Re: [Marxism] Palestine and apartheid | Richard Seymour on Patreon
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Interesting as always with Richard. But again, as always, his imaginary is drawn to the intractable, the complex that cannot be solved. At times it seems to me that Ricard's thought is a series of long variations on the theme of "pessimism of the intellect." The reference to biopolitics & Foucault is not incidental. There are echoes here of Nietzschean thought of the Will to Power as the defining aspect of the human, and so there is no ground for a resolution or hope for a Utopian rupture. I think he also underestimates the historical role of and need for Arab labour. It is true that since the 1990s the Israelis have substituted "foreign" workers (to the level of about 77k) for Palestinians. But the point is that Israel has always been dependent on Arab leader complicity in the Zionist project and Arab help within Israel to make the Israeli state viable. I also know from my experience of growing up as a Catholic in Northern Ireland, and Richard would agree with this, that a state which declares a growing section of its own population as "the enemy" is permanently unstable. Richard does make the point that "Israel depends far too much on international support". That is true, and it is why the BDS movement is such a threat. My own critique, and one I fear that Richard would not recognize, is that Israel's true weakness is that it is not a moral undertaking. It is an ensemble of what Bhaskar would have called power2 master-slave relationships. Israel rests on a layer of dirty business - torture, arrest without trial, spying, bribery, murder, and regular burst of slaughter. Most states of course also depend on a layer of artisans who specialize in dirty business. But in Israel the proponents of dirty business are in charge out there in the open and increasingly they are a scandal to all our humanity. Moreover, the social media meant that this morning I could see the dirty work with a consciousness forming immediacy that the likes of Murdoch and the Mainstream Media can no longer control. In my youth the idealists at the university boasted were proud of their work in the kibbutzim. No one does that now. No one. The Israeli ambassador to the UK, Regev recently advised the Labour Friends of Israel that they should highlight the misogyny and homophobia of the opponents of Israe. That was a desperate attempt to hold on to the notion that there is something intrinsically good about Israel. The Zionist myth that the redemption and sanctification of Israel would lead to the redemption and sanctification of all humanity, has never seemed so sadly bizarre. All around this troubled world where the Alt-right gather they fly the flag of Israel. We are now confronted with the realtity that scumbags, who are deeply anti-semitic, support Israel. They are all the way with Netanyahu, as they march mouthing their filthy chant "Jews will not replace us". There is no surer sign of the inevitable failure of the Zionist project. My critique then rests on the proposition that there is a fundamental moral impulse in the human and no one can violate that imperative for long without suffering a breakdown. That also applies at the level of the state. And to make a final return to Richard's theme, it is here that one finds the true similarity between South Africa and the Israeli state. comradely Gary On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 12:22 AM Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > > https://www.patreon.com/posts/palestine-and-21081569?utm_medium=post_notification_email > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary.maclennan1%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine, electoral politics and the DSA | SocialistWorker.org
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Mentioned in the article: https://ijr.com/2018/08/1119016-ocasio-cortez-john-mccain/ ^^^I missed that one. Wow, she really did sell out very quickly. Amith R. Gupta _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine movement in solidarity with migrants
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Meh. 7/3 is the same day as a massive revival of the Gaza Return March by women's groups in Gaza, which they didn't even bother to mention. They pretty much just e-mailed everyone telling them to support things that other organizations have already organized, plus their ridiculously overpriced conference. I don't disagree with the other actions, but they're hardly adding any value, and indeed they may even be undermining the solidarity by failing to actually lend support to things that are happening in Palestine which might have created some actual cross-border solidarity rather than just internet sloganeering. USCPR primarily exists on the internet and among a small cult in DC. Their primary organizer can't stop talking shit about everyone else in the movement on Twitter. It is embarrassing and also makes you wonder what they will actually do with the money they pick up from the conference, assuming anyone attends. They don't have any relevance. Can't say that other groups are necessarily doing much better though, but if empty sloganeering from people who only show up when these other causes are in the media is something to be supported then most pro-Palestine NGOs with a Facebook page will suffice. I recall they did similar things with Black Lives Matter despite getting rid of the only members who were actually working with the black community over some internal spat (I believe it was the Alison Weir debacle, but it was a while ago so I don't remember). The reality is that most of us who are involved in the Palestinian cause that work with the immigrant community don't feel the need to proselytize about it. Almost everyone I know from, for example, the New Sanctuary Coalition which actually sends volunteers to accompany people to ICE meetings and organizes a weekly legal clinic to help people navigate the immigration process, is also supportive of Palestine. My 2 cents. Amith R. Gupta _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine work (Was - Is white supremacy a threat?