Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Here in SC we have a tiered system for new drivers. A teenager gets a 'permit' which requires that only one or two other adults who hold licenses must/can be in the car. After a period of time and other criteria I don't remember, teen gets a 'daylight' license which basically means he/she can drive alone or with other adults who hold licenses, then after more time (2 years?) they get the full license for day/night and whomever passengers they can convince to ride with them. State can (if prodded by the voters) tell the insurance companies what they'll do and not do, but it takes voters to get off their butts. I suspect that insurance companies may like the idea - will give them more excuses to charge higher rates. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Loren Faeth Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 3:35 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Yes, I thought a tiered approach to both drivers license and vehicle rating would be good. Vehicles and drivers with exceptionally good avoidance characteristics would be allowed higher speeds. Particularly high speed cars only allowed for high rated drivers. i gave up on the idea long ago. The law and insurance morons would kill any such reform. I think a tiered driver's license scheme could work, and create incentive for folks to improve their driving skills. The higher tiers would allow one to exceed posted speed limits by 10 or 20 mph under the right conditions (light traffic, good weather, vehicle in safe operating condition). Lower tiers would have restrictions like day-light only, no passengers except other driver's with higher tier licenses, no highway driving. Then you could restrict vehicle type by license type as well. More than 100HP? More than 3500 lbs GVW? You need a Tier 3 license to drive that! 200+ HP? Tier 4! At fault in a collision? Lose two tiers of license! Texting while driving? Back to Tier 1 -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
We also called them suicide knobs. I'm old enough to remember them but not old enough to have driven a car/truck with one installed. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Weren't those called necking (k)nobs so you could put one arm around yo lady and steer with one hand on the knob? --R OK Don wrote: Remember the knobs on the steering wheels before power steering? Much the same effect as a spike. No effect on driving behavior. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:06 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I thought that was the point of the freon tube on the A/C wheel? That's not what makes it automatic, though that is an automatic feature. If it can't switch from heating to cooling on its own, and back, it's not ACC. So, if it's not evil ACC does that mean I could have repaired it somehow? Or if the freon tube was dead (still not sure about that) then I'd have still been SOL? You could have fixed it. The freon tube is (I think) still available, though not cheap, but there are used ones out there. I even recharged one, but I'm not sure how well that worked. (Sold the car.) One could flange up a solid-state replacement, were the desire there. It's just a variable thermostat driving a contact switch to cut off the AC compressor. It's used to prevent the AC evaporator from icing up, and to provide some degree of throttling back of the AC when it's not all that hot out. (Mostly we want them on full!) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I remember suggesting to my great uncle that we get one for our Super M tractor since all we do is mow with it. He got irate and told me I'll never have one of those dammed wrist breakers on one of my machines! According to my grandmother the word he left out was again. Apparently there was some story about him and a young lady... -Curt Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:34:20 -0500 From: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 1370e90cffd2ac4b8cb65267ba10c4b801db9...@naeachrlez02v.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We also called them suicide knobs. I'm old enough to remember them but not old enough to have driven a car/truck with one installed. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Rich Thomas Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:10 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Weren't those called necking (k)nobs so you could put one arm around yo lady and steer with one hand on the knob? --R OK Don wrote: Remember the knobs on the steering wheels before power steering? Much the same effect as a spike. No effect on driving behavior. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I've been thinking for awhile that to get your driver's license there should always be a motorcycle component. I'm not saying everybody should have a motorcycle endorsement but rather everybody should have at least say 4 hours motorcycle experience. I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... -Curt Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:26:26 -0600 From: Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 3485b4231002161926m6e7fd705k2f37779308a3...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 --R wrote: But if you look at crash and death data, the injuries and crashes and fatalities are due to inattentive driving, tailgating, drunkeness, and other stupid behaviors. I don't think that there is any way of getting rid of stupid. Perhaps a driver license should not be such a rite of passage between teenage and young adult, and perhaps most people really should not drive. i.e. more car pool, etc. - or like you, rid a bike. Too many drivers on the road that don't need to be there, plus, they have no attention being given to actual driving, on the whole. The issue of toyota is a shame, as there may be some small manufacturing error, but it seems the larger issue is the lack of carefulness in knowing how to operate the equipment and general inattentiveness. Hey, toyota is a big boy - they will do fine. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I'm with Peter on all counts, traction control is a massive waste of time. I've never had it and never been off the road or in a crash. Defensive driving is way more important than technology. I'd suspect that traction control actually causes accidents in the same way I think AWD causes accidents. People drive too fast for conditions because My car is really good in snow and off the road they go. My in-laws are really good examples of people not smart enough to stay home when conditions are bad. They'll complain about the roads but god forbid they go to work an hour late once in awhile and let the plows get out. My father-in-law just bought a 4wd Dakota (which will never see even a gravel road) because his 2wd Frontier wasn't powerful enough and wasn't good in snow but he refused to add any weight to it or get snow tires... Most people (I know nobody on here) are amazed when they realize I drive a rear wheel drive car with no traction control all winter. I've been out in some humdinger storms too... -Curt Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:01:23 -0600 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 7e144ef0-634e-464c-9f40-6e00f4ef8...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed All you need for throttle reduction (and fuel cutoff works almost as well) is the spring loaded system MB used in the W126. Mehcanical throttle with a servo that can push it shut against a sprung rod, works pretty well. Since it only closes the throttle, it cannot stick open. There are several other ways to make it work, including using the stop light filaments as the ground for the throttle servo circuit. When the stop lamps are on, the control circuit goes dead. Any system that allow unintended throttle opening is faulty, they really have to be failsafe. This is why the throttle spring is on the throttle, not the dash -- that way if the linkage breaks, the throttle goes closed instead of falling wide open. Very expensive over-reliance on very complex electronics for very marginal results. I cannot be convinced that active traction control does much that a minimally competent driver can do. Antilock brakes are great, but individual wheel speed control to keep an SUV from falling over is B...sh... The only thing that's gonna keep a vehicle from rolling over in a minor accident, as all SUVs and Minivans do, is to lower the center of gravity about 18. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
