Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

A supported OS that lasts five years? That would be a solution providing it 
doesn't have all the pop-ups and other distractions that Windows has.
Gerry
~~~
OK Don wrote:
> Note - they now have the LTS version:  "long-term support – which means
> five years of free security and maintenance updates, guaranteed".

> http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop
 
> On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:36 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> > Okay, thanks, I will. I tried Ubuntu years ago, but every time I got used
> > to one version they would make changes or bring on another version. Maybe
> > by now they don't change things as often as they once did.
> > Gerry
> > ~~~
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> OK Don
> 
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
> 
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
> 
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Note - they now have the LTS version:  "long-term support – which means
five years of free security and maintenance updates, guaranteed".
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop


On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 8:36 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Okay, thanks, I will. I tried Ubuntu years ago, but every time I got used
> to one version they would make changes or bring on another version. Maybe
> by now they don't change things as often as they once did.
> Gerry
> ~~~
>
>
> --
>
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

That's interesting. Thanks. I'll try it.
After Microsofts new CEO proved that people would buy Windows 10 even though it 
actively collects whatever information it wants from their computers, it seems 
like every company in Silicon Valley is doing the same. AVG, the antivirus I've 
used for years, even "announced" that it would be collecting personal 
information on its subscribers.
While I have no information I necessarily want to keep secret; I firmly believe 
in an individuals personal rights which include the right to privacy.
Gerry 

