Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

I am not interested in starting another pairing wars argument. The 
archive is full of these discussions.  In the past, I pointing out those 
who were self-pairing, piggy-backing and stealing nomenclature from 
official classifications I was involved with.  Many dealers thought they 
were entitled to piggyback my hard work and I let them know that what 
they were doing is nothing short of fraud. Piggybacking also has a 
negative effect on collectors who do not want undocumented stones 
competing with officially classified specimens in their collections. 
This widespread and unsavory practice hurts honest dealers and 
collectors alike.


Simply posting a bulletin entry is not enough.  The name of the person 
who submitted the specimens must match or a chain of custody to that 
name must be clearly spelled out for provenance purposes. The number of 
stones listed in the bulletin cannot be exceeded and weights all need to 
be in alignment.


In my case, yes, I posted links to the bulletin where my name was 
mentioned so the chain of custody was unbroken and well-established. 
This is not the case for most planetary listings on eBay.


Lazy and dishonest Dealers who take shortcuts and bypass protocol are 
driving honest people away.


Who would want to pass down or inherit an undocumented stone thinking it 
is planetary to find out later, it is a terrestrial breccia?  Our 
actions now will be remembered well into the future.  What kind of 
legacy do you want to leave behind?


Life only happens once and there is no time for rehearsal so you better 
do things the best you can the first time.


Adam


On 10/10/2017 4:00 AM, Graham Ensor via Meteorite-list wrote:
You say"It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is 
legitimate, not collectors/buyers after the transaction.  Why should a 
buyer have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to 
the person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to 
provide this information up front.  Who in their right mind would pay 
top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the market 
as planetary pieces?"


The answer to that is that you would Adamthat is exactly how you 
first bought in numerous rare pieces from NWA and then got them 
classified and published. You then sell them with a link to the Bulletin 
and thus the scienceno more chain of provenance than that. Just your 
own and lab certification.


This is exactly what I see happening at the moment with many other 
dealers and even just collectors now...they are all doing the same as 
you did and proudly bringing new material to science and the collectors 
market. I see nothing wrong with that and I do not see all this so 
called fraudulent material on the market. If you are seeing this 
meteorwrong or terrestrial breccia material being sold by the dealers we 
would be very glad if you could share links with us to that material or 
self paired so we are aware of it and can decide ourselves. (Please let 
us know how you know it is terrestrial breccia). I would certainly 
telling people. I called one leading dealer out recently because they 
were saying the red coating on some recent lunar was fusion crust and 
thus rare when it is actually desert soil when examined at the lab and 
easily cleaned off. There are always a few amateurs and fraudsters, not 
well known dealers...trying on...but you seem to be saying more than that.


I admit people have to be careful when buying and need to see that the 
material has been analysed at the lab if being sold as a classified 
type. Those buying unclassified material have to take the risks like you 
and I have always done and then it stays unclassified unless we make the 
effort to donate parts and get the science done.


I just don't see what you are seeing and many other dealers are me 
asking what you are talking about...please share something concrete with 
us if you are seeing this. It is important for the confidence of the 
market in general.


Graham







On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list 
> wrote:


It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is legitimate,
not collectors/buyers after the transaction.  Why should a buyer
have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the
person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to
provide this information up front.  Who in their right mind would
pay top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the
market as planetary pieces?

If a dealer is too lazy to follow protocol then why should he/she be
rewarded? There is no value added by simply reselling untested
stones that are accompanied with stolen nomenclature and Meteortical
Bulletin entries.

Professionals see it as there is no such thing as an unclassified
lunar.  It is either lunar or it is not.  There 

Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Graham Ensor via Meteorite-list]

You say"It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is
legitimate, not collectors/buyers after the transaction.  Why should a
buyer have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the
person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to provide
this information up front.  Who in their right mind would pay top dollar
for untested and unclassified stones being put on the market as planetary
pieces?"

The answer to that is that you would Adamthat is exactly how you first
bought in numerous rare pieces from NWA and then got them classified and
published. You then sell them with a link to the Bulletin and thus the
scienceno more chain of provenance than that. Just your own and lab
certification.

This is exactly what I see happening at the moment with many other dealers
and even just collectors now...they are all doing the same as you did and
proudly bringing new material to science and the collectors market. I see
nothing wrong with that and I do not see all this so called fraudulent
material on the market. If you are seeing this meteorwrong or terrestrial
breccia material being sold by the dealers we would be very glad if you
could share links with us to that material or self paired so we are aware
of it and can decide ourselves. (Please let us know how you know it is
terrestrial breccia). I would certainly telling people. I called one
leading dealer out recently because they were saying the red coating on
some recent lunar was fusion crust and thus rare when it is actually desert
soil when examined at the lab and easily cleaned off. There are always a
few amateurs and fraudsters, not well known dealers...trying on...but you
seem to be saying more than that.

