Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
IMO the auto industry is close to being totally government mandated, That's why all cars look so much alike. We'll never give another Colin Chapman (Lotus) or Ferdinand Porsche (VW and Porsche) and many others the latitude to innovate. Everything must be cookie cutter and yet they still must face almost 10 examples going through destructive testing. Envision 10 Bugatti's Veyron's or Lamborghini's being destroyed! (it must be hard to watch if you love cars.) Yet, if they are to be sold in the US that's what happens. And depending on the amount of yearly changes they may have to endure those tests yearly. Sadly, the US is no longer the 'car buying capital of the world' it once was (back in 2009). No longer can some place like Ca. dictate safety and emission regulations for the whole country. I suspect the US wull see fewer and fewer choices when it comes to new cars. Of course, even being Number 2 has its perks - but China will make most of the rules or lack of them. Of course, the effect of the USA's deep debt will continue to become known as the years pass. Whether its a $17+ Trillion debt (or $80+ Trillion as some say) it's a bill our kids and grandkids will pay their whole lives. Talk about being born into poverty! And we lose more options with each passing day. Car buying stats available at http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/may2009/gb20090518_095449.htm Sincerely, Larry On 3/4/2014 11:07 PM, G Mann wrote: On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Mao, That may be so now, but... I recall presentations by the Rutan brothers at flight test symposia back in the 1970s; they explained that they could not afford to build and sell their designs because of legal/liability issues. They could (and did) build prototypes and sell plans for some of the most innovative new aircraft concepts ever. But, except for electronics and evolutionary tweaks, a new Cessna 172 is pretty much the same as one sold in the late 50s. There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. On the larger issue of innovation today, I submit the issue is motivation: no reward for success and no penalty for failure, in our society. In the words of the Strawberry Alarm Clock, Who cares what games we choose? Little to win, but nothing to lose. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 7:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I would also thank our cookie cutter education system for lack of innovation and lack of invention in anything today. We are cookie cutter educated in all things, including legal system training. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
OTOH, try and make a crappy car now and it won't sell, thanks to the internet and rapid dissemination of information among consumers. This has really leveled the playing field. I would argue that 99 percent of new cars are quite awesome in terms of reliability and technological advancements. I'm just too cheap to buy one... Andrew Who drives a 1983 335k 300TD and has a newer 295K 1985 300TD in the garage as a back up. On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Larry T l02tur...@comcast.net wrote: IMO the auto industry is close to being totally government mandated, That's why all cars look so much alike. We'll never give another Colin Chapman (Lotus) or Ferdinand Porsche (VW and Porsche) and many others the latitude to innovate. Everything must be cookie cutter and yet they still must face almost 10 examples going through destructive testing. Envision 10 Bugatti's Veyron's or Lamborghini's being destroyed! (it must be hard to watch if you love cars.) Yet, if they are to be sold in the US that's what happens. And depending on the amount of yearly changes they may have to endure those tests yearly. Sadly, the US is no longer the 'car buying capital of the world' it once was (back in 2009). No longer can some place like Ca. dictate safety and emission regulations for the whole country. I suspect the US wull see fewer and fewer choices when it comes to new cars. Of course, even being Number 2 has its perks - but China will make most of the rules or lack of them. Of course, the effect of the USA's deep debt will continue to become known as the years pass. Whether its a $17+ Trillion debt (or $80+ Trillion as some say) it's a bill our kids and grandkids will pay their whole lives. Talk about being born into poverty! And we lose more options with each passing day. Car buying stats available at http://www.businessweek.com/ globalbiz/content/may2009/gb20090518_095449.htm Sincerely, Larry On 3/4/2014 11:07 PM, G Mann wrote: On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Mao, That may be so now, but... I recall presentations by the Rutan brothers at flight test symposia back in the 1970s; they explained that they could not afford to build and sell their designs because of legal/liability issues. They could (and did) build prototypes and sell plans for some of the most innovative new aircraft concepts ever. But, except for electronics and evolutionary tweaks, a new Cessna 172 is pretty much the same as one sold in the late 50s. There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. On the larger issue of innovation today, I submit the issue is motivation: no reward for success and no penalty for failure, in our society. In the words of the Strawberry Alarm Clock, Who cares what games we choose? Little to win, but nothing to lose. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 7:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