~~~
OK Don wrote:
> If it's your privacy that is at issue, and you don't do anymore than you
> listed, try TAILS:
> 
> https://tails.boum.org/
> 
> You install it on a USB drive, boot the PC on it, and there you are. All
> traces are gone when you shut it down, and none (or very few) are left in
> cyberspace.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> > Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and
> > Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
> > When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so
> > long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails,
> > searches, and reads online news.
> > Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again
> > providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the
> > same invasions of privacy.
> > Gerry
> > ~~~
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
> 
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
> 
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Okay, thanks, I will. I tried Ubuntu years ago, but every time I got used to 
one version they would make changes or bring on another version. Maybe by now 
they don't change things as often as they once did. 
Gerry
~~~
Curt Raymond wrote:
> Its super easy, get Ubuntu and be free...
> There are other distros that are super security conscious even.
> -Curt
> 
>   From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
>  Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:25 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
>
> Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
> Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux? 
> When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so long 
> and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, searches, 
> and reads online news.
> Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again 
> providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the same 
> invasions of privacy.
> Gerry
> ~~~
> Curley McLain wrote:
> > Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
> > people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 and  
> > i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el crap.  
> > Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called MacBook 
> > Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.
> > 
> > Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the family 
> > will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el crap, so it 
> > becomes a linux machine, I guess.
> > 
> > Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> > machines work.  What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > 
> 
> 
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> arche...@embarqmail.com <arche...@embarqmail.com>
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Right!  Most people do  web, email, photos and video, in that order.
This is why the majority of OS "improvements" amount to downgrades of 
the user experience.  That is why I complain about changes just because 
the programmers could make a change, not because of a good reason.  All 
the constant new interfaces on M$ products, for example, are 
detrimental, not any real enhancement.


I've used oogle drive, and it is good for collaborative efforts.  Oogle 
wants to know everything about you, worse than goobermnt, and more 
effective than goobers.  That is why I don't use oogle docs unless it is 
a collaboration.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
June 24, 2016 at 12:13 PM
99% of people do 2 things, they surf the web and read email which for 
a lot (most?) of people with Yahoo or Gmail is the same thing.
You don't even need libre office, Google drive has that all covered 
with cloud storage built in. My dad retired last year and in setting 
himself up for consulting was going to buy Microsoft Office until I 
introduced him to Google Drive. I actually like the Google word 
processor best of the options available today...

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

99% of people do 2 things, they surf the web and read email which for a lot 
(most?) of people with Yahoo or Gmail is the same thing.
You don't even need libre office, Google drive has that all covered with cloud 
storage built in. My dad retired last year and in setting himself up for 
consulting was going to buy Microsoft Office until I introduced him to Google 
Drive. I actually like the Google word processor best of the options available 
today...
-Curt

  From: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 1:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
It is easy so long as all you ever need is the builtins:  Fire fox and libre 
office.  The file manager analog to Winders explorer is not right out there 
like fire fox and libre office.  So it is clunky to find  files.  when you need 
to add some other software, it gets all bash and tarball vernacular on you.

I did manage to find files on the winders server with it.


   Curt Raymond via Mercedes  June 24, 2016 at 11:55 AM  Its mostly not true 
though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
-Curt

 From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 2:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
 
Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more people 
don't use Linux that I've seen so far.
Gerry
~




  
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Actually you can boot from a USB drive forever even. I keep a copy of Puppy 
Linux on a USB drive at my parents house so I can use their computer without 
messing up any of their settings. They use a really big desktop resolution that 
drives me crazy... When I'm done I pull the USB drive and its their computer 
again. Puppy is super lightweight and runs fast even on older hardware.
The only downside is that shutdowns are slow because the OS runs from RAM and 
everything needs to be written back to disk when you're done.
-Curt

  From: OK Don <okd...@gmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 1:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
Yes, you can boot from a USB drive and try it before installing it on the PC.
On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

Its mostly not true though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
-Curt


-- 

OK Don
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our 
people need it sorely on these accounts.” – Mark Twain"There are three kinds of 
men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The 
rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."WILL ROGERS, The 
Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers2013 F150, 18 mpg2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg1957 
C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

It is easy so long as all you ever need is the builtins:  Fire fox and 
libre office.  The file manager analog to Winders explorer is not right 
out there like fire fox and libre office.  So it is clunky to find  
files.  when you need to add some other software, it gets all bash and 
tarball vernacular on you.


I did manage to find files on the winders server with it.


Curt Raymond via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
June 24, 2016 at 11:55 AM
Its mostly not true though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
-Curt

From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more 
people don't use Linux that I've seen so far.

Gerry
~



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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

+1

Dan

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> Its mostly not true though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
> -Curt
> 
>  From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 2:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
> 
> Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more people 
> don't use Linux that I've seen so far.
> Gerry
> ~
> Curley McLain wrote:
>> The stumbling block for linux is that you either have to be all in, or 
>> you get frustrated.  By all in, I mean you have to learn all the unix 
>> command line stuff, and a whole new language.  Even though some, like 
>> ubuntu,  for instance, claim that it is all GUI, you don't really even 
>> get started before you need to do something or find something and it all 
>> becomes a foreign language, bash this and tarballs that and  whatnot, 
>> with no definitions or explanations, but you are expected to run the 
>> terminal and know the sytax.  I get through some of it, but each time so 
>> far,  ihave given up.  The other problem is that if you have Dan or 
>> Kleb's MB software, you have to run M$ hit.  Or the wife needs to use a 
>> website that only works on M$ IE.  Or it is less frustrating to just use 
>> a Mac and spend your time being productive in place of spending your 
>> time working on the stupid computer.
>> 
>> Every time I see bash in the instructions for trying to do something in 
>> linux, I figure they mean to get out the BFH and bash the stupid 
>> computer to bits.  So far, I have refrained.
>> 
>> There are linux for dummies books, but I have never bought one, i've not 
>> tried to see if the welfare bookstore has one.
>> 
>> I have made 8 or 10 serious attempts to date, starting with Red hat 5, 
>> then mandrake, then ubuntu, but each has ended in frustration.  I did 
>> get a fairly decent start with an ubunto desktop about a year ago.  I 
>> was trying to get everyone to use one, but nobody wanted to use it.  I 
>> used it some.
>> 
>> My shop computer, when I get one set up, will be ubuntu, but I will 
>> still need a winders machine to run the borescope.
>> 
>>> archer75--- via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Yes, you can boot from a USB drive and try it before installing it on the
PC.

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Its mostly not true though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
> -Curt
>
>
> --
>
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[OK Don via Mercedes]

If it's your privacy that is at issue, and you don't do anymore than you
listed, try TAILS:

https://tails.boum.org/

You install it on a USB drive, boot the PC on it, and there you are. All
traces are gone when you shut it down, and none (or very few) are left in
cyberspace.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and
> Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
> When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so
> long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails,
> searches, and reads online news.
> Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again
> providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the
> same invasions of privacy.
> Gerry
> ~~~
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
___
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Its mostly not true though. Ubuntu is super easy, try it, you'll like it.
-Curt

  From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
 Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 2:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more people 
don't use Linux that I've seen so far.
Gerry
~
Curley McLain wrote:
> The stumbling block for linux is that you either have to be all in, or 
> you get frustrated.  By all in, I mean you have to learn all the unix 
> command line stuff, and a whole new language.  Even though some, like 
> ubuntu,  for instance, claim that it is all GUI, you don't really even 
> get started before you need to do something or find something and it all 
> becomes a foreign language, bash this and tarballs that and  whatnot, 
> with no definitions or explanations, but you are expected to run the 
> terminal and know the sytax.  I get through some of it, but each time so 
> far,  ihave given up.  The other problem is that if you have Dan or 
> Kleb's MB software, you have to run M$ hit.  Or the wife needs to use a 
> website that only works on M$ IE.  Or it is less frustrating to just use 
> a Mac and spend your time being productive in place of spending your 
> time working on the stupid computer.
> 
> Every time I see bash in the instructions for trying to do something in 
> linux, I figure they mean to get out the BFH and bash the stupid 
> computer to bits.  So far, I have refrained.
> 
> There are linux for dummies books, but I have never bought one, i've not 
> tried to see if the welfare bookstore has one.
> 
> I have made 8 or 10 serious attempts to date, starting with Red hat 5, 
> then mandrake, then ubuntu, but each has ended in frustration.  I did 
> get a fairly decent start with an ubunto desktop about a year ago.  I 
> was trying to get everyone to use one, but nobody wanted to use it.  I 
> used it some.
> 
> My shop computer, when I get one set up, will be ubuntu, but I will 
> still need a winders machine to run the borescope.
> 
> > archer75--- via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > June 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM
> > Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
> > Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
> > When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so 
> > long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, 
> > searches, and reads online news.
> > Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted 
> > again providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there 
> > won't be the same invasions of privacy.
> > Gerry
> > ~~~

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Its super easy, get Ubuntu and be free...
There are other distros that are super security conscious even.
-Curt

  From: archer75--- via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: "arche...@embarqmail.com" <arche...@embarqmail.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux? 
When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so long and 
involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, searches, and 
reads online news.
Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again 
providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the same 
invasions of privacy.
Gerry
~~~
Curley McLain wrote:
> Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
> people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 and  i7 
> machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el crap.  
> Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called MacBook 
> Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.
> 
> Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the family 
> will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el crap, so it 
> becomes a linux machine, I guess.
> 
> Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> machines work.  What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[rogerhga--- via Mercedes]

Curly, 
Back in the early 90s, there was a window of opportunity to have one OS, Unix, 
but the arrogance and ego of the Unix "leaders" prevented progress. There were 
new GUIs such as Looking Glass and others that could have been used. If so, we 
wouldn't have gone through the IBM and MS messes of OSs for the past few 
decades. We could be running Unix on everything. But then we'd be missing out 
on the whole industry of McAfee, Norton, and others. It's a shame, but Unix and 
Linux flavors still cling to the command line. I grew up with the command line 
in Pascal, CP/M, and DOS flavors, but I haven't used it now in several years, 
unless a support person asks me to go there and type something in for their 
purposes. Win10 is ok with all my current PCs so I'm staying there for now. 
Best Wishes, 
Roger 
Roger Hale 
Dinnerware Classics, Inc. 
Monroe, Ga. 
770-267-0850 
www.dinnerwareclassics.com 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Ed Booher via Mercedes]

UNIX started long before a GUI was anything other than greenish text on a
grayish black screen. The primary reason that so many things need to be
done from the command line isn't just age of the OS, though. One of the
hardest driven tenants behind UNIX is "small is better." Andrew Tanenbaum
said it thus, "The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is
to make it small."