FWIW, the traction control on my Crown Vic is pretty much useless. I turn it off when I'm on slippery surfaces. Dan --- On Wed, 2/17/10, Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada To: Diesel List mercedes@okiebenz.com Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2010, 8:17 AM I'm with Peter on all counts, traction control is a massive waste of time. I've never had it and never been off the road or in a crash. Defensive driving is way more important than technology. I'd suspect that traction control actually causes accidents in the same way I think AWD causes accidents. People drive too fast for conditions because My car is really good in snow and off the road they go. My in-laws are really good examples of people not smart enough to stay home when conditions are bad. They'll complain about the roads but god forbid they go to work an hour late once in awhile and let the plows get out. My father-in-law just bought a 4wd Dakota (which will never see even a gravel road) because his 2wd Frontier wasn't powerful enough and wasn't good in snow but he refused to add any weight to it or get snow tires... Most people (I know nobody on here) are amazed when they realize I drive a rear wheel drive car with no traction control all winter. I've been out in some humdinger storms too... -Curt Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:01:23 -0600 From: Peter Frederick psf...@earthlink.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 7e144ef0-634e-464c-9f40-6e00f4ef8...@earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed All you need for throttle reduction (and fuel cutoff works almost as well) is the spring loaded system MB used in the W126. Mehcanical throttle with a servo that can push it shut against a sprung rod, works pretty well. Since it only closes the throttle, it cannot stick open. There are several other ways to make it work, including using the stop light filaments as the ground for the throttle servo circuit. When the stop lamps are on, the control circuit goes dead. Any system that allow unintended throttle opening is faulty, they really have to be failsafe. This is why the throttle spring is on the throttle, not the dash -- that way if the linkage breaks, the throttle goes closed instead of falling wide open. Very expensive over-reliance on very complex electronics for very marginal results. I cannot be convinced that active traction control does much that a minimally competent driver can do. Antilock brakes are great, but individual wheel speed control to keep an SUV from falling over is B...sh... The only thing that's gonna keep a vehicle from rolling over in a minor accident, as all SUVs and Minivans do, is to lower the center of gravity about 18. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I agree with Curt. I know nothing about traction control electronics gizmos. I know a 240D can run all winter in some really nasty weather and be just fine. (and a 126 is probably better other than the stupid automatic transmission) The manual dual heater controls in the 240D help keep the windshield clean. The automobile industry is under the clutches of the worst characteristic of software programmers: Hey! I think i can do this, (Maybe) therefore we HAVE TO put in this software I am working on. (Bloatware, stupidware) The prime example was MS excel (was it 6 or 95?) that had 30mb of a scrolling starwars intro type cast of characters with the stars coming at you. I met the project manager for that version of excel once. He was way more proud of that bloatware than he was of excel. The guy was amazing, way wicked fast on excel though. He could build a spreadsheet with all the bells and whistles so fast you (or I at least) could not even comprehend how he was doing what he did, in order to be able to learn some tricks. This discussion of electronics in all new cars leads me to appreciate way more the 123 124 and 126 cars. I think I want to keep all mine so as to avoid all the toyodaness of fly by wire malfunctions The control wire I want in my cars and the planes I fly in are cables physically connected to the control surfaces. There is a growing body of evidence that a good number of unexplained airbus crashes are caused by failure of the electronic control system, and the lack of physically connected controls. The toyoda story is the same. Unexplained crashes cause by runamuck software programmers and a company sucked in by the programmer's hype rather than by good decisionmaking. It could have all been avoided by installing a key switch or a red emergency stop button on the toadas. It is reminiscent of the old Plymies with the pushbutton automatic transmission Most of them were crushed early because of failure of the switches. In the past, I have ranted about the stupid ACC MB used as opposed to the simple cables in the 110,111, 112, 108, 109, 113 etc. cars where you could absolutely control the heating and cooling and nothing ever failed, and the defrosters were way better than the 123,124,126 cars with ACCII. I completely avoided anything with ACCI (115 and 116) I drove VW and frod Dissels to avoid the MB stupidity of ACC. I'm with Peter on all counts, traction control is a massive waste of time. I've never had it and never been off the road or in a crash. Defensive driving is way more important than technology. I'd suspect that traction control actually causes accidents in the same way I think AWD causes accidents. People drive too fast for conditions because My car is really good in snow and off the road they go. My in-laws are really good examples of people not smart enough to stay home when conditions are bad. They'll complain about the roads but god forbid they go to work an hour late once in awhile and let the plows get out. My father-in-law just bought a 4wd Dakota (which will never see even a gravel road) because his 2wd Frontier wasn't powerful enough and wasn't good in snow but he refused to add any weight to it or get snow tires... Most people (I know nobody on here) are amazed when they realize I drive a rear wheel drive car with no traction control all winter. I've been out in some humdinger storms too... -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
completely avoided anything with ACCI (115 and 116) I didn't think 115 had any ACC. The 107 and 123 have the dubious distinction of having had all three generations of HVAC system in them. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: completely avoided anything with ACCI (115 and 116) I didn't think 115 had any ACC. My '74 240D had a confusing arrangement of two-by-two parallel slides, each of which did something I think, for the heater, plus of course the vent slide and the turn button in the middle. It also had an A/C wheel in the center of the console, the one that had the freon tube that went into the blower area. I thought that was ACCI? -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
The 115 300D had ACC, at least in the later years. completely avoided anything with ACCI (115 and 116) I didn't think 115 had any ACC. The 107 and 123 have the dubious distinction of having had all three generations of HVAC system in them. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
ACC1 was the moronic chrysler ACC servo ACC II came out in 1985 or so The coonfusing arrangement was simple. Top was left heat and right heat. bottom was inside air or outside air and up or down. Switch in the middle was fan speed It was as near bulletproff as any heater can be. The wheel was switch and temp setting for A/C It is explained very clearly in the owners manual. None of this ACC c (rap) lets you control left or right heat separately On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: completely avoided anything with ACCI (115 and 116) I didn't think 115 had any ACC. My '74 240D had a confusing arrangement of two-by-two parallel slides, each of which did something I think, for the heater, plus of course the vent slide and the turn button in the middle. It also had an A/C wheel in the center of the console, the one that had the freon tube that went into the blower area. I thought that was ACCI? -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
The 115 300D had ACC, at least in the later years. Weren't there only two years of 115 300D? 75-76? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I thought that was ACCI? The A stands for automatic. Was it automatic? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
The other day leaving work, I was behind a woman texting while driving, and she could not stay in her lane. At first I thought she was drunk, but after observing her from behind I figured out the problem and waited to pass once she put her phone down and was looking at the road again. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib snip Crash report is not final but there was no indication of intoxication. Speculation is that she was texting. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
