Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > An oversimplification as to the outcome of the SDS evolution. The > disintegration of the SDS in 1969, in addition to giving birth to the > Weatherman also gave birth to the Maoism in the U.S. - the RCP coming out of > the disintegration and the PLP augmenting its numbers out of the split off, > not directly being absorbed in American society but first through a "turn to > industry," a decade before the SWP followed in their footsteps. > > Historically, what the SDS actually did was all over the map. If memory > serves they led only one national anti-war mobilization, in 1965, and then > took a turn toward fighting poverty. > > Am not sure how big a role SDS played in the student demonstrations that > shook the country in 1969-1970. By that time, the organization had largely > gone through its supernova phase. The SMC and others probably played a > bigger role than the SDS detritus that hadn't gone underground or into > industry. > > Having said all of that, no one could have predicted at the time of the Port > Huron statement the ultimate destination of the SDS, much less its many > twists and turns. I think the same holds true with the current version of > the DSA. The organization is five years into its current phase and likely is > going to face its biggest challenge` at the conclusion of the Sanders > candidacy, regardless of the outcome. Hard to see its growth at the pace we > have seen, but that doesn't mean there won't be splits or new organizations > arising from whatever happens. SR > > > > On February 3, 2020 at 9:03 AM Louis Proyect wrote: > > > > > This is the SDS that had a lot in common with the DSA, especially > > through its connections to the League for Industrial Democracy. By 1967, > > that SDS no longer existed. Between 1967 and 1970, it was the SDS I was > > referring to. It led campus protests that shook the USA to its > > foundations. When those protests did not end the war, they resorted to > > urban guerrilla warfare but only a small fraction of SDS took part in > > that. Most SDSers became absorbed into American society and probably > > evolved into the liberals of the 1964 SDS variety. Bill Ayers is the > > most well-known of them. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/3/20 11:20 AM, srobin21 wrote: In any event, for all their ultra leftism, electorally the SDSers were abject supporters of mainstream liberalism. Hayden et al "went part of the way with LBJ" in 1964 and supported RFK in 1968. Somehow support for Sanders does not compare unfavorably to that. SR This is the SDS that had a lot in common with the DSA, especially through its connections to the League for Industrial Democracy. By 1967, that SDS no longer existed. Between 1967 and 1970, it was the SDS I was referring to. It led campus protests that shook the USA to its foundations. When those protests did not end the war, they resorted to urban guerrilla warfare but only a small fraction of SDS took part in that. Most SDSers became absorbed into American society and probably evolved into the liberals of the 1964 SDS variety. Bill Ayers is the most well-known of them. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * If despising capitalist politics is ultra left, sign me up. On Mon, Feb 3, 2020, 11:27 AM srobin21 via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Sounds like nostalgia for good old fashioned ultra leftism. May be > "radicalism" should mean forming armed cells, robbing banks, going > underground etc. At least that is what it meant for part of the SDS.In any > event, for all their ultra leftism, electorally the SDSers were abject > supporters of mainstream liberalism. Hayden et al "went part of the way > with LBJ" in 1964 and supported RFK in 1968. Somehow support for Sanders > does not compare unfavorably to that.SR > Original message From: Louis Proyect What does it mean to > be a radical? If it is making speeches about the "billionaire class", then > it is a different kind of radicalization that young people underwent when I > was young. These were people who joined SDS. Right? They occupied buildings > on campus, not passing out literature to help DP candidates get elected. > That's what galls me about the confusion Jacobin and the DSA have sown. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/markalause%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sounds like nostalgia for good old fashioned ultra leftism. May be "radicalism" should mean forming armed cells, robbing banks, going underground etc. At least that is what it meant for part of the SDS.In any event, for all their ultra leftism, electorally the SDSers were abject supporters of mainstream liberalism. Hayden et al "went part of the way with LBJ" in 1964 and supported RFK in 1968. Somehow support for Sanders does not compare unfavorably to that.SR Original message From: Louis Proyect What does it mean to be a radical? If it is making speeches about the "billionaire class", then it is a different kind of radicalization that young people underwent when I was young. These were people who joined SDS. Right? They occupied buildings on campus, not passing out literature to help DP candidates get elected. That's what galls me about the confusion Jacobin and the DSA have sown. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/2/20 10:32 PM, John Reimann via Marxism wrote: There are some very good reasons not to support the Democrats, but the idea that what we're facing in Trump is essentially similar to what we faced with Goldwater, Reagan and Bush is not one of them. I wouldn't say that Trump is like any of these previous politicians but he certainly reflects the new Republicanism that has been brewing for a decade or so, maybe more. I don't know how many comrades listen to rightwing talk radio but that's where Trump comes from. I used to listen to this guy Steve Deace who had a show on a NYC AM station that was syndicated around the country. Deace spent more time attacking RINOS than Democrats, the term for Republicans in name only. Deace was a Christian fundamentalist of the kind that Chris Hedges wrote about in a book titled "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America". I don't agree with the term fascist but his research is invaluable. All this stuff that we label as "Trumpism" did not come from him. It came from the Tea Party right, the bible thumpers, the nativists, the Putin admirers who were there all along. He gave them a voice. In the process of becoming the dominant voice of the Republican Party, they have intimidated the old guard at first and then transformed them into True Believers. But as Mark Lause brought out, what difference does it make for the left? The Republican Party has radicalized and you at the same time have people like ex-ISOer Alan Maass writing things like this: "For the next year at least — possibly one or two or three or more, but maybe less — a left-wing radicalization will continue to take the form of a surge of democratic socialist politics, with a particular focus on elections within the bounds of the Democratic Party, even as those bounds are strained." Are you fucking kidding me? A particular focus on elections within the bounds of the DP has something to do with "radicalization"? What does it mean to be a radical? If it is making speeches about the "billionaire class", then it is a different kind of radicalization that young people underwent when I was young. These were people who joined SDS. Right? They occupied buildings on campus, not passing out literature to help DP candidates get elected. That's what galls me about the confusion Jacobin and the DSA have sown. Words like "socialism" and "radicalization" are being redefined to mean the left-liberalism of a wing of the DP. But that's okay. A vacuum is being created that genuine socialists and radicals will fill. My only hope is that they will not try to fill it with the bogus "Leninism" of my misspent youth. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do not understand why people, such as many in the CPUSA, keep suggesting that Warren is "anti-capitalist". Her record shows different as someone who supported every military budget and war. She is just a lying politician - and with her long years of activism as a reactionary in Oklahoma, the CPUSA crowd is now supportive of bourgeois feminists, as militarists such as Hillary Clinton and now Elizabeth Warren. Any corporate democrat will do for them? And what is outrageous when there is an actual social democrat as Bernie Sanders, the CPUSA crowd instead of doing all they can to help Sanders, are suggesting: "there is no real political differences between Warren and Sanders" - that is b.s. And for those sectarians on this list, who remind me of what Lenin wrote about such, who sat round in comfort in the Paris cafe's, complaining that there should be nothing done, until they approve of the political awareness of those in motion. There are actually many people in motion supporting the Bernie Sanders Campaign and not waiting for "approval" from those sitting and doing not much else than that! Reality, that millions are supporting a Bernie Sanders for U. S. President Campaign and raising Class Awareness. It does not fit political wishes of some who would like to be leading themselves, as "so knowing all" - and you can ignore or pretend - but it will not stop or change the events ahead. You should instead as myself, get involved in the largest election campaign promoting socialist views ever seen in our lifetimes. Feel The Bern and stop abstaining, to only help the opposition to a president Sanders. Who benefits from that? Not the world's working class - and that seems why you should be supporting Bernie NOW and we can see if obstacles and successes ahead might get you even more involved and recognize why this is not "usual times and just another usual U. S. election". . That's why I support Bernie's promise to support whoever the DEMS nominate --- and will figtht like a tiger for him (or Warren) against ruling class betrayal if one of them surprises us and gets the nomination ... . _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael, I said we had been warned