Re: Preferences--Where to Locate
Sivakatirswami at wrote: For all the difficulty and cross platform issues I think I will need, given my skill level, to stick with writing preferences to a data folder in the directory containing the engine. Many mainstream applications do employ this strategy. The cool thing is that the oddball OS, Mac, seems to be migrating this way. with "packages", introduces in OS 9 and playing a big role in OS X, I would expect this approach to become more common. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716 Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: Re a little mention...
andu wrote: Peter Reid at wrote: He clearly believes that MetaCard is a powerful tool somewhat let down by its current user interface in two respects - a) the interface presented to the developer, and b) its lack of complete adherence to Mac U-I guidelines. Apple ? The SK8 and Hypercard owner/killer ? The "Next" and "WebObjects" U-I guideline one ? The interface presented to the developer... give me a break. Best applications are most likely built in environments with no interface. Trouble is mac users/developers (at least the ones reading MacUser) must relay on editors who are either too superficial or ignorant of developers' *real* needs or too involved in politics to give them the real picture. Sorry friends ! Are we the lonely ones - with you, Andu - to get no trouble with the MC GUI ? A $10k facelift to MC would save more than $100k in sales. Easy. I know of more than a few projects which are being done in Director at considerably greater expense than if they were done in MetaCard, but the choice was made primarily because MetaCard's interface gives the impression that the company "doesn't take its non-UNIX target platforms seriously", or "doesn't expect to live long enough" to be worth a 10k facelift. One comment I hear often is, "If it's so easy to make multi-platform UI's, how come the vendor can't do it?" I know, as you know, that such judgements are unfair and completely overlook the tremendous value of the incredible MetaCard engine. But they persist, and cannot be dismissed if the product is to be successful. We lose a fair amount of work as a result of MetaCard's market perception. I hate Director's dueling metaphors, its misleading pricing, and its support (nothing on this planet matches Scott Raney when it comes to support). Just the same, we have considered moving some projects to Director just to stay in the game. You can't lead a horse to water if the water is too muddy. I want MetaCard to be wildly successful. What can we do to help its market perception? Perhaps a complete GPL web browser to get the best of the web technologies (tcp/ip, http, ftp,smtp...), the web applications and databases connecting (including a native odbc/sql client), the networking and multimedia abilities of MC, this all at once and with a total transparency of our browser tool (natively multi-plateform, entierely metatalk based, built to avoid the need of some so poor and inusables technologies like both javascript, java-applets, xml, wml, etc... and, even, wy not, html it-self... Andu, Richard, Sivakatirswami, Kevin, Scott,... ? Could we not go together in this way... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716 Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list. Regards, Andu __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list. Regards, Pierre Sahores WEB, DB, B2B ASP design. There are contrys where people have six fingers because they don't know the metric system. Sir Jean Yanne Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: putting a stack on a homepage
On 24/7/00 2:55 pm, Blair Moxon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow...this is news to me. Couldn't this kind of information be included in the help file? I poked around with MC as a helper app some time ago but gave up as I couldn't get it configured properly. Could someone (Kevin or Scott) please provide a response to Nicolas's question below. I hate to sound like a broken record, but webifying MC is probably the most important thing that could happen to boost its profile. Someone should write a clear, detailed description of how MC can work with the web (presently) and post it on a web page. The only thing I have found is a couple of paragraphs with a general overview written in 'codespeak'. What is needed is a user's guide or "MetaCard and the Web for Dummies" (sorry but I find the sample description posted below cryptic at best - and I thought I knew DOS inside out!). Thanks, Unfortunately, I don't actually know how to configure MetaCard for the modern web browsers on all platforms. Its on my list to find out how to do, so instructions will happen at some point, but that is a rather long list right now. My guess is that it should easy enough for someone with a little time to figure out how to do it. If anyone does, please drop a copy of the instructions my way! ;-) Kevin Blair Moxon Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited (formerly Cross Worlds Computing). Tel: +44 (0)131 672 2909. Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: Binary files/data
On 24/7/00 4:16 pm, James Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the trick to working with binary data in MetaCard? It's easy enough to open a binary file and read in the data and then open another binary file for write to write out the data but how do you manipulate the data once you've read it in? Let's say I want to bitAnd every byte with 254 or change every 16th word to all zeros, for example. Will MetaCard do this? It should be easy enough: just don't put the data into a field at any point or it will get converted to text! ;-) Check out the bitwise operators in the reference for bitAnd, and also the charToNum / numToChar and itemDel entries. You need to be careful what type of repeat loop you use on the data. If there is a small amount of data, you can get away with repeat with i = 1 to the number of chars, altering char i in the original data. If there is even a moderate amount of data though, this is not going to be so efficient as this method will search from the beginning of the string each time. So you need to rebuild the container by using repeat for each char c. E.g.: put empty into tFinalData --not strictly required, but included for clarity repeat for each char c in tFileData -- do something to c here, e.g. with bitAnd put c after tFinalData end repeat --tFinalData now contains the replaced text Regards, Kevin Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited (formerly Cross Worlds Computing). Tel: +44 (0)131 672 2909. Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