I admit people have to be careful when buying and need to see that the
material has been analysed at the lab if being sold as a classified type.
Those buying unclassified material have to take the risks like you and I
have always done and then it stays unclassified unless we make the effort
to donate parts and get the science done.

I just don't see what you are seeing and many other dealers are me asking
what you are talking about...please share something concrete with us if you
are seeing this. It is important for the confidence of the market in
general.

Graham







On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is legitimate, not
> collectors/buyers after the transaction.  Why should a buyer have to ask
> for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the person named in a
> Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to provide this information up
> front.  Who in their right mind would pay top dollar for untested and
> unclassified stones being put on the market as planetary pieces?
>
> If a dealer is too lazy to follow protocol then why should he/she be
> rewarded? There is no value added by simply reselling untested stones that
> are accompanied with stolen nomenclature and Meteortical Bulletin entries.
>
> Professionals see it as there is no such thing as an unclassified lunar.
> It is either lunar or it is not.  There is no gray area. That is like
> somebody placing quartz (Herkimer Diamonds) on the market and trying to
> sell them as an unclassified natural diamonds. There are over 167,000 loose
> diamonds being offered on eBay.  Guess how many are real?  Most educated
> prospective buyers will not consider a stone without GIA certification.
> Buyers learned the hard way when spending thousands of dollars for
> worthless paste.
>
> I see terrestrial breccias being offered up as lunar material on a
> consistent bases thus the acid test. If it fizzes or you cannot get a
> direct chain of custody to the classifying laboratory, you may consider
> asking for an immediate refund.  Save your hard earned money.  There is
> something to be learned from other markets where buyers have been stiffed.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/9/2017 2:55 AM, Graham Ensor wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid it works the other way round too Adam...you would have to have
>> a piece analysed by an expert to say what you are saying rather than just
>> look at the pieces to see and conclude what they are. Every single piece of
>> my lunar has been to the leading lab specializing in meteorites in the UK
>> and been recorded, weighed and analysed to show it is lunar. I have the
>> write up and science write up submitted for classification if you wish to
>> see it. It is likely part of this new bigger find this year and matches the
>> other material around that I see for what that is worth.
>>
>> Which reputable dealers are you accusing of selling the lunar material
>> you think is not lunar by just looking at it? I'm sure you should pass that
>> information on to help the community.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 

Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[John Lutzon via Meteorite-list]

Thanks David,

I was extremely remiss on seeing that angle. At one time, I persued such
cases and should have had more forthought about this subject.

ADAM, my mistake---DO NOT name those Dealers...

Humble John  
  - Original Message - 
  From: David Freeman 
  To: John Lutzon ; Adam Hupe ; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
  Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 6:49 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis


  Dear List;
  Not to stir the pot ( used to be real good at it),  There is room for a legal 
battle most likely when one starts pointing fingers...and time lawyers are 
dragged in, it could make a real mess and potentially harm all meteorite 
transactions.


  Meteorite lemon law?  Adam is cool, a great mentor.


  With my regards, David Freeman Rock Springs WY 82902 41.6°N 109.22°W (Elev. 
6324 ft)



  On Monday, October 9, 2017 4:34 PM, John Lutzon via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:





  Adam,
  I was truly hoping to join your wagon train by virtue of your great 
  post regarding what to look out for in Ebay sales. I believe it may 
  have helped many people to not make a bad buy.

  But now, again, you're losing me--again you state that you are aware
  of 108 bad sales divided by the amount of Dealers and you know who
  these sellers are -- but you're not tellin'--- smart !

  And, you state that the Met-Bull will produce these bad dealers, by what means
  do you mean?? Deduction ??

  If you indeed want to help people Not make a bad deal--then why are you 
  basically making them jump through hoops. You are not helping anyone
  by keeping this information to yourself. Either Name Them or quit writing
  about this subjectit's doing no-one any good.

  Get back on trackyou have alot to offer this community

  John


  - Original Message - 
  From: "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
  To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
  Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis



  I have been getting several requests to name the dealers engaged in less 
  than honest business practices.  I have publicly called out those who 
  violated the sanctity of meteorites I was involved with in the past by 
  self-pairing and piggy-backing material I placed on the market. At one 
  point, it was almost a full-time job.  I am not interested in creating a 
  "Dealer hall Of Shame" list however you can put one together yourself 
  with a little bit of work. You would be surprised at the number of 
  dealers who are engaged in deceptive trade practices.

  I found 108 violations out of the 265 lunar meteorites currently listed 
  on eBay by simply cross referencing the Meteoritical Bulletin.  There 
  are a lot more than 108 if unclassified material with no numbers is 
  taken into account.