On 04/03/2014 6:09 PM, Mountain Man wrote: Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I would also thank our cookie cutter education system for lack of innovation and lack of invention in anything today. We are cookie cutter educated in all things, including legal system training. mao ___ Are you certain you want innovation in aviation? Boeing was trying to do that with the 777 and has encountered issues that could be dangerous. The old tried and true systems have stood the test ot fime and flying has been pretty safe for a long while. Randy ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Randy wrote: Are you certain you want innovation in aviation? Boeing was trying to do that with the 777 and has encountered issues that could be dangerous. 777 is not innovation as much as it is refinement. Yes, innovation in aviation would be interesting. Think of something other than larger size engine and traditional airfoil. What? - I don't know, but that would be innovation and not refinement. Plastic is merely a materials issue but the 777 still remains a large airfoil with huge engines not much different from the failed Smithsonian design issues 100 years ago when Wright brothers innovated with better application of ideas to get off the ground earlier than all the Smithsonian Institution's failed experiments of flight. Before the efforts of the Wright brothers concepts of flight were rather narrow but the brothers took the known concepts and innovated and refinements are known today. With what we know today, why does the blackbird remain the titleholder for world's speed? Or the Spruce Goose which is another refinement but an interesting actual example of refinement. But we don't have Jetsons type of flight today which might prove to be mere refinement instead of innovation but I would guess Jetsons would be innovation not refinement. We cannot confuse innovation and invention with refinement of materials or design issues. Tesla experiments were mostly successful but the Tesla electricity distribution issues were buried instead of left open for dissemination. That is not freedom - that is stifling oversight. We know freedom and liberty in name only today. We do not know freedom or liberty. We are the frog in the boiling pot and we don't even know it. We love our head buried in sand - nice and warm. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:53:48 -0600 Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: And then there's tort environs... still a total hindrance to innovation today. And money. Orvill Wilbur seemed to be able to do things on somewhat shoestring. Not too much since those halcyon days has been innovated or invented. Tesla was shut down and that might have been a huge innovation against the unsightly Westinghouse distribution systems necessary today. Actually, Tesla developed the technology that was in the products George Westinghouse marketed. Westinghouse and Tesla worked very closely on that. After some years, George came to Nikola and asked if the $1/horsepower royalty on electric motors that was owed to Nikola could be waived. Nikola waived it, giving up I-don't-know-how-much-but-quite-a-bit of royalties. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I would also thank our cookie cutter education system for lack of innovation and lack of invention in anything today. We are cookie cutter educated in all things, including legal system training. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Mao, That may be so now, but... I recall presentations by the Rutan brothers at flight test symposia back in the 1970s; they explained that they could not afford to build and sell their designs because of legal/liability issues. They could (and did) build prototypes and sell plans for some of the most innovative new aircraft concepts ever. But, except for electronics and evolutionary tweaks, a new Cessna 172 is pretty much the same as one sold in the late 50s. There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. On the larger issue of innovation today, I submit the issue is motivation: no reward for success and no penalty for failure, in our society. In the words of the Strawberry Alarm Clock, Who cares what games we choose? Little to win, but nothing to lose. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 7:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I would also thank our cookie cutter education system for lack of innovation and lack of invention in anything today. We are cookie cutter educated in all things, including legal system training. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:48 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Mao, That may be so now, but... I recall presentations by the Rutan brothers at flight test symposia back in the 1970s; they explained that they could not afford to build and sell their designs because of legal/liability issues. They could (and did) build prototypes and sell plans for some of the most innovative new aircraft concepts ever. But, except for electronics and evolutionary tweaks, a new Cessna 172 is pretty much the same as one sold in the late 50s. There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. On the larger issue of innovation today, I submit the issue is motivation: no reward for success and no penalty for failure, in our society. In the words of the Strawberry Alarm Clock, Who cares what games we choose? Little to win, but nothing to lose. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 7:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme Scott wrote: You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. I would also thank our cookie cutter education system for lack of innovation and lack of invention in anything today. We are cookie cutter educated in all things, including legal system training. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