post vs put vs ?sockets? for http
Title: post vs put vs ?sockets? for http I have a problem that I haven't been able to solve, and I thought--again, since I've posted a brief version of a part of this issue before--that perhaps someone on the list might be able to help. And sorry I had to make it so long-winded Problem: I have a dual server configuration where a dedicated slave server (500 Mhz G4 Mac) is giving database services by being directly connected to a database-application/internet server (NT dual 700 Mhz Dell) listening for WAN/http calls for data. MC is a custom browser asking for db record data. While in a true WAN environment, approximately 5-10% of my MC-generated post calls never generate a return from the http server, even though the database records being called for are clearly found and delivered to the NT (as apparent in the db application's found records status when looking at the NT server directly). Netscape/IE _never_ fail to generate returns when we query the db through the web, which throws some suspicion on MC. Details are: I am using post commands similar to one provided below to communicate through lasso (CGI application from BlueWorld) with FileMaker Pro application/database located on the web/db servers. FileMaker Pro database is used as a back end for my MetaCard stacks on the client machines. I moved this configuration to a relatively quite LAN with very good bandwidth for benchwork evaluations and the failures still persist, only at about a .5-1% rate instead of the 5-10% rate. I am still evaluating setups and all that jazz on the NT to see if the NT is the problem, but still have to wonder whether MC is in any way at fault or can be used to generate a work-around solution. For example, if MC just didn't hang when the response doesn't come back in, I could check for returned results, if finding empty-- re-send the query and go on. OK. I did a little experimenting and it appears that instead of using the post command I may use a put command as well. This means that instead of post -database=Students.fp3-layout=FirstStep-response=Field:'gbRespOne'-recordI D=48-search to url http://##. ##. ##. #/FMP_MC/Action.lasso (of course a real IP nbr goes where ##'s are) I can simply use put url http://##. ##. ##. #/FMP_MC/action.lasso?-database=Students.fp3-layout=Firs tStep-response=Field:'gbRespOne'-recordID=48-search into fld report with the same result. Now, I haven't had the luxury yet of testing whether this improves on the percentage of unreturned calls, but the following issue comes up regardless: If I recall various sources of information correctly, Scott has suggested that MC is likely to lose the post command from the next version of MC in favor of socket-level coding. Scott -- is this correct? If so, is the put url also likely to go? Is there a difference in how they work underneath? But more importantly. because I only partly understand the mechanics of using sockets-level programming for http, as opposed to post/put commands, I would like to offer the following question to the list in hopes that you all can give me some more clues about sockets. Q1) If it is the case that post is untrustworthy or about to become extinct, then what will be the socket equivalent of the following post command? post -Database=Students.fp3-layout=LayoutNameHere-Response=ResponseFileNameHere Social_Security=333444333-search to url http://##. ##. ##. #/Action.lasso This Post command will search for #333444333 in Social Security field in Students database and, through a response file, return the student's first name, last name etc. >From a browser's perspective the HTML equivalent of post command above (in the form of the web link) will be: A HREF=action.lasso?-database=Students.fp3-layout=Details-response=Studen tInfo.lassoSocial_Security=333444333-searchClick this link to retrieve students Information/A So, the number 1 Qustion really is what will be the socket equivalent of the following post command? post -Database=Students.fp3-layout=LayoutNameHere-Response=ResponseFileNameHere Social_Security=333444333-search to url http://##. ##. ##. #/Action.lasso Q2 through 5) Why are socket-level solutions, when finally written, likely to be more reliable? Are they truly more flexible? Why is the required programmer's knowledge load being moved from built-in to build-your-own with these improvements? Will this level offer, for example, one to trap a failed return so a call can be reissued? This is a complex mix of MC rules and http rules that I'm trying to get a handle on and somehow haven't yet fully grasped. And I am willing to try to learn it if it really will solve my problem. Where can I start? I suspect we have a few really savvy internet MC developers out there who can help, if not by explanations at least by offering working examples, and any help would be greatly appreciated, either on or off list. Thanks, Roger -- Dr. Roger D. Ray Department of Psychology Rollins College
Re: post vs put vs ?sockets? for
