Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[andrew coates via Marxism]

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Many of us have been deeply affected by the bullying of people we greatly 
admire,

(2017: UK transgender rights row intensifies as book fair is cancelled
 This article is more than 1 year old

Accusations of ‘transphobia’ have led to bitter divisions within Labour and the 
Women’s Equality party, feminist and anarchist movements

"The rows “are going on within all sorts of social movements”, said Helen 
Steel, the veteran social justice campaigner known for her role in taking on 
McDonald’s in the 1997 “McLibel” case.

Steel, who is among those caught up in the book fair controversy, said that 
until now, discussion had “taken place in a bubble that has agreed with 
itself”. She added: “Now that those ideas are actually going to be translated 
into law, other people are becoming aware of those proposals and say, ‘hang on 
– can we have time to consider the implications properly and let women have a 
say in how our lives may be affected by these changes?’”

She said she had been left traumatised by 
her experience at the book fair, claiming she was surrounded by a “baying mob” 
after intervening to stop the bullying of two women who had been distributing 
leaflets about the GRA.

I have been aware that women have been bullied on this issue for a long time 
now but, until it happened to me, I was not aware of the extent of the bullying 
and am shocked by it,” Steel said. “I have been an environmental and social 
justice campaigner for most of my life. In all that time, I have never 
experienced such a toxic environment.”

Opponents of Steel and the other feminists assert that to have allowed the 
distribution of the leaflets was to create an environment in which transphobia 
was encouraged, discriminating against a group of people who already experience 
high rates of suicide, poverty and persecution."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/26/transgender-anarchist-book-fair-transphobia-row



Andrew Coates
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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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OK, so "there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement". So I
could be lying. I'm not.

And I'm sure you have seen, amongst worse, the "Give the TERF a platform"
memes, with the picture of a gibbet. I'm sure you are aware of the concept
of the "cotton ceiling" (referencing women's underwear) and the
anti-lesbian violent misogynistic statements that circulate around lesbians
who refuse to have sex with trans women who haven't undergone surgical
transition. These things aren't made up. "Vague accusations of alleged
failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard
trope of the alt-right". Point me to a left site that supports the trans
agenda but has condemned the misogyny. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'd
be really pleased to see the evidence. And please don't conflate my
concerns with the alt-right. In Iran gay people can by executed but trans
people can access gender realignment surgery. That doesn't make you a
homophobe. So guilt by association is a weak argument.

So I've just extended a "red-herring-laden “invitations” to debate like
this one are so tedious." Feel free to point to the "red herring[s]" that I
put out there. But please don't include the straw man quotes that you
yourself posted.

Having concerns about the hard fought gains made by women over the decades
is not 'transphobia'. I absolutely support the right of trans people to
live free of discrimination and threats of violence. There are trans people
on both sides of this debate.

Having concerns that children too young to give informed consent are being
prescribed puberty blockers (not fully reversible despite the claims) and
in many cases then progressing to a lifetime of sex hormones (linked to
some cancers and other side effects) is not transphobia. It should not be
left to private clinics to "support gender affirmation" without adequate
provision of alternative counseling to make these life changing decisions.

I'm concerned that the important rights of a tiny minority seem to require
the trading away of a majority (women and girls)'s rights. There should be
a way forward that does not involve such a 'zero sum' solution. And it does
seem that it's only women, not men, who are being expected to give up these
rights. How about properly funded shelters for abused trans women instead
of abused and vulnerable women having to share their crisis shelters with
people who seem to them to all intents and purposes to be men? Men's,
women's and unisex toilets etc. Some of the trans activists I've discussed
this issue with have been women, including some lesbians who have no
problem with surrendering the women only status of their changing rooms.
That's their prerogative. But if this list and my general experience is
anything to go by, the Left (in the West where this debate seems most
prevalent), is still overwhelmingly male. If that overwhelmingly male Left
is deciding that discussion with women over this issue is off limits, it's
hardly surprising and unlikely to change.

This is not an easy issue but the solution should not be to shut down the
discussion.

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 12:53 PM MM  wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:12 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism <
> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:
>
> I have seen
> calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
> leftist allies involved in the same discussion)….
>
>
> It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
> should be able to go unchallenged by the Left.
>
>
> Without knowing which discussion this was or which “leftist allies” were
> involved, there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement.
> Calls for violence have no place in these discussions and have been
> frequently condemned — including on this list. Vague accusations of alleged
> failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard
> trope of the alt-right. It’s the main reason that red-herring-laden
> “invitations” to debate like this one are so tedious.
>
> Meanwhile, I’ll just offer this as my final response on this thread:
>
> “The current storm around trans people bears all the hallmarks of a moral
> panic. Trans people are blamed for a number of – often contradictory –
> harms. In 2017, these included corrupting children, changing the English
> language and threatening free speech, violence against women and seeking to
> both dismantle and reinforce problematic gender norms.
>
> “The “news” often turns out to be several years old, or based on serious
> misinterpretation of what somebody said. Stories frequently include factual
> inaccuracies. For example, a story about the proportion of 

Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:12 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have seen
> calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
> leftist allies involved in the same discussion)….