The mindset that fosters this system is pervasive: Society is responsible for me but I am responsible for nothing. I can only conclude that most Americans would be very happy in The Matrix. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:08 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Scott wrote: There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. Terribly huge issues - yes. The moon landing was innovation based in late 1940's (...probably...) but using gumption of the space race of 1960 JFK and them dern rooskies. A bit of technology perhaps but probably most of the design used 1890's slide rule technology (...or whenever slide rules were developed...). And then there's tort environs... still a total hindrance to innovation today. And money. Orvill Wilbur seemed to be able to do things on somewhat shoestring. Not too much since those halcyon days has been innovated or invented. Tesla was shut down and that might have been a huge innovation against the unsightly Westinghouse distribution systems necessary today. It seems that education is the largest cookie cutter destructive tool today. Education is doing nothing for the next generation regarding learning or innovation and invention. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Scott wrote: The mindset that fosters this system is pervasive: Society is responsible for me but I am responsible for nothing. I gotta see Matrix again - thanks for the reminder. We need to hear JFK more. Ask not what your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country. Ask not what society can do for me but ask what I can do for society. The modern bs line is a rising tide lifts all boats and that merely fosters dependency rather than innovation inventiveness. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
It's worth noting that there has been no shortage of innovation in US military aircraft, even now (e.g., F-22, IOC 2005, and F-35, IOC 2010). I don't accept that we are no longer capable of innovation, only that we're too lazy and unmotivated. In fact, military aircraft engineers probably innovate too much (which is responsible for some of the delays and cost overruns). But when a design may be front-line inventory for 30 years or [much] more you want to make it as capable as possible. Examples: B-52 (IOC 1955), C/KC 135s (IOC 1957), C130 (IOC 1958), T-38 (IOC 1961), F-15 (IOC 1975), F-16 (IOC 1980), KC-10 (IOC 1982), etc. all still front-line inventory. Ref: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2010/May%202 010/0510weapons.pdf -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:08 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
A somewhat long but interesting rest of the story on the moon landing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sso4HtvJswfeature=youtu.be -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mountain Man Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:54 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme Scott wrote: There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. Terribly huge issues - yes. The moon landing was innovation based in late 1940's (...probably...) but using gumption of the space race of 1960 JFK and them dern rooskies. A bit of technology perhaps but probably most of the design used 1890's slide rule technology (...or whenever slide rules were developed...). And then there's tort environs... still a total hindrance to innovation today. ... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
American engineers can build about anything if you give them a blank check; re: the Moon and Mars landings. Gerry On 3/5/2014 12:28 AM, Scott Ritchey wrote: It's worth noting that there has been no shortage of innovation in US military aircraft, even now (e.g., F-22, IOC 2005, and F-35, IOC 2010). I don't accept that we are no longer capable of innovation, only that we're too lazy and unmotivated. In fact, military aircraft engineers probably innovate too much (which is responsible for some of the delays and cost overruns). But when a design may be front-line inventory for 30 years or [much] more you want to make it as capable as possible. Examples: B-52 (IOC 1955), C/KC 135s (IOC 1957), C130 (IOC 1958), T-38 (IOC 1961), F-15 (IOC 1975), F-16 (IOC 1980), KC-10 (IOC 1982), etc. all still front-line inventory. Ref: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2010/May%202 010/0510weapons.pdf -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of G Mann Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:08 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme On that same thread.. one of the most advanced aircraft to be produced, the Beach Starship, an all composite canard design was a design strongly influenced by Bert Rutan. Beach jumped through all kinds of hoops with the FAA to get certification for composite construction airframe, yet found it impossible to establish the absolute finite life or number of landing cycles for the airframe. Beach only sold something like 50 of the design. People who owned them absolutely loved them. One of my very good aviation friends was chief pilot for a company that used them as exec aircraft, and has loads of hours flying them. However. The