I have a problem that I haven't been able to solve, and I thought--again, since I've posted a brief version of a part of this issue before--that perhaps someone on the list might be able to help. And sorry I had to make it so long-winded Problem: I have a dual server configuration where a dedicated "slave" server (500 Mhz G4 Mac) is giving database services by being directly connected to a database-application/internet server (NT dual 700 Mhz Dell) listening for WAN/http calls for data. MC is a custom browser asking for db record data. While in a true WAN environment, approximately 5-10% of my MC-generated "post" calls never generate a return from the http server, even though the database records being called for are clearly found and delivered to the NT (as apparent in the db application's "found records" status when looking at the NT server directly). Netscape/IE _never_ fail to generate returns when we query the db through the web, which throws some suspicion on MC. Details are: I am using post commands similar to one provided below to communicate through lasso (CGI application from BlueWorld) with FileMaker Pro application/database located on the web/db servers. FileMaker Pro database is used as a back end for my MetaCard stacks on the client machines. I moved this configuration to a relatively quite LAN with very good bandwidth for benchwork evaluations and the failures still persist, only at about a .5-1% rate instead of the 5-10% rate. I am still evaluating setups and all that jazz on the NT to see if the NT is the problem, but still have to wonder whether MC is in any way at fault or can be used to generate a "work-around" solution. For example, if MC just didn't "hang" when the response doesn't come back in, I could check for returned results, if finding empty-- re-send the query and go on. OK. I did a little experimenting and it appears that instead of using the "post" command I may use a "put" command as well. This means that instead of post "-database=Students.fp3-layout=FirstStep-response=Field:'gbRespOne'-recor dI D=48-search" to url "http://##. ##. ##. #/FMP_MC/Action.lasso" (of course a real IP nbr goes where ##'s are) I can simply use put url "http://##. ##. ##. #/FMP_MC/action.lasso?-database=Students.fp3-layout=Firs tStep-response=Field:'gbRespOne'-recordID=48-search" into fld "report" with the same result. Now, I haven't had the luxury yet of testing whether this improves on the percentage of unreturned calls, but the following issue comes up regardless: If I recall various sources of information correctly, Scott has suggested that MC is likely to lose the "post" command from the next version of MC in favor of socket-level coding. Scott -- is this correct? If so, is the "put url" also likely to go? Is there a difference in how they work underneath? But more importantly. because I only partly understand the mechanics of using "sockets-level" programming for http, as opposed to post/put commands, I would like to offer the following question to the list in hopes that you all can give me some more clues about "sockets." Q1) If it is the case that "post" is untrustworthy or about to become extinct, then what will be the "socket" equivalent of the following post command? It's really not that scary. The higher level of control/monitoring over what is going on makes it worth learning. In your example you would do something like this: open socket xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:80 ##open connection to the server on port 80 write stuff to socket xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:80 ##write the POST stuff just like a browser would read from socket xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:80 until eof ## get the result from the server. put it into var1 A while back I answered a similar post with *real* examples, look through the archives for this month or the one before. I would also suspect the other side - server+lasso. I would also try POSTing the whole header just like a browser would. There is a mac tool OTSessioWatcher by Stairways which allows you to follow what exactly is sent and received in a network communication which can show you what a browser sends and what the server replies. post "-Database=Students.fp3-layout=LayoutNameHere-Response=ResponseFileNameHer e Social_Security=333444333-search" to url "http://##. ##. ##. #/Action.lasso" This Post command will search for #333444333 in Social Security field in Students database and, through a response file, return the student's first name, last name etc. From a browser's perspective the HTML equivalent of post command above (in the form of the web link) will be: A HREF="action.lasso?-database=Students.fp3-layout=Details-response=Studen tInfo.lassoSocial_Security=333444333-search"Click this link to retrieve students Information/A So, the number 1 Qustion really is what will be the "socket" equivalent of the following post command? post "-Database=Students.fp3-layout=LayoutNameHere-Response=ResponseFileNameHer e
Mac file types
Is it possible to determine the type of a file on the MacOS? I have tried looking in the help docs and in the archives. I did find where Scott mentioned that you had to check if files had a certain type, but I can't figure out how this could be done. I know how to filter the answer file dialog to only show certain types of files, but I would like to filter the file list before displaying it to the user in the application I'm working on. I can use the filter command to check for certain text in the file name, but can't come up with a way to determine the Mac OS file type of individual files. Can this be done? Dave Tremmel -- * David Tremmel Assistant Director, Phytotron Duke University Phytotron Bldg. Box 90340 Durham, NC 27708-0340 Phone: (919) 660-7415 FAX:(919) 660-7425 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
System font
I saw this asked before but no answer was ever given: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. It's the Mac interface I particularly need to know. When designing custom dialogs, it is important that certain buttons display in the user's selected system font. Can I get this info? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay| [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Custom hypermedia solutions | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 612.724.1596 | 612.724.1562 - fax Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: Re a little mention...
