand Dragons endorsing Clinton.  We should
> widely circulate the list a few days before the election.
>
> ML
>
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Dennis Brasky via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> >
> > When leftists endorse the "lesser evil" imperialist party, they don't get
> > to pick and choose which policies they support and which they oppose. If
> I
> > found myself endorsing Kissinger's protege, I'd drop out of politics.
> >
> > http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/38955-
> > focus-hillary-clinton-courts-henry-kissingers-endorsement-
> > even-after-meeting-his-victims
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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saying:

> it is widely used in many sections of the working class not well schooled
> in university Left etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite
> advanced.
>
Is not a defense of calling someone a bitch [are you opposed to only
calling women bitches? How about men?]

This is a word you dragged into this conversation specifically for the
purpose of condemning both Robin and me. It was not in my post about him.
So its not surprising that you have done this.

I have learned to look at how a man treats women. I've never known Robin to
disrespect women. I saw him with Leila in LA. On the other hand, I know
many sophisticated enough never to use the word bitch but treats other
women terribly, as is the case with Stein as I described above.

And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will limit
your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:29 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 9/5/16 12:29 AM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> Use of this word as a term demeaning to women may be enough to get you
>> kicked out of the SWP but NEWSFLASH Louis, it is widely used in many
>> sections of the working class not well schooled in university Left
>> etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite advanced. I have been
>> working to win Robin to a Marxist view of the revolutionary struggle he
>> has been playing a leading role in so I don't plan unfriending him
>> anytime soon.
>>
>
> Clay, you are a hypocrite. A dozen posts about how Marxmail is reeking of
> white supremacy and now you defend calling women bitches.
>
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Those words are not okay, nor did I say they were okay. Some words which
can't be used here are regularly used by some working class and minorities
who are not backwards in other respects. I won't unfriend them for that.

When your narrow culture framework becomes the ground upon which you judge
others. When the word used becomes more important than its content. Then
you are lost.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach <http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/>
<http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track>

On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Dennis Brasky <dmozart1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How about the N word, homophobic words, anti-Muslim words? Are those OK in
> the attempt to "connect" to the (backward sections) of the working class
> and minority communities?? Sadly, his defending the most common
> misogynistic term has caused me to lose respect for Clay.
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> And again, if you make use of the word bitch a litmus test your will limit
>> your connects, especially in working class and minority communities.
>>
>>
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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Former members of Republican administrations are "crossing over" precisely
because they see Trump as an extreme white nationalist and not a
Republican. Its the Green Party argument that he is just another Repub.
like, paradoxically, many that are defecting. These Republicans probably
would agree with me that Trump has hijacked the GOP.

I'm complaining that you again failed to address my main points which are
that Trump is the leader of a white nationalist movement and will bring
the alt-right white nationalist gang to power in the WH and that if
qualitatively different from Obama or Bush.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> So you're complaining because I didn't suggest compiling a list of former
> members of a Democratic administration crossing over to support Trump to
> mirror the suggestion that we keep a running list of former members of
> Republican administrations crossing over to agree with you in supporting
> Clinton--who has publicly embraced their support and not yours . . . .
>
> Said list follows . . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Mark,
No need to jump to insults.

When I said no plans to protest Trump, I was referring to your suggestion
that this list gather a list and circulate it to protest Clinton. I haven't
seen any proposals put forward to protest Trump on this list but perhaps I
missed them.

Perhaps, I also missed were Jill Stein targeted Trump as almost founder of
the birhter movement and a national leader of the white nationalist
movement, about his new campaign leadership and their connect of
alt-right,1488 and extreme racists elements. Also Trump's connects to white
nationalist militias.

Perhaps I need to be educated so please send me a link to the best Jill
Stein piece on these questions because from what I've seem she says almost
nothing about his white nationalism. This is typical of most Green Party
and "anri-imperialist" complaints about Trump, to be sure, there are plenty
but somehow they always miss the key difference between the Trump campaign
and the Clinton campaign - there different relationships with white
nationalisms, white nationalist organizations and leadership.

Here's an example from Chris Hedges on DN today:

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/5/chris_hedges_vs_robert_reich_on

CHRIS HEDGES: Well, reducing the election to personalities is kind of
> infantile at this point.

Is this his opinion of non-white people that overwhelmingly oppose Trump?

> The fact is, we live in a system that Sheldon Wolin calls inverted
> totalitarianism. It’s a system where corporate power has seized all of the
> levers of control.

Then there is nothing we can do - don't even try to organize a strike or
rebellion - he also blames the Libyans and Syrians for even trying.

> There is no way to vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs or
> ExxonMobil or Raytheon.

That would seem to make even voting for the Green Party futile.

> We’ve lost our privacy. We’ve seen, under Obama, an assault against civil
> liberties that has outstripped what George W. Bush carried out.
>

No clue here that the 2 campaigns have very different relations to the kkk

>
> So, is Trump a repugnant personality? Yes. Although I would argue that in
> terms of megalomania and narcissism, Hillary Clinton is not far behind. But
> the point is, we’ve got to break away from—which is exactly the narrative
> they want us to focus on. We’ve got to break away from political
> personalities and understand and examine and critique the structures of
> power. And, in fact, the Democratic Party, especially beginning under Bill
> Clinton, has carried water for corporate entities as assiduously as the
> Republican Party. This is something that Ralph Nader understood long before
> the rest of us, and stepped out very courageously in 2000. And I think we
> will look back on that period and find Ralph to be an amazingly prophetic
> figure. Nobody understands corporate power better than Ralph. And I think
> now people have caught up with Ralph.
>
>
> The fact is, Clinton has a track record, and it’s one that has abandoned
> children. I mean, she and her husband destroyed welfare as we know it, and
> 70 percent of the original recipients were children. This debate over—I
> don’t like Trump, but Trump is not the phenomenon. Trump is responding to a
> phenomenon created by neoliberalism. And we may get rid of Trump, but we
> will get something even more vile, maybe Ted Cruz.
>

Do you see what I mean? Plenty of criticism of Trump. That's not my
complaint. My complaint is that this is typical of the Green
Party/anti-imperialist "complaints" about Trump - they generally share
three characteristics 1) They steer clear of the national question
[generally sticking to just economics-as if those were the only defining
questions of 2016 ]  2) They ignore Trump's history as a particularly mean
and racist billionaire class capitalist to claim Clinton has a track record
but The Donald doesn't. 3) Using the advantages 1) & 2) give to them,
manage to balance the scales so that Clinton looks like the greater of two
evils in any case.


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Mark Lause  wrote:

> Stein complains continually about Trump.  Are you deaf?  Dumb?  Blind?  Or
> just operating on the usual yankee-doodledy faith-based politics?
>
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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This is what I'm seriously trying to understand. Just as an example A.R.F.
you give this summation:

 the Republicans are in a similar place as us, but for
> different reasons: they, too, do not see "their" candidate on the ballot. I
> think it was obvious that most of the traditional Republican Party types
> were backing Rubio and Cruz. Now they're being expected to endorse the guy
> who insulted them and their families, who accused the last GOP President of
> failing to stop 9/11 (while hanging out with people who think he was in on
> it), who mocked one of the last GOP nominees for being captured and
> tortured by communist guerrillas in Vietnam, and who spent much of his time
> in the orbit of the Clintons. On the other hand, they have Clinton, who
> they and their party machine have spent decades painting as a Communist (if
> only!).
>
> So I would not put too much stock into who the Republicans end up
> endorsing, whether Clinton, Trump, Johnson or nobody. They are in panic
> mode as their party collapses.


And the national question doesn't enter the discussion at all. Its like the
above is just about how white people see the election. Differences around
McCain get mentioned, differences around the national question ignored. I
mean why is the GOP collapsing? Doesn't the national question loom large on
that question? How about the Brexit vote? the AfD victory? I see a growing
white nationalist influence in all of this, but generally speaking, people
on this list don't.   People of color don't spend 2 paragraphs on this
election without touch on the questions of white nationalist, Trump's
hateful message and dangerous threats. I'm trying to understand why it is
so different here. I know you are all tired of hearing from me about it but
I'm just trying to understand the disconnect.