  For NWA material, the Meteortical Bulletin will assist in providing you 
  with a list of dealers to avoid.  Carefully write down the NWA numbers 
  in question and enter them into the Meteoritical Bulletin search text field.

  Link to the meteoritical Bulletin search page:

  https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

  Things to look out for in the bulletin.

  If there is more material by weight available on the market than what is 
  listed in the bulletin, then there is fraud taking place.

  If the number of complete stones listed in the Bulletin under a 
  particular NWA number is exceeded, then you are looking at another case 
  of self-pairing which is also fraud.

  If you are not provided with a complete chain of custody back to the 
  persons name in the bulletin who submitted the meteorite for study, then 
  it is not worth pursuing.

  If you type in the NWA number or name and no data shows up, it means the 
  stone is not official and has not been approved.

  It is interesting to see who made the list of dealers to avoid!


  Happy hunting,

  Adam






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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[David Freeman via Meteorite-list]

Dear List;Not to stir the pot ( used to be real good at it),  There is room for 
a legal battle most likely when one starts pointing fingers...and time lawyers 
are dragged in, it could make a real mess and potentially harm all meteorite 
transactions.
Meteorite lemon law?  Adam is cool, a great mentor.
 With my regards, David Freeman Rock Springs WY 82902 41.6°N 109.22°W (Elev. 
6324 ft) 

On Monday, October 9, 2017 4:34 PM, John Lutzon via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
 

 
Adam,
I was truly hoping to join your wagon train by virtue of your great 
post regarding what to look out for in Ebay sales. I believe it may 
have helped many people to not make a bad buy.

But now, again, you're losing me--again you state that you are aware
of 108 bad sales divided by the amount of Dealers and you know who
these sellers are -- but you're not tellin'--- smart !

And, you state that the Met-Bull will produce these bad dealers, by what means
do you mean?? Deduction ??

If you indeed want to help people Not make a bad deal--then why are you 
basically making them jump through hoops. You are not helping anyone
by keeping this information to yourself. Either Name Them or quit writing
about this subjectit's doing no-one any good.

Get back on trackyou have alot to offer this community

John


- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis



I have been getting several requests to name the dealers engaged in less 
than honest business practices.  I have publicly called out those who 
violated the sanctity of meteorites I was involved with in the past by 
self-pairing and piggy-backing material I placed on the market. At one 
point, it was almost a full-time job.  I am not interested in creating a 
"Dealer hall Of Shame" list however you can put one together yourself 
with a little bit of work. You would be surprised at the number of 
dealers who are engaged in deceptive trade practices.

I found 108 violations out of the 265 lunar meteorites currently listed 
on eBay by simply cross referencing the Meteoritical Bulletin.  There 
are a lot more than 108 if unclassified material with no numbers is 
taken into account.

For NWA material, the Meteortical Bulletin will assist in providing you 
with a list of dealers to avoid.  Carefully write down the NWA numbers 
in question and enter them into the Meteoritical Bulletin search text field.

Link to the meteoritical Bulletin search page:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

Things to look out for in the bulletin.

If there is more material by weight available on the market than what is 
listed in the bulletin, then there is fraud taking place.

If the number of complete stones listed in the Bulletin under a 
particular NWA number is exceeded, then you are looking at another case 
of self-pairing which is also fraud.

If you are not provided with a complete chain of custody back to the 
persons name in the bulletin who submitted the meteorite for study, then 
it is not worth pursuing.

If you type in the NWA number or name and no data shows up, it means the 
stone is not official and has not been approved.

It is interesting to see who made the list of dealers to avoid!


Happy hunting,

Adam






__

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Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

In real estate, it is called doing your own due diligence.  I am simply 
trying to assist by providing the tools necessary for prospective buyers 
to make an informed purchasing decision.


You will find that a lot of reputable dealers and high end collectors 
have left the meteorite market due to the staggering amount of unproven 
and unclassified amount of material interfering with legitimate 
offerings. It is more difficult then ever navigating through all the 
listings to find valid material with perfect provenance.


Speaking of real estate, I need to work on something productive like 
property descriptions instead of creating a dealer snitch list.


I wish everybody the best in future acquisitions,

Adam



On 10/9/2017 3:34 PM, John Lutzon wrote:


Adam,
I was truly hoping to join your wagon train by virtue of your great
post regarding what to look out for in Ebay sales. I believe it may
have helped many people to not make a bad buy.

But now, again, you're losing me--again you state that you are aware
of 108 bad sales divided by the amount of Dealers and you know who
these sellers are -- but you're not tellin'--- smart !