'Came upon a woman driver from behind coupla years ago; she was driving very erratically - speed up and down, weaving side to side, etc. 'First thought she was drunk. 'Finally timed my passing her as she started to the right on her weave cycle. My front passenger looked down into her car as we passed; she was doing a crossword puzzle in her lap with pencil/pen. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC,53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada The other day leaving work, I was behind a woman texting while driving, and she could not stay in her lane. At first I thought she was drunk, but after observing her from behind I figured out the problem and waited to pass once she put her phone down and was looking at the road again. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib snip Crash report is not final but there was no indication of intoxication. Speculation is that she was texting. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I think a tiered driver's license scheme could work, and create incentive for folks to improve their driving skills. The higher tiers would allow one to exceed posted speed limits by 10 or 20 mph under the right conditions (light traffic, good weather, vehicle in safe operating condition). Lower tiers would have restrictions like day-light only, no passengers except other driver's with higher tier licenses, no highway driving. Then you could restrict vehicle type by license type as well. More than 100HP? More than 3500 lbs GVW? You need a Tier 3 license to drive that! 200+ HP? Tier 4! At fault in a collision? Lose two tiers of license! Texting while driving? Back to Tier 1 -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: The other day leaving work, I was behind a woman texting while driving, and she could not stay in her lane. At first I thought she was drunk, but after observing her from behind I figured out the problem and waited to pass once she put her phone down and was looking at the road again. Call 9-1-1, give them her plate number, and tell them she appears to be intoxicated and can't keep her car in one lane due to excessive weaving. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I like the tier to HP connection. I also like it for weight. Under 150hp and 2 tons - tier 1 150-200hp or 2 - 3 tons - tier 2 200-250hp or 3-4 tons - tier 3 250+hp - tier 4 I think for the most part it would just be men getting anything above tier 3... I also think this would keep people out of stupidly big vehicles. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:27:49 -0500 From: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 1370e90cffd2ac4b8cb65267ba10c4b801db9...@naeachrlez02v.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think a tiered driver's license scheme could work, and create incentive for folks to improve their driving skills. The higher tiers would allow one to exceed posted speed limits by 10 or 20 mph under the right conditions (light traffic, good weather, vehicle in safe operating condition). Lower tiers would have restrictions like day-light only, no passengers except other driver's with higher tier licenses, no highway driving. Then you could restrict vehicle type by license type as well. More than 100HP? More than 3500 lbs GVW? You need a Tier 3 license to drive that! 200+ HP? Tier 4! At fault in a collision? Lose two tiers of license! Texting while driving? Back to Tier 1 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Last time I did that, dispatcher put me on hold while I followed, we crossed into different police jurisdiction, had to hang up and dial 911 to get new dispatcher, on hold again, at that point I'm nearly as much of a hazard as the drunk driver, I hung up. Where I live (Charleston) one can cross three different police jurisdictions in less than 10 minutes, and the drunk driving laws (South Carolina) are so lax that a good attorney and a few grand will get you back on the road in no time. Good thought, I'm skeptical that it does much good though... I avoid driving after 10 p.m. on weekends to improve my odds vs. the drunk drivers. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 1:40 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: The other day leaving work, I was behind a woman texting while driving, and she could not stay in her lane. At first I thought she was drunk, but after observing her from behind I figured out the problem and waited to pass once she put her phone down and was looking at the road again. Call 9-1-1, give them her plate number, and tell them she appears to be intoxicated and can't keep her car in one lane due to excessive weaving. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
I realized after I posted that I had left out the part about increasingly difficult tests/qualifications required for higher tiers, as well as increasing cost. Just need to drive back and forth to work? Tier 1 (daylight) or tier 2 (day and night) will be fine, low cost, high-school driver's ed. and some experience required. Tier 4/5 or whatever, significantly higher cost, X-years experience, maybe minimum age of 25, spotless record for last three years, demonstrate on a closed track a much higher level of ability, renew ALL requirements every five years. This may not fix all the poor driving, but I think it would help. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Curt Raymond Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 2:23 PM To: Diesel List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada I like the tier to HP connection. I also like it for weight. Under 150hp and 2 tons - tier 1 150-200hp or 2 - 3 tons - tier 2 200-250hp or 3-4 tons - tier 3 250+hp - tier 4 I think for the most part it would just be men getting anything above tier 3... I also think this would keep people out of stupidly big vehicles. -Curt Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:27:49 -0500 From: Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 meade.m.dil...@navy.mil To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Message-ID: 1370e90cffd2ac4b8cb65267ba10c4b801db9...@naeachrlez02v.nadsusea.nads.navy.mil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think a tiered driver's license scheme could work, and create incentive for folks to improve their driving skills. The higher tiers would allow one to exceed posted speed limits by 10 or 20 mph under the right conditions (light traffic, good weather, vehicle in safe operating condition). Lower tiers would have restrictions like day-light only, no passengers except other driver's with higher tier licenses, no highway driving. Then you could restrict vehicle type by license type as well. More than 100HP? More than 3500 lbs GVW? You need a Tier 3 license to drive that! 200+ HP? Tier 4! At fault in a collision? Lose two tiers of license! Texting while driving? Back to Tier 1 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
A friend was on the Stono bridge last week and almost got hit in the side by a guy in the other lane texting and drifting. At one point he almost ran up on the sidewalk on the bridge. --R Dillon, Meade M CIV SPAWARSYSCEN-ATLANTIC, 53310 wrote: The other day leaving work, I was behind a woman texting while driving, and she could not stay in her lane. At first I thought she was drunk, but after observing her from behind I figured out the problem and waited to pass once she put her phone down and was looking at the road again. -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib snip Crash report is not final but there was no indication of intoxication. Speculation is that she was texting. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Remember the knobs on the steering wheels before power steering? Much the same effect as a spike. No effect on driving behavior. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:06 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. -- OK Don Panic! (the national past time). ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Exactly, and no, the climate control was not automatic. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: The 115 300D had ACC, at least in the later years. Weren't there only two years of 115 300D? 75-76? -- Jim -- OK Don Panic! (the national past time). ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Yes, I thought a tiered approach to both drivers license and vehicle rating would be good. Vehicles and drivers with exceptionally good avoidance characteristics would be allowed higher speeds. Particularly high speed cars only allowed for high rated drivers. i gave up on the idea long ago. The law and insurance morons would kill any such reform. I think a tiered driver's license scheme could work, and create incentive for folks to improve their driving skills. The higher tiers would allow one to exceed posted speed limits by 10 or 20 mph under the right conditions (light traffic, good weather, vehicle in safe operating condition). Lower tiers would have restrictions like day-light only, no passengers except other driver's with higher tier licenses, no highway driving. Then you could restrict vehicle type by license type as well. More than 100HP? More than 3500 lbs GVW? You need a Tier 3 license to drive that! 200+ HP? Tier 4! At fault in a collision? Lose two tiers of license! Texting while driving? Back to Tier 1 -Max -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:07 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
yep, and it was manual ac Jim Cathey wrote: The 115 300D had ACC, at least in the later years. Weren't there only two years of 115 300D? 75-76? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 350SDL, 91 300D, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Maybe so, but the one 76 115 300D I junked out had a heavily corroded chrysler ACC servo in it. I don't know how many had it, but maybe it was an option on the cheap 115 chassis. No, it was not a retrofit. NOBODY in their right mind, or nobody who is insane, would put one of those things into a car on purpose. yep, and it was manual ac Jim Cathey wrote: The 115 300D had ACC, at least in the later years. Weren't there only two years of 115 300D? 75-76? -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK 95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 350SDL, 91 300D, 89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 84 300D euro manny, 76 240D, 76 300D, http://www.okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Weren't those called necking (k)nobs so you could put one arm around yo lady and steer with one hand on the knob? --R OK Don wrote: Remember the knobs on the steering wheels before power steering? Much the same effect as a spike. No effect on driving behavior. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:06 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Curt Raymond wrote: I think the exposure (and the feeling of exposure while riding) makes you a better driver... Some auto writer, I think it was Patrick Bedard, suggested that you could decrease automotive deaths and greatly decrease crashes if you mandated a steel spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag. Looking at your own impending doom would tend to make one drive more carefully. He was basing the idea on risk compensation, which I think motorists do engage in. Drivers have a certain tolerance for risk. If you lower their perception of risk through safety improvements to the car, they will compensate by decreasing the safety of their driving to bring the total risk back up to their comfort ceiling. The spike in the steering wheel would be a bitch if somebody ran a red light in front of you. You'd get spiked and they probably would not. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: I thought that was ACCI? The A stands for automatic. Was it automatic? I thought that was the point of the freon tube on the A/C wheel? To be fair the whole thing was probably more confusing than it should have been because the heater fan never worked, so even sitting with the manual I had to guess what was supposed to be doing what. The only reliable settings in my actual car were that in defrost, the A/C would be on, and heat would be available on the interstate, but I could never remember in advance to set the slides left or right to make that happen. So, if it's not evil ACC does that mean I could have repaired it somehow? Or if the freon tube was dead (still not sure about that) then I'd have still been SOL? Thanks, -Tim always grateful to drink of the list knowledge, hoping another 115 will grace my driveway eventually :) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
repairable, yes, but if the problem was the heater fan motor, not the switch, that is a PITA. Everything else is simple. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote: I thought that was ACCI? The A stands for automatic. Was it automatic? I thought that was the point of the freon tube on the A/C wheel? To be fair the whole thing was probably more confusing than it should have been because the heater fan never worked, so even sitting with the manual I had to guess what was supposed to be doing what. The only reliable settings in my actual car were that in defrost, the A/C would be on, and heat would be available on the interstate, but I could never remember in advance to set the slides left or right to make that happen. So, if it's not evil ACC does that mean I could have repaired it somehow? Or if the freon tube was dead (still not sure about that) then I'd have still been SOL? Thanks, -Tim always grateful to drink of the list knowledge, hoping another 115 will grace my driveway eventually :) ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
The mechanical linkage is dead, gone and unable to be resurrected; mandated traction control has seen to it. Consider the 98 w210.025's were fly-by wire, and look at the number of issues with them. It can be done right, but it cannot be done right when someone tries to cut every last cent they can. I am hoping that we don't see some sort of overreaction which brings parity between the QC (and QC regulations) of automobile parts/repairs and those of airplanes. -- John W Reames jwrea...@comcast.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Feb 13, 2010, at 9:10, Loren Faeth lfa...@leadingchange.com wrote: To add to the prior post, the article below was also sent out by ASQ (American Society for Quality) Friends don't let friends drive toadas You stand a good chance of ending up incinerated. It was sickening to hear about a bright outgoing 20 year old girl being incinerated so badly that it took two weeks just to identify the remains, simply because she was driving a new toada. Experts Say Recalls May Not Solve Problem CNN.com February 10, 2010 In his hectic, noisy laboratory at the University of Maryland, Michael Pecht is wary when it comes to assessing whether Toyota's suggested repair of sticky gas pedals will have any real impact. They are in a bit of a quandary, said Pecht, a professor at Maryland's Clark School of Engineering. If they announce that electronics is a problem, they are probably going to be in a lot of trouble, because nobody's going to drive the car. So at this stage, they don't want to announce there is any electronic problem. But according to Pecht, who is an expert in failure analysis and has written a book on sudden acceleration in automobiles, complicated electronics-not a mechanical issue with the gas pedal-lie at the heart of Toyota's problems. And three other independent safety analysts contacted by CNN also conclude that neither floor mats nor stuck gas pedals are an overwhelming issue. From what people have told me about their sudden acceleration incidents, most of them have got nothing to do with the sticking pedal at all, said Antony Anderson, an electronics consultant in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England. Anderson said electronic throttle controls, which largely have replaced mechanical accelerators, can malfunction in ways he compared to an occasionally disobedient child. We've all had that type of experience, and I'm afraid that is the sort of experience that can happen with any piece of electronics, with an electronic throttle, he said. Sean Kane, who runs a company called Safety Research Strategies in Rehoboth, MA, said, Toyota's explanations do not account for the share of unintended acceleration complaints that we have examined. Toyota officials dispute any assertion the complicated array of electronics in its cars has an impact on the acceleration issues that have dominated headlines in the past weeks. After many years of exhaustive testing by us and by other organizations, we have found no evidence of an electronic problem in our electronic throttle control systems that could have led to unwanted acceleration, said John Hanson, Toyota's spokesman on quality- control issues. But experts such as Anderson say the tests conducted by Toyota are not adequate. Those tests do not reproduce what actually happens in everyday life, he said. They are testing for certain conditions, for certain standards, but they test, for example, signals one at a time. They don't do a whole lot of signals altogether. Whereas in a car, you've got a great cacophony of electromagnetic interference going on all the time, and you really can't rely on testing of a single frequency at one time. As for the U.S. government's testing of Toyota's problems, the man in charge of the Center For Auto Safety, Clarence Ditlow, said a 2007 test on a Lexus-a Toyota brand-by the National Highway Safety and Traffic Administration to find possible electronic interference was amateurish. They didn't do any real testing, he said. For all I know, they just took a garage door opener, pointed it at the engine compartment and snapped it, and that's electronic interference to see whether or not anything happened. They closed the hood, and off they went. No problem. Efforts to contact the NHTSA in snow-bound Washington were unsuccessful. But Toyota spokesman Hanson said, It's very easy to look from outside and say, 'There is no problem with the pedal.' But this is the problem, and we are fixing it. He said the company invited further testing and pointed out that NHTSA officials announced a fresh look into the whole area of electromagnetic testing, not just Toyota. End quoted article, now back to my opinion: For at least 20 years, Toyota in the USA has been so arrogant: Dealers charging over sticker if you wanted one; ridiculous prices for a used one; salesmen to stop talking to you if you as
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:51 AM, John Reames jwrea...@comcast.net wrote: The mechanical linkage is dead, gone and unable to be resurrected;mandated traction control has seen to it. Ridiculous. The two have nothing to do with each other, though car company accountants and marketeers would probably like you to think otherwise. The electronic stability brain needs a couple of inputs and a couple of outputs. Inputs include pitch/yaw sensors, wheel speed, throttle position, and steering wheel position. Outputs can include engine power reduction, selective braking, and/or selective transfer of torque to a wheel or wheels. None of these require the computer to have control over the throttle. Engine power reduction can be accomplished by retarding timing, cutting spark to a cylinder (in the case of a gas engine), or cutting fuel to a cylinder (in diesels or in gassers). Selective transfer of torque among wheels can be accomplished by application of brakes to one wheel forcing torque to the other side on the same axle (given an open differential), or by electromagnetic clutch packs. None of this prevents manual control of the accelerator by the driver, including the ability to close the throttle completely (or stomp on the brakes!) to slow the car regardless of what the computers want to do. Electronic throttle control is an artifact of cost-cutting. It's cheaper to have one embedded computer controlling the entire car and connected to everything via fiber optic bundles than to have discrete electromechanical systems as in our beloved '80s Benzes. I am hoping that we don't see some sort of overreaction which brings parity between the QC (and QC regulations) of automobile parts/repairs andthose of airplanes. I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their work. And we trust our lives to these people every time we get in a modern car. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