Regards,

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 8:05 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> My guess is that the Republicans are in a similar place as us, but for
> different reasons: they, too, do not see "their" candidate on the ballot. I
> think it was obvious that most of the traditional Republican Party types
> were backing Rubio and Cruz. Now they're being expected to endorse the guy
> who insulted them and their families, who accused the last GOP President of
> failing to stop 9/11 (while hanging out with people who think he was in on
> it), who mocked one of the last GOP nominees for being captured and
> tortured by communist guerrillas in Vietnam, and who spent much of his time
> in the orbit of the Clintons. On the other hand, they have Clinton, who
> they and their party machine have spent decades painting as a Communist (if
> only!).
>
> So I would not put too much stock into who the Republicans end up
> endorsing, whether Clinton, Trump, Johnson or nobody. They are in panic
> mode as their party collapses.
>
> I really think we should spend less time discussing the same stuff over and
> over about Clinton and Trump and more time discussing what a long-term
> strategy after November looks like. It seems that most of you have resigned
> yourselves to voting Green. I am doing the same, but A) I don't live in a
> state where it matters and B) that is only a ritual I do every 4 years,
> it's not much of a plan. Perhaps we should discuss that instead.
>
> - Amith
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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Einde,

The question here is not do you struggle with a Syrian revolutionary like
Robin around him using the word "bitch" ? [Remembering English is not his
1st language], of course you do.

Or do you cut him off forever because he used that word TWICE! and bring it
up even after he has corrected himself and while using a very offensive
term, because he doesn't like her, has dropped the sexism term?

That was what Louis did and apparently expects from others. [why would I
forward anything from Robin to this list after he had called Stein a bitch
on his timeline!]

I should also point out that charges of sexism are claims that are often
falsely used by racists to attack non-white men so white Marxists need to
be aware of that and not make such changes lightly. Many Syrian refuges in
Germany and elsewhere have been tarred with changes of sexism. Also there
has been a longer history of this sort of thing with black men.

Louis taps into that often unconscious prejudice by accusing me of sexism
because I defended sending to this list a tweet written by someone who
twice used the word bitch elsewhere. I know he wants to take me down
because of my opposition to Stein, but this is not the right way to do it.
Same should be said about his attack on Robin.

Clay



Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 12:54 AM, Einde OCallaghan via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
>
> Am 05.09.2016 um 16:49 schrieb Dennis Brasky via Marxism:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>> *
>>
>> How about the N word, homophobic words, anti-Muslim words? Are those OK in
>> the attempt to "connect" to the (backward sections) of the working class
>> and minority communities?? Sadly, his defending the most common
>> misogynistic term has caused me to lose respect for Clay.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>>
>> On this issue, I remember during the British Miners' Strike in 1984 on
> the firs tbig national demo there were 2 slogans raised by some miners on
> the first big national demo. One of the was "Ditch the bitch!", referring
> to Margaret Thatcher, and the other was "Get your tits out for the boys!"
> (the weather was very hot and many women were wearing summer tops). Women
> supporters of the miners didn't accept either slogan and there were many
> arguments on the demonstration that day where supporters of the strike
> (also many left-wing men) argued with these strikers about the use of
> demeaning language against women. These slogans were never used again on
> any of the later local and national demos.
>
> Admittedly there were some (nearly all men) who argued that the first
> slogan was an expression of class hatred and the second was just a bit of
> playful banter, but it was perfectly correct for the comrades to challenge
> the sexism they expressed.
>
> One other related issue - for years there'd been a campaign by socialists
> and feminists about the fact that every month in The Miner, the union
> paper, there was a topless picture of a miner's wife or girl friend. The
> editor argued that the women themsleves were queueing up to have they're
> pictures published. During the strike these pictures were dropped and never
> appeared in the paper again.
>
> Accepting sexism in the working class in any form is just as divisive as
> accepting racism in any form and it's prefectly correct for socialists to
> take issue with both these expressions of backward ideas.
>
> Einde O'Callaghan
&g

Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Louis,

Remember a couple of weeks ago when you said:

Finally, isn't it time to recognize that the Trump campaign is toast? The
> numbers are devastating:


Well, now most polls  show Clinton's lead cut in half. Reuters has them
neck-in-neck. Any honest stock broker would be issuing a revised estimate
by now. Will you?

As I said, I think talk like that is treacherous and I don't say that light
because I have a great deal of respect for you, but I have to call them
like I see them.

It is only being put forward that Trump will surely lose to calm the fears
of voters who are convinced he is a much greater evil, so that they won't
worry so much and won't feel the need to vote for Clinton who they rightly
detest.

The question of whether he may win or not is something quite separate an
evaluation of his politics, which I want to get into with your Goldwater
quote but I see my lunch hr is drawing to a close so that will have tu wait.

So just on this question: I thought your estimate that the Trump campaign
was toast when you said it. I've laid out all the things that could happen
before 8 Nov. other places, there are many.

Are you now ready to revise your estimate of Trump's chances?

More, later

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> On 9/1/16 4:46 PM, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>> As for what we should have supported, there were multiple, functioning
>> mass
>> movements in the country in 1964, and you'll note that most of them did
>> not
>> play electoral politics at all.
>>
>
> Not exactly. SDS had become fairly massive by that point and raised the
> slogan "Part of the Way with LBJ". The CPUSA, which was still the largest
> "Leninist" group on the left, would have upped the ante and called for "All
> the Way with LBJ". In fact the dynamics of the 1964 election were JUST like
> those today. Voting for anybody but LBJ was considered the same thing as
> voting for Goldwater who everybody thought was ready to blow up the world
> with hydrogen bombs. He said "I would remind you that extremism in the
> defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation
> in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" That was widely interpreted as a
> threat to impose a fascist dictatorship on the USA.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Louis,

Remember a couple of weeks ago when you said:

Finally, isn't it time to recognize that the Trump campaign is toast? The
> numbers are devastating:


The Brexit vote was toast too, down 34% in the polls.

Again, this is treacherous talk designed to deceive people so that they are
more likely to do what you want.

The problem for Leftists who peddle this line is if Trump wins and their
treachery is exposed - and hated - as with the Brexit regrets.

Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Clinton?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> Not exactly. SDS had become fairly massive by that point and raised the
> slogan "Part of the Way with LBJ". The CPUSA, which was still the largest
> "Leninist" group on the left, would have upped the ante and called for "All
> the Way with LBJ". In fact the dynamics of the 1964 election were JUST like
> those today. Voting for anybody but LBJ was considered the same thing as
> voting for Goldwater


Did you capitalize "JUST" to say that you completely discount the role of
white nationalism in this election as being different from other elections.
Is that why it remains absent from your discussion of this election?

A vote for a 3rd party certainly was considered the next best thing by the
RNC. That's why my father, a RNC official, organized a write-in campaign
for MLK Jr in key districts. He sold it as a way to show black unity. I'm
sure he recruited many useful idiots that strongly believed that purpose,
and were kept clueless as to the RNC funding behind the project. They knew
blacks would vote for LBJ as the lesser of 2 evils so they gave them a way
to vote for the greater good because they KNEW it would help Goldwater.
When the RNC sponsors or supports a 3rd party candidate likely to draw
votes away their opposition, they call it a "dirty trick" and have to
budget for it. When a group like the Green Party does it gratis, they call
it a gift.

Running someone just to draw votes away from your opponent has to be one of
the oldest tricks in politics. Around 1972 I was working as a punch & shear
operator at AMCAR - building box cars. Union was Brotherhood of Railroad
Carmen, so long ago I forget the local. Anyway, I lead a pretty strong
revolutionary workers group there "Labor Power" lead a lot of good
struggles on the shop floor. And now that I am remember those days, I can't
refrain from recounting this story. I call it

"Friends in high places" -- and I don't mean the kind my father had.

1st a little background -  everything associated with building box cars is
heavy. Everything is moved by 15T overhead cranes. The crane operators were
so skill-full that their idea of a prank was to sneak up behind you with
the hook, which weight 100s of lbs on its own, and placing the very tip
under the back of you hard hat and, without touching your head, give it a
gentle lift as a way of saying hello from 80 ft above.

I must have been fired a dozen times from AMCAR because of various actions
and always managed to fight my way back in, until the last time. Anyway,
this one time. After I got back, the guys told me what went on in my
absence. The best story was how James, a crane operator pinned the foreman
who had fired me between a piece of heavy equipment and a bin of parts
about the size of a desk but considerable heavier. He had the foremen
pinned with such delicacy that not a bone was broken, yet try as he might,
the foremen couldn't free himself, and with everyone seeing his predicament
but not rushing to his aid, James leaned out of the cab and yelled down
"Just stop fucking with Claiborne" and then let him go.

So, after hearing this, when people asked me how I got back this time, I
would tell them "I have friends in high places."

But I divert. I wanted to tell you the lesson Iearnt about dirty tricks and
3rd parties. At one point I ran for shop steward as a Labor Power candidate
and an open communist. Needless to say union leadership was not happy. I
lost by 8 votes which just about the number of votes drawn by a guy in my
own department that had no real chance of winning but had been talked into
throwing his hat into the ring by the union leadership to sabotage my bid.

This is how politics is played by those who are in it to win it. What they
care about is wining the election. Getting their people in power. In 1964
only two candidates had a viable path to the WH, so the RNC was quite right
in seeing a vote that didn't go to LBJ as the next best thing as a vote for
Goldwater.