And, you state that the Met-Bull will produce these bad dealers, by what means
do you mean?? Deduction ??

If you indeed want to help people Not make a bad deal--then why are you
basically making them jump through hoops. You are not helping anyone
by keeping this information to yourself. Either Name Them or quit writing
about this subjectit's doing no-one any good.

Get back on trackyou have alot to offer this community

John


- Original Message -
From: "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis



I have been getting several requests to name the dealers engaged in less
than honest business practices.  I have publicly called out those who
violated the sanctity of meteorites I was involved with in the past by
self-pairing and piggy-backing material I placed on the market. At one
point, it was almost a full-time job.  I am not interested in creating a
"Dealer hall Of Shame" list however you can put one together yourself
with a little bit of work. You would be surprised at the number of
dealers who are engaged in deceptive trade practices.

I found 108 violations out of the 265 lunar meteorites currently listed
on eBay by simply cross referencing the Meteoritical Bulletin.  There
are a lot more than 108 if unclassified material with no numbers is
taken into account.

For NWA material, the Meteortical Bulletin will assist in providing you
with a list of dealers to avoid.  Carefully write down the NWA numbers
in question and enter them into the Meteoritical Bulletin search text field.

Link to the meteoritical Bulletin search page:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

Things to look out for in the bulletin.

If there is more material by weight available on the market than what is
listed in the bulletin, then there is fraud taking place.

If the number of complete stones listed in the Bulletin under a
particular NWA number is exceeded, then you are looking at another case
of self-pairing which is also fraud.

If you are not provided with a complete chain of custody back to the
persons name in the bulletin who submitted the meteorite for study, then
it is not worth pursuing.

If you type in the NWA number or name and no data shows up, it means the
stone is not official and has not been approved.

It is interesting to see who made the list of dealers to avoid!


Happy hunting,

Adam






__

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Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[John Lutzon via Meteorite-list]

Adam,
I was truly hoping to join your wagon train by virtue of your great 
post regarding what to look out for in Ebay sales. I believe it may 
have helped many people to not make a bad buy.

But now, again, you're losing me--again you state that you are aware
of 108 bad sales divided by the amount of Dealers and you know who
these sellers are -- but you're not tellin'--- smart !

And, you state that the Met-Bull will produce these bad dealers, by what means
do you mean?? Deduction ??

If you indeed want to help people Not make a bad deal--then why are you 
basically making them jump through hoops. You are not helping anyone
by keeping this information to yourself. Either Name Them or quit writing
about this subjectit's doing no-one any good.

Get back on trackyou have alot to offer this community

John


- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis



I have been getting several requests to name the dealers engaged in less 
than honest business practices.  I have publicly called out those who 
violated the sanctity of meteorites I was involved with in the past by 
self-pairing and piggy-backing material I placed on the market. At one 
point, it was almost a full-time job.  I am not interested in creating a 
"Dealer hall Of Shame" list however you can put one together yourself 
with a little bit of work. You would be surprised at the number of 
dealers who are engaged in deceptive trade practices.

I found 108 violations out of the 265 lunar meteorites currently listed 
on eBay by simply cross referencing the Meteoritical Bulletin.  There 
are a lot more than 108 if unclassified material with no numbers is 
taken into account.

For NWA material, the Meteortical Bulletin will assist in providing you 
with a list of dealers to avoid.  Carefully write down the NWA numbers 
in question and enter them into the Meteoritical Bulletin search text field.

Link to the meteoritical Bulletin search page:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

Things to look out for in the bulletin.

If there is more material by weight available on the market than what is 
listed in the bulletin, then there is fraud taking place.

If the number of complete stones listed in the Bulletin under a 
particular NWA number is exceeded, then you are looking at another case 
of self-pairing which is also fraud.

If you are not provided with a complete chain of custody back to the 
persons name in the bulletin who submitted the meteorite for study, then 
it is not worth pursuing.

If you type in the NWA number or name and no data shows up, it means the 
stone is not official and has not been approved.

It is interesting to see who made the list of dealers to avoid!


Happy hunting,

Adam






__

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Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
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Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

I have been getting several requests to name the dealers engaged in less 
than honest business practices.  I have publicly called out those who 
violated the sanctity of meteorites I was involved with in the past by 
self-pairing and piggy-backing material I placed on the market. At one 
point, it was almost a full-time job.  I am not interested in creating a 
"Dealer hall Of Shame" list however you can put one together yourself 
with a little bit of work. You would be surprised at the number of 
dealers who are engaged in deceptive trade practices.


I found 108 violations out of the 265 lunar meteorites currently listed 
on eBay by simply cross referencing the Meteoritical Bulletin.  There 
are a lot more than 108 if unclassified material with no numbers is 
taken into account.


