Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy.
> From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM > To: Naveen Jain > Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. > > Hi Naveen, > >>As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return >>any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full >>refund. > > Nja."happily". perhaps not :-) ; > But of course that is our business standard. > And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we > would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer > returns it within 3 weeks. Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: Naveen Jain [mailto:nav...@intelius.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:41 AM To: 'meteoriteguy.com'; 'Matthias Bärmann' Cc: 'MexicoDoug'; 'meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com' Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior Absolutely Yes. Here is the email thread with the unconditional refund policy. I specifically asked Martin in an email thread below after having discussed with him on the phone previously about the refund policy. > From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM > To: Naveen Jain > Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. > > Hi Naveen, > >>As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily return >>any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full >>refund. > > Nja."happily". perhaps not :-) ; > But of course that is our business standard. > And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By law we > would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the buyer > returns it within 3 weeks. Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee – X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteoriteguy.com [mailto:m...@meteoriteguy.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 7:35 AM To: Matthias Bärmann Cc: Naveen Jain; MexicoDoug; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for theirillegal behavior Was there an unconditional Refund policy offered? That is the problem. Everything else is diversion from that question. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Aug 2, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Matthias Bärmann <majbaerm...@web.de> wrote: > > Mr. Jain wrote: > >> "I am very new to the meteorite collection" ... > > > >> "3 days learning about meteorites and their classification" (...) > > > > He also wrote: > > > >> "I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their >> quality." > > > >> "I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to me" >> (...) > > > >> "makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality >> stuff" (...) > > > > Sounds somehow strange, no? > > > > Best, > > Matthias > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Naveen Jain" <nav...@intelius.com> > To: "'MexicoDoug'" <mexicod...@aim.com> > Cc: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 3:22 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for > theirillegal behavior > > >> Doug, that was a long email but I will try to answer your questions with >> another long email. >> >> I am very new to the meteorite collection and just fell in love with them >> when I purchased my first set of these from Martin Horejsi. My experience >> with him was so pleasant that I just assumed that others in the meteorite >> community will be just like him. He didn‚Äôt want me to buy anything but >> asked me to learn about them before he would even consider selling them to >> me. I guess I should have known this since he is a professor by day and >> meteorite collector by night. After I spent 3 days learning about meteorites >> and their classification with him at an education event, he sent me home >> with the briefcase full of meteorites and told me to pay when I get home and >> think about it again. He told me that he will take anything and everything >> back if I ever decided that I have made a mistake in purchasing them. >> >> Back to Martin Altman and Stefan, it was a different experience. Martin will >> tell great story about each meteorite and kept suggesting to buy it. I was >> willing to look at these well described meteorites since I was assured of >> full refund if I return them within 3 weeks (their website clearly states >> that any customer can ask for full refund for any reasons within 30 days). >> They asked me to pay them full amount by wire (which should have been my >> first warning sign) before shipping them but they again assured me that I >> can return anything within 3 weeks. I contacted Martin back within hours of >> my receiving the meteorites to let him know that I plan to return 2 out of 9 >> meteorites because they didn‚Äôt look how I imagined from the picture and >> their description. I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled >> with their quality. >> >> I am not sure if the meteorites are fake but they are certainly very low >> quality for the premium price I paid for these. I have since gotten to know >> Greg Hupe Adam Hupe and Michael Farmer. They each have given me >> unconditional 30 days money back guarantee and I have really enjoyed working >> with them. >> >> I tried very hard to resolve the issue with Martin and Stefan but Stefan >> didn‚Äôt want to resolve anything and told me Martin has no authority to >> return anything but can only sell stuff on his behalf. I am still hoping >> that Meteorite community can put enough moral pressure on Stefan and Martin >> Altman to do the right and fair thing. >> >> Just to answer your question specifically, I wanted to return Lunar Kreep >> because it just doesn‚Äôt look right to me and it was never touched, >> polished or modified in any way. >> >> Martin had one Urelite that needed classification but Stefan didn‚Äôt want >> to slice the