decision was made by the company that now owns Beachcraft to BUY THEM ALL BACK and store them rather than face the possibility of product liability as the airframes aged. Product liability lawyers 10 Aviation 0 . That issue is the overriding issue with Cessna, Piper, and every other manufacturer. The Cessna 172, 4 place airplane with fixed landing gear, now sells for nearly $400,000 new. Before lawsuit became the answer to stupid piloting that same airplane sold new for something like $45,000. The same spillover has happened in Medicine [no sole practitioner GP Doctors that I can find.. all big HMO to pay the malpractice insurance]. Car companies.. same issue. Buy aspirin... sealed in 3 layers of tamper proof packaging and then a child proof cap.. why.. ??? product liability... Kids toys.. Clothing.. Everything has taken the hit.. Buy a beer without a product warning lately? cigar? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Scott wrote: There was no shortage of US innovation during most of the period since 1960 (we went to the moon, for example). But, given the US tort environment, there is no business case for taking the risk to build a really-new general aviation aircraft, only proven designs. What about Boings plastic airliner? That seemed pretty risky. Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Somewhere, way back in this thread, [which is now in direct competition for special standing of an oil thread], the original poster stated his desire to become a flyer as a profession. I submit the following as an example of a life in aviation. My own pursuit of the grand mistress of aviation has not been so unlike this one... however, it is full of ex-wives, luggage lost in countries that no longer exist, loads carried to places and events better left undisclosed, and wages never paid by companies lost in time and poor management. All-in-all, it makes an interesting read below. http://thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/index.html Question: How do you pick a professional pilot out of a crowd? Answer: Look for the Big watch and the Big ego. Grant... On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Karl Wittnebel kdwittne...@yahoo.comwrote: I have a friend who flies for Qantas. Apparently Qantas has been hiring pilots from NZ for less money, putting them in a Qantas uniform, and having them fly regional Qantas planes. This has become a point of contention in pilot contract negotiations. the Qantas pilots contend that the sterling safety record of the airline is due in no small part to the training Qantas puts their pilots through, and that it is disingenuous to allow non Qantas-trained pilots to wear a Qantas pilot uniform flying a Qantas plane. the idea is Qantas plane, Qantas pilot. there are probably other things like contracted work hour restrictions that these non Qantas pilots can avoid, making them cheaper, but potentially less safe. Anyway I was reminded of all this watching the delta video. not sure how it is turning out down under with Qantas, but obviously this Norwegian guy is just taking the whole concept of pilot labor outsourcing to its logical extreme. Personally I'll pay a bit more to keep the well trained, well fed, well rested guys in the cockpit. there are just too many things that can go wrong, like hitting the wall in San Francisco, or the rookie and high altitude stall on air France 443. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note® 3, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Hendrik and Fay heni...@gmail.com Date:03/02/2014 7:29 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme I have not fully looked into it but Qantas is bleating about their competitors getting assistance from their governments, how much truth there is to that I do not know. Hendrik who gets a little assistance from the government On 03/03/14 03:05, G Mann wrote: In nature, predators always take the weak from the herd first. In open competition, only the strong win. In government imposed diversity that natural balance is skewed. By government mandate, the banks that failed were saved, Solandra got loans, government employees who don't produce are retained and promoted By Congressional edict, a certain portion of the work force must be hired and retained based on some physical attribute other than job skill. We are then taxed to servitude to pay for all of this social engineering under the guise of it's for the public good. And we wonder why the world is out of balance? In my considered opine, it equates to castrating your self because your neighbor has to many children. Not logical to natures rule of survival. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Grant wrote: All-in-all, it makes an interesting read below. My son flies this guy's 35. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Aviation is a small world, when you count the players, not the passengers. Something less than .03% of the population of USA hold pilots licenses, far less than that hold commercial licenses, even less hold ATP. The laws of chance say contact on some level is likely. Small world huh Mao? Grant... On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: Grant wrote: All-in-all, it makes an interesting read below. My son flies this guy's 35. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Grant wrote: Aviation is a small world... Small world huh Mao? And big players/designers. Where are the innovators like Lear today? I think insistence on standard models and standard modes has decreased innovation and invention. Yep, that is success. Cookie cutter people. Cookie cutter actions. Cookie cutter attitudes. Cookie cutter religion. Too bad. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