For NWA material, the Meteortical Bulletin will assist in providing you 
with a list of dealers to avoid.  Carefully write down the NWA numbers 
in question and enter them into the Meteoritical Bulletin search text field.


Link to the meteoritical Bulletin search page:

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/

Things to look out for in the bulletin.

If there is more material by weight available on the market than what is 
listed in the bulletin, then there is fraud taking place.


If the number of complete stones listed in the Bulletin under a 
particular NWA number is exceeded, then you are looking at another case 
of self-pairing which is also fraud.


If you are not provided with a complete chain of custody back to the 
persons name in the bulletin who submitted the meteorite for study, then 
it is not worth pursuing.


If you type in the NWA number or name and no data shows up, it means the 
stone is not official and has not been approved.


It is interesting to see who made the list of dealers to avoid!


Happy hunting,

Adam






__

Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is legitimate, not 
collectors/buyers after the transaction.  Why should a buyer have to ask 
for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the person named in 
a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to provide this information 
up front.  Who in their right mind would pay top dollar for untested and 
unclassified stones being put on the market as planetary pieces?


If a dealer is too lazy to follow protocol then why should he/she be 
rewarded? There is no value added by simply reselling untested stones 
that are accompanied with stolen nomenclature and Meteortical Bulletin 
entries.


Professionals see it as there is no such thing as an unclassified lunar. 
 It is either lunar or it is not.  There is no gray area. That is like 
somebody placing quartz (Herkimer Diamonds) on the market and trying to 
sell them as an unclassified natural diamonds. There are over 167,000 
loose diamonds being offered on eBay.  Guess how many are real?  Most 
educated prospective buyers will not consider a stone without GIA 
certification.  Buyers learned the hard way when spending thousands of 
dollars for worthless paste.


I see terrestrial breccias being offered up as lunar material on a 
consistent bases thus the acid test. If it fizzes or you cannot get a 
direct chain of custody to the classifying laboratory, you may consider 
asking for an immediate refund.  Save your hard earned money.  There is 
something to be learned from other markets where buyers have been stiffed.


Adam







On 10/9/2017 2:55 AM, Graham Ensor wrote:
I'm afraid it works the other way round too Adam...you would have to 
have a piece analysed by an expert to say what you are saying rather 
than just look at the pieces to see and conclude what they are. Every 
single piece of my lunar has been to the leading lab specializing in 
meteorites in the UK and been recorded, weighed and analysed to show it 
is lunar. I have the write up and science write up submitted for 
classification if you wish to see it. It is likely part of this new 
bigger find this year and matches the other material around that I see 
for what that is worth.


Which reputable dealers are you accusing of selling the lunar material 
you think is not lunar by just looking at it? I'm sure you should pass 
that information on to help the community.




On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list 
> wrote:


A lot of the garbage being sold as lunar meteorites by so-called
reputable dealers will not even pass the fizz test.

http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml


Collectors are being fleeced out of thousands of dollars by
terrestrial limestone breccias, some of which can be found in the
Atlas Mountains near an impact structure. I would avoid or ask for a
refund on any material that fizzes on a cut surface! I remember
seeing the same crustless, caliche-rich material offered up at the
Tucson Gem and Mineral show several years ago for $50.00/gram. Now
it is being offered on eBay and other venues due to a somewhat
similar appearance to genuine Lunar meteorites. I do not know if
refunds were given to those who purchase this terrestrial material
in the past or not.

This is but one example of why all stones suspected as being
planetary should be formally tested and classified.

If in doubt, throw it out or demand a refund.


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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Graham Ensor via Meteorite-list]

I'm afraid it works the other way round too Adam...you would have to have a
piece analysed by an expert to say what you are saying rather than just
look at the pieces to see and conclude what they are. Every single piece of
my lunar has been to the leading lab specializing in meteorites in the UK
and been recorded, weighed and analysed to show it is lunar. I have the
write up and science write up submitted for classification if you wish to
see it. It is likely part of this new bigger find this year and matches the
other material around that I see for what that is worth.

Which reputable dealers are you accusing of selling the lunar material you
think is not lunar by just looking at it? I'm sure you should pass that
information on to help the community.