He clearly believes that MetaCard is a powerful tool somewhat let down by its current user interface in two respects - a) the interface presented to the developer, and b) its lack of complete adherence to Mac U-I guidelines. The interface presented to the developer... give me a break. Best applications are most likely built in environments with no interface. no interface? wtf? there is *no* software without an interface. if there was, you couldn't do anything with it. DOS has an interface, too. even your car stereo has an interface. everything you use has one. but MetaCard's Interface is truly the one thing that keeps it from getting accepted more widely, especially on the mac side of things. and there are lots of mac users who are still searching for a replacement for hypercard. If those mac users want to use most of what they already know and accept getting used to a different development environment they should look no farther. lucas Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list. Regards, Andu __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
On 25/7/00 7:03 pm, Jacqueline Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw this asked before but no answer was ever given: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. It's the Mac interface I particularly need to know. When designing custom dialogs, it is important that certain buttons display in the user's selected system font. Can I get this info? At present, a good solution to this particluar problem isn't present. On the Mac you can kludge it by setting the font to a non-existant face name which will use the large system font. On Windows, you can read the font from the Registry. Regards, Kevin Jacqueline Landman Gay| [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Custom hypermedia solutions | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 612.724.1596 | 612.724.1562 - fax Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution Limited (formerly Cross Worlds Computing). Tel: +44 (0)131 672 2909. Fax: +44 (0)1639 830 707. Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Kevin Miller wrote: On 25/7/00 7:03 pm, Jacqueline Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When designing custom dialogs, it is important that certain buttons display in the user's selected system font. Can I get this info? At present, a good solution to this particluar problem isn't present. On the Mac you can kludge it by setting the font to a non-existant face name which will use the large system font. On Windows, you can read the font from the Registry. Thanks Kevin. Unfortunately, the default font MC supplies is the small system font on a Mac (Geneva) which is a pretty good choice for most fields, but isn't right for buttons. Those need the menu font. :( Scott: Feature request? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay| [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Custom hypermedia solutions | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 612.724.1596 | 612.724.1562 - fax Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Jacqueline Landman Gay at wrote: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. Set the font to 0 (zero) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716 Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Richard Gaskin wrote: Jacqueline Landman Gay at wrote: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. Set the font to 0 (zero) Aha!! Whee! Thanks. :) Does this work on Windows too? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay| [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Custom hypermedia solutions | http://www.hyperactivesw.com 612.724.1596 | 612.724.1562 - fax Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said, on 7/25/00 1:53 PM: Jacqueline Landman Gay at wrote: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. Set the font to 0 (zero) MetaCard took 0, but seemed to do something strange with it. My system font (Charcoal) didn't display right. With the externals collection (maybe other xcmds as well) to run AppleScripts, you could run the following to get the system font: tell application "Appearance" the system font of the current theme end tell Presumably that could be translated into an apple event, so you could do it directly with MetaCard's built-in send command, but I've never developed the skill of translating from applescript to apple events. gc Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Geoff Canyon at wrote: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. Set the font to 0 (zero) MetaCard took 0, but seemed to do something strange with it. My system font (Charcoal) didn't display right. What exactly happened? Could it be an anti-aliasing issue? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716 Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Jacqueline Landman Gay at wrote: Is there a way to detect the system's menu font on the machine running MetaCard? On Mac, that could be Chicago, Charcoal, or several others. On Windows, probably MS Sans Serif. Set the font to 0 (zero) Aha!! Whee! Thanks. :) Does this work on Windows too? Seems to. Since I got the G4 I've been doing more work on my Mac (helps that I upgraded that monitor as well -- need lotsa space for all those palettes g), and I've found that at least setting the property there gets fonts mapped correctly for Windows as well. Since the 0 is not documented (is it?), I'm only guessing that it's reliable; seems to work well here on both platforms. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation Multimedia Design and Development for Mac, Windows, UNIX, and the Web _ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com Tel: 323-225-3717 ICQ#60248349Fax: 323-225-0716 Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
Re: System font
Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said, on 7/25/00 4:21 PM: MetaCard took 0, but seemed to do something strange with it. My system font (Charcoal) didn't display right. What exactly happened? Could it be an anti-aliasing issue? Nope, an old-fashioned brain freeze. My system font is Charcoal. The default font size for a button is 14. I set the font (not the size) to 0, saw something that looked funky in comparison to the text in the menu bar (which is 12 point) and jumped to conclusions. Once I set the button to 12 point, all was right with the world. Sorry--I'll slink back to my corner now... :-) Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/metacard%40lists.best.com/ Info: http://www.xworlds.com/metacard/mailinglist.htm Please send bug reports to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not this list.
