[uf-discuss] Pingerati
Hi, Has anybody had any luck getting technorati to send pingerati pings to a service. I have asked to get hCard Requests to my web-site so that I can do some analysis but I have had no response for over a week about the progress of my request. I also have another question or two: How are people proactivly processing Microformats? Do you crawl the Internet? Or do you use other services like Pingerati? If you do use other services what do you use? Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Pingerati
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:19 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: Has anybody had any luck getting technorati to send pingerati pings to a service. I have asked to get hCard Requests to my web-site so that I can do some analysis but I have had no response for over a week about the progress of my request. I also sent a request, probably a month ago, to get pings from Pingerati and have not yet received a response. I've been too distracted by other projects to ask about it on the #technorati IRC channel, but that would be my next step. This list might also work. I also have another question or two: How are people proactivly processing Microformats? Do you crawl the Internet? Yes. Or do you use other services like Pingerati? I'd like to. If you do use other services what do you use? I'm still crawling for microformats here, though depending on what kind of input I get from Pingerati, I may stop doing that in a future incarnation: http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/ Results are in hAtom, so you should be able to consume that easily with any hAtom parser. If you're looking for hCards, here's every URL I've found to contain hCards (likely slow to load, as it's not a paged list): http://www.randomchaos.com/microformats/base/?key=vcard But I'm sure Technorati has a lot more, and I'm not doing any sort of pinging. Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] vcard fn for name in A. B. Smith format
On 8/28/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good Question Andy, you have several potential quirks with the string A. B. Smith. I am assuming 'A' is an abberiviation for a first name? 'B' is a middle name, and 'Smith' is the last name you can do the following: Yeah, but I don't think you can asssume that. Better to just treat A. B. as the given-name string. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] vcard fn for name in A. B. Smith format
On 8/29/06, Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am assuming 'A' is an abberiviation for a first name? 'B' is a middle name, and 'Smith' is the last name you can do the following: On 8/28/06, Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, but I don't think you can asssume that. Better to just treat A. B. as the given-name string. That's a good point, there are quite a few people whose given name is their 'middle' name, it could be A. Brian Smith or Anthony B. Smith, you can't necessarily assume. -Ciaran ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] vcard fn for name in A. B. Smith format
On 8/29/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's a good point, there are quite a few people whose given name is their 'middle' name, it could be A. Brian Smith or Anthony B. Smith, you can't necessarily assume. Exactly. Middle name is a silly concept in the real world, particularly when you get beyond North America and maybe parts of Wstern Europe. One of the things I think vCard got right is that the name model is quite international-friendly. It does not assume anything in particular about the relation between sort order and name part type. It's why there's no first/last/middle structures, and why they have the sort-string property. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] vcard fn for name in A. B. Smith format
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Brian Suda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes vcard for someone whose name is given as A. B. Smith. Good Question Andy, you have several potential quirks with the string A. B. Smith. [...] We need to explicitly mark-up what each portion of the string means. div class=vcard span class=fn n span class=given-nameA/span. span class=additional-nameB/span. span class=family-nameSmith/span /span /div My name can be written as A. J. Mabbett, but my given name isn't A, nor is J one of my names. (On the other hand, I could legally change my name to A. J., or to A J or AJ, if I so chose). This gives explicit meaning to all the portions of the name and will import into your address book just fine, but there is abit more semantics we can add. div class=vcard span class=fn n abbr title=Andy class=given-nameA/abbr. abbr title=Brian class=additional-nameB/abbr . span class=family-nameSmith/span /span /div In this case, I have no idea what the A B stand for. I hope this helps It has given me food for thought, thanks. I suppose I could use: div class=vcard span class=fn n A. B. span class=family-nameSmith/span /span /div -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Ordered Lists
Hi Paul, On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: Hi, This is going to sound pretty trivial, and I hope that no one minds me asking this. I am looking for a way to do Top 10's. I don't want to suggest a Microformat or anything for this. But I was wondering if anyone has experience in parsing Lists of information. My first thought is to make a parser look for OL XHTML elements and then work off that, perhaps using the title attribute to determine the topic of the ordered list. Yeah, that absolutely sounds like the right way to go. I'm not quite clear on what you're using 'title' for, though. Do you have multiple lists per page, and need a way to differentiate the title of the list from the title of the page? -- Ernie P. Would people be able to suggest other ways they would consider looking for ordered information. i.e do you think that there would be any semantic meaning to the posistion of elements in an xoxo formatted listing or OPML. Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan http://www.kinlan.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Ordered Lists