> who everybody thought was ready to blow up the world with hydrogen bombs.
> He said "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no
> vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice
> is no virtue!" That was widely interpreted as a threat to impose a fascist
> dictatorship on the USA.
>

I am so surprised that you picked Goldwater as your example and that quote,
because I love that quote!

1964 was my coming of age year politically. I didn't know the dirty tricks
my father was up to at the time. I knew he was working for Goldwater and
despised him. He told me stories 

Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire

That is the same link I posted;

Trump Way to the Left of Clinton on Foreign Policy – In Fact, He’s Damn
> Near Anti-Empire


 Donald Trump may have done the world an even greater service, by calling
> into question the very pillars of U.S. imperial policy: the NATO alliance;
> the U.S. nuclear “umbrella”; the global network of 1,000 U.S. bases;
> military “containment” of China and Russia; and U.S. “strategic” claims in
> the Persian Gulf. Were the U.S. to actually rid itself of these strategic
> “obligations,” the military hand on the doomsday clock would immediately be
> rolled back, giving humanity the breathing space to tackle other
> accumulated crises.



> Trump’s language is sloppy, but there can be no mistaking the thrust of
> his position on key points. He calls NATO, the globe-strutting
> Euro-American military juggernaut that extended its domain to Africa with
> the 2011 war of regime change in Libya, an alliance that is “unfair,
> economically, to us.” Trump told the New York Times that NATO should focus
> on “counter-terrorism” – clearly a fundamentally scaled-down mission.


Like I said before BAR may want to pull a Jill Stein and re-write this post
without admitting it given the massive increases in the US military that
Trump proposed today.

The adjective "objectively" isn't necessary. BAR is pro-Trump.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 10:16 PM, A.R. G via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> I do recall BAR posting some arguments that Trump is "anti-imperialist," so
> while they may not be pro-Trump, I think Clay is correct that they've at
> least posted some Trump apologetics.
>
> Here is the piece in particular:
> http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire
>
> And here is the antidote:
> https://newrepublic.com/article/135775/liberals-keep-
> calling-donald-trump-dove
>
> - Amith
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[Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Clearly the Green Party has its work cut out for itself in building
international solidarity with the Syrian Revolutionary.

I think the same can be said about building solidarity with non-white
revolutionaries generally.

https://twitter.com/Qunfuz1/status/772413151883227136

Clay Claiborne, Director
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(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] FYI - I suspect a lot of other Syrians feel the same way

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Note from my neighbor "Please excuse me for being such a bitch yesterday..."

bitch

 (bĭch)
n.
1. A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2. Offensive A woman considered to be mean, overbearing, or contemptible.
3. Vulgar Slang
a. A prostitute considered in relation to a pimp.
b. A person in a subservient sexual role, especially an incarcerated male
who provides sex to another male under threat of violence or in exchange
for protection.
c. A person who is submissive to another, usually by performing menial or
unpleasant tasks.
d. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
4. Slang A complaint.
5. Slang Something very unpleasant or difficult: Fixing the faucet turned
out to be a bitch.

Use of this word as a term demeaning to women may be enough to get you
kicked out of the SWP but NEWSFLASH Louis, it is widely used in many
sections of the working class not well schooled in university Left
etiquette that otherwise may be politically quite advanced. I have been
working to win Robin to a Marxist view of the revolutionary struggle he has
been playing a leading role in so I don't plan unfriending him anytime soon.
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2015/09/why-i-remain-marxist.html
 And frankly, if you unfriend every working class or non-white person who
uses what you consider to be offensive language you will greatly limit the
scope of your influence.

Consider, that while in your world its quite unacceptable to call a woman a
bitch, it is entirely acceptable to support a presidential candidate that
backs a regime that uses rape as a weapon of war and live rats stuffed in
women's vaginas as a method torture and has the self-servicing arrogance
and meanness of spirit to greet the world on Mother's Day with this tweet
about another woman: "I agree w/ Hillary, it's time to elect a woman for
President. But I want that President to reflect the values of being a
mother. #MothersDay." [
https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/729351428720988161 - now deleted.]

At least you didn't unfriend Robin for the same reason you left the
critical-syria list, which had nothing to do with bad language. I think it
was because you couldn't tolerate the criticism of Stein on that list.

So Robin Yassin-Kassab called Jill Stein a bitch on your fb wall. What do
you want me to do? Write an angry letter to Leila asking how she can work
with a man like that? Burn my copy of Burning Country? That's sounds funny
to say. Want to organize a Burning Country book burning party to protest
Robin's calling Stein a bitch?

But what has that got to do with me? He didn't call Stein a bitch in the
tweet I forwarded to the list, did he? Is it that now anything from Robin
is embargoed because he call Stein a bitch twice? Maybe you should look
upon this tweet as a positive response to your critique. After all, he
didn't call her a bitch this time. True he still has an intense dislike for
her but you have to expect that from a Syria revolutionary.

As far as my forwarding it to the list FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I should have
done that even if he called her a bitch. You don't want to hear what people
are saying about Jill Stein if its offensive? Okay, but maybe other people
do. Unvarnished information is critical to revolutionary development.

Regards,

Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 2:24 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> Clay, I had to defriend Robin Yassin-Kassab because after he called Stein
> a "bitch" on my FB timeline, I told him that I can't accept women being
> referred to that way. He then doubled down and called her a bitch again. I
> don't know what part of the left you were involved in the 60s but I was
> around women in the SWP who would have filed charges against any male
> comrade using words like that and they would likely have been expelled. Now
> you forward Robin's twitter about Stein being a "piece of shit". I happen
> to have a lot of respect for both you and Robin but it is wrong for him to
> use such language and wrong for you to forward it. You talk a lot about
> racism on the Marxism list, don't you? Don't forget that sexism is also a
> way of dividing the working class.
>
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[Marxism] Green Party Jill Stein's campaign in context

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/09/green-party-jill-steins-campaign-in.html


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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Black Agenda Report is pro-Trump, which is extremely rare among black
organizations. In fact, its the only one I know of.

 http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire

Of course, they are also pro-Putin, pro-Gaddafi and pro-Assad, so go figure.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach <http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/>
<http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track>

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Thomas <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> For a different opinion, see:
>
> http://blackagendareport.com/black_millennials_reject_duopoly
>
> T
>
> -----Original Message-
> >From: Clay Claiborne via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
> >Sent: Sep 6, 2016 1:59 AM
> >To: Thomas F Barton <thomasfbar...@earthlink.net>
> >Subject: Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement
> >
> >  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> >*
> >
> >This is what I'm seriously trying to understand. Just as an example A.R.F.
> >you give this summation:
> >
> > the Republicans are in a similar place as us, but for
> >> different reasons: they, too, do not see "their" candidate on the
> ballot. I
> >> think it was obvious that most of the traditional Republican Party types
> >> were backing Rubio and Cruz. Now they're being expected to endorse the
> guy
> >> who insulted them and their families, who accused the last GOP
> President of
> >> failing to stop 9/11 (while hanging out with people who think he was in
> on
> >> it), who mocked one of the last GOP nominees for being captured and
> >> tortured by communist guerrillas in Vietnam, and who spent much of his
> time
> >> in the orbit of the Clintons. On the other hand, they have Clinton, who
> >> they and their party machine have spent decades painting as a Communist
> (if
> >> only!).
> >>
> >> So I would not put too much stock into who the Republicans end up
> >> endorsing, whether Clinton, Trump, Johnson or nobody. They are in panic
> >> mode as their party collapses.
> >
> >
> >And the national question doesn't enter the discussion at all. Its like
> the
> >above is just about how white people see the election. Differences around
> >McCain get mentioned, differences around the national question ignored. I
> >mean why is the GOP collapsing? Doesn't the national question loom large
> on
> >that question? How about the Brexit vote? the AfD victory? I see a growing
> >white nationalist influence in all of this, but generally speaking, people
> >on this list don't.   People of color don't spend 2 paragraphs on this
> >election without touch on the questions of white nationalist, Trump's
> >hateful message and dangerous threats. I'm trying to understand why it is
> >so different here. I know you are all tired of hearing from me about it
> but
> >I'm just trying to understand the disconnect.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Clay
> >
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] seeking Henry Kissinger's endorsement

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I should also add that maybe Glenn Ford might want to pull a Jill Stein

on this blog post given the powerful new military Trump called for today.

Clay

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> Black Agenda Report is pro-Trump, which is extremely rare among black
> organizations. In fact, its the only one I know of.
>
>  http://www.blackagendareport.com/trump_anti-empire
>
> Of course, they are also pro-Putin, pro-Gaddafi and pro-Assad, so go
> figure.
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
>
>
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[Marxism] Why Green Party's Jill Stein should drop her presidential bid

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Why Green Party's Jill Stein should drop her presidential bid

http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/why-jill-stein-should-drop-her.html



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[Marxism] More from Robin Yassin-Kassab

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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https://qunfuz.com/2016/08/09/inland-american-conspiracies/

We gave a talk in a radical bookshop, then answered questions.