On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> A lot of the garbage being sold as lunar meteorites by so-called reputable
> dealers will not even pass the fizz test.
>
> http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml
>
> Collectors are being fleeced out of thousands of dollars by terrestrial
> limestone breccias, some of which can be found in the Atlas Mountains near
> an impact structure. I would avoid or ask for a refund on any material that
> fizzes on a cut surface! I remember seeing the same crustless, caliche-rich
> material offered up at the Tucson Gem and Mineral show several years ago
> for $50.00/gram. Now it is being offered on eBay and other venues due to a
> somewhat similar appearance to genuine Lunar meteorites. I do not know if
> refunds were given to those who purchase this terrestrial material in the
> past or not.
>
> This is but one example of why all stones suspected as being planetary
> should be formally tested and classified.
>
> If in doubt, throw it out or demand a refund.
>
>
> __
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

A lot of the garbage being sold as lunar meteorites by so-called 
reputable dealers will not even pass the fizz test.


http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml

Collectors are being fleeced out of thousands of dollars by terrestrial 
limestone breccias, some of which can be found in the Atlas Mountains 
near an impact structure. I would avoid or ask for a refund on any 
material that fizzes on a cut surface! I remember seeing the same 
crustless, caliche-rich material offered up at the Tucson Gem and 
Mineral show several years ago for $50.00/gram. Now it is being offered 
on eBay and other venues due to a somewhat similar appearance to genuine 
Lunar meteorites. I do not know if refunds were given to those who 
purchase this terrestrial material in the past or not.


This is but one example of why all stones suspected as being planetary 
should be formally tested and classified.


If in doubt, throw it out or demand a refund.

__

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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list]

Francesco, Just found another reference to Lunar rock 12039 by Bunch (not a 
meteorite) and I stand corrected.  It has a bulk SiO2 of 47.3 % and also 
Calcalong Creeks bulk chemestry of SiO2 is actually 47.18. So, actually, Well 
within the Lunar range. I'd get it tested. see link below

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23878123_Mineralogy_petrology_and_chemistry_of_lunar_rock_12039
Carl
--
--
Love & Life

 Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list  
wrote: 
> Francesco, This puts the Fe/Mn ratio at 74.84. This is indeed within the 
> Lunar range of the most famous lunar meteorite "Calcalong Creek". I possess 
> the results of the actual study and the range based on various samples ranges 
> from 67.3 to 72 so, that does not rule it out as being Lunar. The high SiO2 
> makes it doubtful but, Lunars require extensive research. I'd have it tested 
> by a lab to be sure. 
Carl
--
Love & Life

 Francesco Moser  wrote: 
> I forget Mn, sorry!
> MnO   0.13%
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> xx
> Francesco
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] 
> Inviato: venerdì 6 ottobre 2017 15:50
> A: Francesco Moser 
> Cc: Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list 
> Oggetto: Re: [meteorite-list] help me in understand analysis
> 
> I don't see the Mn percent. That is needed to get an Fe/Mn ratio. 
> Carl
> --
> Love & Life
> 
>  Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list  
> wrote: 
> > Hello!
> a man have send me some pictures of a dozen stones and asked me wich types of 
> meteorites could be.
> I answered that for me those materials are terrestrial.
> But he tell me that for sure the stones are lunar meteorites :) He has send 
> me this analysis for proving the lunar origin of the stones.
> I'm not able to understand this data, please someone could take a look and 
> tell me if this material could be terrestrial or extra-terrestrial.
> No other analysis was done on the stones. I guess that without an oxigen 
> isotopes abundance ratio is impossible to identify a lunar rock, isn't? 
> 
> Method LF200
> 
> SiO2  47.45%
> Al2O3 19.42%
> Fe2O3 9.73%
> MgO   10.16%
> CaO   8.95%
> Na2O  1.75%
> K2O   0.79%
> TiO2  0.29%
> P2O5  0.08%
> Cr2O3 0.01%
> Ba110ppm
> Ni121ppm
> Sc7ppm
> 
> I Have also a detailed list of trace elements.
> 
> This man tell me that the presence of K2O and P2O5 confirm the 
> extra-terrestrial origin of the rocks.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!
> 
> xx
> Francesco
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> __
> 
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 
> 

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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list]

Francesco, This puts the Fe/Mn ratio at 74.84. This is indeed within the Lunar 
range of the most famous lunar meteorite "Calcalong Creek". I possess the 
results of the actual study and the range based on various samples ranges from 
67.3 to 72 so, that does not rule it out as being Lunar. The high SiO2 makes it 
doubtful but, Lunars require extensive research. I'd have it tested by a lab to 
be sure. 
Carl
--
Love & Life