Yeah, I would like to be able to understand what the list is about, so something like a title would give a good descriptive meaning to what the items in the list relate to. For instance the title could be Favorite Films, obviously the LI's would then be order of the favorites. Title was one of the only attributes that I thought could be used to determine what the list is about. I was also initially thinking about putting a class attribute saying something like positive or negative for the ordering of the elements in the list. It is just that I would like to be able to write a progam that can parse lists of information that has a meaning so that I can merge more than one list together. Obviously OL, LI inferes a kind of semantic meaning, and I could already use the OL's without getting everyone to adopt a new format such as rel=tag etc. I am just looking into ideas and trying to see if people already do this kind of thing. Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan On 29/08/06, Dr. Ernie Prabhakar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Paul, On Aug 29, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: Hi, This is going to sound pretty trivial, and I hope that no one minds me asking this. I am looking for a way to do Top 10's. I don't want to suggest a Microformat or anything for this. But I was wondering if anyone has experience in parsing Lists of information. My first thought is to make a parser look for OL XHTML elements and then work off that, perhaps using the title attribute to determine the topic of the ordered list. Yeah, that absolutely sounds like the right way to go. I'm not quite clear on what you're using 'title' for, though. Do you have multiple lists per page, and need a way to differentiate the title of the list from the title of the page? -- Ernie P. Would people be able to suggest other ways they would consider looking for ordered information. i.e do you think that there would be any semantic meaning to the posistion of elements in an xoxo formatted listing or OPML. Kind Regards, Paul Kinlan http://www.kinlan.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Ordered Lists
Hi Paul, On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Paul Kinlan wrote: Yeah, I would like to be able to understand what the list is about, so something like a title would give a good descriptive meaning to what the items in the list relate to. For instance the title could be Favorite Films, obviously the LI's would then be order of the favorites. As far as I can tell, that is a perfectly appropriate use of the title attribute. http://www.netmechanic.com/news/vol6/html_no1.htm It does lead to some redundancy between the human-readable caption (which presumably is in an H1 or whatever), but it does seem to serve your purpose. Anybody else have an opinion? -enp ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Problems with hReview Creator?
On Aug 28, 2006, at 11:43 AM, Ryan King wrote: On Aug 27, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Brian Suda wrote: I have been working alot recently on hReviews and have been strugling to find valid data - now i think i know why. I believe there is an error in the output of the hReview Creator[1]. According to hReview specification[2] it says: ... However, when using item info subproperties (fn, url, photo), they MUST be nested inside the item element. To me that reads that an class=fn should be nested inside the class=item h2 class=itemspan class=fnFlux capacitor/span/h2 The output from the hReview Creator is: h2 class=item fnFlux capacitor/h2 If this is an error it might explain why so many examples in the wild are not conformant. Um, yeah. That would be my mistake. I'll fix it today. Fixed. -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Article: The Big Picture on Microformats
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/the_big_picture_on_microformats/ -- Regards, Gazza ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Citation: next steps?
Hi, aside from adding a few good examples of existing formats, it looks like there hasn't been any movement toward the Aug 30 deadline for hCite 0.1. Should we reschedule the goal? Also, what is the immediate next step on the path to a recommendation? Do we need to clarify the existing research on the wiki? Is anyone waiting for an answer or agreement before moving forward? Thanks, -mike -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Citation: experiences parsing DC metadata
Hi, from recent list discussion I discovered that archives using EPrints.org had Dublin Core metadata in meta tags on individual item pages. I posted those examples to the wiki, and then implemented support for importing that metadata into BibDesk. See this post for details and a movie, once it uploads: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/?p=63 I'm pretty happy with the feature. But I still want a microformat for inline citations. I'm goning to share a couple of quick impressions from getting something working with Dublin Core terms. What I did was translate the available terms into BibTeX, which in this case is what is necessary to make it useful for someone who wants to cite the item in a new paper. 1. DC terms for creator and contributor don't map clearly to author and editor, at least not according to the DC standadrd. Maybe there's some convention about how it's usually done, but I couldn't find it. IMO, 'author' and 'editor' make more sense, and that's probably because that's how everything else I'm familiar with does it (except for the super-thorough MARC relator scheme [marcrel], which I don't think is author-friendly). 2. The DC type term, even though it was a little vague, was very useful for my purposes - any serious citation database is going to want to distinguish types, and it makes it a lot easier to import in a usable manner. If it doesn't have a type, I default to the BibTeX misc type, and that's an acceptable fallback. I think a good microformat should allow specifying the type of an entry, but should not require it. There are situations where the type won't be available, and since there is probably a reasonable generic fallback for any consumer to use, some data is better than getting none because the format requires a type. If this sounds right, it means we need to discuss what a reasonable choice for allowable citation types is. The BibTeX format allows any type, and leaves it to the consumer (a style file) to figure out what to do with types it doesn't understand (commonly just ignored). It looks like Dublin Core also allows arbitrary values for the type attribute but recommends you choose from the DC type vocabulary [dctv], which has very little overlap with BibTeX's types - the DCTV covers things BibTeX doesn't like Event, Dataset, and MovingImage, while most of the standard BibTeX types would be classified simply as Text. The Eprints sites I looked at went their own way, and I just tried to cover everything they let you search for. What does everyone think about types? Thanks, -mike [dctv]:http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-type-vocabulary/ [marcrel]:http://www.loc.gov/marc/sourcecode/relator/relatorlist.html -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] How's my hReview?