> 
> It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
> should be able to go unchallenged by the Left.

Without knowing which discussion this was or which “leftist allies” were 
involved, there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement. Calls 
for violence have no place in these discussions and have been frequently 
condemned — including on this list. Vague accusations of alleged failures by 
leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard trope of the 
alt-right. It’s the main reason that red-herring-laden “invitations” to debate 
like this one are so tedious.

Meanwhile, I’ll just offer this as my final response on this thread:

“The current storm around trans people bears all the hallmarks of a moral 
panic. Trans people are blamed for a number of – often contradictory – harms. 
In 2017, these included corrupting children, changing the English language and 
threatening free speech, violence against women and seeking to both dismantle 
and reinforce problematic gender norms.

“The “news” often turns out to be several years old, or based on serious 
misinterpretation of what somebody said. Stories frequently include factual 
inaccuracies. For example, a story about the proportion of trans sex offenders 
was found to be based on false statistics, as were frequent reports about the 
number of people who “detransition”, or return to identifying with the gender 
they were assigned at birth.

“This current media onslaught bears a striking resemblance to previous moral 
panics, notably the one against gay men in the 1980s. Like trans people now, 
gay men then were branded as paedophiles. Any mention of homosexuality was 
deemed to risk “turning children gay” in the same way that there’s now concern 
that young people will be “turned trans” if they learn about gender diversity.” 

http://theconversation.com/a-trans-review-of-2017-the-year-of-transgender-moral-panic-89272

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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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Apologies if this appears twice.

It is not as simple as you suggest. No gender critical feminist I have ever
discussed this issue with sees sex as a simple XX/XY chromosome issue. They
realise that what results in someone being 'male' or 'female' is a
combination of chromosomes, hormones etc. And they don't appreciate being
called transphobic for simply wanting these issues to be discussed rather
than shut down (per Daniel's post above, "I can say that their arguments
tend to be exactly the same as racists and homophobes use against gay
and/or black men as predators. And they are as little open to actual facts
as racists and homophobes tend to be. Contradict them politely once or
twice and they’ll start going on about transwomen as ”rapists in drag”. ’m
not one for censorship, but if people get warned and thrown off this list
for racist, misogynistic or homophobic posting, why then are repeated
transphobic posting permitted?"

This characterisation could not be further from my experience of
discussions on this issue. I have personally never encountered
gender-critical people using arguments "exactly the same as racists and
homophobes use against gay and/or black men as predators." I have seen
calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
leftist allies involved in the same discussion). Left allies of the trans
activist community tend to just pretend some of their allies don't hold and
express such views.

It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. It concerns me when I see
trans-activists (whether trans or allies I wouldn't know) being cheered for
saying lesbians just need a bit of their "ladydick", or that a lesbian's
refusal to have sex with a "lesbian" with a penis makes that "lesbian with
a penis" a victim of a transphobic "cotton ceiling". In any other context,
where the speaker didn't identify as a woman, statements like that would be
seen for the misogynist and anti-lesbian homophobia they are. Meanwhile,
all trans people are subsumed into a monolith. There are trans people who
see their situation as a "disorder" that they have to struggle with every
day of their lives. There are MtF trans people who refuse to use the term
trans woman to avoid being associated with the current trans activism. And
of course there are trans people who see gender self ID as the way forward.

It is a mistake for the Left to ride in, deciding the discussion is over
before it has really begun, and declaring anyone with a different view to
be in need of a warning and a possible ban.

If you think the long struggle undertaken by women to have safe spaces was
a mistake or is an outdated concept, if you think the existence of women's
toilet and changing facilities where women and girls can undress without
being watched by or exposed to self identifying women with male genitalia
(and possibly opportunistic men taking advantage of the relaxed
guidelines/taboos around such spaces) are an anachronism, then make that
case and engage in a discussion.

It would be an interesting opportunity for a debate that didn't degenerate
rapidly into name calling and calls for banning.