piece for classification so he hammer broke a piece to send for >> analyses. Martin suggested that they should polish the broken surface before >> sending it to me along with polishing one other green Lunar meteorite that >> desperately needed polishing. I simply agreed what Martin said he needed to >> do before shipping with these meteorites. Irrespective, I am not even >> returning the Urelite specimen that was polished anyway. >> >> I think it was simply a greed and large sum that blinded them of their >> morals and obligations. Stefan and Martin Altman finally decided to sell >> their soul for large sum of money. IMCA board tried very hard to get them to >> honor their obligations but they refused which really makes me think that >> what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff that they >> won‚Äôt ever be able to sell again. >> >> Warm regards, >> naveen >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee ‚Äì X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 11:12 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Subject: Re: Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal behavior >> >> Hi Naveen, >> >> So much for my request of an off-list info request ... so be it ... >> now that it is out in the open, there is absolutely nothing I see that >> would indicate that there is a question of authenticity, or quality >> however that would be defined - which is my sole worry. So I should >> stop right here. But I'm stubborn and will continue ... >> >> Unless all bridges are irreparably burned, I hope there is still >> something amicable that can be worked out to lessen the burns. >> >> You say: "I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite >> community to be small, friendly and ethical." >> >> As a community it is. But people are getting into disputes all the >> time. You can research it on this list and see flames that have flown >> throughout the years. Intelius is reliable, but not much else on the >> internet is. Everything else is caveat emptor. >> >> In a nutshell, without any input from the guys, and my pure speculation >> is you made that quarter of a million plus buck purchase and then tried >> to return 2/3 of it within the permissible window given to a bunch of >> guys used to dealing with new collectors purchasing $100 items for >> which they work night and day giving free lessons. If I read between >> the lines (and I have ZERO knowledge of this from the dealers) you felt >> you were overcharged. No doubt some other dealer told you that as he >> vied for the sale and your confidence and crapped bricks when he heard >> the amounts at stake. Dealers are like that behind closed doors - they >> eat each other for lunch for two orders of magnitude less. I'd like to >> invite you to come to the Tucson mineral show to assess this. And we >> all know that once a customer looses that "lovin feeling" for a rock, >> it's history. Why else would you agree to keep 8 of the 9 and just >> return the most expensive one and tell them to send you half of the >> cost of the second most expensive one back‚Ķ? >> >> For reasons we do not know, once the sale was poisoned, it looks like a >> dispute developed between the selling partners which resulted in your >> return/refund not being a deliverable, not honored. You then got pissed >> off at them and involved the IMCA which reticently fulfilled their >> obligation in accordance with your contract as you have described it. >> >> It comes down to a simple escape clause you had that wasn't honored? >> Correct? I beg you do not assail the authenticity of their stones >> unless you can point something out that was fake; quality is ambiguous >> in this situation if they are authentic: then they are authentic. Or >> is there a hidden defect such as glue, cracks, etc. Rake them over the >> coals as you deem fit, but the ramifications of alleging fakery go much >> beyond baseless suspicions of parties in a dispute; the effect is to >> put the entire meteorite world in serious turmoil and we all lose, just >> like the scare of the US defaulting on its debt - it is a cascade >> effect through everyone's collection and rumors are deadly and hurt us >> all since the community with the good material is so tightly knit. >> >> To put it in perspective, however, it would be instructive to know >> whether it was simply an issue of differing expectations regarding >> returning your money among the selling associates, or if there were >> some special requests you required to modify (cut, polish, etc) the >> stones transforming them into something else. That would explain why >> they didn't allow the return, but it wouldn't explain why you were >> apparently promised it was returnable. >> >> Alternately, and what I suspect, perhaps it was originally from Morocco >> and most of the cash went there to release the stone and can't be >> recovered. None of this is your concern given you owned the escape >> clause; however it would speak volumes on how such a sad situation >> could shock us by occurring. No one selling meteorites that I know has >> terrific cash flow and sometimes companies make risky decisions based >> on optimism that lead to insolvency and inability to honor their >> unsettled liabilities. That doesn‚Äôt make them unethical, it just makes >> them foolish businessmen. With that magnitude, don‚Äôt you wish you only >> offered X% up front and Y% upon satisfaction? Of course that has >> nothing to do with your contract, but this sort of thing could happen >> anywhere and this is nothing you failed to do - only a bitter >> contemplation to theoretically have avoided the catastrophe. Imagine >> buying a house with a cashier‚Äôs check for the full amount from a bunch >> of in-laws in partnership ...escrow comes to mind to avoid temptation. >> >> Good luck to you all. Today is seriously the most terrible day in >> meteoritidum I've ever had - a nightmare. I hope beyond all odds that >> something good comes with it for all those who have been burned. The >> meteorites sound absolutely astounding. As a last resort, I have a >> cardboard sign with magic marker written, ‚ÄúI werk for unwanted orphan >> Lunar meatyites‚Äù ;-) >> >> Kindest wishes >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Naveen Jain <nav...