How does one go about engine power reduction without having emissions violations when the accelerator is mechanical? I'm a compression ignition sort, but in efi gassers, doesn't the linkage go to a butterfly valve in the intake, and the ecu adjusts the mixture per sensory inputs so as to comply with emissions regulations? Doesn't leaning the mixture raise flame temperatures, increasing NOx emissions? With diesels, and a mechanically linked pump, you'd have to cut the airflow... Drastically increasing particulate emissions due to incomplete combustion (since diesels usually have excess air...). Having an electronic input (even via actuator) to a mechanically linked IP would throw in all sorts of reliability issues when compared to an electronically governed one... -- John W Reames jwrea...@comcast.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Feb 16, 2010, at 13:12, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:51 AM, John Reames jwrea...@comcast.net wrote: The mechanical linkage is dead, gone and unable to be resurrected;mandated traction control has seen to it. Ridiculous. The two have nothing to do with each other, though car company accountants and marketeers would probably like you to think otherwise. The electronic stability brain needs a couple of inputs and a couple of outputs. Inputs include pitch/yaw sensors, wheel speed, throttle position, and steering wheel position. Outputs can include engine power reduction, selective braking, and/or selective transfer of torque to a wheel or wheels. None of these require the computer to have control over the throttle. Engine power reduction can be accomplished by retarding timing, cutting spark to a cylinder (in the case of a gas engine), or cutting fuel to a cylinder (in diesels or in gassers). Selective transfer of torque among wheels can be accomplished by application of brakes to one wheel forcing torque to the other side on the same axle (given an open differential), or by electromagnetic clutch packs. None of this prevents manual control of the accelerator by the driver, including the ability to close the throttle completely (or stomp on the brakes!) to slow the car regardless of what the computers want to do. Electronic throttle control is an artifact of cost-cutting. It's cheaper to have one embedded computer controlling the entire car and connected to everything via fiber optic bundles than to have discrete electromechanical systems as in our beloved '80s Benzes. I am hoping that we don't see some sort of overreaction which brings parity between the QC (and QC regulations) of automobile parts/repairs andthose of airplanes. I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their work. And we trust our lives to these people every time we get in a modern car. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in Funny you should mention it, but in NC advertising the term engineer is restricted to those who are licensed. In fact, one of the duties of my Professional Engineer license (which is currently inactive, I feel obliged to mention :) is to turn in anyone who is not licensed and uses the term. I once drafted a letter citing one day's numerous Craigslist postings of MCSEngineers and software engineers, but didn't follow through. It seems to me that the PE licensing folks have done a reasonable job trying to incorporate computer engineering items into the license, or at least when I took the FE and PE in 2006 (2005?) there were a number of computer-specific things on the EE and general exams. However, I don't know if any current Computer Science curriculum would be adequate to train folks in the comprehensive questions, and I don't think the licensing board would be willing to overlook the knowledge deficiency. In any case, someone working as an engineer whose work affects the health and safety of the public - which I think would necessarily apply to an automotive programmer (but maybe not contractors?) - should already be required to be registered by the statutes in NC and presumably in most other places. I work in networking and could make a good argument for network equipment carrying similar weight, especially in medical applications, but of the 80+ people at my site only two of us have PEs, and neither of us is a system programmer. high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, True that. On the other hand licensure does not necessarily imply competence, or at least any greater than barely. It does indicate that the licensee has agreed to uphold the health and well-being of the public (at least in the NC PE case) so that is arguably better than someone who is willing to disregard the same. This, BTW, is why I don't work in construction. :) and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their A handful of standard software testing methods are accepted, but I don't know of -any- company with effective enforcement. -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
John Reames wrote: How does one go about engine power reduction without having emissions violations when the accelerator is mechanical? With my Achieva, it retards the timing. I don't even notice it, I'm too busy modulating the throttle to keep the tires lightly spinning in snow, then I look down and see the amber TRAC LOSS light and turn off the T/C so it will quit wasting gas. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Ah... Distributorless ignition? Does it have a cable that physically connects to a valve in the air intake? (My E300 has a cable, but it is connected to a sensor, likely a pair of redundant hall-effect sensors (as compared to a flimsy potentiometer... I will have to get a piccy sometimes, as well as part nuambers, it likely has Benz and bosch ones...) -- John W Reames jwrea...@comcast.net Home: +14106646986 Mobile: +14437915905 On Feb 16, 2010, at 16:11, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: John Reames wrote: How does one go about engine power reduction without having emissions violations when the accelerator is mechanical? With my Achieva, it retards the timing. I don't even notice it, I'm too busy modulating the throttle to keep the tires lightly spinning in snow, then I look down and see the amber TRAC LOSS light and turn off the T/C so it will quit wasting gas. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
John Reames wrote: Ah... Distributorless ignition? Yeah, I've got the 2.4L Twin Cam, sort of an upgraded Quad Four, with the Q-4's ignition coil roasting system. Throttle body is normal, with a cable to the foot pedal. Intake manifold is plastic, and now the thing refuses to idle below 1200rpm, so I suppose I've got to get out the propane torch and start looking for vacuum leaks, and maybe buy an idle air compensator if there aren't any leaks. If it were a stick, I'd just disable the IAC, but it's hard to keep a cold automatic running without a fast idle circuit. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Speaking of Toyotas and the engineering/construction decisions - you have to keep all of it in perspective: According to various reports, 19 deaths have been associated with Toyota's gas pedal problem over the past decade. But over the same decade, a total of 21,110 people have been killed in Toyota vehicles, with an additional 1,261 killed in Lexus cars (based on analyzing 1999-2008 fatality data from National Highway Traffic Safety Administrationhttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx). Almost none of these deaths had anything to do with technology, faulty or otherwise. Almost all of them were the result of driver behavior. http://www.slate.com/id/2244929/?from=rss -- OK Don Panic! (the national past time). ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Back is the days before the occupation software engineer existed, my brother received a BS in mechanical engineering and a MS in industrial engineering. In those days, such degrees were adequate credentials for a working engineer. Perhaps today other qualifications work for someone to be an engineer, and so perhaps licensing is a credential that should be required. The whole business is kinda confusing. Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Tim C Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:03 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in Funny you should mention it, but in NC advertising the term engineer is restricted to those who are licensed. In fact, one of the duties of my Professional Engineer license (which is currently inactive, I feel obliged to mention :) is to turn in anyone who is not licensed and uses the term. I once drafted a letter citing one day's numerous Craigslist postings of MCSEngineers and software engineers, but didn't follow through. It seems to me that the PE licensing folks have done a reasonable job trying to incorporate computer engineering items into the license, or at least when I took the FE and PE in 2006 (2005?) there were a number of computer-specific things on the EE and general exams. However, I don't know if any current Computer Science curriculum would be adequate to train folks in the comprehensive questions, and I don't think the licensing board would be willing to overlook the knowledge deficiency. In any case, someone working as an engineer whose work affects the health and safety of the public - which I think would necessarily apply to an automotive programmer (but maybe not contractors?) - should already be required to be registered by the statutes in NC and presumably in most other places. I work in networking and could make a good argument for network equipment carrying similar weight, especially in medical applications, but of the 80+ people at my site only two of us have PEs, and neither of us is a system programmer. high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, True that. On the other hand licensure does not necessarily imply competence, or at least any greater than barely. It does indicate that the licensee has agreed to uphold the health and well-being of the public (at least in the NC PE case) so that is arguably better than someone who is willing to disregard the same. This, BTW, is why I don't work in construction. :) and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their A handful of standard software testing methods are accepted, but I don't know of -any- company with effective enforcement. -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