You can thank our legal system for the lack of innovation in aviation today. -Original Message- From: Mountain Man Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 9:46 PM And big players/designers. Where are the innovators like Lear today? I think insistence on standard models and standard modes has decreased innovation and invention. Yep, that is success. Cookie cutter people. Cookie cutter actions. Cookie cutter attitudes. Cookie cutter religion. Too bad. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
One of my buddies is retired airline pilot, a very low-key guy. Not sure he wears a watch since he is retired. --R (sent from my miniPad) On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:19 AM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: Question: How do you pick a professional pilot out of a crowd? Answer: Look for the Big watch and the Big ego. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
In nature, predators always take the weak from the herd first. In open competition, only the strong win. In government imposed diversity that natural balance is skewed. By government mandate, the banks that failed were saved, Solandra got loans, government employees who don't produce are retained and promoted By Congressional edict, a certain portion of the work force must be hired and retained based on some physical attribute other than job skill. We are then taxed to servitude to pay for all of this social engineering under the guise of it's for the public good. And we wonder why the world is out of balance? In my considered opine, it equates to castrating your self because your neighbor has to many children. Not logical to natures rule of survival. Grant... On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: HF wrote: Qantas is in the red and gonna lay off a pile of workers, cut routes, sell planes, etc Maybe partly due to having a lot of union workers on very good rates. Read the NYT article Jon put up about the way airlines are forming today - very sad. But with wages and costs and shareholder demands, etc this is the logical end of things, literally the end. Things cannot continue as they have in the past. While the immediate present seems to be struggling but fine, it really does not sound to be stable in many many ways in many places. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
F*ck nature and the survival of the fittest. We are better than that. On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 11:35 AM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: In nature, predators always take the weak from the herd first. In open competition, only the strong win. In government imposed diversity that natural balance is skewed. By government mandate, the banks that failed were saved, Solandra got loans, government employees who don't produce are retained and promoted By Congressional edict, a certain portion of the work force must be hired and retained based on some physical attribute other than job skill. We are then taxed to servitude to pay for all of this social engineering under the guise of it's for the public good. And we wonder why the world is out of balance? In my considered opine, it equates to castrating your self because your neighbor has to many children. Not logical to natures rule of survival. Grant... On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: HF wrote: Qantas is in the red and gonna lay off a pile of workers, cut routes, sell planes, etc Maybe partly due to having a lot of union workers on very good rates. Read the NYT article Jon put up about the way airlines are forming today - very sad. But with wages and costs and shareholder demands, etc this is the logical end of things, literally the end. Things cannot continue as they have in the past. While the immediate present seems to be struggling but fine, it really does not sound to be stable in many many ways in many places. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Yup - I didn't think you were old enough to have flown Connies (I certainly am not, though I have seen them in the wild) - and I never heard of one with turbo props. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: OoopsI said ConstellationI meant Saratoga. -- OK Don There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
P3 Orions (if that's what he is referring to) are still in service. I worked with a couple of P3 groups that were stationed in the Pacific Northwest and Aleutians as submarine sniffers in the northern Pacific and Bering Sea. Dan On Mar 2, 2014, at 2:32 PM, OK Don wrote: Yup - I didn't think you were old enough to have flown Connies (I certainly am not, though I have seen them in the wild) - and I never heard of one with turbo props. On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: OoopsI said ConstellationI meant Saratoga. -- OK Don There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: OoopsI said ConstellationI meant Saratoga. OK wrote: Yup - I didn't think you were old enough to have flown Connies. He didn't say he _flew_ a Constellation - but flew _to_ one. Although I once did a radar approach to a fly by of the USS Constellation. So apparently he actually did a fly by of the USS Saratoga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Saratoga_%28CV-60%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constellation_%28CV-64%29 -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