@intelius.com> >> To: 'MexicoDoug' <mexicod...@aim.com> >> Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 12:02 am >> Subject: RE: Martin & Stefan Kicked out of IMCA for their illegal >> behavior >> >> >> Doug, >> >> I am still in shock because I expected the meteorite community to be >> small, >> friendly and ethical. I have had wonderful experience purchasing, >> learning >> and getting guidance from Martin Horejsi, Adam Hupe, Greg Hupe, Michael >> Farmer and others. >> >> Martin Altman and Stefan got blinded by the large $$$ sale and couldn‚Äôt >> control their greed. They sold all of their ethics, morals and even the >> sense of unlawful activities for $264K. >> >> I commend IMCA board members for taking the ethics violation seriously. >> They >> spent countless hours investigating the complaint and concluded that >> Stefan >> and Martin needed to honor their obligations. See below email from >> president >> of IMCA so you can see the facts. This is not my personal opinion of >> fraud >> committed by Stefan and Martin Altman but this the opinion of 8 reputed >> meteorite community leaders on the board of IMCA. Here are the string of >> emails from Anne Black (President of IMCA) that speak for themselves: >> >> ========================================================================= >> >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 1:18 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: j...@meteorites.com.au >> Subject: Re: Update >> >> Hello Naveen, >> >> Ok, we are done. >> Martin was voted off the Board last week. Then we asked for his >> resignation >> from the IMCA. He asked for a few days to think about it, then this >> morning >> he emailed us that he was resigning. >> I am still very sorry that we could not get to an amicable resolution of >> this dispute, I really hoped......., but in the end we were giving very >> little choice. >> Thanks you for your patience. >> >> Anne Black >> >> =================================================================== >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 12:28 PM >> To: altm...@meteorite-martin.de; Naveen Jain >> Subject: Complaint: Last attempt at a solution >> >> Naveen and Martin, >> >> Thank you for all the documentation you have both sent to us. We have >> reviewed it carefully, discussed it within the Board of Directors and we >> have voted on it. And we are now ready to act on this complaint. >> >> However, to be absolutely fair to both of you, we would like to give >> you one >> last chance to resolve this dispute with a mutually acceptable >> compromise. >> Going through the documentation we have isolated three options that have >> been suggested by either one of you at one time or another. These 3 >> options >> are listed below. >> Please look at them carefully and do let us know if there is anyway you >> might agree on either one of them. >> >> Let's give it a couple days for both of you to think about it, but if >> you >> tell us that no compromise is possible, then we are certainly ready to >> publish the decision we have reached in accordance with the ByLaws of >> the >> IMCA. >> >> >> 1)Return Kreep lunar for $124,387 and Green lunar for $54,152. Total >> $178,539. >> >> 2) Keep green lunar but return lunar Kreep for what was paid ($124,387) >> and >> refund 25K from the price of green lunar. Total refund: $149,387. >> >> 3) Return all meteorites for a full refund. >> >> Thank you for your patience and your cooperation. >> >> Copy sent to the Board of Directors >> >> Anne M. Black >> www.IMPACTIKA.com >> impact...@aol.com >> President of IMCA >> www.IMCA.cc >> ========================================================================= >> === >> = >> >> From: Impactika [mailto:impact...@aol.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:24 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Cc: stefan ralew; altm...@meteorite-martin.de >> Subject: Dispute Resolution >> >> Hello, >> >> I am sorry to have to admit that the resolution is not what we were >> hoping >> for. >> >> Stefan Ralew has informed us that he is the legal owner of "Chladni's >> Heirs", as proven by the fact that your payments were sent to him and >> that >> the invoices came directly from him, not from Martin Altmann. Therefore >> he >> is the only one entitled to making any business decisions. >> Further Stefan Ralew has resigned from the International Meteorite >> Collectors Association, and has made it very clearly that any efforts >> from >> the IMCA regarding this dispute were not welcome. >> Therefore, working strictly within the framework of the IMCA ByLaws, >> there >> is nothing further we can do. >> >> Again I am very sorry we were not able to help you reach a mutually >> acceptable compromise. >> >> Thank you for your patience. >> >> >> Anne M. Black >> www.IMPACTIKA.com >> impact...@aol.com >> President of IMCA >> www.IMCA.cc >> >> ========================================================================= >> === >> == >> >> >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee ‚Äì X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> From: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicod...@aim.com] >> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 7:49 PM >> To: Naveen Jain >> Subject: OFF LIST: Martin & Stefan >> >> Hello again Naveen - >> >> I am very sorry to learn about your problem. Shocked is more like it. >> I have always held Martin and Stefan in high esteem and honestly so you >> know have considered them friends. >> >> It is a shock that this would have happened. Though I am friendly with >> them, business is business and I would never mix the two. I have made >> several purchases from Martin and Stefan, some appreciable in amount >> and I am sure it is about $10K in total over the years. >> >> I would like to hear the story to be able to form my own opinion of >> what happened. It is very important to me to know that I am dealing >> with ethical people, even those that are/were friends. Sometimes >> friends can be terrible business associates, something I have run into >> in the past. So please give me the detailed information. I will keep >> it confidential - doesn't matter, and I'll be sure to give you my >> personal and confidential take on it if you ask in return for the >> information. >> >> And they are bigger fools than I though to mess with you, perhaps they >> didn't know who they were dealing with. >> >> Kindest wishes >> Doug >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Naveen Jain <nav...@intelius.com> >> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 9:57 pm >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Stefan Ralew and Martin Altman kicked out of >> IMCA for illegal activities >> >> >> I just got the conformation from president of IMCA, Anne Black, that >> Stefan >> Ralew and Martin Altman are no longer member of IMCA. >> >> As you may already know, Stefan and Martin were systematically engaged >> in >> mail fraud and wire fraud. I was one of their many victims and decided >> to >> file a complaint against them with IMCA since they were both members of >> IMCA. Martin Altman had lured me in by lots of stuff by telling me that >> he >> was a board member of IMCA and I can return anything that I don't want >> or >> like. >> >> I have to thank IMCA board members for their diligent effort in >> investigating the complaint. IMCA board members unanimously concluded >> that >> Stefan and Martin needed to honor their obligations and act ethically >> as a >> member of IMCA. IMCA board laid out options for Stefan and Martin to >> honor >> their obligation. They were essentially asked to stop engaging in >> unethical >> and illegal behavior. >> >> See below is my official complaint to IMCA. As I said, IMCA thoroughly >> investigated the complaint and IMCA board unanimously voted to force >> them to >> honor their obligation of full refund. >> >> I strongly suspect that Stefan and Martin either sent me the either >> fake or >> low quality meteorite and were afraid to give the refunds for the >> garbage >> that they sold me under deceit and fraud of promising full refund with >> clear >> intent of not honoring the obligation. >> >> I am sending this note to warn all meteorite collectors to watch out so >> they >> don't become their next victim. I will be happy to provide more details >> if >> anyone wants it. I have consulted my legal counsel and probably will >> file >> lawsuit to avoid them from profiting from their illegal activities. I >> may >> also contact my friends at FBI to investigate their mail and wire fraud >> scam. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "I.M.C.A. International Meteorite Collectors Association" >> <questi...@imca.cc> >> To: <complai...@imca.cc> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:18 AM >> Subject: IMCA Complaints >> >> >>> >>> Your Name: Naveen Jain >>> Your E-Mail: nav...@intelius.com >>> Are you an IMCA member?: no >>> >>> Message: I am a new collector and purchased 9 meteorite specimens from >>> Martin Altman (director of IMCA). Martin touted his being a director >> of >>> IMCA to give me comfort and entice me to buy it from him. I >> specifically >>> asked him if I will be able to return any item that I didn't like and >> he >>> said that it's their normal practice and part of the German consumer >>> protection law (see email from him below). The return policy on their >>> website also clearly states the same i.e. a customer can return any >> item >>> within 30 days for a full refund. i contacted them within 24 hours of >> my >>> receiving the items that I want to return 2 of the 9 specimens that I >>> received. They are now refusing to return the item and refund my >> money. I >>> am now being told that I am somehow a business customer and my order >> that >>> was sold from their stock as shown on their website is somehow a >> custom >>> order because it was packed for shipping to US. >>> >>> I will like to refund everything to them if they have problem >> returning 2 >>> out of 9 orders. >>> >>> Here is the email from Martin Altman: >>> >>> From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altm...@meteorite-martin.de] >>> Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 3:37 PM >>> To: Naveen Jain >>> Subject: AW: Few thoughts.. >>> >>> Hi Naveen, >>> >>>> As we discussed in the past, I am assuming that you will happily >> return >>>> any of the meteorite that I don't like after I look at them for a full >>>> refund. >>> >>> Nja."happily". perhaps not :-) ; >>> But of course that is our business standard. >>> And btw. here in Germany we have a strong consumers protection. By >> law we >>> would be obligated to take back everything sold via internet, if the >> buyer >>> returns it within 3 weeks. >> >> Warm regards, >> Naveen >> >> Naveen Jain >> Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace >> Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University >> http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > __________ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6343 > (20110802) __________ > > E-Mail wurde gepr¸ft mit ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