about fascism every four years, and you responded only that you didn't warm us about fascism. I take you on your word and congratulate you for your relative level-headedness. But I still heard it. Still, in your relative level-headedness, three of the elections during which you acknowledge to have raised this cry ended in a triumph for what you called the fascists. Reagan won in 1984, Bush in 2004, and Trump in 2016. Right? All deplorable and to be fought as hard and effectively as we can. But not fascism. We saw more political repression at other points in our lives and the racial demagoguery is especially discouraging, but let's not delude ourselves about Trump's predecessors. Which gets us back to the question of our effectiveness. You assert that this requires supporting whoever the Democrats use to keep Sanders or Warren from the nomination, but you can't really seperate Reagan's successes from Democratic subservience to his nonsensical trickle down creed, or even as he utterly ignored the law in Iran -Contra. And Dubya's dangerous war-mongering was so dangerous first and foremost because he faced virtually no opposition from the other party. Democrats happily circulated through the news shows, pimping his WMD lies, spreading the paranoia about germ warfare, funding his invasions, and building whole new dimensions of the surveillance state in his service. And before he ran for president as a Republican, Trump spent more time as a Democrat than as a Republican. Yes, Trump is different and the most detestable president in our lifetime. But we got him, in large part, by not building a real opposition. Easier to pass the buck to the Democrats, even though we know what they have done ... and have no basis for thinking they will do otherwise. It is precisely because the stakes are so high that we have to start trying something different. Finding something that will work. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I was responding to a (rhetorical) question which implied that in EVERY Presidential elections "we" have been "warned" about fascism --- I do believe that there were "warnings" about fascism in those elections but definitely not the majority of them beginnig in 1960 --- certainly many people felt Goldwater was a fascist (and a trigger-happy warmonger) --- but actually, with 20-20 hindsight, except for "W" in 2004 (with his "signing statements" and the war in Iraq) those fears were probably groundless until 2016 --- Yes -- TRUMP is different --- but there is only a SEGMENT of the ruling class that is against him -- plenty are ready to publicly support him if the "wrong" Democrat gets nominated --- after all, he gave them deregulation, tax cuts and a right wing Judiciary to maintain the current version of neo-liberalism without worry that an angry electorate will vote them out Plenty of industrialists and bankers made their peace with Hitler -- just as their Italian counterparts made peace with Mussolini To the extent that the ruling class is split, we have a chance for a coalition broad enough to beat Trump That's why I support Bernie's promise to support whoever the DEMS nominate --- and will figtht like a tiger for him (or Warren) against ruling class betrayal if one of them surprises us and gets the nomination ... _ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Party's Over: Bernie?s Last Dance With the Dems
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael Meeropol writes: "we worried about fascism with Goldwater, with Reagan in 1984, with "W" in 2004 and with Trump in 2016" There are some very good reasons not to support the Democrats, but the idea that what we're facing in Trump is essentially similar to what we faced with Goldwater, Reagan and Bush is not one of them. I don't think we're facing fascism, but what we are facing is fundamentally different from anything I've seen in my lifetime, and I suspect in the lifetime of everybody else on this list (or in the US, for that matter). Even the top capitalist strategists recognize it. Max Boot, lifetime conservative Republican strategist, just wrote a column in which he denounces not only Trump but the entire Republican Party, which he thinks is past salvation. Neoconservative John Bolton has clearly turned against Trump. John Kelly is already on that same road. A former head of the CIA (I forget his name) has denounced Trump as being guilty of "betrayal". We've never seen anything like this before. Meanwhile, the far right racists and xenophobes - some outright fascists but many others too - are stirred up and confident in a way that I've never seen. And the attack on the independent (from the government, not the capitalist class) media is unprecedented. No, I don't have illusions in the NY Times, but they are different from RT or some such. Yes, as an article in *Foreign Affairs* said, "this time it's different". John Reimann -- *“In politics, abstract terms conceal treachery.” *from "The Black Jacobins" by C. L. R. James Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com also on Facebook _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