The first came from somebody who believed the United States had installed
Ayatollah Khomeini in Tehran. Another speaker focused on the New Yorker’s
recently published report on documents incriminating the Assad regime in
war crimes. “Why are they talking about it now?” she wanted to know.
“They’re planning something. It’s boots on the ground, regime change,
something…” This habit of thought – whereby the real torments of far-away
people are dwarfed in significance and impact by the imaginary machinations
of the only state that matters, the American one – is depressingly common.

A third speaker argued (against my cynicism) that you don’t need to believe
in conspiracy theories, you only have to read the documents published by
the Project for a New American Century. These writings call for Syria to be
dismantled. Surely that’s the cause of what’s happening there now.

It’s a strange analysis that prioritises the fantasies projected by a
neo-con, Zionist thinktank (which folded in 2006) over the current concrete
acts of millions of Syrians (and Russia and Iran). Strange and part-way
racist, as if white people’s (especially Jewish) words enter the cosmic
fabric so inevitably as to determine brown people’s history for years to
come. The writings, protests and battles of Syrians mean nothing in
comparison.

That’s what I said in response. The speaker left the bookshop.



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[Marxism] And this from Robin Yassin-Kassab

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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https://qunfuz.com/2016/08/09/inland-american-conspiracies/

It was the left which spread the idea that Syrian revolutionaries were ‘all
> al-Qaida’ before the right applied the slur to Syrian refugees.
>



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Re: [Marxism] Vote for Jill Stein - deciphered

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On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Anthony Boynton via Marxism 
> wrote:


   What is different about this election? It is not that Trump is a
   racist or
   a white nationalist, or that he is incoherent. Virtually every
   president of
   the USA has been a racist, and not a few have been incoherent.

Nothing to see here folks, he's just another Repub. This is precisely in 
step with Trump's current message. With his prepared teleprompter 
speeches at black people and everything else, his campaign is working 
overtime to convince voters that he is just like past GOP 
candidates like Anthony claims, so that he can trick enough moderates 
into voting for him so that he can put his extreme program into action. 
Once again we find the so-called "Left" in service of the extreme right. 
At a time when they should be exposing and protesting Trump's extreme 
white nationalism, rallying voters to defeat him and preparing the 
masses to resist if he wins, we have claims, on a Marxist list no less, 
that Donald Trump is no more racist than Barack Obama!


   What should be done? We should stoke the fires of crisis to the
   extent that
   we can.

How better to do that than help Trump win?

   The best thing that could happen for the entire world with the
   exception of the very rich in the United States would be the absolute
   destruction of the two party system.

The quickest way to accomplish that is to let Trump win and institute 
fascist rule.



   You can do a little bit to bring this about. Vote for Jill Stein.


Anthony neglected to explain by how voting for Jill Stein could stoke 
the fires of crisis and bring about the absolute destruction of the two 
party system given she will be lucky to get 5% of the vote, so I saw the 
need to connect the dots. While its true that there is no way she can 
win and accomplish these tasks directly, if she can take enough votes 
away from Clinton, Trump will win and carry out these goals for them. 
That is the real Green Party electoral strategy EXPOSED!


Clay


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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   ​Nothing good will every come out of voting for any Democrat or any
   Republican. The "lesser "evil" left advocated voting for Adlai
   Stevenson,
   John Kennedy, Lyndon Baines Johnson, Jimmy Carter, Walter
   Mondale...and on
   to Barack Obama and now Hillary Clinton.​ What happened when the
   Republicans won? Wars, attacks on the working class, the poor and
   minorities. What happened when the Democrats won? The same thing!

   What is different about this election? It is not that Trump is a
   racist or
   a white nationalist, or that he is incoherent. Virtually every
   president of
   the USA has been a racist, and not a few have been incoherent.

   What is different is that the electoral system is in a crisis. The
   Republican Party is split with half of its leaders withholding
   support from
   their candidate who is a virulently racist and incoherent reality show
   star. Meanwhile the Democratic party has a candidate whom any other
   Republican other than Trump could beat without getting out of bed.

   What should be done? We should stoke the fires of crisis to the
   extent that
   we can. The best thing that could happen for the entire world with the
   exception of the very rich int he United States would be the absolute
   destruction of the two party system.

   You can do a little bit to bring this about. Vote for Jill Stein.

   Anthony

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[Marxism] Something else Jill Stein has in common with Donald Trump

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/449525268529815552



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[Marxism] Does Donald #Trump's secret plan to defeat #ISIS involve using nukes?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Does Donald #Trump's secret plan to defeat #ISIS involve using nukes?


http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/09/does-donald-trumps-secret-plan-to.html

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Re: [Marxism] What an embarrassing article from a Marxmail subscriber

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Putin as Lincoln? These people are unbelievable!

Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 6:08 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> We should also seriously interrogate the notion of politicians and look to
> Marx himself for inspiration when dealing with Assad and Putin. He knew
> exactly what Abraham Lincoln was and was not as a white former railroad
> lawyer and son-in-law of a slave-owning family. Yet his journalism for
> Horace Greeley and letters to the president would make you think that the
> Great Emancipator was a premonition of Lenin. That is not because he was
> blind to Lincoln’s many massive flaws. Instead it was because he saw the
> Union Army as an engine of historical progress despite the flaws. Does
> Vladimir Putin have similar flaws? Yes, many, but his challenge to NATO and
> the imperial project is objectively a progressive goal and effort despite
> the flawed engine that delivers it.
>
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09/12/the-israel-lobby-the-
> syrian-war-and-the-meaning-of-empire/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Jill Stein responds to Russian environmentalists - Jill Stein 2016

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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And here Putin [ the modern Lincoln]  dinner buddy Jill Stein who recasts
herself as MLK [Jr.]. Curious that those promoting white supremacy choice
great fighters against white supremacy to claim as their historical
parallels.

[White supremacy is reflected in her attitude towards revolutions in
Libya.Syria and running the Green Party to keep it white, keep it small and
keep it ineffective, as long as it remains the social organization they
want.]

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> My views regarding Russia, and even my specific statements, have been
> grossly misrepresented by certain actors in the media and political
> establishment. There is a growing tendency in American politics to label
> critics of the established order as agents of Russia working against the
> United States. For example, when Wikileaks exposed massive corruption at
> the highest levels of the Democratic Party, high-ranking Democratic party
> officials and their supporters in the media began attacking Wikileaks as an
> alleged agent of Russia, despite their inability to produce any hard
> evidence to support this claim. This tactic of smearing critics as Russian
> agents is the mirror image of the Putin administration’s tactic of labeling
> Putin critics as agents of the West. It is reminiscent of the shameful
> history of Russia-baiting attacks against political opposition leaders like
> Martin Luther King Jr.
>
> full: http://www.jill2016.com/jill_stein_russian_environmentalists
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[Marxism] Fwd: Fwd: How A Decision In May Changed The General Election - BuzzFeed News

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Trump's not more fascist. You and I are just falling for Clinton propaganda.

We should remember these "Left" voices that are helping to sell Trump.

Clay


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(310) 581-1536

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-- Forwarded message --
From: Louis Proyect via Marxism 
Date: Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
Subject: [Marxism] Fwd: How A Decision In May Changed The General Election
- BuzzFeed News
To: Clay Claiborne 


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It’s hard to remember now, but Hillary Clinton once cast Donald Trump as a
product of the same old Republican extremism Democrats always talk about.
Four months ago, her campaign blew it all up, arguing that Trump isn’t like
any other Republican, distancing policy and partisanship from Clinton’s
message, and dragging Democrats along.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/rubycramer/how-a-decision-in-may-
changed-the-general-election
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[Marxism] Twitter thread on https://twitter.com/clayclai/status/783525475335495680

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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https://twitter.com/clayclai/status/783525475335495680


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Re: [Marxism] The events in relation to Benghazi and Syria explained

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> https://rimediacoop.org/2016/09/26/draitser-stewart-clinton-libya/
>
>
>
Its a sad day when I see some of the most extreme CT supports for the
fascist Gaddafi regime:

In brief, we know from the emails that Clinton’s longtime aide and press
> operative Sidney Blumenthal emailed her multiple times about new
> developments within Libya regarding a new Golden Dinar currency that
> Muammar al Gaddafi was developing. Backed with the accumulated wealth of
> the Libyan state from its nationalized oil resources as well as large
> stores of gold and silver, the Golden Dinar was intended as a pan-African
> currency that would pose a serious threat to the American dollar, the EU
> euro, and the French franc.


