Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with another long email. I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite community will be just like him. He didn’t want me to buy anything but asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them to me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day and meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification with him at an education event, he sent me home with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay when I get home and think about it again. He told me that he will take anything and everything back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake in purchasing them. Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin will tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy it. I was willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was assured of full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website clearly states that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons within 30 days). They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which should have been my first warning sign) before shipping them but they again assured me that I can return anything within 3 weeks. I contacted Martin back within hours of my receiving the meteorites to let him know that I plan to return 2 out of 9 meteorites because they didn’t look how I imagined from the picture and their description. I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I am not sure if the meteorites are fake but they are certainly very low quality for the premium price I paid for these. I have since gotten to know Greg Hupe Adam Hupe and Michael Farmer. They each have given me unconditional 30 days money back guarantee and I have really enjoyed working with them. I tried very hard to resolve the issue with Martin and Stefan but Stefan didn’t want to resolve anything and told me Martin has no authority to return anything but can only sell stuff on his behalf. I am still hoping that Meteorite community can put enough moral pressure on Stefan and Martin Altman to do the right and fair thing. Just to answer your question specifically, I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn’t look right to me and it was never touched, polished or modified in any way. Martin had one Urelite that needed classification but Stefan didn’t want to slice the piece for classification so he hammer broke a piece to send for analyses. Martin suggested that they should polish the broken surface before sending it to me along with polishing one other green Lunar meteorite that desperately needed polishing. I simply agreed what Martin said he needed to do before shipping with these meteorites. Irrespective, I am not even returning the Urelite specimen that was polished anyway. I think it was simply a greed and large sum that blinded them of their morals and obligations. Stefan and Martin Altman finally decided to sell their soul for large sum of money. IMCA board tried very hard to get them to honor their obligations but they refused which really makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff that they won’t ever be able to sell again. Warm regards, naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior Hi Naveen, So much for my request of an off-list info request ... so be it ... now that it is out in the open, there is absolutely nothing I see that would indicate that there is a question of authenticity, or quality however that would be defined - which is my sole worry. So I should stop right here. But I'm stubborn and will continue ... Unless all bridges are irreparably burned, I hope there is still something amicable that can be worked out to lessen the burns. You say: I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be small, friendly and ethical. As a community it is. But people are getting into disputes all the time. You can research it on this list and see flames that have flown throughout the years. Intelius is reliable, but not much else on the internet is. Everything else is caveat emptor. In a nutshell, without any input from the guys, and my pure speculation is you made that quarter of a million plus buck purchase and then tried to return 2/3 of it within the permissible window given to a bunch of guys used to dealing
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy. From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: Naveen Jain [mailto:nav...@intelius.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:41 AM To: 'meteoriteguy.com'; 'Matthias Bärmann' Cc: 'MexicoDoug'; 'meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com' Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy. From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteoriteguy.com [mailto:m...@meteoriteguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:35 AM To: Matthias Bärmann Cc: Naveen Jain; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Was there an unconditional Refund policy offered? That is the problem. Everything else is diversion from that question. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Matthias Bärmann majbaerm...@web.de wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? Best, Matthias - Original Message - From: Naveen Jain nav...@intelius.com To: 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with another long email. I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite community will be just like him. He didn‚Äôt want me to buy anything but asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them to me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day and meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification with him at an education event, he sent me home with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay when I get home and think about it again. He told me that he will take anything and everything back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake in purchasing them. Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin will tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy it. I was willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was assured of full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website clearly states that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons within 30 days). They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which should have been my first