 Francesco Moser  wrote: 
> I forget Mn, sorry!
> MnO   0.13%
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> xx
> Francesco
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale-
> Da: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net] 
> Inviato: venerdì 6 ottobre 2017 15:50
> A: Francesco Moser 
> Cc: Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list 
> Oggetto: Re: [meteorite-list] help me in understand analysis
> 
> I don't see the Mn percent. That is needed to get an Fe/Mn ratio. 
> Carl
> --
> Love & Life
> 
>  Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list  
> wrote: 
> > Hello!
> a man have send me some pictures of a dozen stones and asked me wich types of 
> meteorites could be.
> I answered that for me those materials are terrestrial.
> But he tell me that for sure the stones are lunar meteorites :) He has send 
> me this analysis for proving the lunar origin of the stones.
> I'm not able to understand this data, please someone could take a look and 
> tell me if this material could be terrestrial or extra-terrestrial.
> No other analysis was done on the stones. I guess that without an oxigen 
> isotopes abundance ratio is impossible to identify a lunar rock, isn't? 
> 
> Method LF200
> 
> SiO2  47.45%
> Al2O3 19.42%
> Fe2O3 9.73%
> MgO   10.16%
> CaO   8.95%
> Na2O  1.75%
> K2O   0.79%
> TiO2  0.29%
> P2O5  0.08%
> Cr2O3 0.01%
> Ba110ppm
> Ni121ppm
> Sc7ppm
> 
> I Have also a detailed list of trace elements.
> 
> This man tell me that the presence of K2O and P2O5 confirm the 
> extra-terrestrial origin of the rocks.
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance!
> 
> xx
> Francesco
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> __
> 
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
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> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 
> 

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Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[John Lutzon via Meteorite-list]

Good stuff Adam,

You covered every angle, catch phrase, pit-fall and the most likely outcome.

Well done--perfect

John


- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
To: "metlist" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis


Fake, unstudied and untested material which accounts for, in my opinion,
  well over 50% of the material currently running on eBay has become
such a problem that it forced me to write the following guide:

There is so much unstudied and fake material being sold as “lunar”
meteorites these days that I felt it necessary to comment here since
eBay will no longer allow for direct links to websites in auction
descriptions.  Unofficial, untested and unverified material carries a
lot of risks since it is basically worthless in a secondary market where
knowledgeable collectors and museums avoid it.  Every statement below
also applies to other meteorites including Martian material which I
stopped listing several years ago due to a high degree of fraudulent
listings interfering with officially studied material.  These less than
truthful offerings hurt honest dealers and collectors alike.

Real Lunar Meteorites Are Exceedingly Rare:

I will start off by stating that Lunar Meteorites are not commodities.
There is no set price per gram since they differ greatly from one
another with varying degrees of provenance, scientific importance,
weathering, preparation, history and aesthetic qualities to name few
variables.  Genuine meteorites from the Moon are exceedingly rare,
millions of times rarer than diamonds. Would you buy a diamond without
proper certification from a reputable laboratory? I didn’t think so.
The total official mass of all lunar meteorites combined is 177
kilograms or 390 pounds consisting of 139 meteorites while the combined
weight of diamonds can be measured in metric tons.

The Problem Started In 2102 Beginning Around NWA 7XXX:

The few lunar meteorite examples that were discovered before 2012 were
managed properly for the most part.  It was not until around 2012,
starting with Northwest Africa (NWA) series numbers exceeding NWA 7000,
that real problems started to take place frequently.  Moroccan dealers,
acting as middlemen for the finders in Northwest Africa, began offering
material directly at the big Gem and Mineral shows like Tucson and
Denver with piggy-backed (stolen) nomenclature (NWA numbers.)  They
fraudulently adopted these numbers based on visual appearance alone to
official meteorites that were actually studied, peer-reviewed and listed
in the Meteoritical Bulletin.  They completely bypassed the Meteoritical
Society and the Nomenclature Committees violating protocols set in place
to protect collectors and scientific laboratories.

Reputable dealers used to acquire “stones” directly from Northwest
Africa, submit a type specimen to a recognized laboratory, wait for the
laboratory results and then wait some more for the Nomenclature
Committee to assign an official name before placing meteorites on the
market.  Notice I used the word “stones” instead of Lunar Meteorites.
This is because the convention among professionals is that you cannot
call a stone a meteorite until it has gone through the proper protocols.
  Genuine lunar meteorites are far too important to bypass this process
that has been in place longer than these so-called “dealers” who place
untested and unproven material on the market.

Terms That should Raise Serious Concerns:

Paired – If the dealer’s name doesn’t match the name listed in the
Meteoritical Bulletin for the pairing number he/she is using, then a
provenance check is imperative.  The dealer should provide you with a
complete chain of custody back to the name provided in the Bulletin.
If they cannot provide this information, then it is not worth pursuing.

Likely Paired – In other words, no scientist or laboratory has looked at
it and likely never will meaning it is worthless.

Provisional – Is supposed to mean that it is waiting for official
classification and nomenclature assignment.   If it were a genuine lunar
meteorite, then why can’t the dealer wait to have it made official?

Classification Pending – Another way of saying the stone is not official
and has not been formally classified.  If a classification were really
pending, a reputable dealer would simply wait before releasing it to the
market.