A GUI adds heap tons of complexity. To add Mercedes content, any fully UNIX
system is as reliable as an old W123, 240D with manual transmission and
crank windows. No electronics to fail, no real oddities or gotchas that
have you wondering for days where the short in the system is so in contrast
X Windows adds in about a C197 SLS AMG level of complexity. Everything is
computer controlled, the doors don't open right, and require *explosives*
in the hinges in case it is turned upside down.

Thus, most old school UNIX style developers still write very small, very
tight code that runs in a terminal window. Hell, I write command line stuff
I don't ever touch. I automate with it, write it, set it and forget about.
It goes off and does its job. If I *needed* to write a program with a GUI
interface, I'd be sunk. Especially since you don't just write GUI code
directly, usually, as that is "reinventing the wheel," you learn a GUI
framework then write all of your code against it. Which means if anyone
wants to use your program they have to install the framework that has the
underlying instructions.

I don't *need* an application to be a word processor, AND a video
production package, AND a web server, AND  you get it. I need it to be
one thing, and to do that one thing to such perfection that it is to the
exclusion of all else. Which, anyone that follows Linux right now, knows
the horror of systemd. The new initialization system that does *everything*
including pressing your dress shirts and folding them *for you.* Yeah, the
community is in an uproar right now between the new and shiny crowd and the
old school.

So, TL;DR, UNIX started at the command line and stays there because it
works.

Anyway, as far as distros go from the Linux side, look into the Debian like
systems as those are typically the ones that try to be more "Windows like"
in their usability. Debian, Ubuntu and a wonderful little distro called
Elementary OS that is trying to be the macOS of Linux.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:25 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and
> Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
> When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so
> long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails,
> searches, and reads online news.
> Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again
> providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the
> same invasions of privacy.
> Gerry
> ~~~
> Curley McLain wrote:
> > Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force
> > people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5
> and  i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el crap.
> > Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called MacBook
> > Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.
> >
> > Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the family
> > will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el crap, so it
> > becomes a linux machine, I guess.
> >
> > Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older
> > machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> >
> > ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Well put, Curly.

If someone was to ask me what flavor of Linux to try, I would definitely 
recommend Ubuntu. It has the best (in my opinion) GUI for a Linux distro and 
supports well known browsers, for instance.

If your needs are basic, you could get through Ubuntu without ever going to the 
CLI, however, deeper dives or efforts to work with various programs or software 
will probably require work in terminal.

Dan

> On Jun 24, 2016, at 2:13 AM, archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more people 
> don't use Linux that I've seen so far.
> Gerry
> ~
> Curley McLain wrote:
>> The stumbling block for linux is that you either have to be all in, or 
>> you get frustrated.  By all in, I mean you have to learn all the unix 
>> command line stuff, and a whole new language.  Even though some, like 
>> ubuntu,  for instance, claim that it is all GUI, you don't really even 
>> get started before you need to do something or find something and it all 
>> becomes a foreign language, bash this and tarballs that and  whatnot, 
>> with no definitions or explanations, but you are expected to run the 
>> terminal and know the sytax.  I get through some of it, but each time so 
>> far,  ihave given up.  The other problem is that if you have Dan or 
>> Kleb's MB software, you have to run M$ hit.  Or the wife needs to use a 
>> website that only works on M$ IE.  Or it is less frustrating to just use 
>> a Mac and spend your time being productive in place of spending your 
>> time working on the stupid computer.
>> 
>> Every time I see bash in the instructions for trying to do something in 
>> linux, I figure they mean to get out the BFH and bash the stupid 
>> computer to bits.  So far, I have refrained.
>> 
>> There are linux for dummies books, but I have never bought one, i've not 
>> tried to see if the welfare bookstore has one.
>> 
>> I have made 8 or 10 serious attempts to date, starting with Red hat 5, 
>> then mandrake, then ubuntu, but each has ended in frustration.  I did 
>> get a fairly decent start with an ubunto desktop about a year ago.  I 
>> was trying to get everyone to use one, but nobody wanted to use it.  I 
>> used it some.
>> 
>> My shop computer, when I get one set up, will be ubuntu, but I will 
>> still need a winders machine to run the borescope.
>> 
>>> archer75--- via Mercedes 
>>> June 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM
>>> Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
>>> Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
>>> When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so 
>>> long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Thanks, Curly. That's the best and simplest explanation of why more people 
don't use Linux that I've seen so far.
Gerry
~
Curley McLain wrote:
> The stumbling block for linux is that you either have to be all in, or 
> you get frustrated.  By all in, I mean you have to learn all the unix 
> command line stuff, and a whole new language.  Even though some, like 
> ubuntu,  for instance, claim that it is all GUI, you don't really even 
> get started before you need to do something or find something and it all 
> becomes a foreign language, bash this and tarballs that and  whatnot, 
> with no definitions or explanations, but you are expected to run the 
> terminal and know the sytax.  I get through some of it, but each time so 
> far,  ihave given up.  The other problem is that if you have Dan or 
> Kleb's MB software, you have to run M$ hit.  Or the wife needs to use a 
> website that only works on M$ IE.  Or it is less frustrating to just use 
> a Mac and spend your time being productive in place of spending your 
> time working on the stupid computer.
> 
> Every time I see bash in the instructions for trying to do something in 
> linux, I figure they mean to get out the BFH and bash the stupid 
> computer to bits.  So far, I have refrained.
> 
> There are linux for dummies books, but I have never bought one, i've not 
> tried to see if the welfare bookstore has one.
> 
> I have made 8 or 10 serious attempts to date, starting with Red hat 5, 
> then mandrake, then ubuntu, but each has ended in frustration.  I did 
> get a fairly decent start with an ubunto desktop about a year ago.  I 
> was trying to get everyone to use one, but nobody wanted to use it.  I 
> used it some.
> 
> My shop computer, when I get one set up, will be ubuntu, but I will 
> still need a winders machine to run the borescope.
> 
> > archer75--- via Mercedes 
> > June 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM
> > Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
> > Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
> > When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so 
> > long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, 
> > searches, and reads online news.
> > Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted 
> > again providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there 
> > won't be the same invasions of privacy.
> > Gerry
> > ~~~