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Michael, Please help me get this resolved if you can. I am open to anything that’s just and fair. I am not looking forward to filing lawsuit against them but simply look to them to fulfill their obligations. I think many in FBI will think of what they did as cross border Mail and Wire fraud but I am not willing to go down that route quite yet. Thanks for your offer to resolve the dispute. IMCA board members tried very hard to get them to see the light but sight of large money completely blinded them. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteoriteguy.com [mailto:m...@meteoriteguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:48 AM To: Naveen Jain Cc: Matthias Bärmann; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior I like martin and stefan. I am Sure this can still be peacfully resolved for all parties. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:40 AM, Naveen Jain nav...@intelius.com wrote: Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy. From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteoriteguy.com [mailto:m...@meteoriteguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:35 AM To: Matthias Bärmann Cc: Naveen Jain; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Was there an unconditional Refund policy offered? That is the problem. Everything else is diversion from that question. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Matthias Bärmann majbaerm...@web.de wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? Best, Matthias - Original Message - From: Naveen Jain nav...@intelius.com To: 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with another long email. I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite community will be just like him. He didn‚Äôt want me to buy anything but asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them to me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day and meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification with him at an education event, he sent me home with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay when I get home and think about it again. He told me that he will take anything and everything back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake in purchasing them. Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin will tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy it. I was willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was assured of full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website clearly states that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons within 30 days). They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which should have been my first warning sign) before shipping them but they again assured me that I can return anything within 3 weeks. I contacted Martin back within hours of my receiving the meteorites to let him know that I plan to return 2
Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altmankickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities
Michael, I agree with your assessment. I will love the meteorite community to put moral pressure on Stefan and Martin so they do what’s ethical, moral and legal. Here is a link and information from their website. Additionally, I have written confirmation from Martin on an email with unconditional warranty. There was no qualification of any kind. http://www.chladnis-heirs.com/ordering-info.html -- Return policy, We grant to our non-professional customers to return all items within 1 month after the date of purchase for any reason at full refund - given the item being in the same condition as it was sent (except custom made goods). For the case, that you are not fully satisfied with your specimen, please contact us immediately. - From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Does anyone see any doubt on what I was promised in the email for them not to honor their obligations. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of meteoriteguy.com Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:04 AM To: Andreas Gren Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altmankickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Did they promise a 30 day return policy? Is that on their site? If so and by the emails it seems they violated all terms offered to Mr Jain. They are in the wrong and Mr Jain is right. If the board ruled unanimously, where is the problem? Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 6:50 AM, Andreas Gren i...@meteoritenhaus.de wrote: Thanks Matthias and Siegfried, same bad feelings here. Andi -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Matthias Bärmann Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 15:48 An: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kickedout of IMCAfor illegal activities Siegfried, list, I agree. Without knowing the details I'm bewildered and can't believe what I read on the list today. Mr. Jain is an extremely rich man and of course a tempting possible client for every meteorite dealer. Especially this fact makes me pensive. In any case: Martin Altmann and Stefan Ralew are rightly highly reputated meteorite dealers, experts, members of the worldwibe meteorite community since a long time. (Btw. the name of Mr. Jain I've read the first time some hours ago.) I know especially Martin as someone who never hesitates to help with his enormous knowledge of the matter. We all on this list know his knowledgeable and engaged postings, quite often flavoured with a good pinch of humour. If I'd be a member of IMCA, such an event would make me think about whether it wouldn't be time to leave this association too. With regret, best regards, Matthias - Original Message - From: siegfr...@haberer-meteorite.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: i...@imcamail.de Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 12:28 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] [IMCA] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCAfor illegal activities Dear List, I would like to express my regret that Martin Altmann, Stefan Ralew, and Greg Catterton are no longer members of the I.M.C.A. Martin Altmann ist one of the fairest and most reliable persons I got to know in my life. I also have great respect for his expert knowledge which he acquired on many subjects. My regret is deep. Best regards Siegfried __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 (20110802) __ E-Mail wurde geprft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior
Mark, Stefan and Martin have completely refused the refund despite their written email promise of full refund. I tried very hard to work out a solution with them. IMCA board members tried the same after thoroughly investigating the complaint. It’s clear that Stefan and Martin were blinded by their greed. I am hopeful that you and others will get them to see the light and bring them back to ethical behavior. I have no idea why someone will refuse a refund after their promise unless they sold goods that were so bad that they are unlikely to find another sucker for it. Warm regards, naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius --- From: Mark's Meteorites [mailto:m...@meteorites.cc] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 9:03 AM To: Matthias Bärmann Cc: Naveen Jain; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behavior To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Andi, I was given unconditional guarantee to be able to return item within 3 weeks. I contacted them within hours of receiving the package. Each item was priced individually and I was offered approx. 12%-13% discount on the package of meteorites. IMCA looked at all these details when they offered 3 options to Martin Altman and Stefan to resolve the issues. Essentially, they adjusted the price of each item on pro-rated prices based on the discount percentage. Is there someone on the list who is willing to help the newcomer resolve this dispute with Stefan and Martin. IMCA board has looked at the complaint and facts and made the recommendation. I am comfortable with any of the 3 recommendation made by IMCA board. Any thoughts? naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Gren Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:26 AM To: Mark's Meteorites Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Carl, No disrespect to you but its beside the point on why I didnt like these meteorites. I can't tell you what you should or shouldnt like. I was offered unconditional refund and I feel that some meteorites didn't meet my expectation. Think about it - Why would Stefan and Martin not take these back (as per their obligation and terms of sale) if these meteorites were really that great. Are they afraid that there may not be another sucker for these not so wonderful meteorites. There is no justification for committing fraud which is to offer the terms of sale with no intention of honoring them. naveen From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Carl 's Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:36 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hello Mr Jain, No disrespect to you, but I'm still wondering why you think the 2 meteorites you wanted to return was garbage? I understand if you're not happy with them, then you are entitled to send them back for a refund, but maybe in your inexperience those 2 pieces may be highly desirable otherwise? No, I'm sorry for my rudeness, what I'm trying to say is why you did not like the 2 meteorites you wanted to return? What was it that makes you think they were not what was represented? We haven't heard from Martin but It looks to me he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl2 Mark wrote: To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks... Shawn wrote: ...Now for meteorites not being polished doesnt make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of IMCA for illegal activities
I just got the conformation from president of IMCA, Anne Black, that Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman are no longer member of IMCA. As you may already know, Stefan and Martin were systematically engaged in mail fraud and wire fraud. I was one of their many victims and decided to file a complaint against them with IMCA since they were both members of IMCA. Martin Altman had lured me in by lots of stuff by telling me that he was a board member of IMCA and I can return anything that I don't want or like. I have to thank IMCA board members for their diligent effort in investigating the complaint. IMCA board members unanimously concluded that Stefan and Martin needed to honor their obligations and act ethically as a member of IMCA. IMCA board laid out options for Stefan and Martin to honor their obligation. They were essentially asked to stop engaging in unethical and illegal behavior. See below is my official complaint to IMCA. As I said, IMCA thoroughly investigated the complaint and IMCA board unanimously voted to force them to honor their obligation of full refund. I strongly suspect that Stefan and Martin either sent me the either fake or low quality meteorite and were afraid to give the refunds for the garbage that they sold me under deceit and fraud of promising full refund with clear intent of not honoring the obligation. I am sending this note to warn all meteorite collectors to watch out so they don't become their next victim. I will be happy to provide more details if anyone wants it. I have consulted my legal counsel and probably will file lawsuit to avoid them from profiting from their illegal activities. I may also contact my friends at FBI to investigate their mail and wire fraud scam. - Original Message - From: I.M.C.A. International Meteorite Collectors Association questi...@imca.cc To: complai...