I have not fully looked into it but Qantas is bleating about their competitors getting assistance from their governments, how much truth there is to that I do not know. Hendrik who gets a little assistance from the government On 03/03/14 03:05, G Mann wrote: In nature, predators always take the weak from the herd first. In open competition, only the strong win. In government imposed diversity that natural balance is skewed. By government mandate, the banks that failed were saved, Solandra got loans, government employees who don't produce are retained and promoted By Congressional edict, a certain portion of the work force must be hired and retained based on some physical attribute other than job skill. We are then taxed to servitude to pay for all of this social engineering under the guise of it's for the public good. And we wonder why the world is out of balance? In my considered opine, it equates to castrating your self because your neighbor has to many children. Not logical to natures rule of survival. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
I have a friend who flies for Qantas. Apparently Qantas has been hiring pilots from NZ for less money, putting them in a Qantas uniform, and having them fly regional Qantas planes. This has become a point of contention in pilot contract negotiations. the Qantas pilots contend that the sterling safety record of the airline is due in no small part to the training Qantas puts their pilots through, and that it is disingenuous to allow non Qantas-trained pilots to wear a Qantas pilot uniform flying a Qantas plane. the idea is Qantas plane, Qantas pilot. there are probably other things like contracted work hour restrictions that these non Qantas pilots can avoid, making them cheaper, but potentially less safe. Anyway I was reminded of all this watching the delta video. not sure how it is turning out down under with Qantas, but obviously this Norwegian guy is just taking the whole concept of pilot labor outsourcing to its logical extreme. Personally I'll pay a bit more to keep the well trained, well fed, well rested guys in the cockpit. there are just too many things that can go wrong, like hitting the wall in San Francisco, or the rookie and high altitude stall on air France 443. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note® 3, an ATT 4G LTE smartphone Original message From: Hendrik and Fay heni...@gmail.com Date:03/02/2014 7:29 PM (GMT-08:00) To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme I have not fully looked into it but Qantas is bleating about their competitors getting assistance from their governments, how much truth there is to that I do not know. Hendrik who gets a little assistance from the government On 03/03/14 03:05, G Mann wrote: In nature, predators always take the weak from the herd first. In open competition, only the strong win. In government imposed diversity that natural balance is skewed. By government mandate, the banks that failed were saved, Solandra got loans, government employees who don't produce are retained and promoted By Congressional edict, a certain portion of the work force must be hired and retained based on some physical attribute other than job skill. We are then taxed to servitude to pay for all of this social engineering under the guise of it's for the public good. And we wonder why the world is out of balance? In my considered opine, it equates to castrating your self because your neighbor has to many children. Not logical to natures rule of survival. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Mountain Man wrote: Ya think? - Do you really think they respond to constituents? I suspect that is not realistic. Fedgov's definition of constituent hasn't included voters in my lifetime. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Mountain Man wrote: Ya think? - Do you really think they respond to constituents? I suspect that is not realistic. Fedgov's definition of constituent hasn't included voters in my lifetime. Mitch. Constituent includes AFLxCIO, Goobermnt motors, GE and other major fed contractors, all goobermnt employee/bureaucrats (gotta circle the wagons), chinee goobrmnt, other goobermnts etc, but voter does not compute. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
I should have known better….Oh well. On Mar 1, 2014, at 4:53 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Mountain Man wrote: Ya think? - Do you really think they respond to constituents? I suspect that is not realistic. Fedgov's definition of constituent hasn't included voters in my lifetime. Mitch. Constituent includes AFLxCIO, Goobermnt motors, GE and other major fed contractors, all goobermnt employee/bureaucrats (gotta circle the wagons), chinee goobrmnt, other goobermnts etc, but voter does not compute. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Qantas is in the red and gonna lay off a pile of workers, cut routes, sell planes, etc Maybe partly due to having a lot of union workers on very good rates. Anyway it's all rosy as long as the politicians have a job. A well paid job with lots of perks. Hendrik who is not in a union On 01/03/14 01:50, arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: I couldn't understand the captain due to an echo, but I do remember reading about a Norwegian airline that plans to offer fares much cheaper than usual. His operation will be out of Ireland for some reason IIRC. The writer of the article was of the opinion that the Norwegian would fail since airline fares are already priced at minimums. I would assume that the captain is pointing out the damage such an airline would do to Deltas business? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: I should have known betterOh well. Spill the beans, please. Don't just drive-by comment - please? I'm interested to hear diverse opinions. I believe our lack of diversity in waaay too many things in culture today is castrating many things that could happen. We have diversity in name only but not in reality. We seem to be stuck in 'stupid' mode as a result. Are things really going along swimmingly? Are things as rosey as they seemed 30 years ago? Can our style of life and diversity continue as it has in the past without repurcussion? Seriously. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