You know, that is really interesting. Around here some forces are trying to build a new road. They keep saying there is a problem with the existing roads -- the roads are dangerous. But if you look at crash and death data, the injuries and crashes and fatalities are due to inattentive driving, tailgating, drunkeness, and other stupid behaviors. I say, address the stupid behavior with education or actual law enforcement, and lets see how that works, before spending 10$ of million$ on a new road. But the politicians just don't seem to get that, they want to build new roads to accommodate the same bad behaviors. --R OK Don wrote: Speaking of Toyotas and the engineering/construction decisions - you have to keep all of it in perspective: According to various reports, 19 deaths have been associated with Toyota's gas pedal problem over the past decade. But over the same decade, a total of 21,110 people have been killed in Toyota vehicles, with an additional 1,261 killed in Lexus cars (based on analyzing 1999-2008 fatality data from National Highway Traffic Safety Administrationhttp://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx). Almost none of these deaths had anything to do with technology, faulty or otherwise. Almost all of them were the result of driver behavior. http://www.slate.com/id/2244929/?from=rss ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
If you follow the money, I think you'll find that dangerous is a smoke screen - someone will gain considerable money form the new road. On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: You know, that is really interesting. Around here some forces are trying to build a new road. They keep saying there is a problem with the existing roads -- the roads are dangerous. But if you look at crash and death data, the injuries and crashes and fatalities are due to inattentive driving, tailgating, drunkeness, and other stupid behaviors. I say, address the stupid behavior with education or actual law enforcement, and lets see how that works, before spending 10$ of million$ on a new road. But the politicians just don't seem to get that, they want to build new roads to accommodate the same bad behaviors. --R -- OK Don Panic! (the national past time). ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
--R wrote: But if you look at crash and death data, the injuries and crashes and fatalities are due to inattentive driving, tailgating, drunkeness, and other stupid behaviors. I don't think that there is any way of getting rid of stupid. Perhaps a driver license should not be such a rite of passage between teenage and young adult, and perhaps most people really should not drive. i.e. more car pool, etc. - or like you, rid a bike. Too many drivers on the road that don't need to be there, plus, they have no attention being given to actual driving, on the whole. The issue of toyota is a shame, as there may be some small manufacturing error, but it seems the larger issue is the lack of carefulness in knowing how to operate the equipment and general inattentiveness. Hey, toyota is a big boy - they will do fine. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
AND NONE of this prevents a plain old fashioned key switch or big red button emergency kill switch to shut down the whole freakin electronic mess when it goes whacko On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:51 AM, John Reames jwrea...@comcast.net wrote: The mechanical linkage is dead, gone and unable to be resurrected;mandated traction control has seen to it. Ridiculous. The two have nothing to do with each other, though car company accountants and marketeers would probably like you to think otherwise. The electronic stability brain needs a couple of inputs and a couple of outputs. Inputs include pitch/yaw sensors, wheel speed, throttle position, and steering wheel position. Outputs can include engine power reduction, selective braking, and/or selective transfer of torque to a wheel or wheels. None of these require the computer to have control over the throttle. Engine power reduction can be accomplished by retarding timing, cutting spark to a cylinder (in the case of a gas engine), or cutting fuel to a cylinder (in diesels or in gassers). Selective transfer of torque among wheels can be accomplished by application of brakes to one wheel forcing torque to the other side on the same axle (given an open differential), or by electromagnetic clutch packs. None of this prevents manual control of the accelerator by the driver, including the ability to close the throttle completely (or stomp on the brakes!) to slow the car regardless of what the computers want to do. Electronic throttle control is an artifact of cost-cutting. It's cheaper to have one embedded computer controlling the entire car and connected to everything via fiber optic bundles than to have discrete electromechanical systems as in our beloved '80s Benzes. I am hoping that we don't see some sort of overreaction which brings parity between the QC (and QC regulations) of automobile parts/repairs andthose of airplanes. I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their work. And we trust our lives to these people every time we get in a modern car. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
OK Don wrote: Speaking of Toyotas and the engineering/construction decisions - you have to keep all of it in perspective: According to various reports, 19 deaths have been associated with Toyota's gas pedal problem over the past decade. I think the total was recently 34, with 13 having been reported in the last few weeks after all the publicity hit the media. Apparently it's based on consumer complaints. I would have assumed that the police could report traffic deaths to the NHSTA and we wouldn't be waiting for somebody to tell them that Aunt Sadie died in a Camry 8 years ago... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703562404575068044097199852.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
OK Don wrote: Almost none of these deaths had anything to do with technology, faulty or otherwise. Almost all of them were the result of driver behavior. http://www.slate.com/id/2244929/?from=rss Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Former regulators hired by Toyota Motor Corp. helped end at least four U.S. investigations of unintended acceleration by company vehicles in the last decade, warding off possible recalls, court and government records show. Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota’s Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA, Tinto in 1994 and Santucci in 2003. While all automakers have employees who handle NHTSA issues, Toyota may be alone among the major companies in employing former agency staffers to do so. Spokesmen for General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Honda Motor Co. all say their companies have no ex-NHTSA people who deal with the agency on defects. Possible links between Toyota and NHTSA may fuel mounting criticism of their handling of defects in Toyota and Lexus models tied to 19 deaths between 2004 and 2009. Three congressional committees have scheduled hearings on the recalls. “Toyota bamboozled NHTSA or NHTSA was bamboozled by itself,” said Joan Claybrook, an auto safety advocate and former NHTSA administrator in the Jimmy Carter administration. “I think there is going to be a lot of heat on NHTSA over this.” ‘Discussed Scope’ In one example of the Toyota aides’ role, Santucci testified in a Michigan lawsuit that the company and NHTSA discussed limiting an examination of unintended acceleration complaints to incidents lasting less than a second. “We discussed the scope” of the investigation, Santucci testified. “NHTSA’s concerns about the scope ultimately led to a decision by the agency to reduce that scope. You say it worked out well for Toyota, I think it worked out well for both the agency and Toyota.” In an e-mailed response to questions about possible influence of former NHTSA employees on agency Toyota decisions, Transportation Department spokeswoman Olivia Alair said NHTSA “currently has three open investigations involving Toyota and is monitoring two major safety recalls involving Toyota vehicles. NHTSA’s record reflects that safety is its singular priority.” Pedals, Floor Mats Toyota City, Japan-based Toyota on Jan. 21 recalled 2.3 million