@imca.cc Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:18 AM Subject: IMCA Complaints Your Name: Naveen Jain Your E-Mail: nav...@intelius.com Are you an IMCA member?: no Message: I am a new collector and purchased 9 meteorite specimens from Martin Altman (director of IMCA). Martin touted his being a director of IMCA to give me comfort and entice me to buy it from him. I specifically asked him if I will be able to return any item that I didn't like and he said that it's their normal practice and part of the German consumer protection law (see email from him below). The return policy on their website also clearly states the same i.e. a customer can return any item within 30 days for a full refund. i contacted them within 24 hours of my receiving the items that I want to return 2 of the 9 specimens that I received. They are now refusing to return the item and refund my money. I am now being told that I am somehow a business customer and my order that was sold from their stock as shown on their website is somehow a custom order because it was packed for shipping to US. I will like to refund everything to them if they have problem returning 2 out of 9 orders. Here is the email from Martin Altman: From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. Hi Naveen, As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full refund. Nja.happily. perhaps not :-) ; But of course that is our business standard. And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer returns it within 3 weeks. Warm regards, Naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Martin Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior
Doug, I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be small, friendly and ethical. I have had wonderful experience purchasing, learning and getting guidance from Martin Horejsi, Adam Hupe, Greg Hupe, Michael Farmer and others. Martin Altman and Stefan got blinded by the large $$$ sale and couldnt control their greed. They sold all of their ethics, morals and even the sense of unlawful activities for $264K. I commend IMCA board members for taking the ethics violation seriously. They spent countless hours investigating the complaint and concluded that Stefan and Martin needed to honor their obligations. See below email from president of IMCA so you can see the facts. This is not my personal opinion of fraud committed by Stefan and Martin Altman but this the opinion of 8 reputed meteorite community leaders on the board of IMCA. Here are the string of emails from Anne Black (President of IMCA) that speak for themselves: = From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 1:18 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: j...@meteorites.com.au Subject: Re: Update Hello Naveen, Ok, we are done. Martin was voted off the Board last week. Then we asked for his resignation from the IMCA. He asked for a few days to think about it, then this morning he emailed us that he was resigning. I am still very sorry that we could not get to an amicable resolution of this dispute, I really hoped..., but in the end we were giving very little choice. Thanks you for your patience. Anne Black === From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:28 PM To: altm...@meteorite-martin.de; Naveen Jain Subject: Complaint: Last attempt at a solution Naveen and Martin, Thank you for all the documentation you have both sent to us. We have reviewed it carefully, discussed it within the Board of Directors and we have voted on it. And we are now ready to act on this complaint. However, to be absolutely fair to both of you, we would like to give you one last chance to resolve this dispute with a mutually acceptable compromise. Going through the documentation we have isolated three options that have been suggested by either one of you at one time or another. These 3 options are listed below. Please look at them carefully and do let us know if there is anyway you might agree on either one of them. Let's give it a couple days for both of you to think about it, but if you tell us that no compromise is possible, then we are certainly ready to publish the decision we have reached in accordance with the ByLaws of the IMCA. 1)Return Kreep lunar for $124,387 and Green lunar for $54,152. Total $178,539. 2) Keep green lunar but return lunar Kreep for what was paid ($124,387) and refund 25K from the price of green lunar. Total refund: $149,387. 3) Return all meteorites for a full refund. Thank you for your patience and your cooperation. Copy sent to the Board of Directors Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc = From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:24 PM To: Naveen Jain Cc: stefan ralew; altm...@meteorite-martin.de Subject: Dispute Resolution Hello, I am sorry to have to admit that the resolution is not what we were hoping for. Stefan Ralew has informed us that he is the legal owner of Chladni's Heirs, as proven by the fact that your payments were sent to him and that the invoices came directly from him, not from Martin Altmann. Therefore he is the only one entitled to making any business decisions. Further Stefan Ralew has resigned from the International Meteorite Collectors Association, and has made it very clearly that any efforts from the IMCA regarding this dispute were not welcome. Therefore, working strictly within the framework of the IMCA ByLaws, there is nothing further we can do. Again I am very sorry we were not able to help you reach a mutually acceptable compromise. Thank you for your patience. Anne M. Black www.IMPACTIKA.com impact...@aol.com President of IMCA www.IMCA.cc == Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 7:49 PM To: Naveen Jain Subject: OFF LIST: Martin Stefan Hello again Naveen - I am very sorry to learn about your problem. Shocked is more like it. I have always held Martin and Stefan in high esteem and honestly so you know have considered them friends. It is a shock that this would have happened. Though I am friendly with them, business is business and I
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