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

The stumbling block for linux is that you either have to be all in, or 
you get frustrated.  By all in, I mean you have to learn all the unix 
command line stuff, and a whole new language.  Even though some, like 
ubuntu,  for instance, claim that it is all GUI, you don't really even 
get started before you need to do something or find something and it all 
becomes a foreign language, bash this and tarballs that and  whatnot, 
with no definitions or explanations, but you are expected to run the 
terminal and know the sytax.  I get through some of it, but each time so 
far,  ihave given up.  The other problem is that if you have Dan or 
Kleb's MB software, you have to run M$ hit.  Or the wife needs to use a 
website that only works on M$ IE.  Or it is less frustrating to just use 
a Mac and spend your time being productive in place of spending your 
time working on the stupid computer.


Every time I see bash in the instructions for trying to do something in 
linux, I figure they mean to get out the BFH and bash the stupid 
computer to bits.  So far, I have refrained.


There are linux for dummies books, but I have never bought one, i've not 
tried to see if the welfare bookstore has one.


I have made 8 or 10 serious attempts to date, starting with Red hat 5, 
then mandrake, then ubuntu, but each has ended in frustration.  I did 
get a fairly decent start with an ubunto desktop about a year ago.  I 
was trying to get everyone to use one, but nobody wanted to use it.  I 
used it some.


My shop computer, when I get one set up, will be ubuntu, but I will 
still need a winders machine to run the borescope.



archer75--- via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 10:25 PM
Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux?
When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so 
long and involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, 
searches, and reads online news.
Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted 
again providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there 
won't be the same invasions of privacy.

Gerry
~~~



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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Why do people, (like me), who are seriously critical of both Apple and 
Microsoft; not go to some flavor of Linux? 
When I tried to do it a number of years ago, the learning curve was so long and 
involved it wasn't worth it to someone who only does emails, searches, and 
reads online news.
Now, with all the invasions of privacy, I'm beginning to be tempted again 
providing it's been somewhat simplified and providing there won't be the same 
invasions of privacy.
Gerry
~~~
Curley McLain wrote:
> Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
> people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 and  i7 
> machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el crap.  
> Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called MacBook 
> Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.
> 
> Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the family 
> will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el crap, so it 
> becomes a linux machine, I guess.
> 
> Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Apple has used many processor families over the years:

6502
658C16
68000 family (four generations but not the 68010 or 68060)
ARM family (newton, iDevices)
PowerPC family (5 generations)
Intel family

The PPC Apple used was put out by a consortium of Motorola, IBM, and Apple.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

What you mention ismostly removing restrictions, rather than necessary 
new stuff, other than dealing with SSD.  Fixing the registry is a 
repair.  I don't use any SSD, so from my perspective, it still offers 
nothing other than more patches of Winders 2000.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
June 23, 2016 at 2:36 PM
"7 offered nothing" not true, its a real 64bit OS which allows for big 
RAM, plus real support for SSD wear leveling in the OS, better support 
of the registry so it doesn't get corrupt if you uninstall and 
reinstall repeatedly, etc...
I know you're anti-new OS but Win7 is a very good OS with few 
problems. I wish they'd rebuilt the interface from XP instead of 
starting with Vista but if wishes were horses...


-Curt

From: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com>

Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

And M$ only grudgingly supported xp (kicking and screaming) because 
they knew wizzta was such a screwup and 7 offered nothing and 8 was a 
screwup.  Their big corporate customers would no longer pay M$ for new 
OS that broke stuff every year or two.  M$ tried that:  2000, 2001 
became xp, then wizzta came out before most people bought xp.  Many 
biz functions were still running NT3.5 and NT4.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes June 23, 2016 at 10:58 AM Thats not 
Microsoft, if your hardware manufacturer doesn't provide a driver its 
not Microsoft's fault.
I've got Win10 running nicely on an HP XW8600 circa 2009, with an SSD 
boot drive and 16GB of RAM its faster than it was with WinXP that it 
shipped with.
Also you've got to give Microsoft credit for supporting WinXP for a 
really long time. It came in 2001 and was supported up until 2014. 
13 years is exceptional, in that time Apple went through how many OS 
versions with mandatory hardware upgrades?

-Curt

From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under
the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.
Same with Mac OS 10.