U.S. cars and trucks with a potentially defective accelerator pedals. That followed Toyota’s decision in November to recall 4.48 million vehicles in the U.S. and Canada because floor mats might trap gas pedals while they were depressed. Since that recall, Toyota’s shares have dropped 17 percent, wiping out $27.7 billion in market capitalization. The stock rose 2 percent to 3,460 yen at the close of trading in Tokyo today. Toyota’s American depositary receipts, each equal to two ordinary shares, rose 22 cents to $76.22 at 10:15 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Combined worldwide recalls for pedals, floor mats and a software fix to adjust brakes on the Prius and other hybrid models rose to more than 8 million vehicles as of Feb. 8. “A recall is bad for any automaker because they have to admit there’s a defect in their vehicle and the repairs can be expensive,” said Rebecca Lindland, a forecaster at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. ‘Pillars of Safety’ In Toyota’s case, “the company has built itself on pillars of safety, quality and reliability,” she said. “A defect in their product is appalling to them, sort of unthinkable.” All four of the probes the Toyota aides helped end were into complaints that the unintended acceleration was caused by flaws in the vehicles’ electronic throttle systems. Toyota has denied that the system is a problem. U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said on Feb. 3 that NHTSA is reviewing the electronics. Toyota spokeswoman Martha Voss declined to make Santucci and Tinto available for comment. “Anything Mr. Tinto and Mr. Santucci did was in the interest of full disclosure, transparency and openness with regulators and safety experts,” Voss said in an e-mailed statement. “Their actions have been consistent with our efforts to maintain the highest professional and ethical standards in all of our legal and regulatory practices. Their paramount concern was for the safety of every single owner of one of our vehicles.” ‘Sort of Deteriorates’ The NHTSA decisions on Toyota weren’t necessarily biased just because former agency people were involved, said Sidney Shapiro, a law professor at Wake Forest University in Winston- Salem, North Carolina. “I’m not sure regulators set out to
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
No, consider that money and control are involved, and it becomes quite clear. --R Greg Fiorentino wrote: Back is the days before the occupation software engineer existed, my brother received a BS in mechanical engineering and a MS in industrial engineering. In those days, such degrees were adequate credentials for a working engineer. Perhaps today other qualifications work for someone to be an engineer, and so perhaps licensing is a credential that should be required. The whole business is kinda confusing. Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Tim C Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 1:03 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote: I'm much more interested in seeing some kind of mandatory licensing based on competence for software engineers. Anyone who has worked in Funny you should mention it, but in NC advertising the term engineer is restricted to those who are licensed. In fact, one of the duties of my Professional Engineer license (which is currently inactive, I feel obliged to mention :) is to turn in anyone who is not licensed and uses the term. I once drafted a letter citing one day's numerous Craigslist postings of MCSEngineers and software engineers, but didn't follow through. It seems to me that the PE licensing folks have done a reasonable job trying to incorporate computer engineering items into the license, or at least when I took the FE and PE in 2006 (2005?) there were a number of computer-specific things on the EE and general exams. However, I don't know if any current Computer Science curriculum would be adequate to train folks in the comprehensive questions, and I don't think the licensing board would be willing to overlook the knowledge deficiency. In any case, someone working as an engineer whose work affects the health and safety of the public - which I think would necessarily apply to an automotive programmer (but maybe not contractors?) - should already be required to be registered by the statutes in NC and presumably in most other places. I work in networking and could make a good argument for network equipment carrying similar weight, especially in medical applications, but of the 80+ people at my site only two of us have PEs, and neither of us is a system programmer. high-tech knows that the majority of programmers are barely competent, True that. On the other hand licensure does not necessarily imply competence, or at least any greater than barely. It does indicate that the licensee has agreed to uphold the health and well-being of the public (at least in the NC PE case) so that is arguably better than someone who is willing to disregard the same. This, BTW, is why I don't work in construction. :) and that there are no accepted or enforced standards for testing their A handful of standard software testing methods are accepted, but I don't know of -any- company with effective enforcement. -Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Well, yeah, that too, but the smoke is what is being blown up everyone's, uh, noses. Can't see the forest for the smoke, or the trees for the fire, or something like that, so you have to blow your own smoke. --R (community agitator, I hear there might be a future in that?) OK Don wrote: If you follow the money, I think you'll find that dangerous is a smoke screen - someone will gain considerable money form the new road. On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:07 PM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: You know, that is really interesting. Around here some forces are trying to build a new road. They keep saying there is a problem with the existing roads -- the roads are dangerous. But if you look at crash and death data, the injuries and crashes and fatalities are due to inattentive driving, tailgating, drunkeness, and other stupid behaviors. I say, address the stupid behavior with education or actual law enforcement, and lets see how that works, before spending 10$ of million$ on a new road. But the politicians just don't seem to get that, they want to build new roads to accommodate the same bad behaviors. --R ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Yeah, I agree -- too many people out there who do not really have appropriate driving skills. My sister had to get a German driver's license on their last tour over there (90 - 93) -- took twice through driving school and three tries, and she is a pretty good driver. However, since we have no mass transit, and live now in cities (or 'burbs) that REQUIRE a car to get to work, it's sorta difficult to take them away, people would be out of work. And even then, you have someone who just isn't looking at that critical moment, like the guy who hit me a couple years ago -- not imparted, not a bad driver at all, just obliviated the light, as we all have done once in a while, and I was there. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
All you need for throttle reduction (and fuel cutoff works almost as well) is the spring loaded system MB used in the W126. Mehcanical throttle with a servo that can push it shut against a sprung rod, works pretty well. Since it only closes the throttle, it cannot stick open. There are several other ways to make it work, including using the stop light filaments as the ground for the throttle servo circuit. When the stop lamps are on, the control circuit goes dead. Any system that allow unintended throttle opening is faulty, they really have to be failsafe. This is why the throttle spring is on the throttle, not the dash -- that way if the linkage breaks, the throttle goes closed instead of falling wide open. Very expensive over-reliance on very complex electronics for very marginal results. I cannot be convinced that active traction control does much that a minimally competent driver can do. Antilock brakes are great, but individual wheel speed control to keep an SUV from falling over is B...sh... The only thing that's gonna keep a vehicle from rolling over in a minor accident, as all SUVs and Minivans do, is to lower the center of gravity about 18. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Mitch, Thanks for posting facts! Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations Feb. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Former regulators hired by Toyota Motor Corp. helped end at least four U.S. investigations of unintended acceleration by company vehicles in the last decade, warding off possible recalls, court and government records show. Christopher Tinto, vice president of regulatory affairs in Toyota's Washington office, and Christopher Santucci, who works for Tinto, helped persuade the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to end probes including those of 2002-2003 Toyota Camrys and Solaras, court documents show. Both men joined Toyota directly from NHTSA, Tinto in 1994 and Santucci in 2003. While all automakers have employees who handle NHTSA issues, Toyota may be alone among the major companies in employing former agency staffers to do so. Spokesmen for General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Group LLC and Honda Motor Co. all say their companies have no ex-NHTSA people who deal with the agency on defects. Possible links between Toyota and NHTSA may fuel mounting criticism of their handling of defects in Toyota and Lexus models tied to 19 deaths between 2004 and 2009. Three congressional committees have scheduled hearings on the recalls. Toyota bamboozled NHTSA or NHTSA was bamboozled by itself, said Joan Claybrook, an auto safety advocate and former NHTSA administrator in the Jimmy Carter administration. I think there is going to be a lot of heat on NHTSA over this. 