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It is true that RSCC imploded, however NYCSJP is a different group. It is basically the SJPs of the CUNY colleges. I find their work to be highly effective. Also, the question wasn't about who is perfect, but rather who is doing "better" organizing. If Americans Knew is a media advocacy org. I think they do great work, but they are not a community organization or something. On Friday, May 27, 2016, Andrew Pollack via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Regarding who's doing good Palestine work, I think the terrain is more > complex than Amith presents. > The Maoists referred to by him were from the Revolutionary Student > Coordinating Committee, which has since imploded - but not before it spent > several years dividing the city's SJP chapters based on who agreed with its > abstract "revolutionary" rhetoric. And their community work was just > parachuting into neighborhoods to spout some "serve the people" rhetoric > and wave their huge red flag. > Meanwhile Al-Awda, JVP, Adalah, the grannies, the Palestinian community and > more all turn out regularly - and in force when there's an attack. In the > latter case there are also often coalitions uniting all these forces. For > instance, the big march across the bridge two years ago was organized by an > ad hoc coalition whose core activists, many of them Occupy veterans, were > mostly not in any of the above groups. > I should add that in the last couple years the Palestine solidarity > movement here (and nationally) is as divided over Syria as anywhere. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > -- - Amith _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine work (Was - Is white supremacy a threat?)
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Regarding who's doing good Palestine work, I think the terrain is more complex than Amith presents. The Maoists referred to by him were from the Revolutionary Student Coordinating Committee, which has since imploded - but not before it spent several years dividing the city's SJP chapters based on who agreed with its abstract "revolutionary" rhetoric. And their community work was just parachuting into neighborhoods to spout some "serve the people" rhetoric and wave their huge red flag. Meanwhile Al-Awda, JVP, Adalah, the grannies, the Palestinian community and more all turn out regularly - and in force when there's an attack. In the latter case there are also often coalitions uniting all these forces. For instance, the big march across the bridge two years ago was organized by an ad hoc coalition whose core activists, many of them Occupy veterans, were mostly not in any of the above groups. I should add that in the last couple years the Palestine solidarity movement here (and nationally) is as divided over Syria as anywhere. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * So what does that tell us about "leftists"? As far as I am concerned a leftist group that doesn't take a principled stance on Palestine -- which includes quite a few groups that won't shut up about their middle-of-the-road stances about Zionism -- are as useful as "leftist" groups that think white supremacy is matter of the past or that the like. I'm nonetheless looking forward to Palestine solidarity activism taking off in the coming years as per Mr. Netanyahu's insanity. - Amith On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > While a handful more leftists have caved under the pressure of their own > imperialist regimes - most lately the move of the Barnesites to > left-Zionism, before them the AWL in Britain - the Palestinian cause is > gaining greater support from people around the world. > > As against the imperialist two-staters and the new left-Zionist > 'two-staters', Israeli policy on the West Bank is making the one-state > alternative more relevant than ever: > > https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/is-there-a-two-state-solution-to-israel-palestinian-conflict-2/ > > For a campaign of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle: > > https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/for-a-campaign-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian-struggle/ > > Phil > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Joe C wrote: Well, now. *You *sent us all an e-mail - one of those one-liners Lou hates, no less - consisting in whole of that claim, of which I'm still not convinced. Actually, I contributed rather more to the discussion on Palestine solidarity work, Your position seems to be that fundraising for the PFLP could hypothetically be illegal, seeing as how the New Zealand government totally isn't soft on it, despite it taking a hands-off approach to a public fundraising campaign. No, it's not could hypothetically be illegal. It's that it is not legal in NZ to raise funds for the PFLP. Around the same time, some student members of the WP were suspended from Victoria University in Wellington for burning a NZ flag. There's nothing in the Victoria University regulations that bans students from burning a flag on campus and if you used your method of google searching for such a regulation that named that