And some of the most chauvinist attacks on the Libyan thuwar:

> What emerged in Libya as the US-backed rebels began to take control was
> simply a pogrom. Black Africans were lynched by these rebel Islamists with
> a viciousness and systemic nature that goes hand-in-hand with their brand
> of extremism, an ideology that embraces racism, homophobia, and sexism
> backed by American ally Saudi Arabia.
>
> In other words, Clinton was aligning herself with the very deplorables she
> now pigeonholes as followers of her opponent.
>

Recycled on this list. Louis may embrace his new friends but I stand by my
defense of the Libyan revolution. This is all trash I debunked years ago.

http://claysbeach.blogspot.com//2013/01/my-libyan-diaries_786.html

Its no accident that US Greens turn out to be big supporters of fascism
worldwide. In my next blog post I will show how fascist Trump supporters
are warming up to Jill.


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Re: [Marxism] Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Mark Lause via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
>
> He described this as the mechanisms by which the ruling circles remained in
> power and the way in which the toiling masses are left with no alternatives
> but to pick the lesser predator.
>

Please explain why picking the greater predator was not still an
alternative?

Clay


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Re: [Marxism] [UCE] Fwd: Who's wasting their vote? | SocialistWorker.org

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Just to take one tiny example from the SWP to show how when you start to
deviate from Marxism you end up throwing the method out with it:

The most compelling portion of the essay is Weese's analysis of what
> constitutes a "wasted vote." According to Weese, the definitions of a
> wasted vote, mathematically speaking, are: 1) Votes cast for candidates who
> do not win; and 2) Excess votes for candidates who do win.


So if a ton of ore has to be mined to find a single diamond, mining the ton
of ore minus a few carets is wasted labor. Worst yet, if the Syrian
revolution loses all the thuwar will have wasted their lives and if they
win those who died after victory was assured ...

And rewrite the Marxist theory of value to take the social out of it so
that labor that goes to crops that fail can be called wasted labor and only
the labor that goes towards crops that are ultimately harvested can be
considered productive labor.

This makes for fun after-the-fact condemnation of failed efforts but it is
of little guidance to the farmer who knows beforehand that a certain
percentage of his crops will fail but not which or how many.

Or to break it down even further, the farmer may know that only 50% of the
planted seeds will germinate, but he doesn't know which ones, so he plants
100 seeds to produce 50 seedling. If he uses "Weese's analysis" he should
consider the time to plant 50 of the seeds a waste of time and plantings of
50 seeds time well spent. Fortunately, he doesn't apply "Weese's analysis,"
so he correctly takes the entire time involved in planting 100 seeds as the
necessary labor to raise 50 seedlings. This, of course assumes that he
plants all of those seeds in such a way that they have an even chance of
spouting. If, on the other hand, he were to plant those 50 seeds in dry
salty beach sand with no water source but the ocean, well that would be
like casting a vote for someone who has absolutely no chance of winning, it
would be a complete waste of time and seeds.

Weese is wrong - if the point of the election is to chose a new POTUS and
there are two possible outcomes then every vote for one of those possible
outcomes is a vote that effects the outcome. Votes that aren't cast for one
of the contenders, like votes that aren't cast at all, are votes that play
no role in choosing the POTUS.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
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On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

> https://socialistworker.org/2016/09/14/whos-wasting-their-vote
>
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Re: [Marxism] Hillary Clinton Takes Aim at Voters Drifting Toward Third Party

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Nov. 8th. Details matter.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> On 9/16/16 1:47 PM, Glenn Kissack via Marxism wrote:
>
>> This is really getting repetitive. I got it the first time, the tenth
>> time, the twentieth time: Vote for Hillary.
>>
>> Weren’t we supposed to refrain from debating this?
>>
>> Glenn
>>
>
> I should have said something about this. I decided that I couldn't impose
> a ban on "lesser evil" voting for Clinton because it is impossible to block
> discussion of the 2016 elections since they are just too dominant in the
> news and analysis on the left to ignore. I certainly resent Clay making the
> same points over and over again but at least we can assume that after
> November 2nd, he'll move on to other matters.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Nader: Trump is a Freeloading, Pontificating Empty Suit Who Has Cheated on Everything He's Done | Democracy Now!

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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What is it with the white Left? How do thy manage to ignore the national
question.

For example, in this interview, Amy asks Nader what Trump would do as
president.

Does he mention nat'l stop & frisk, a wall for Mexico, deporting
undocumented workers, banning Muslims. None of this is mentioned but people
who call him or Stein spoilers are bigots.

Unreal!  Clearly this is two white Leftists talking because no one else is
so blind to the main question the election.

THIS IS THE MAIN PROBLEM IN THE WORLD TODAY. THE LEFT IS DOMINATED BY
CHAUVINISTS.

.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
>
>
> http://www.democracynow.org/2016/9/19/nader_trump_is_a_freel
> oading_pontificating
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Re: [Marxism] Hillary Clinton Takes Aim at Voters Drifting Toward Third Party

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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>
> a vote for a third-party candidate is a vote for Donald Trump

That is the bottom line in this election

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[Marxism] What should the Green Party do?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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What should the Green Party do?

http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/09/what-should-green-party-do.html



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Re: [Marxism] Smear campaign against Jill Stein by Democratic Party hack

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This is far from Jill Stein's biggest problem but it does speak to her
integrity. This is similar to the way Trump supports the worst CTs on his
side with the odd comment that definitely isn't lost on them.

But I was greatly saddened this morning to see Louis uncritically present
her claim that she is a "peace candidate."

What color is the swamp?

Anyway this is my latest on Jill Stein:
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/how-jillstein-tweets-for-trump.html

> Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein knows that since she doesn't
> stand a snowballs chance in hell of being elected, the key to getting
> progressives to vote for her is to convince them that it really doesn't
> matter whether Clinton or Trump is our next president. The problem is, that
> while Hillary Clinton may be just another Democrat, Donald Trump is the
> leader of a while supremacist movement of birthers and more that has
> hijacked the Republican party. While it is true that Hillary Clinton, like
> Barack Obama, supports the fundamental policies that support the white
> supremacists system, Donald Trump represents a much more aggressive form of
> white supremacy and if he is elected, it will be almost exclusively by
> white voters who supported this campaign that is making white chauvinism
> its center piece. These are critical realities of election year 2016 in the
> United States that Jill Stein's campaign is seeking to obscure in its very
> dangerous claim that it really doesn't matter if Donald Trump becomes our
> next POTUS. Hillary Clinton may be a continuation of Barack Obama, but
> Donald Trump is not another Mitt Romney. Dr. Jill Stein thinks the campaign
> she ran in 2012 should be rerun in 2016. Once again the Left is in danger
> of applying an old strategy to a new situation without really thinking it
> through.


See also:
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/huffpost-item-shows-how-jill-stein.html
http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/08/meet-green-partys-jill-stein-putin-sock.html



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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: China boosts Syria support - Global Times

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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 Syria is the Paris Commune of the 21st Century, everybody is going to go
against them.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
> Who's next? The Martians?
>
> http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1001150.shtml
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

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>
>  Moral complacency in the face of brutality can all too easily
> degenerate into full-blown corruption,
>

This is choice coming from the Nation given their support for Assad &
Putin, 2 who have exampled thuggery rule better than Obama. Which is why
Trump, like the Nation, points to them approvingly.  Also because the
Nations long support for these characters has also indirectly aided the
rise of Daesh and the Syria refugees that Trump is using as its main
issues.

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On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
>
>
> https://www.thenation.com/article/how-obama-helped-lay-the-
> groundwork-for-trumps-thuggery/
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I liked these comments:

>  The whole bashing of Obama as being on Trumps level makes me want to
> puke out here in the Pacific. Yuk.


 This country has indulged in the murder and genocide of innocents since
> its beginning. I suggest you do some reading before you try to make
> President Obama responsible for this country's attitude towards killing and
> the lack of consequence for doing so.


Blaming Clinton [and Obama] for the ills of imperialism is Trump propaganda
now being parroted by many voices on the Left.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Jill Stein’s fairy-tale candidacy - The Washington Post

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 6:40 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> When a powerful newspaper writes an editorial attacking your candidacy,
> you must be doing something right.
>
> Then Donald Trump must be doing a lot of things right because WaPo really
doesn't like him. Personally, this sounds like "anti-imperialist" logic to
me. If the WaPo or US gov'r opposes no need to look further, we're for it!


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
Obama or Clinton, no mention is made of the white nationalism that is at
the core of Trump's "thuggery" - interesting choice of words to connect to
Obama.

I also liked this comment:

 Did Alex Jones ghost write this article? The lack of history here is
> astounding. Donald Trump did not rise out of the swamp last week. This is
> who he's been for his entire life. Obama has absolutely nothing to do with
> Trump's behavior, unless you want to blame him for Presidenting While Black.



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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
>> Obama or Clinton
>>
>
> What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
> except this.