John

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 10:37 PM Philip Ferguson via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

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>
>
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/10/26/new-lesbian-gay-bisexual-alliance-formed-in-london/
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-- 
The law locks up the man or woman
Who steals the goose from off the common
But leaves the greater villain loose
Who steals the common from the goose
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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[John Edmundson via Marxism]

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It is not as simple as you suggest. No gender critical feminist I have ever
discussed this issue with sees sex as a simple XX/XY chromosome issue. They
realise that what results in someone being 'male' or 'female' is a
combination of chromosomes, hormones etc. And they don't appreciate being
called transphobic for simply wanting these issues to be discussed rather
than shut down (per Daniel's post above, "I can say that their arguments
tend to be exactly the same as racists and homophobes use against gay
and/or black men as predators. And they are as little open to actual facts
as racists and homophobes tend to be. Contradict them politely once or
twice and they’ll start going on about transwomen as ”rapists in drag”. ’m
not one for censorship, but if people get warned and thrown off this list
for racist, misogynistic or homophobic posting, why then are repeated
transphobic posting permitted?"

This characterisation could not be further from my experience of
discussions on this issue. I have personally never encountered
gender-critical people using arguments "exactly the same as racists and
homophobes use against gay and/or black men as predators." I have seen
calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the
leftist allies involved in the same discussion). Left allies of the trans
activist community tend to just pretend some of their allies don't hold and
express such views.

It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered
should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. It concerns me when I see
trans-activists (whether trans or allies I wouldn't know) being cheered for
saying lesbians just need a bit of their "ladydick", or that a lesbian's
refusal to have sex with a "lesbian" with a penis makes that "lesbian with
a penis" a victim of a transphobic "cotton ceiling". In any other context,
where the speaker didn't identify as a woman, statements like that would be
seen for the misogynist and anti-lesbian homophobia they are. Meanwhile,
all trans people are subsumed into a monolith. There are trans people who
see their situation as a "disorder" that they have to struggle with every
day of their lives. There are MtF trans people who refuse to use the term
trans woman to avoid being associated with the current trans activism. And
of course there are trans people who see gender self ID as the way forward.

It is a mistake for the Left to ride in, deciding the discussion is over
before it has really begun, and declaring anyone with a different view to
be in need of a warning and a possible ban.

If you think the long struggle undertaken by women to have safe spaces was
a mistake or is an outdated concept, if you think the existence of women's
toilet and changing facilities where women and girls can undress without
being watched by or exposed to self identifying women with male genitalia
(and possibly opportunistic men taking advantage of the relaxed
guidelines/taboos around such spaces) are an anachronism, then make that
case and engage in a discussion.

It would be an interesting opportunity for a debate that didn't degenerate
rapidly into name calling and calls for banning.

John

On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 5:15 AM MM via Marxism 
wrote:

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> *
>
> > On Oct 26, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Me  wrote:
> >
> > Biology is such a terf hey?
> >
> > https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033 <
> https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033>
>
> Ah yes: A random Twitter thread as authoritative source. Why didn’t I
> think of that? Actually, he sounds a lot like those “edgy
> anti-imperialists” explaining how criticizing US involvement in “regime
> change” in Syria doesn’t make them supporters of Assad. The fact that their
> premise is self-servingly wrong is irrelevant to them.
>
> Meanwhile, this seems better (as does the piece Daniel Lindvall posted):
>
> “Some sexual scientists have tried to chart the many different expressions
> of sex/gender identity, putting together formal models of what we know
> about variations in sexual identity (man, woman, something else), gendered
> identity (masculine, feminine, androgynous, something else; note: the term
> “gender identity” is often conflated with sexual identity, here I use
> gendered identity to refer to the degree a person is typically masculine
> and/or feminine for 

Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Oct 26, 2019, at 11:41 AM, Me  wrote:
> 
> Biology is such a terf hey? 
> 
> https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033 
> 

Ah yes: A random Twitter thread as authoritative source. Why didn’t I think of 
that? Actually, he sounds a lot like those “edgy anti-imperialists” explaining 
how criticizing US involvement in “regime change” in Syria doesn’t make them 
supporters of Assad. The fact that their premise is self-servingly wrong is 
irrelevant to them.

Meanwhile, this seems better (as does the piece Daniel Lindvall posted):

“Some sexual scientists have tried to chart the many different expressions of 
sex/gender identity, putting together formal models of what we know about 
variations in sexual identity (man, woman, something else), gendered identity 
(masculine, feminine, androgynous, something else; note: the term “gender 
identity” is often conflated with sexual identity, here I use gendered identity 
to refer to the degree a person is typically masculine and/or feminine for 
their society), sexual orientation (androphilic [finding male bodies erotic], 
gynephilic [finding female bodies erotic], bisexual, asexual, something else), 
mating orientation (monogamous, polyamorous, open, something else), and other 
important forms of sexual diversity.