Unclassified Lunar – I like this one since it sounds honest at first
glance.  A more honest statement is that it looks like a lunar to me but
you will have to send in a 20% or 20 gram type sample to a Meteoritical
Society approved laboratory, pay the fees and wait a year to find out if
it is indeed a lunar meteorite.

Will Be Studied – I would ask the dealer by who and when?

Identical To – Means absolutely nothing without laboratory confirmation.


T

Re: [meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

[Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list]

Fake, unstudied and untested material which accounts for, in my opinion, 
 well over 50% of the material currently running on eBay has become 
such a problem that it forced me to write the following guide:


There is so much unstudied and fake material being sold as “lunar” 
meteorites these days that I felt it necessary to comment here since 
eBay will no longer allow for direct links to websites in auction 
descriptions.  Unofficial, untested and unverified material carries a 
lot of risks since it is basically worthless in a secondary market where 
knowledgeable collectors and museums avoid it.  Every statement below 
also applies to other meteorites including Martian material which I 
stopped listing several years ago due to a high degree of fraudulent 
listings interfering with officially studied material.  These less than 
truthful offerings hurt honest dealers and collectors alike.


Real Lunar Meteorites Are Exceedingly Rare:

I will start off by stating that Lunar Meteorites are not commodities. 
There is no set price per gram since they differ greatly from one 
another with varying degrees of provenance, scientific importance, 
weathering, preparation, history and aesthetic qualities to name few 
variables.  Genuine meteorites from the Moon are exceedingly rare, 
millions of times rarer than diamonds. Would you buy a diamond without 
proper certification from a reputable laboratory? I didn’t think so. 
The total official mass of all lunar meteorites combined is 177 
kilograms or 390 pounds consisting of 139 meteorites while the combined 
weight of diamonds can be measured in metric tons.


The Problem Started In 2102 Beginning Around NWA 7XXX:

The few lunar meteorite examples that were discovered before 2012 were 
managed properly for the most part.  It was not until around 2012, 
starting with Northwest Africa (NWA) series numbers exceeding NWA 7000, 
that real problems started to take place frequently.  Moroccan dealers, 
acting as middlemen for the finders in Northwest Africa, began offering 
material directly at the big Gem and Mineral shows like Tucson and 
Denver with piggy-backed (stolen) nomenclature (NWA numbers.)  They 
fraudulently adopted these numbers based on visual appearance alone to 
official meteorites that were actually studied, peer-reviewed and listed 
in the Meteoritical Bulletin.  They completely bypassed the Meteoritical 
Society and the Nomenclature Committees violating protocols set in place 
to protect collectors and scientific laboratories.


Reputable dealers used to acquire “stones” directly from Northwest 
Africa, submit a type specimen to a recognized laboratory, wait for the 
laboratory results and then wait some more for the Nomenclature 
Committee to assign an official name before placing meteorites on the 
market.  Notice I used the word “stones” instead of Lunar Meteorites. 
This is because the convention among professionals is that you cannot 
call a stone a meteorite until it has gone through the proper protocols. 
 Genuine lunar meteorites are far too important to bypass this process 
that has been in place longer than these so-called “dealers” who place 
untested and unproven material on the market.


Terms That should Raise Serious Concerns:

Paired – If the dealer’s name doesn’t match the name listed in the 
Meteoritical Bulletin for the pairing number he/she is using, then a 
provenance check is imperative.  The dealer should provide you with a 
complete chain of custody back to the name provided in the Bulletin. 
If they cannot provide this information, then it is not worth pursuing.


Likely Paired – In other words, no scientist or laboratory has looked at 
it and likely never will meaning it is worthless.


Provisional – Is supposed to mean that it is waiting for official 
classification and nomenclature assignment.   If it were a genuine lunar 
meteorite, then why can’t the dealer wait to have it made official?


Classification Pending – Another way of saying the stone is not official 
and has not been formally classified.  If a classification were really 
pending, a reputable dealer would simply wait before releasing it to the 
market.


Unclassified Lunar – I like this one since it sounds honest at first 
glance.  A more honest statement is that it looks like a lunar to me but 
you will have to send in a 20% or 20 gram type sample to a Meteoritical 
Society approved laboratory, pay the fees and wait a year to find out if 
it is indeed a lunar meteorite.


Will Be Studied – I would ask the dealer by who and when?

Identical To – Means absolutely nothing without laboratory confirmation.


Things To Watch Out For:

No Name – Means it has not been studied and more than likely is a 
terrestrial stone.


Improper Name – Some use NWA  instead of a number or worse yet, use 
official sounding names that they came up with themselves.  It is best 
to avoid this type of material.


Uncut Stones And Fragments – How could it have been studied when a cut