Jill Stein in Jacobin:

> Donald Trump doesn’t stand alone. He’s part of a right-wing extremist
> movement that is getting traction now all around the world. This isn’t
> happening by accident. This is because of neoliberal policies —
> globalization, financialization, the trade agreements that empower
> unaccountable, abusive multinational corporations and throw working people
> under the bus.

These are the policies of the Clintons and the centrist Democratic Party.


These are the policies of capitalism. To target only the Clintons and the
centrist Democratic Party is to support the fascist Trump line on our
current problems.

I think the important point here is that neo-liberalism also creates the
conditions for a revolutionary movement. The alt-right is winning the
support of young whites at least in part, because the Green Party doesn't
even try to compete with the racists. They don't even acknowledge the
problem!

Trump is getting to be Trump because of the Left's failure to execute. This
shows that the corruption most visible around Syria, a "Left" worldview
corrupted by white supremacy, is probably the main issue holding back the
world revolutionary movement.

More, later...

Clay

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Oh,  and I forgot - Jill on Hill:
>
> She supported the Wall Street deregulations that lead to the financial
> meltdown and the economic misery that gives rise to demagogues like Donald
> Trump.
>

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Re: [Marxism] MRZine retweets Partisan Girl

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Greg McDonald via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>  Lots of people are being taken in by this bullshit.


I am more and more becoming convince that the larger problem we face is
that lots of people find it very convenient to be taken in by the BS. That
was very clear in the Left's  response to the sarin massacre. Confusion ==
no need to act.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How Obama Helped Lay the Groundwork for Trump’s Thuggery | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Here's another opinion along those lines, from Andrew Stewart on this list:

More typical non-Marxist silliness from The Nation. Obama did cause the
> rise of Trump.


Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Louis Proyect  wrote:

> On 8/28/16 12:43 PM, Clay Claiborne wrote:
>
>> And as sadly typical of many "Left" articles that try to blame Trump on
>> Obama or Clinton
>>
>
> What in the world are you talking about? I haven't seen a single one
> except this. Nearly the entire left views Trump as a total departure from
> American political traditions, understood as either DP liberalism or
> centrism (obviously) or RP conservatism in the National Review mold. He is
> seen as channeling either Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini. I never posted
> any of those articles to Marxmail because they were so obvious and so
> widely available on Salon, Huffington Post and even the Nation. I posted
> the article because it was striking to see it in the Nation.
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Don DeBar:US waging war against Syria in conjunction with ISIL

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Don Debar thinks the rise of Trump is a good thing. He is pro-Trump because
Putin is #NeverHillary

http://www.mintpressnews.com/trump-clinton-danger-us-liberals/214819/
https://youtu.be/Q08X3gEVQG0

#NeverHillary==POTUSTrump just as surely as True == .not. False because
there are only 2 possible outcomes on 8 Nov.  /its simple binary logic

I take support for Don Debar very seriously because he was a very vocal
Gaddafi supporter and propagandist while Libyans I had come to care for and
respect were being murdered by Gaddafi and his supporters like Debar.

I have a whole folder of Debar propaganda videos for Gaddafi. He's a big
liar and I'm not surprise he wants people to vote against Clinton [and for
Trump]


Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Andrew Stewart  wrote:

> Meet yours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y
>
> Marxists for neoliberalism, how cute
>
> 
>
>
> Meet you new friend:
>
> http://en.alalam.ir/news/1650590
>
> American journalist Don DeBar says the United States is in fact waging a
>> war against the government and people of Syria in conjunction with the ISIL
>> terrorist group
>>
>> Don DeBar, an anti-war activist and radio host in New York, made the
>> remarks in a phone interview with Press TV on Wednesday while commenting
>> on the recent purported beheading of American citizen Abdul-Rahman Kassig
>> by ISIL militants.
>>
>
> All the Pro-Putin mouthpieces will be in the Never Hillary camp. #
> *NeverHillary* 
> =POTUSTrump
>
>
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Andrew Stewart
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: How the left is losing credibility over Aleppo | TRT World

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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This is certainly true of the Green Party, which doesn't even mention
"Syria" once in its party platform.

Do they oppose Putin on anything?

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On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
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>
> A Facebook post by Idrees Ahmed going viral on social media exposes how
> left-wing anti-war activists are contradicting their own principles through
> their silence on the Syrian regime bombardment of eastern Aleppo.
>
> http://www.trtworld.com/mea/how-the-left-is-losing-credibili
> ty-over-aleppo-195746
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Re: [Marxism] Don DeBar:US waging war against Syria in conjunction with ISIL

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Meet you new friend:

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1650590

American journalist Don DeBar says the United States is in fact waging a
> war against the government and people of Syria in conjunction with the ISIL
> terrorist group
>
> Don DeBar, an anti-war activist and radio host in New York, made the
> remarks in a phone interview with Press TV on Wednesday while commenting on
> the recent purported beheading of American citizen Abdul-Rahman Kassig by
> ISIL militants.
>

All the Pro-Putin mouthpieces will be in the Never Hillary camp. #
*NeverHillary* 
=POTUSTrump



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Re: [Marxism] Don DeBar: Election analysis and the Trumpenproletariat | Rhode Island Media Cooperative

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Don Debar supported Gaddafi and Assad. He is also a Putin follower so it
should surprise anyone that he is a Trump supporter as well.

I am not certain what strategy is needed to produce the necessary unity of
> program and action required to advance the interests of the working class
> in this tangled condition, but it is evident to me that supporting Clinton
> is NOT it. Her election is the goal of precisely the forces that have been
> working to take down this working class uprising in each and all of its
> forms. In the face of that, it is obvious to me that our task is to take
> her – and, thereby, the elite assembled behind her – down instead.
>

Clay Claiborne, Director
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On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Andrew Stewart via Marxism <
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>
> Very good analysis here. All the Clinton boosters should take note.
>
>
> https://rimediacoop.org/2016/09/26/don-debar-election-analysis/
>
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Stewart
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Re: [Marxism] Don DeBar: Election analysis and the Trumpenproletariat | Rhode Island Media Cooperative

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/2016/09/donald-trump-can-only-win-if-jill-stein_27.html

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On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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> *************
>
> On 9/27/16 10:23 PM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism wrote:
>
>> Don Debar supported Gaddafi and Assad. He is also a Putin follower so it
>> should surprise anyone that he is a Trump supporter as well.
>>
>
> This is nonsense. The filthy Stalinists of the US Peace Council just sent
> a fawning delegation to Assad. When they got back, they probably started
> ringing doorbells for Clinton as soon as they got over their jet lag. Clay
> keeps trying to make voting for Clinton some kind of litmus test. Marxism
> is not about paper turning red or blue when dipped in a chemical solution.
> It is about class analysis in the face of contradictions, a dying art on
> the left I'm afraid.
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings

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What professor are you talking about?

Clay

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On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Andrew Pollack via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> who is the professor under discussion?
>
> On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Clay Claiborne via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> >   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
> > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived.
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> > *
> >
> > FYI: This is the #NeverHillary Left.
> >
> >
> > Clay Claiborne, Director
> > Vietnam: American Holocaust <http://VietnamAmericanHolocaust.com>
> > Linux Beach Productions
> > Venice, CA 90291
> > (310) 581-1536
> >
> > Read my blogs at the Linux Beach <http://claysbeach.blogspot.com/>
> > <http://wlcentral.org/user/2965/track>
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: Terry <terryand...@gmail.com>
> > Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings
> > To: Clay Claiborne <clayc...@gmail.com>
> > Cc: Nader Hashemi <naderalihash...@gmail.com>, Ella Wind <
> > ella.cw...@gmail.com>, Critical Syria <critical-sy...@googlegroups.com>
> >
> >
> > Yes, that's the point - these sites are supporting Trump.  They are
> > pro-Assad, pro-Russia, pro-Trump.  They exchange each others' articles
> and
> > memes.  Some of them have no board of directors, no funding sources, no
> > ads.  Some like globalresearch.ca have been around for awhile but others
> > have just been around a couple of years.  They have influenced how people
> > think on Syria and it seems they are also influencing people regarding
> the
> > elections.  I have progressive friends who have occasionally posted one
> of
> > their articles smearing Hillary.  They have contributed to increasing the
> > negatives around Hillary with their hundreds of exaggerated stories.
> >
> > Where does their money come from?  You need staff to do a webpage,
> facebook
> > page with new articles and memes every day.  The Anti-Media lists 22
> people
> > on their "team" and they have no ads, no grants, no visible sources for
> > their funding.  Former staff from Mint Press thought the hundreds of
> > thousands funding the organization came from the editor's father-in-law's
> > Iranian connections.
> >
> > Russia does have a history of disinformation campaigns.
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-
> > sweden-disinformation.html?smid=fb-share
> >
> > We need articles that look at the disinformation on these sites and at
> > least question where their funding comes from.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Clay Claiborne <clayc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As you know, there are more sites like these - progressive on
> everything
> > >> but Syria.  The Anti-Media, Free Thought Project are two.  Lately
> > they've
> > >> been bashing Hillary with lots of crazy conspiracy theory stuff,
> > claiming
> > >> she's armed ISIS, etc.   They equate Hillary with Trump and push
> Stein.
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > > When they push Stein in progressive circles they are supporting Trump.
> > > Its binary logic #NEVERHillary==POTUSTRUMP
> > >
> > > Clay Claiborne, Director
> > > Vietnam:

Re: [Marxism] [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about the subject line. What I
sent to this list was something like 14th down the thread and really has
nothing to do with Andy's comments, which is what I sent to this list.