'Discussed Scope' In one example of the Toyota aides' role, Santucci testified in a Michigan lawsuit that the company and NHTSA discussed limiting an examination of unintended acceleration complaints to incidents lasting less than a second. We discussed the scope of the investigation, Santucci testified. NHTSA's concerns about the scope ultimately led to a decision by the agency to reduce that scope. You say it worked out well for Toyota, I think it worked out well for both the agency and Toyota. In an e-mailed response to questions about possible influence of former NHTSA employees on agency Toyota decisions, Transportation Department spokeswoman Olivia Alair said NHTSA currently has three open investigations involving Toyota and is monitoring two major safety recalls involving Toyota vehicles. NHTSA's record reflects that safety is its singular priority. Pedals, Floor Mats Toyota City, Japan-based Toyota on Jan. 21 recalled 2.3 million U.S. cars and trucks with a potentially defective accelerator pedals. That followed Toyota's decision in November to recall 4.48 million vehicles in the U.S. and Canada because floor mats might trap gas pedals while they were depressed. Since that recall, Toyota's shares have dropped 17 percent, wiping out $27.7 billion in market capitalization. The stock rose 2 percent to 3,460 yen at the close of trading in Tokyo today. Toyota's American depositary receipts, each equal to two ordinary shares, rose 22 cents to $76.22 at 10:15 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Combined worldwide recalls for pedals, floor mats and a software fix to adjust brakes on the Prius and other hybrid models rose to more than 8 million vehicles as of Feb. 8. A recall is bad for any automaker because they have to admit there's a defect in their vehicle and the repairs can be expensive, said Rebecca Lindland, a forecaster at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. 'Pillars of Safety' In Toyota's case, the company has built itself on pillars of safety, quality and reliability, she said. A defect in their product is appalling to them, sort of unthinkable. All four of the probes the Toyota aides helped end were into complaints that the unintended acceleration was caused by flaws in the vehicles' electronic throttle systems. Toyota has denied that the system is a problem. U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said on Feb. 3 that NHTSA is reviewing the electronics. Toyota spokeswoman Martha Voss declined to make Santucci and Tinto available for comment. Anything Mr. Tinto and Mr. Santucci did was in the interest of full disclosure, transparency and openness with regulators and safety experts, Voss said in an e-mailed statement. Their actions have been consistent with our efforts to maintain the highest professional and ethical standards in all of our legal and regulatory practices. Their paramount concern was for the safety of every single owner of one of our vehicles. 'Sort of Deteriorates' The NHTSA decisions on Toyota weren't necessarily biased just because former agency people were involved, said Sidney Shapiro, a law professor at Wake Forest University in Winston- Salem, North Carolina. I'm not sure regulators set out to say 'I'm going to give a special deal to my old friends in the auto industry,' he said. But what happens is it just sort of deteriorates because these are the only people
Re: [MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com writes: Too many drivers on the road that don't need to be there, plus, they have no attention being given to actual driving, on the whole. Recent crash reported in the local paper, 19 year old girl driving a Ford Focus crossed left of center and hit a Dodge Durango head on. Girl was trapped in her car, Durango passengers hospitalized. Crash report is not final but there was no indication of intoxication. Speculation is that she was texting. Allan -- 1983 300D ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] more reasons not to be in a Toada
To add to the prior post, the article below was also sent out by ASQ (American Society for Quality) Friends don't let friends drive toadas You stand a good chance of ending up incinerated. It was sickening to hear about a bright outgoing 20 year old girl being incinerated so badly that it took two weeks just to identify the remains, simply because she was driving a new toada. Experts Say Recalls May Not Solve Problem CNN.com February 10, 2010 In his hectic, noisy laboratory at the University of Maryland, Michael Pecht is wary when it comes to assessing whether Toyota's suggested repair of sticky gas pedals will have any real impact. They are in a bit of a quandary, said Pecht, a professor at Maryland's Clark School of Engineering. If they announce that electronics is a problem, they are probably going to be in a lot of trouble, because nobody's going to drive the car. So at this stage, they don't want to announce there is any electronic problem. But according to Pecht, who is an expert in failure analysis and has written a book on sudden acceleration in automobiles, complicated electronics-not a mechanical issue with the gas pedal-lie at the heart of Toyota's problems. And three other independent safety analysts contacted by CNN also conclude that neither floor mats nor stuck gas pedals are an overwhelming issue. From what people have told me about their sudden acceleration incidents, most of them have got nothing to do with the sticking pedal at all, said Antony Anderson, an electronics consultant in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England. Anderson said electronic throttle controls, which largely have replaced mechanical accelerators, can malfunction in ways he compared to an occasionally disobedient child. We've all had that type of experience, and I'm afraid that is the sort of experience that can happen with any piece of electronics, with an electronic throttle, he said. Sean Kane, who runs a company called Safety Research Strategies in Rehoboth, MA, said, Toyota's explanations do not account for the share of unintended acceleration complaints that we have examined. Toyota officials dispute any assertion the complicated array of electronics in its cars has an impact on the acceleration issues that have dominated headlines in the past weeks. After many years of exhaustive testing by us and by other organizations, we have found no evidence of an electronic problem in our electronic throttle control systems that could have led to unwanted acceleration, said John Hanson, Toyota's spokesman on quality-control issues. But experts such as Anderson say the tests conducted by Toyota are not adequate. Those tests do not reproduce what actually happens in everyday life, he said. They are testing for certain conditions, for certain standards, but they test, for example, signals one at a time. They don't do a whole lot of signals altogether. Whereas in a car, you've got a great cacophony of electromagnetic interference going on all the time, and you really can't rely on testing of a single frequency at one time. As for the U.S. government's testing of Toyota's problems, the man in charge of the Center For Auto Safety, Clarence Ditlow, said a 2007 test on a Lexus-a Toyota brand-by the National Highway Safety and Traffic Administration to find possible electronic interference was amateurish. They didn't do any real testing, he said. For all I know, they just took a garage door opener, pointed it at the engine compartment and snapped it, and that's electronic interference to see whether or not anything happened. They closed the hood, and off they went. No problem. Efforts to contact the NHTSA in snow-bound Washington were unsuccessful. But Toyota spokesman Hanson said, It's very easy to look from outside and say, 'There is no problem with the pedal.' But this is the problem, and we are fixing it. He said the company invited further testing and pointed out that NHTSA officials announced a fresh look into the whole area of electromagnetic testing, not just Toyota. End quoted article, now back to my opinion: For at least 20 years, Toyota in the USA has been so arrogant: Dealers charging over sticker if you wanted one; ridiculous prices for a used one; salesmen to stop talking to you if you as a technical question and don't just follow the sheeple and sayoh! I've gotta have one! etc. In a way, I am glad to see them get their comeuppance. The heart of the matter is the same as the airbus: fly by wire systems malfunction, and people die un-necessarily. When I first heard about the recall, I was not too concerned. Now that the evidence is being brought to light, it shows arrogance on the part of toada in avoiding even a serious investigation into the problem. It also shows the ineptness of federal bureaucracy. This article is particularly disturbing because it indicates the recall is window dressing and does nothing to address the root cause. In light