HF wrote: Qantas is in the red and gonna lay off a pile of workers, cut routes, sell planes, etc Maybe partly due to having a lot of union workers on very good rates. Read the NYT article Jon put up about the way airlines are forming today - very sad. But with wages and costs and shareholder demands, etc this is the logical end of things, literally the end. Things cannot continue as they have in the past. While the immediate present seems to be struggling but fine, it really does not sound to be stable in many many ways in many places. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Speaking of flying…I’m sure this video will spark some comments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj9_jt_5jHYfeature=youtu.be ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
I think he was thinking more in terms of what such a scheme would do the hundreds of thousands of US citizens who are employed by the US air transportation industry. On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:20 AM, arche...@embarqmail.com wrote: I couldn't understand the captain due to an echo, but I do remember reading about a Norwegian airline that plans to offer fares much cheaper than usual. His operation will be out of Ireland for some reason IIRC. The writer of the article was of the opinion that the Norwegian would fail since airline fares are already priced at minimums. I would assume that the captain is pointing out the damage such an airline would do to Deltas business? Gerry On 2/28/2014 9:44 AM, Jon Agne wrote: Speaking of flying…I’m sure this video will spark some comments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj9_jt_5jHYfeature=youtu.be ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
I couldn't understand the captain due to an echo, but I do remember reading about a Norwegian airline that plans to offer fares much cheaper than usual. His operation will be out of Ireland for some reason IIRC. The writer of the article was of the opinion that the Norwegian would fail since airline fares are already priced at minimums. I would assume that the captain is pointing out the damage such an airline would do to Deltas business? Gerry On 2/28/2014 9:44 AM, Jon Agne wrote: Speaking of flying…I’m sure this video will spark some comments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj9_jt_5jHYfeature=youtu.be ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: I think he was thinking more in terms of what such a scheme would do the hundreds of thousands of US citizens who are employed by the US air transportation industry. He makes it sound like Kaleb can train to be captain of 787 and commute to Singapore for work. Probable pay might be 40k. Sounds like exciting biz, Kaleb. Is this sad, Jon? - it seems sad. OTOH, this guy is pulling down 6figures due to seniority in his union, no doubt. This type of insistence on good pay and plush conditions seems to have outgrown its luster or place in world conditions. Maybe another spin he might play is to suggest his pay and pension are greater than needed and that he and many others cut their pay and pension in half to save his arena of the biz for future seniority such as Kaleb and Jon. I dunno... it all seems sad in too many ways, no? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Mao, What is it exactly that you do for a living? On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:30 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: Jon wrote: I think he was thinking more in terms of what such a scheme would do the hundreds of thousands of US citizens who are employed by the US air transportation industry. He makes it sound like Kaleb can train to be captain of 787 and commute to Singapore for work. Probable pay might be 40k. Sounds like exciting biz, Kaleb. Is this sad, Jon? - it seems sad. OTOH, this guy is pulling down 6figures due to seniority in his union, no doubt. This type of insistence on good pay and plush conditions seems to have outgrown its luster or place in world conditions. Maybe another spin he might play is to suggest his pay and pension are greater than needed and that he and many others cut their pay and pension in half to save his arena of the biz for future seniority such as Kaleb and Jon. I dunno... it all seems sad in too many ways, no? mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: What is it exactly that you do for a living? I am not alive, therefore I do nothing to live. I used to create drawings for commercial developments and wastewater reclamation and reuse systems. That type of work is dead except for new guys so this old guy steps aside in deference to the new guys who need to do life and I say to myself that time *was* good and all things *do* end, so... let it rip. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: What is it exactly that you do for a living? The more important question seems to be what a person such as yourself close to the biz might think about your seniority telling things such as this. Is this necessary? Can he solve the situation via gov't? Is the wolf gonna eat your industry? Thanks. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Mao, Yes, the WOLF just might eat the industry just as it did with the US maritime industry in the 1960’s and 70’s. The government only responds to it’s constituents, and if the constituents want a VIRTUAL airline responsible to nobody, so be it. You’ll get what you pay for. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/a-virtual-airline-a-real-crash/?_php=true_type=blogssmid=fb-share_r=0 As far as my seniority and experience go: I am an Naval Aviator with 8.5 active duty years experience flying P-3’s (L-188 Lockheed Electra for you civil types) worn further 2.5 years flying them in the reserves. I have been employed by Delta Air Lines for the past 22+ years and am rated as an international captain on the Boeing 767/757. I am 54 years old.. Any more questions? Jon PS: I’d love to teach Kaleb to fly, but my FAA flight instructor certificate expired in 1998, and besides he would not like my methods. I teach in the US Navy style. On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:45 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: Jon wrote: What is it exactly that you do for a living? The more important question seems to be what a person such as yourself close to the biz might think about your seniority telling things such as this. Is this necessary? Can he solve the situation via gov't? Is the wolf gonna eat your industry? Thanks. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:04:01 -0500 Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: PS: I’d love to teach Kaleb to fly, but my FAA flight instructor certificate expired in 1998, and besides he would not like my methods. I teach in the US Navy style. With every landing like that on a carrier? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Never landed on a carrier. I know how to fly AOA (angle-of-attack) approaches, but the P-3 was 4-engine turboprop and landed on 6000-8000 foot runways. (Although I once did a radar approach to a fly by of the USS Constellation. On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:04:01 -0500 Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: PS: I’d love to teach Kaleb to fly, but my FAA flight instructor certificate expired in 1998, and besides he would not like my methods. I teach in the US Navy style. With every landing like that on a carrier? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Craig wrote: With every landing like that on a carrier? Listen to NPR This American Life this weekend. The show was recorded on the Stennis aircraft carrier and is an interesting exposure to military life at sea on a huge 5,000 person boat. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/206/somewhere-in-the-arabian-sea mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Ooops….I said Constellation….I meant Saratoga. On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: Never landed on a carrier. I know how to fly AOA (angle-of-attack) approaches, but the P-3 was 4-engine turboprop and landed on 6000-8000 foot runways. (Although I once did a radar approach to a fly by of the USS Constellation. On Feb 28, 2014, at 10:06 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:04:01 -0500 Jon Agne jonag...@gwi.net wrote: PS: I’d love to teach Kaleb to fly, but my FAA flight instructor certificate expired in 1998, and besides he would not like my methods. I teach in the US Navy style. With every landing like that on a carrier? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: The government only responds to it's constituents, and if the constituents want a VIRTUAL airline responsible to nobody, so be it. You'll get what you pay for. Ya think? - Do you really think they respond to constituents? I suspect that is not realistic. They respond like everyone else. They respond to $$ and that leads to corruption - read The Law by Frederic Bastiat online many places written in 1840. Another concern today is the reality that we all act like wall street gamblers taking more than necessary to make it while castrating the net worth of the nation collectively in the process at the expense of the nation potentially and our progeny. Good income has always been the objective but is there a place where we can say enough is enough and let other persons earn living using the excess we forgo? - key word is living, not excess. Be realistic about excess, be realistic about living. So seniority pilots lose a bit, other execs in other industries lose a bit, workers demand less, more people work, we live as a community nation again *with* each other instead of merely me and my bank account. Waaay off topic, but... these things can kill us not unlike the Wolf coming at our airline industry like the maritime industry 60 years ago. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Norwegian Air Shuttle Scheme
Jon wrote: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/07/a-virtual-airline-a-real-crash/?_php=true_type=blogssmid=fb-share_r=0 Really sad. Then one of its planes crashed, killing the pilots and four others, and Manx2 said it wasn't an airline after all. It was resolutely earthbound, a mere ticket seller. Someone else was responsible for what happened up in the sky. Thanks. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