specific activity and that specific flag, you wouldn't find one. The university used its health and safety regulations to do the suspensions. So the *reality* is that it is not permissible to burn a NZ flag at Victoria University. At the level of the state, things are much more intense. Your google searching won't find a It's Illegal to Raise Funds in NZ for the PFLP Law. You scholastically draw the conclusion that therefore it's perfectly legal to raise funds for the PFLP in NZ. This is not just weirdly scholastic, it's also incredibly naive. Moreover, it is extraordinary to say the NZ government took a hands-off approach. But you can always test your theory Joe. Make some public statements that you're coming to NZ to travel around the country to raise funds for the PFLP. Then show up here and see how 'hands off' the NZ imperialist state is in relation to you. As for the approach overall, I wouldn't make it my business to discourage it, but it isn't mine. Palestine's greatest need from us is political solidarity in the form of pressure on Zionist-enabling governments and institutions, not cash remittances. Here, you have conflated all the social and political forces which exist in Palestine under a single label 'Palestine' as if raising funds for the PFLP is in the same category as NGOs, backed by imperialist funding, sponsoring various projects which have a pacifying effect on the struggle. Also, you've used the 'us' word without differentiating between the different elements of 'us'. For an *anti-capitalist* in the imperialist centres the question of solidarity is quite different from a human rights activist or someone who feels solidarity with the Palestinian people but isn't anti-capitalist. My view is that the job of anti-capitalists is NOT to do what liberals are already doing anyway, but to have a distinctive anti-capitalist perspective on all issues, including the struggle for Palestinian liberation. So that means being *part* of the wider movement that is in solidarity (in the broadest sense of that term) with the Palestinians, but not restricting ourselves to that. If we're anti-capitalists, then that implies doing anti-capitalist work as well, for instance promoting working class internationalism. Some on the left think that it is not possible to do both, but I think it is eminently possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. The WP in NZ was always part of the wider movement against the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, but as well as participating in the broader coalitions we operated through explicitly anti-imperialist formations *within that context*. I've often thought that foreign money of all types is the second-biggest problem with that place, for myriad reasons. One of the lesser ones is that it often distracts well-intervened supporters from more crucial tasks at home. Were I a Kiwi, I'd much rather have cut a check to a national campaign to keep that damn embassy closed. The term 'foreign money' is meaningless. There is a *qualitative* difference between anti-capitalists in the imperialist world showing concrete material solidarity to the most advanced sections of the Palestinian movement and western imperialist agencies funding projects designed to house-train the Palestinian movement. One of the more crucial tasks at home - for *anti-capitalist* supporters of the Palestinian cause - is promoting working class consciousness, a key part of which is internationalism. Getting workers to donate to a liberation movement (whether it's in Palestine or Ireland or Vietnam or South Africa during the apartheid period) helps that process of politicisation along. What your argument amounts to is a compartmentalisation of politics. People become, on the
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * That was us he was complaining about. Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Joseph Catron jncat...@gmail.com wrote: And here's some New Zealand Zionist leader whining that fundraising for the PFLP is perfectly legal there: http://www.jwire.com.au/new-zealand-group-fundraising-for-pflp -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * By what law? The New Zealand government has only outright banned Palestinian Islamic Jihad, along with the armed (not political) wings of Fatah and Hamas: http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/designated-entities-20-07-2015.pdf On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: It's also illegal in NZ. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * And here's some New Zealand Zionist leader whining that fundraising for the PFLP is perfectly legal there: http://www.jwire.com.au/new-zealand-group-fundraising-for-pflp -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Yes, I'm obviously aware. But you said it was also illegal in New Zealand to raise funds for the PFLP. Everything else I've found says otherwise. Where is this body of law you are purportedly violating? On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: That was us he was complaining about. -- Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Did they try to prosecute you? In the US there was a massive counter-terrorism case called the Holy Land 5. 5 men in jail for basically the rest of their lifetimes for giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians that passed through the hands of bureaucrats that technically worked under Hamas. I am all for breaking the law as an act of civil disobedience, but sometimes the costs are simply not worth it, especially if it triggers repression against the rest of the community. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: It's also illegal in NZ. So? Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services deemed for the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support laws. I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to hold leftist, anarchist, and Marxist views seemed to have done it the other way around and that even many who did appear to share my feelings about Palestine often did so in a contingent, asterisk-laden fashion. Nonetheless, I could not avoid the blatant pitfalls and failures of liberals as well as Libertarians to engage in structural analysis leading them to hold all sorts of bizarre and misguided views. I do not think there is a purpose, at least right now, in lionizing the left. The left is filled with all sorts of reactionary sentiment. I think it is better to focus on the issues, including Palestine, and push people to become more conscious of the contradictions through issue-based organizing. Marxism, in my opinion, is a guide, not a restriction. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with Louis that it's good if various semi-establishment figures criticise various actions of the *Israeli government - it opens up political space, makes it easier for people to raise issues of solidarity with the Palestinians. Often, though, the anti-capitalist left tries to hook up with anyone and everyone who appears to be criticising what we're criticising. When it comes to the anti-capitalist left, we need to develop initiatives centred on solidarity and where the issues are taken to the working class and colleges (community colleges and universities alike), and we need to do it in a way that advances the class consciousness of workers where we are. In the Anti-Capitalist Alliance/Workers Party in NZ, we prioritised Palestine solidarity and we initiated a public campaign to raise funds for the PFLP. We made t-shirts and Leila Khaled gave us her signature to use on them. We raised several thousand dollars for the PFLP, as a concrete act of solidarity and as a way of challenging the 'terrorist' designation that NZ governments - Labour and National alike (and they're very, very alike!) had put on the PFLP. As anti-capitalists I think we need to run a two-track approach in relation to Palestine. One is overall support for the Palestinian right to self-determination and the other is solidarity with the most progressive forces within that struggle; that happens to be the hard-pressed PFLP. Whatever criticisms anyone might have on them, they have stuck to their guns in unbelievably difficult circumstances and deserve material support. For a campaign of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/for-a-campaign-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian-struggle/ Is there a two-state solution?: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/is-there-a-two-state-solution-to-israel-palestinian-conflict-2/ Phil _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at:
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It's also illegal in NZ. So? Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services deemed for the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support laws. I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to hold leftist, anarchist, and Marxist views seemed to have done it the other way around and that even many who did appear to share my feelings about Palestine often did so in a contingent, asterisk-laden fashion. Nonetheless, I could not avoid the blatant pitfalls and failures of liberals as well as Libertarians to engage in structural analysis leading them to hold all sorts of bizarre and misguided views. I do not think there is a purpose, at least right now, in lionizing the left. The left is filled with all sorts of reactionary sentiment. I think it is better to focus on the issues, including Palestine, and push people to become more conscious of the contradictions through issue-based organizing. Marxism, in my opinion, is a guide, not a restriction. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with Louis that it's good if various semi-establishment figures criticise various actions of the *Israeli government - it opens up political space, makes it easier for people to raise issues of solidarity with the Palestinians. Often, though, the anti-capitalist left tries to hook up with anyone and everyone who appears to be criticising what we're criticising. When it comes to the anti-capitalist left, we need to develop initiatives centred on solidarity and where the issues are taken to the working class and colleges (community colleges and universities alike), and we need to do it in a way that advances the class consciousness of workers where we are. In the Anti-Capitalist Alliance/Workers Party in NZ, we prioritised Palestine solidarity and we initiated a public campaign to raise funds for the PFLP. We made t-shirts and Leila Khaled gave us her signature to use on them. We raised several thousand dollars for the PFLP, as a concrete act of solidarity and as a way of challenging the 'terrorist' designation that NZ governments - Labour and National alike (and they're very, very alike!) had put on the PFLP. As anti-capitalists I think we need to run a two-track approach in relation to Palestine. One is overall support for the Palestinian right to self-determination and the other is solidarity with the most progressive forces within that struggle; that happens to be the hard-pressed PFLP. Whatever criticisms anyone might have on them, they have stuck to their guns in unbelievably difficult circumstances and deserve material support. For a campaign of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/for-a-campaign-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian-struggle/ Is there a two-state solution?: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/is-there-a-two-state-solution-to-israel-palestinian-conflict-2/ Phil _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Hi, I agree with you, but as you pointed out, it requires proper organizing and benefits that outweigh the risks. Both are lacking in the United States. I remember some activists suggesting something along the lines of what you guys did. The idea was that everyone would send a single band-aid to InterPal, a British NGO that was blacklisted by the US Treasury Department. I think it fizzled. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: I understand how difficult it is in the USA. I think it's important to choose battles cleverly. No point in fighting a battle you can't win and where the consequences are horrendous. In the States things would need to be especially assessed very clinically and lawyers etc lined up in advance. It might well be decided that it wasn't a good idea. But I find a lot of the left these days automatically rules things out because they are illegal. It's like in NZ, union leaders say No, no, we can't have a strike - it's illegal. (Strikes here are illegal outside a very, very limited time-frame around contract negotiations; solidarity strikes and political strikes are illegal. But, sometime, somewhere, some group of workers are going to have to say, We don't care, and go on strike, otherwise we'll just get pushed further and further back. Personally, I think it should be some group of highly-respected white collar/skilled workers that the state would find it hard to do over.) In NZ, we have possibly the least political and most apathetic population in the entire world. But people also don't like the state coming down on people and the state itself is quite careful. We had three Christians attack one of the big balloon-domes at a spybase and bring it down. They got caught and charged, but public opinion was such they pretty much got let off. Of course, with Marxists it would be different. The state was certainly fully aware that the money was raised - it was done in public and a press statement was put out when the first thousand dollars was sent - but the state never went for the organisation or the individuals who co-ordinated the ACA/WP campaign. They may have decided it wasn't worth giving the organisation the publicity and I think if they had've gone for the organisation or any individuals there would have been lawyers lining up to defend comrades for free. In the end I think the state simply decided it wasn't worth them going after ACA/WP over it. One of the problems with a lot of the left in the English-speaking world is that it has an extraordinary respect for capitalist laws. In the Third World, revolutionaries break the law all the time and think nothing of it. Same in a lot of First World countries outside the English-speaking world. How do they ever expect to overthrow capitalism - after all, that would be against the law!!! (And, let's be clear, I'm not advocating idiotic/provocateur-like Black Bloc actions. I'm simply *suggesting* that the anti-capitalist left needs to *think* about *how* to *cleverly* challenge state prerogatives and laws.) Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:57 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: Did they try to prosecute you? In the US there was a massive counter-terrorism case called the Holy Land 5. 5 men in jail for basically the rest of their lifetimes for giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians that passed through the hands of bureaucrats that technically worked under Hamas. I am all for breaking the law as an act of civil disobedience, but sometimes the costs are simply not worth it, especially if it triggers repression against the rest of the community. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: It's also illegal in NZ. So? Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services deemed for the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support laws. I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to hold leftist, anarchist, and
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services deemed for the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support laws. I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to hold leftist, anarchist, and Marxist views seemed to have done it the other way around and that even many who did appear to share my feelings about Palestine often did so in a contingent, asterisk-laden fashion. Nonetheless, I could not avoid the blatant pitfalls and failures of liberals as well as Libertarians to engage in structural analysis leading them to hold all sorts of bizarre and misguided views. I do not think there is a purpose, at least right now, in lionizing the left. The left is filled with all sorts of reactionary sentiment. I think it is better to focus on the issues, including Palestine, and push people to become more conscious of the contradictions through issue-based organizing. Marxism, in my opinion, is a guide, not a restriction. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu wrote: POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree with Louis that it's good if various semi-establishment figures criticise various actions of the *Israeli government - it opens up political space, makes it easier for people to raise issues of solidarity with the Palestinians. Often, though, the anti-capitalist left tries to hook up with anyone and everyone who appears to be criticising what we're criticising. When it comes to the anti-capitalist left, we need to develop initiatives centred on solidarity and where the issues are taken to the working class and colleges (community colleges and universities alike), and we need to do it in a way that advances the class consciousness of workers where we are. In the Anti-Capitalist Alliance/Workers Party in NZ, we prioritised Palestine solidarity and we initiated a public campaign to raise funds for the PFLP. We made t-shirts and Leila Khaled gave us her signature to use on them. We raised several thousand dollars for the PFLP, as a concrete act of solidarity and as a way of challenging the 'terrorist' designation that NZ governments - Labour and National alike (and they're very, very alike!) had put on the PFLP. As anti-capitalists I think we need to run a two-track approach in relation to Palestine. One is overall support for the Palestinian right to self-determination and the other is solidarity with the most progressive forces within that struggle; that happens to be the hard-pressed PFLP. Whatever criticisms anyone might have on them, they have stuck to their guns in unbelievably difficult circumstances and deserve material support. For a campaign of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/for-a-campaign-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian-struggle/ Is there a two-state solution?: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/is-there-a-two-state-solution-to-israel-palestinian-conflict-2/ Phil _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Palestine solidarity movement
POSTING RULES NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I understand how difficult it is in the USA. I think it's important to choose battles cleverly. No point in fighting a battle you can't win and where the consequences are horrendous. In the States things would need to be especially assessed very clinically and lawyers etc lined up in advance. It might well be decided that it wasn't a good idea. But I find a lot of the left these days automatically rules things out because they are illegal. It's like in NZ, union leaders say No, no, we can't have a strike - it's illegal. (Strikes here are illegal outside a very, very limited time-frame around contract negotiations; solidarity strikes and political strikes are illegal. But, sometime, somewhere, some group of workers are going to have to say, We don't care, and go on strike, otherwise we'll just get pushed further and further back. Personally, I think it should be some group of highly-respected white collar/skilled workers that the state would find it hard to do over.) In NZ, we have possibly the least political and most apathetic population in the entire world. But people also don't like the state coming down on people and the state itself is quite careful. We had three Christians attack one of the big balloon-domes at a spybase and bring it down. They got caught and charged, but public opinion was such they pretty much got let off. Of course, with Marxists it would be different. The state was certainly fully aware that the money was raised - it was done in public and a press statement was put out when the first thousand dollars was sent - but the state never went for the organisation or the individuals who co-ordinated the ACA/WP campaign. They may have decided it wasn't worth giving the organisation the publicity and I think if they had've gone for the organisation or any individuals there would have been lawyers lining up to defend comrades for free. In the end I think the state simply decided it wasn't worth them going after ACA/WP over it. One of the problems with a lot of the left in the English-speaking world is that it has an extraordinary respect for capitalist laws. In the Third World, revolutionaries break the law all the time and think nothing of it. Same in a lot of First World countries outside the English-speaking world. How do they ever expect to overthrow capitalism - after all, that would be against the law!!! (And, let's be clear, I'm not advocating idiotic/provocateur-like Black Bloc actions. I'm simply *suggesting* that the anti-capitalist left needs to *think* about *how* to *cleverly* challenge state prerogatives and laws.) Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:57 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: Did they try to prosecute you? In the US there was a massive counter-terrorism case called the Holy Land 5. 5 men in jail for basically the rest of their lifetimes for giving humanitarian aid to Palestinians that passed through the hands of bureaucrats that technically worked under Hamas. I am all for breaking the law as an act of civil disobedience, but sometimes the costs are simply not worth it, especially if it triggers repression against the rest of the community. - Amith On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Philip Ferguson philipfergus...@gmail.com wrote: It's also illegal in NZ. So? Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM, A.R. G amithrgu...@gmail.com wrote: It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services deemed for the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support laws. I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to hold leftist, anarchist, and Marxist views seemed to have done it the other way around and that even many who did appear to share my feelings about Palestine often did so in a contingent, asterisk-laden fashion. Nonetheless, I could not avoid the blatant pitfalls and failures of liberals as well as Libertarians to engage in structural analysis leading them to hold all sorts of bizarre and misguided views. I do not think there is a purpose, at least right now, in lionizing the left. The left is filled with all sorts of reactionary sentiment. I think