Clay

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[Marxism] Terry on the Never Hillary Left

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Below is what I was trying to forward to the list. In it Terry talks about
who some of the #NEVERHillary people are. I apologize if the earlier post
was confusing.


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 





-- Forwarded message --
From: Terry 
Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings
To: Clay Claiborne 


Yes, that's the point - these sites are supporting Trump.  They are
pro-Assad, pro-Russia, pro-Trump.  They exchange each others' articles and
memes.  Some of them have no board of directors, no funding sources, no
ads.  Some like globalresearch.ca have been around for awhile but others
have just been around a couple of years.  They have influenced how people
think on Syria and it seems they are also influencing people regarding the
elections.  I have progressive friends who have occasionally posted one of
their articles smearing Hillary.  They have contributed to increasing the
negatives around Hillary with their hundreds of exaggerated stories.

Where does their money come from?  You need staff to do a webpage, facebook
page with new articles and memes every day.  The Anti-Media lists 22 people
on their "team" and they have no ads, no grants, no visible sources for
their funding.  Former staff from Mint Press thought the hundreds of
thousands funding the organization came from the editor's father-in-law's
Iranian connections.

Russia does have a history of disinformation campaigns.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-sweden
-disinformation.html?smid=fb-share

We need articles that look at the disinformation on these sites and at
least question where their funding comes from.

Terry
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Re: [Marxism] Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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95% of the Afro-Americans you see on TV and think flirting with Trump are
being well paid to fool you. You may not understand how GOP politics is
play in the US, but I do.

Googling your Malcolm X quote turns up nothing. If you can rephrase I will
try again. What I did find was this pro-Trump piece:

"Hillary Is Closer To Mussolini Than Trump Is To Hitler"

www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-13/hillary-closer-mussolini-trump-hitler

Regards,

Clay

Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Hacked Audio Reveals Hillary Clinton Sees Herself Occupying “Center-Left to Center-Right”

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Gary,

Very seriously, why do you consider her a bloody war monger?

1) Because she voted for the Iraq war.

2) Supported intervention in Libya

3) Calls for a no fly zone in Syria

4) Honduras

5) Yemen

6) Others.

a ranking or percentage contribution would be nice because I definitely
don't think her support for no-fly zones or military intervention in Libya
or Syria don't qualify  her as a warmonger but I know the majority of the
pro-Trump Left [NeverHillary] does. How do you see it?

I also find it interesting that all the hacking being done in this campaign
[by who?] is all to the benefit of the Trump campaign, and I would love to
know how he sees himself when he thinks nobody is listening.


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Re: [Marxism] What's up with this?

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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Actually, as Hillary tells it, becoming a Clinton was a Democratic tactical
choice. She didn't become a Clinton by marrying Bill, she kept her last
name Rodham, even when Bill got elected gov. the 1st time, but he was
turned out after only 2 years. Main voter complaint was Hillary kept her
last name, so she changed it and he was elected again and again. So maybe
if the country was less conservative and less concerned with trivial matter
she might be running today as Hillary Rodham and you wouldn't be able to
use her last name to clump her in with Bill.

You #NeverHillary activist are a scream. Does this thread have selective
amnesia?

What about http://www.jill2016.com/  and why isn't the main Green Party
logo for this campaign Stein2016?
It seems to me that every criticism of the Democrats use of "Hillary"
listed above applies equally to the Greens use of "Jill"

There is also "Jill not Hill" Google search for that turns up 37,000 hits.
In addition the above criticisms that apply to "Hillary" I would add 2
more, one minor and one major.
The minor added critique is that it represents a mangling of the name of
the other woman running for president, and can be added to Stein's tweet
that she is a better mother than Clinton. I hate to see a so-called
progressive campaign stoop to that level. Have you ever heard a male
politician brag that he is a better father than his opponent? The question
of what kind father he is doesn't even come up. [I can hear the rebuttal
now "well it should" don't bother.]

The major critique is that it clearly frames the Stein campaign as a
pro-Trump campaign. As the Green's main slogan it shows clearly that they
are going after Clinton voters, not Trump voters, Johnson voters,or new
voters. It is a slogan to divert Clinton voters towards Stein, and unless
she has a snowball's chance in hell of winning, she doesn't, it is a
pro-Trump slogan. In fact, if past practice applies, we can expect that
there will be a fair amount of GOP money promoting that slogan.

-
The one thing I think the Green's are right about is that bourgeois
democracy, which they refer to at it current stage as "neo-liberalist",
does trend toward fascist in the period of imperialist decay. It can be
fairly argued that WWII was more than just a worldwide conflict between
imperialist powers over the division of the world as WWI was, it was also
the first worldwide fascist assault on bourgeois democracy and socialism.
Fortunately this first assault was beaten back by a worldwide coalition of
socialists and "neo-liberals."

I think we are currently witnessing the second worldwide fascist assault on
bourgeoisie democracy and socialism such as it still exists. It already
holds state power in Russian, has developed its barbaric practices in Syria
and, is now making concerted efforts to win state power in the west,
initially by non-violent means.

Given these developments, one could only wish that a Marxist mail list
would spend more time discussing that and less selectively discussing one
of the two female presidential candidates that promotes her first name.

Clay Claiborne, Director
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[Marxism] Fwd: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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FYI: This is the #NeverHillary Left.


Clay Claiborne, Director
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Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


-- Forwarded message --
From: Terry 
Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings
To: Clay Claiborne 
Cc: Nader Hashemi , Ella Wind <
ella.cw...@gmail.com>, Critical Syria 


Yes, that's the point - these sites are supporting Trump.  They are
pro-Assad, pro-Russia, pro-Trump.  They exchange each others' articles and
memes.  Some of them have no board of directors, no funding sources, no
ads.  Some like globalresearch.ca have been around for awhile but others
have just been around a couple of years.  They have influenced how people
think on Syria and it seems they are also influencing people regarding the
elections.  I have progressive friends who have occasionally posted one of
their articles smearing Hillary.  They have contributed to increasing the
negatives around Hillary with their hundreds of exaggerated stories.

Where does their money come from?  You need staff to do a webpage, facebook
page with new articles and memes every day.  The Anti-Media lists 22 people
on their "team" and they have no ads, no grants, no visible sources for
their funding.  Former staff from Mint Press thought the hundreds of
thousands funding the organization came from the editor's father-in-law's
Iranian connections.

Russia does have a history of disinformation campaigns.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-
sweden-disinformation.html?smid=fb-share

We need articles that look at the disinformation on these sites and at
least question where their funding comes from.

Terry



On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> As you know, there are more sites like these - progressive on everything
>> but Syria.  The Anti-Media, Free Thought Project are two.  Lately they've
>> been bashing Hillary with lots of crazy conspiracy theory stuff, claiming
>> she's armed ISIS, etc.   They equate Hillary with Trump and push Stein.
>>
>>>
>>>
> When they push Stein in progressive circles they are supporting Trump.
> Its binary logic #NEVERHillary==POTUSTRUMP
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Nader Hashemi 
> wrote:
>
>> There are a lot of very sick people in this worldand this professor
>> is one of them. Sadly, many on the Left are suffering from the same ethical
>> illness
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Terry 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It's interesting to note that his posts come from Russian sources (RT,
>>> Sputnik) and then some of the fake progressive sites that have always been
>>> pro-Assad.  TheDuran.com, 21st Century Wire, Mint Press News, Counter
>>> Punch, Consortium News, Global Research, Your News Wire.  I know most of
>>> you are aware of the problems with these sites.  It would be great if we
>>> could get some articles exposing their pro-Assad/pro-Russia stance, lack of
>>> any journalism standards, lack of transparency about funding.  They are
>>> effective propaganda.
>>>
>>> Mint Press is located here.  Former staffers contacted me after I wrote
>>> criticisms of Mint Press.  There is a lot of money behind it.  The staffers
>>> guess Iranian because the editor's father-in-law is a well-connected
>>> Iranian.  In 2013 there were 10 people on staff with reporters being paid
>>> $38,000 a year.  https://www.buzzfeed.com/rosi
>>> egray/the-inside-story-of-one-websites-defense-of-assad?utm_
>>> term=.qdxkjVEZB#.wgQVPpW1v
>>>
>>> As you know, there are more sites like these - progressive on everything
>>> but Syria.  The Anti-Media, Free Thought Project are two.  Lately they've
>>> been bashing Hillary with lots of crazy conspiracy theory stuff, claiming
>>> she's armed ISIS, etc.   They equate Hillary with Trump and push Stein.
>>>
>>> They have been very effective in shaping the narrative on Syria (and
>>> lately on Hillary).  They overwhelm the more objective news on Syria by
>>> their sheer volume.  When there are so many stories claiming the U.S.
>>> created, armed and 

Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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I didn't realize this was a very old article from February when I posted
above. That was before Bernie was beaten at the DNC so I would read it
somewhat differently in terms of who it was targeting in february. Question
is why is it being posted to the list now?