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Curley McLain June 23, 2016 at 10:44 AM
2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same 
under the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain 
hardware.  Same with Mac OS 10.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM I understand, but I 
also disagree.


It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older 
browsers. The revenue stream for such things is based on new 
purchases, so if you continue to put resources in place to maintain 
stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you dilute the profits for current 
product, or you have to make it that much more expensive to cover your 
costs.


A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to 
offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars. 
Why? They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of 
covering the up front costs to do so even if people would be willing 
to spend the money. Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126 
chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the 
aftermarket!)


This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software 
and architecture that is a part of new designs and development.


It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as 
those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the 
older stuff gets left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one 
will invest the time or money to maintain it.


It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do 
about it.


Dan




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Curley McLain June 23, 2016 at 10:27 AM Yabbut, both apfel and oogle 
drop browsers for the older OS's and most of us require a web browser 
for normal work.  The alternatives for 10.5 browsers are unworkable, 
and 10.6 

Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[clay via Mercedes]

Motorola 680x0 chips, Then the IBM/Motorola PowerPC 6xx series, before the 
switch to Intel.  Original chips ran to OS 7.6, PPC was OS 8-10.5.8.  There was 
much gnashing of teeth with the introduction of OS X and the Classic 
environment.



Clay

This e-mail from Clay Monroe and any attachments to it are confidential to the 
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sender cannot accept any liability for any damage arising from any bug or virus 
infection.

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:57 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> They used Motorola for the original processors, I believe.
> 
> There was similar consternation when they went from PPC to Intel as well.
> 
> Dan
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Ummm, are you forgetting the PowerPC taking over for the original 
>> processors, the name of which has escaped me now. That would have been OS 
>> 8.1 maybe?
>> Microsoft doesn't make hardware so they have no vested interest in dropping 
>> support for older hardware. Witness that Win 10 still comes in a 32 bit 
>> flavor. Apple hasn't supported 32 bit hardware for a long time.
>> -Curt
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

"7 offered nothing" not true, its a real 64bit OS which allows for big RAM, 
plus real support for SSD wear leveling in the OS, better support of the 
registry so it doesn't get corrupt if you uninstall and reinstall repeatedly, 
etc...
I know you're anti-new OS but Win7 is a very good OS with few problems. I wish 
they'd rebuilt the interface from XP instead of starting with Vista but if 
wishes were horses...

-Curt

  From: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 To: Curt Raymond <curtlud...@yahoo.com>; Mercedes Discussion List 
<mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 3:19 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
And M$ only grudgingly supported xp (kicking and screaming) because they knew 
wizzta was such a screwup and 7 offered nothing and 8 was a screwup.  Their big 
corporate customers would no longer pay M$ for new OS that broke stuff every 
year or two.  M$ tried that:  2000, 2001 became xp, then wizzta came out before 
most people bought xp.  Many biz functions were still running NT3.5 and NT4.


   Curt Raymond via Mercedes  June 23, 2016 at 10:58 AM  Thats not Microsoft, 
if your hardware manufacturer doesn't provide a driver its not Microsoft's 
fault.
I've got Win10 running nicely on an HP XW8600 circa 2009, with an SSD boot 
drive and 16GB of RAM its faster than it was with WinXP that it shipped with.
Also you've got to give Microsoft credit for supporting WinXP for a really 
long time. It came in 2001 and was supported up until 2014. 13 years is 
exceptional, in that time Apple went through how many OS versions with 
mandatory hardware upgrades?
-Curt

 From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:44 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
 
2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under 
the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  
Same with Mac OS 10.


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   Curley McLain  June 23, 2016 at 10:44 AM  
2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under the 
hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  Same with 
Mac OS 10.


   Dan Penoff via Mercedes  June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM  I understand, but I also 
disagree.

It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older browsers. The 
revenue stream for such things is based on new purchases, so if you continue to 
put resources in place to maintain stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you 
dilute the profits for current product, or you have to make it that much more 
expensive to cover your costs.

A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to offer 
updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars. Why? They’re in 
business to make money, and they have no way of covering the up front costs to 
do so even if people would be willing to spend the money. Why don’t they make 
xenon headlights for W126 chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure 
those exist in the aftermarket!)

This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software and 
architecture that is a part of new designs and development.

It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as those 
are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the older stuff gets 
left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one will invest the time or 
money to maintain it.

It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do about it.

Dan




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   Curley McLain  June 23, 2016 at 10:27 AM  Yabbut, both apfel and oogle drop 
browsers for the older OS's and most of us require a web browser for normal 
work.  The alternatives for 10.5 browsers are unworkable, and 10.6 will soon go 
that way.   I could care less about any downgrades put in place from 10.5 to 10 
.12.  I'd just like my software  (and peripherals) to work.

My complaint is that it is all arbitrary and artificial to make folks buy new 
hardware and software.  (whether billygates or apfel)




   Dan Penoff via Mercedes

Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Motorola made the 68000 series of processors (ending with 68040) and the 
PPC as well as the G3, G4 and G5, which were all the third generation.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 11:25 AM
IIRC Motorola made the PPC processors too or was that IBM? Amazing the 
stuff you forget.

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

And M$ only grudgingly supported xp (kicking and screaming) because they 
knew wizzta was such a screwup and 7 offered nothing and 8 was a 
screwup.  Their big corporate customers would no longer pay M$ for new 
OS that broke stuff every year or two.  M$ tried that:  2000, 2001 
became xp, then wizzta came out before most people bought xp.  Many biz 
functions were still running NT3.5 and NT4.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
June 23, 2016 at 10:58 AM
Thats not Microsoft, if your hardware manufacturer doesn't provide a 
driver its not Microsoft's fault.
I've got Win10 running nicely on an HP XW8600 circa 2009, with an SSD 
boot drive and 16GB of RAM its faster than it was with WinXP that it 
shipped with.
Also you've got to give Microsoft credit for supporting WinXP for a 
really long time. It came in 2001 and was supported up until 2014. 
13 years is exceptional, in that time Apple went through how many OS 
versions with mandatory hardware upgrades?