“Leading sexual scientist Sari van Anders (2015) recently made an excellent 
attempt at integrating several of these sex/gender diversities here. She 
distinguishes between sex (including male and female as dimensions), gender/sex 
(man and woman as dimensions), and gender (masculine and feminine as 
dimensions), emphasizing variation in the intensity of each sexual 
configuration. The esteemed Anne Fausto-Sterling (2012) has argued for using 
dynamical systems theory to understand varying influences on sex/gender 
diversity (see also Fausto-Sterling et al., 2012). She emphasizes the John 
Money's classic 5-sexes approach of Genetic Chromosomal Sex (XX, XY, 45X, 
47XXY, XYY, etc.), Fetal Gonadal Sex (ovaries versus testicles and sex as 
subsequent gamete production), Fetal Hormonal Sex (in utero exposure to 
testosterone and subsequent organizational effects), Internal Reproductive Sex 
(uterus/cervix/fallopian tubes vs. vas deferens/prostate/epididymis), and 
External Genital Sex (vagina/clitoris vs. scrotum/penis). Sexological legend 
Milton Diamond also has a compelling model of sex/gender diversity he calls 
Biased-Interaction Theory (see Diamond, 2006). Sexual scientists have learned a 
lot about sex/gender identities, but really we’ve just begun to understand the 
causes underlying the myriad ways humans express their sexual selves. There is 
much work to be done.” 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-personalities/201605/sex-and-gender-are-dials-not-switches

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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[Me via Marxism]

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On 27/10/19 2:27 am, MM wrote:

Biology is such a terf hey? 

https://twitter.com/lecanardnoir/status/1129742277134508033 

> Rather, you are confusing the order of language with the order of being: the 
> fact that “sex" and “gender" can be definitively distinguished in language 
> does not mean they are definitively distinct in the world. Not even genitalia 
> are “binary”: No genitalia are “typical” in any sense that implies 
> normativity; anyone with any reasonable familiarity with evolutionary biology 
> or taxonomy would understand that. Unfortunately, too few do.
>
> The political right is busy these days trying to shore up that distinction, 
> not unlike the ways in which ruling elites and their bigoted dupes in the 
> past have insisted on substituting differences in language for variation in 
> reality (e.g., “white / black” for race, vs. diverse phenotypes among human 
> population groups). Thankfully, the people you dismiss as having a “sexual 
> development disorder” increasingly have a voice. Maybe you should write to 
> the author of the piece I linked and ask if they feel like they have a 
> “disorder.”
>
> It seems to me just about the last thing the world needs right now is a 
> reactionary network of self-identified LGB folks helping out with the right’s 
> dirty work.




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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Oct 26, 2019, at 10:55 AM, Me via Marxism  
> wrote:
> 
> You are confusing biological sex which is indeed binary with gender
> which is a made up thing. People born with atypical genitalia have a
> biological sexual development disorder. They are not a third sex.

Rather, you are confusing the order of language with the order of being: the 
fact that “sex" and “gender" can be definitively distinguished in language does 
not mean they are definitively distinct in the world. Not even genitalia are 
“binary”: No genitalia are “typical” in any sense that implies normativity; 
anyone with any reasonable familiarity with evolutionary biology or taxonomy 
would understand that. Unfortunately, too few do.

The political right is busy these days trying to shore up that distinction, not 
unlike the ways in which ruling elites and their bigoted dupes in the past have 
insisted on substituting differences in language for variation in reality 
(e.g., “white / black” for race, vs. diverse phenotypes among human population 
groups). Thankfully, the people you dismiss as having a “sexual development 
disorder” increasingly have a voice. Maybe you should write to the author of 
the piece I linked and ask if they feel like they have a “disorder.”

It seems to me just about the last thing the world needs right now is a 
reactionary network of self-identified LGB folks helping out with the right’s 
dirty work.
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Re: [Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[MM via Marxism]

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> On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:36 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism 
>  wrote:
> 
> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/10/26/new-lesbian-gay-bisexual-alliance-formed-in-london/
>  
> 
From this page:

“Sex is a binary.” 

Also from this page:

"The new group aims to be an umbrella organisation that supports… accurate 
biological definitions of sex.” 

From reality:

“I was born with both male and female genitalia. In India, the Supreme Court 
has recognized people like me as a third gender, known as kinnars: We are 
neither male nor female. I was taunted and humiliated for being myself. I was 
about 14 when I decided to leave home and find my own community.” 

https://www.ozy.com/true-story/i-was-afraid-to-reveal-my-gender-to-my-boyfriend-and-i-lost-him/93384/

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[Marxism] New Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual Alliance founded in London

[Philip Ferguson via Marxism]

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https://rdln.wordpress.com/2019/10/26/new-lesbian-gay-bisexual-alliance-formed-in-london/
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