Michelle Alexander today [19 Sept]

http://www.faithfullymagazine.com/michelle-alexander-new-jim-crow-author-explains-transition-law-religion/

And yet I now feel compelled to change course. I am walking away from the
> law. I’ve resigned my position as a law professor at Ohio State University,
> and I’ve decided to teach and study at a seminary. Why?
> There is no easy answer to this question, and there are times I worry that
> I have completely lost my mind.
> ...
> And I no longer believe we can “win” justice simply by filing lawsuits,
> flexing our political muscles or boosting voter turnout. Yes, we absolutely
> must do that work, but none of it — not even working for some form of
> political revolution — will ever be enough on its own. Without a moral or
> spiritual awakening, we will remain forever trapped in political games
> fueled by fear, greed and the hunger for power. American history teaches
> how these games predictably play out within our borders: Time and again,
> race gets used as the Trump Card, a reliable means of dividing, controlling
> and misleading the players so a few can win the game.


The New Jim Crow is a fine piece of work but that doesn't make Michelle
Alexander someone we should follow.

Regards,


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Louis Proyect via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>
> An oft-repeated myth about the Clinton administration is that although it
> was overly tough on crime back in the 1990s, at least its policies were
> good for the economy and for black unemployment rates. The truth is more
> troubling. As unemployment rates sank to historically low levels for white
> Americans in the 1990s, the jobless rate among black men in their 20s who
> didn’t have a college degree rose to its highest level ever. This increase
> in joblessness was propelled by the skyrocketing incarceration rate.
>
> Why is this not common knowledge? Because government statistics like
> poverty and unemployment rates do not include incarcerated people.


It is common knowledge, maybe not in academic circles dependent on gov't
stat, but it certainly is on the streets were I live. The skyrocketing
incarcerated rate is very real for black people in LA county, but in no way
does that add up to refusing to vote for Clinton and suffering a much more
draconian and openly racist regime under the only available option.

I don't know why Michelle Alexander wrote this piece. Maybe they asked her
to, maybe they paid her to, maybe it was just another chance to utilize her
amazing research.

She doesn't mention Stein, Johnson or Trump, so what is the point of
targeting Clinton?

I don't know why Michelle Alexander wrote this piece, but I think I do know
why The Nation published it.

Regards,

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Why Hillary Clinton Doesn’t Deserve the Black Vote | The Nation

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ernest Leif  wrote:

> I actually think that white supremacy will be emboldened under the rule of
> Hill & Co.
>

Yes, it will. Most certainly. It has already been emboldened under the rule
of a black POTUS. The alt-right has developed as a result. Donald Trump
came to the head of a white nationalist movement directly because of his
racist attacks on Obama and now there is a serious chance that hwe will
become POTUS.

So will the white nationalists still feel emboldened even if they lose?
Having come this close this quickly they will and no matter what they will
be better organized, more massive and still in control of one of the two
main capitalist parties. Plus Trump is organizing his 2nd Amendment people
into militias and preparing them for extra-legal action, possibly even the
extra-legal seizure of state power, if they can get it with Stein's help.

So will the white nationalists feel embolden when they are making advances
worldwide. Putin's aggression and support for brutally fascist regimes
remains unchecked. And the alt-right has made dramatic gains in Europe and
Britain.

Mean while the western Left has remained white dominated with feel roots
among the masses and most have sold their soul [I'm having a Michelle
Alexander moment] to Gaddafi, Assad and Putin, and now they are working
hard to put Trump in the WH.

So will the white nationalist feel embolden if Clinton wins? Yes, but if
the white nationalist win state power there will be hell to pay.  [another
Michelle Alexander moment]

Regards,


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

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Re: [Marxism] [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 7:49 AM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> FYI: This is the #NeverHillary Left.
>
>
> Clay Claiborne, Director
> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
> Linux Beach Productions
> Venice, CA 90291
> (310) 581-1536
>
> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
> 
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Terry 
> Date: Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 12:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Critical-Syria] Re: NYU professor's FB postings
> To: Clay Claiborne 
> Cc: Nader Hashemi , Ella Wind <
> ella.cw...@gmail.com>, Critical Syria 
>
>
> Yes, that's the point - these sites are supporting Trump.  They are
> pro-Assad, pro-Russia, pro-Trump.  They exchange each others' articles and
> memes.  Some of them have no board of directors, no funding sources, no
> ads.  Some like globalresearch.ca have been around for awhile but others
> have just been around a couple of years.  They have influenced how people
> think on Syria and it seems they are also influencing people regarding the
> elections.  I have progressive friends who have occasionally posted one of
> their articles smearing Hillary.  They have contributed to increasing the
> negatives around Hillary with their hundreds of exaggerated stories.
>
> Where does their money come from?  You need staff to do a webpage,
> facebook page with new articles and memes every day.  The Anti-Media lists
> 22 people on their "team" and they have no ads, no grants, no visible
> sources for their funding.  Former staff from Mint Press thought the
> hundreds of thousands funding the organization came from the editor's
> father-in-law's Iranian connections.
>
> Russia does have a history of disinformation campaigns.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/29/world/europe/russia-sweden
> -disinformation.html?smid=fb-share
>
> We need articles that look at the disinformation on these sites and at
> least question where their funding comes from.
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Clay Claiborne 
> wrote:
>
>> As you know, there are more sites like these - progressive on everything
>>> but Syria.  The Anti-Media, Free Thought Project are two.  Lately they've
>>> been bashing Hillary with lots of crazy conspiracy theory stuff, claiming
>>> she's armed ISIS, etc.   They equate Hillary with Trump and push Stein.
>>>


>> When they push Stein in progressive circles they are supporting Trump.
>> Its binary logic #NEVERHillary==POTUSTRUMP
>>
>> Clay Claiborne, Director
>> Vietnam: American Holocaust 
>> Linux Beach Productions
>> Venice, CA 90291
>> (310) 581-1536
>>
>> Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 
>> 
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Nader Hashemi > > wrote:
>>
>>> There are a lot of very sick people in this worldand this professor
>>> is one of them. Sadly, many on the Left are suffering from the same ethical
>>> illness
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:45 PM, Terry 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 It's interesting to note that his posts come from Russian sources (RT,
 Sputnik) and then some of the fake progressive sites that have always been
 pro-Assad.  TheDuran.com, 21st Century Wire, Mint Press News, Counter
 Punch, Consortium News, Global Research, Your News Wire.  I know most of
 you are aware of the problems with these sites.  It would be great if we
 could get some articles exposing their pro-Assad/pro-Russia stance, lack of
 any journalism standards, lack of transparency about funding.  They are
 effective propaganda.

 Mint Press is located here.  Former staffers contacted me after I wrote
 criticisms of Mint Press.  There is a lot of money behind it.  The staffers
 guess Iranian because the editor's father-in-law is a well-connected
 Iranian.  In 2013 there were 10 people on staff with reporters being paid
 $38,000 a year.  https://www.buzzfeed.com/rosi
 egray/the-inside-story-of-one-websites-defense-of-assad?utm_
 term=.qdxkjVEZB#.wgQVPpW1v

 As you know, there are more sites like these - progressive on
 everything but Syria. 

[Marxism] Sean Spicer, RNC's Chief Strategist now tweeting for Stein

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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Sean Spicer ‏@seanspicer  Chief Strategist & Communications Director,
Republican National Cmte [verified account]


@smerconish since you are such an advocate of 3rd parties when was the last
time you or @cnn had @DrJillStein on?
https://twitter.com/seanspicer/status/782190359455666176

9am every sat. That aside choosing not to give her air time is clearly an
attempt to help @TheDemocrats @HillaryClinton
https://twitter.com/seanspicer/status/782191576000950272

1 comment & 3 questions:
comment - my father would be proud to see this GOP tradition continued.

1) Why is the chief GOP strategists doing this?
2) Do you think he puts any money where his mouth is?
3) Are all the Stein supporters on this list going to re-tweet him?







Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

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