-Curt

From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under
the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.
Same with Mac OS 10.


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Curley McLain <mailto:126die...@gmail.com>
June 23, 2016 at 10:44 AM
2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same 
under the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain 
hardware.  Same with Mac OS 10.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM
I understand, but I also disagree.

It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older 
browsers. The revenue stream for such things is based on new 
purchases, so if you continue to put resources in place to maintain 
stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you dilute the profits for current 
product, or you have to make it that much more expensive to cover your 
costs.


A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to 
offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars. 
Why? They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of 
covering the up front costs to do so even if people would be willing 
to spend the money. Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126 
chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the 
aftermarket!)


This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software 
and architecture that is a part of new designs and development.


It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as 
those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the 
older stuff gets left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one 
will invest the time or money to maintain it.


It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do 
about it.


Dan




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Curley McLain <mailto:126die...@gmail.com>
June 23, 2016 at 10:27 AM
Yabbut, both apfel and oogle drop browsers for the older OS's and most 
of us require a web browser for normal work.  The alternatives for 
10.5 browsers are unworkable, and 10.6 will soon go that way.   I 
could care less about any downgrades put in place from 10.5 to 10 
.12.  I'd just like my software  (and peripherals) to work.


My complaint is that it is all arbitrary and artificial to make folks 
buy new hardware and software.  (whether billygates or apfel)





Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
June 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
They already have.

To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the 
newer OSs’, just leave well enough alone. I do it more for the 
challenge than anything else. I can’t say that there are features in 
El Cap or Sierra that I care about or need.


I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now 
with Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.


I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their 
old machines not being supporte

Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

IIRC Motorola made the PPC processors too or was that IBM? Amazing the stuff 
you forget.
-Curt

  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
They used Motorola for the original processors, I believe.

There was similar consternation when they went from PPC to Intel as well.

Dan

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> Ummm, are you forgetting the PowerPC taking over for the original processors, 
> the name of which has escaped me now. That would have been OS 8.1 maybe?
> Microsoft doesn't make hardware so they have no vested interest in dropping 
> support for older hardware. Witness that Win 10 still comes in a 32 bit 
> flavor. Apple hasn't supported 32 bit hardware for a long time.
> -Curt
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Right. A lot pf the criticism of MS is due to the broad range of old and
new hardware that they support, both old and new. Apple doesn't do that.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 10:58 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Thats not Microsoft, if your hardware manufacturer doesn't provide a
> driver its not Microsoft's fault.
> I've got Win10 running nicely on an HP XW8600 circa 2009, with an SSD boot
> drive and 16GB of RAM its faster than it was with WinXP that it shipped
> with.
> Also you've got to give Microsoft credit for supporting WinXP for a
> really long time. It came in 2001 and was supported up until 2014. 13
> years is exceptional, in that time Apple went through how many OS versions
> with mandatory hardware upgrades?
> -Curt
>
>   From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
>  Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:44 AM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
>
> 2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...
>
> As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under
> the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.
> Same with Mac OS 10.
>
> > Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM
> > I understand, but I also disagree.
> >
> > It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older
> > browsers. The revenue stream for such things is based on new
> > purchases, so if you continue to put resources in place to maintain
> > stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you dilute the profits for current
> > product, or you have to make it that much more expensive to cover your
> > costs.
> >
> > A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to
> > offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars.
> > Why? They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of
> > covering the up front costs to do so even if people would be willing
> > to spend the money. Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126
> > chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the
> > aftermarket!)
> >
> > This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software
> > and architecture that is a part of new designs and development.
> >
> > It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as
> > those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the
> > older stuff gets left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one
> > will invest the time or money to maintain it.
> >
> > It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do
> > about it.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> > Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> > June 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
> > They already have.
> >
> > To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the
> > newer OSs’, just leave well enough alone. I do it more for the
> > challenge than anything else. I can’t say that there are features in
> > El Cap or Sierra that I care about or need.
> >
> > I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now
> > with Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.
> >
> > I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their
> > old machines not being supported. Apple has had a hardware and
> > software legacy policy in place for years that’s pretty much
> > unchanged. This is nothing new and the new releases fall right into
> > place with the terms of that policy.
> >
> > https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624
> > <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
> >
> > MacDan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> > Curley McLain <mailto:126die...@gmail.com>
> > June 23, 2016 at 9:56 AM
> > Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force
> > p

Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Thats not Microsoft, if your hardware manufacturer doesn't provide a driver its 
not Microsoft's fault.
I've got Win10 running nicely on an HP XW8600 circa 2009, with an SSD boot 
drive and 16GB of RAM its faster than it was with WinXP that it shipped with.
Also you've got to give Microsoft credit for supporting WinXP for a really 
long time. It came in 2001 and was supported up until 2014. 13 years is 
exceptional, in that time Apple went through how many OS versions with 
mandatory hardware upgrades?
-Curt

  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:44 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under 
the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  
Same with Mac OS 10.

> Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM
> I understand, but I also disagree.
>
> It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older 
> browsers. The revenue stream for such things is based on new 
> purchases, so if you continue to put resources in place to maintain 
> stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you dilute the profits for current 
> product, or you have to make it that much more expensive to cover your 
> costs.
>
> A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to 
> offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars. 
> Why? They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of 
> covering the up front costs to do so even if people would be willing 
> to spend the money. Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126 
> chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the 
> aftermarket!)
>
> This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software 
> and architecture that is a part of new designs and development.
>
> It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as 
> those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the 
> older stuff gets left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one 
> will invest the time or money to maintain it.
>
> It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do 
> about it.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> June 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
> They already have.
>
> To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the 
> newer OSs’, just leave well enough alone. I do it more for the 
> challenge than anything else. I can’t say that there are features in 
> El Cap or Sierra that I care about or need.
>
> I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now 
> with Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.
>
> I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their 
> old machines not being supported. Apple has had a hardware and 
> software legacy policy in place for years that’s pretty much 
> unchanged. This is nothing new and the new releases fall right into 
> place with the terms of that policy.
>
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>
>
> MacDan
>
>
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
> Curley McLain <mailto:126die...@gmail.com>
> June 23, 2016 at 9:56 AM
> Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
> people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 
> and i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el 
> crap.  Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called 
> MacBook Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.
>
> Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the 
> family will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el 
> crap, so it becomes a linux machine, I guess.
>
> Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> machines work.  What do you all think about this new sales scam?

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

They used Motorola for the original processors, I believe.

There was similar consternation when they went from PPC to Intel as well.

Dan

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ummm, are you forgetting the PowerPC taking over for the original processors, 
> the name of which has escaped me now. That would have been OS 8.1 maybe?
> Microsoft doesn't make hardware so they have no vested interest in dropping 
> support for older hardware. Witness that Win 10 still comes in a 32 bit 
> flavor. Apple hasn't supported 32 bit hardware for a long time.
> -Curt
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

2010 products are not supported, they are considered “vintage”.  Apple’s 
policies have been this way for many years.  And there is nothing to prevent a 
user from continuing to use them with their native OS.  No one said anything 
about 10 year old machines, that I recall.

Dan


> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
> > wrote:
> 
> 2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...
> 
> As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under the 
> hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  Same with 
> Mac OS 10.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes > >

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

2010 products are not supported, they are considered “vintage”.  Apple’s 
policies have been this way for many years.  And there is nothing to prevent a 
user from continuing to use them with their native OS.  No one said anything 
about 10 year old machines, that I recall.

Dan


> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...
> 
> As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under the 
> hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  Same with 
> Mac OS 10.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes > >

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Ummm, are you forgetting the PowerPC taking over for the original processors, 
the name of which has escaped me now. That would have been OS 8.1 maybe?
Microsoft doesn't make hardware so they have no vested interest in dropping 
support for older hardware. Witness that Win 10 still comes in a 32 bit flavor. 
Apple hasn't supported 32 bit hardware for a long time.
-Curt

  From: Curley McLain via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Curley McLain <126die...@gmail.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:40 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
"Microsoft doesn't arbitrarily force upgrades like Apple"  Whattarya 
smokin?    Apfel is now following the billyg track of forcing upgrades.  
the first time apfel did it was when os 10.something (10.3?,  10.4?) 
dropped support for non-intel processors, and that IMO was necessary.

> Curt Raymond via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> June 23, 2016 at 10:31 AM
> I'm with Dan, this is nothing new, in fact Microsoft doesn't 
> arbitrarily force upgrades like Apple, this has been going on since 
> forever...
> -Curt

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

2010 machines being dropped are not 10 years old...

As for OS, widows 2000, xp, wizzta, 7, 8, and 10 are all the same under 
the hood.  they just put arbitrary blocks to require certain hardware.  
Same with Mac OS 10.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 10:38 AM
I understand, but I also disagree.

It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older 
browsers. The revenue stream for such things is based on new 
purchases, so if you continue to put resources in place to maintain 
stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you dilute the profits for current 
product, or you have to make it that much more expensive to cover your 
costs.


A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to 
offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars. 
Why? They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of 
covering the up front costs to do so even if people would be willing 
to spend the money. Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126 
chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the 
aftermarket!)


This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software 
and architecture that is a part of new designs and development.


It’s a market driven issue. People want more bells and whistles and as 
those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the 
older stuff gets left behind. If there’s little demand for it, no one 
will invest the time or money to maintain it.


It’s progress, man. It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do 
about it.


Dan




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Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
They already have.

To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the 
newer OSs’, just leave well enough alone. I do it more for the 
challenge than anything else. I can’t say that there are features in 
El Cap or Sierra that I care about or need.


I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now 
with Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.


I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their 
old machines not being supported. Apple has had a hardware and 
software legacy policy in place for years that’s pretty much 
unchanged. This is nothing new and the new releases fall right into 
place with the terms of that policy.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 



MacDan




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Curley McLain 
June 23, 2016 at 9:56 AM
Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 
and i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el 
crap.  Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called 
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.


Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the 
family will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el 
crap, so it becomes a linux machine, I guess.


Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Curly wants a nonprofit entity - such as the government - to nationalize
Apple and Google and run these corporations for the People's benefit.
On Jun 23, 2016 11:38 AM, "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 
wrote:

I understand, but I also disagree.

It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older browsers.
The revenue stream for such things is based on new purchases, so if you
continue to put resources in place to maintain stuff that’s 10 years old or
older, you dilute the profits for current product, or you have to make it
that much more expensive to cover your costs.

A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to
offer updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars.  Why?
They’re in business to make money, and they have no way of covering the up
front costs to do so even if people would be willing to spend the money.
Why don’t they make xenon headlights for W126 chassis cars, for example?
(Heck, I’m not even sure those exist in the aftermarket!)

This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software and
architecture that is a part of new designs and development.

It’s a market driven issue.  People want more bells and whistles and as
those are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the older
stuff gets left behind.  If there’s little demand for it, no one will
invest the time or money to maintain it.

It’s progress, man.  It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do about it.

Dan



> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> Yabbut, both apfel and oogle drop browsers for the older OS's and most of
us require a web browser for normal work.  The alternatives for 10.5
browsers are unworkable, and 10.6 will soon go that way.   I could care
less about any downgrades put in place from 10.5 to 10 .12.  I'd just like
my software  (and peripherals) to work.
>
> My complaint is that it is all arbitrary and artificial to make folks buy
new hardware and software.  (whether billygates or apfel)
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

"Microsoft doesn't arbitrarily force upgrades like Apple"   Whattarya 
smokin?Apfel is now following the billyg track of forcing upgrades.  
the first time apfel did it was when os 10.something (10.3?,   10.4?) 
dropped support for non-intel processors, and that IMO was necessary.



Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 10:31 AM
I'm with Dan, this is nothing new, in fact Microsoft doesn't 
arbitrarily force upgrades like Apple, this has been going on since 
forever...

-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I understand, but I also disagree.

It takes resources to maintain and update/upgrade those older browsers.  The 
revenue stream for such things is based on new purchases, so if you continue to 
put resources in place to maintain stuff that’s 10 years old or older, you 
dilute the profits for current product, or you have to make it that much more 
expensive to cover your costs.

A similar analogy would be to suggest that Mercedes should continue to offer 
updates or engineering changes/enhancements to our older cars.  Why?  They’re 
in business to make money, and they have no way of covering the up front costs 
to do so even if people would be willing to spend the money.  Why don’t they 
make xenon headlights for W126 chassis cars, for example? (Heck, I’m not even 
sure those exist in the aftermarket!)

This is compounded with computers by the constant changes in software and 
architecture that is a part of new designs and development.

It’s a market driven issue.  People want more bells and whistles and as those 
are created, rolled out and accepted by the general public the older stuff gets 
left behind.  If there’s little demand for it, no one will invest the time or 
money to maintain it.

It’s progress, man.  It can suck, but there’s not a lot you can do about it.

Dan



> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yabbut, both apfel and oogle drop browsers for the older OS's and most of us 
> require a web browser for normal work.  The alternatives for 10.5 browsers 
> are unworkable, and 10.6 will soon go that way.   I could care less about any 
> downgrades put in place from 10.5 to 10 .12.  I'd just like my software  (and 
> peripherals) to work.
> 
> My complaint is that it is all arbitrary and artificial to make folks buy new 
> hardware and software.  (whether billygates or apfel)
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I'm with Dan, this is nothing new, in fact Microsoft doesn't arbitrarily force 
upgrades like Apple, this has been going on since forever...
-Curt

  From: Dan Penoff via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
 To: Mercedes List <mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 11:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12
   
They already have.

To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the newer OSs’, 
just leave well enough alone.  I do it more for the challenge than anything 
else.  I can’t say that there are features in El Cap or Sierra that I care 
about or need.

I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now with 
Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.

I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their old 
machines not being supported.  Apple has had a hardware and software legacy 
policy in place for years that’s pretty much unchanged.  This is nothing new 
and the new releases fall right into place with the terms of that policy.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624>

MacDan



> On Jun 23, 2016, at 10:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> machines work.  What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Yabbut, both apfel and oogle drop browsers for the older OS's and most 
of us require a web browser for normal work.  The alternatives for 10.5 
browsers are unworkable, and 10.6 will soon go that way.   I could care 
less about any downgrades put in place from 10.5 to 10 .12.  I'd just 
like my software  (and peripherals) to work.


My complaint is that it is all arbitrary and artificial to make folks 
buy new hardware and software.  (whether billygates or apfel)





Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
June 23, 2016 at 10:13 AM
They already have.

To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the 
newer OSs’, just leave well enough alone. I do it more for the 
challenge than anything else. I can’t say that there are features in 
El Cap or Sierra that I care about or need.


I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now 
with Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.


I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their 
old machines not being supported. Apple has had a hardware and 
software legacy policy in place for years that’s pretty much 
unchanged. This is nothing new and the new releases fall right into 
place with the terms of that policy.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 



MacDan




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Curley McLain 
June 23, 2016 at 9:56 AM
Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 
and i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el 
crap.  Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called 
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.


Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the 
family will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el 
crap, so it becomes a linux machine, I guess.


Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

They already have.

To be honest, unless you’re looking for some of the features of the newer OSs’, 
just leave well enough alone.  I do it more for the challenge than anything 
else.  I can’t say that there are features in El Cap or Sierra that I care 
about or need.

I recently bought a Mac Pro 3,1 to get into El Cap natively, and now with 
Sierra coming out, it’s a legacy machine.

I sort of chuckle when I hear people getting all worked up about their old 
machines not being supported.  Apple has had a hardware and software legacy 
policy in place for years that’s pretty much unchanged.  This is nothing new 
and the new releases fall right into place with the terms of that policy.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 


MacDan



> On Jun 23, 2016, at 10:56 AM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
> machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?
> 
> ___
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> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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[MBZ] OT Mac OS 10.12

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Since apfel has decided to go all Billygates and arbitrarily force 
people to abandon pre-2010 machines with 10.12, does that include i5 and 
i7 machines?  I see they have changed the nomenclature with el crap.  
Where my mosheen was Macbook pro 8.1 before, now it is called MacBook 
Pro (13-inch, Early 2011) in el crap.


Obviously this machine is still ok, but the other macbooks in the family 
will be SOL.  One, the macbook 1,1 is already bypassed by el crap, so it 
becomes a linux machine, I guess.


Dan said he thinks the hackintosh crowd will find a way to make older 
machines work.   What do you all think about this new sales scam?


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