Here's my first stab at marking up one of my reviews with hReview: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/reviews/WarksBirding2005.htm how does it look? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Citation: next steps?
Hello Mike, thanks for bringing this up. I spent a good portion of the weekend looking at my earlier straw proposal. I started to create an XMDP file and took the examples listed on the wiki and attempted to mark them-up with the citation microformat. This would help to find any deficiencies. The 3 main points i came across so far are: 1) IDENTIFIERS 2) FORMAT TYPES 3) NESTING 1) In hCard/hCalendar there is a UID field. Added with URL it makes for a great unique identifier. There are loads of other identifers besides URL, ISBN, LOC call number, SKU, ISSN, etc. Many of these are unique in their domain, but not globally unique. So how to they get marked-up? Much like the hCard TEL/ADR properties, we can use something like: div class=uidspan class=typeISBN/span: span class=value123456/span/div This makes the encoding the most extensible... if we start use class=isbn then it is an enumerated list, with class=type it is open ended. 2) I keep mis-using format, format is the medium - hardback, softback. The TYPE (there probably is a better word - container?) is book, article, conference, manifesto, etc. Much like the identifers we can make an enumerated list of values, class=book, class=article, but that boxes us in, whereas something like: span class=typearticle/span leaves things more open. 3) Nesting citation data in a citation. The ability to nest the same microformat inside itself is something that other microformats don't explicitly handle. The two options are: i) Using class=book div class=hcite div class=book span class=fnBook Title/span div class=chapter span class=fnChapter Title/span /div /div /div This makes things easy to nest and to figure out exactly what is associated with what, but the downside is that we have enumerated lists of values for the class properties. ii) using the TYPE for book div class=hcite div class=typebook/div span class=fnBook Title/span div class=typechapter/div span class=fnChapter Title/span /div now the class=fn is not nested inside the class=book or class=chapter so there would have to be some other mechanism to associate the data with the type. This is just a brief summary of the outstanding issues. I have been quite busy with other things, and i'm not sure exactly how or where to proceed? I have a feeling the citation discussion is pretty heavy and i don't want to waste people's time with all the back and forth messages on the mailing list - it is high traffic enough already... the wiki is nice, but not everyone keeps a close eye on it... IRC is another option. We've done 'meet-ups' in the past and they worked fairly well? so i'll leave it up to others on where/how we should proceed. maybe like the REST mailing list we need to spin off a temporary citations mailing list? (although that means YAML, Yet Another Mailing List) I am still working on exactly WHAT we are proceeding on. I'll be offline for the next few days due to traveling, so a deadline of the 30th is probably not realistic. I am certainly open to suggestions. -brian On 8/29/06, Michael McCracken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, aside from adding a few good examples of existing formats, it looks like there hasn't been any movement toward the Aug 30 deadline for hCite 0.1. Should we reschedule the goal? Also, what is the immediate next step on the path to a recommendation? Do we need to clarify the existing research on the wiki? Is anyone waiting for an answer or agreement before moving forward? Thanks, -mike -- Michael McCracken UCSD CSE PhD Candidate research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/ misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/ ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Citation: next steps?
On 8/29/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a good summary to date and deserving of being captured on the citation-brainstorming page. I agree. I think the fundmental last hump to get over is the choice between a largely monolithic and flat BibTeX-like approach, and a more modular and relational DC-like approach. The choice is crtiical because it has significant implications to the flexibility of hCite. On the nesting example, though, this would be the more typical case (chapter in a book, rather than vice versa), and one could forego typing: div class=hcite div class=chapter span class=titleChapter Title/span div class=isPartOf span class=titleBook Title/span /div /div /div To me typing is nice, but not critical, paricularly if the rest of the data is sound. Bruce ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Citation: next steps?
Bruce, do you have a canonical example that gets at exactly what you
mean by monolithic and flat vs. modular and relational? I think I used
to understand what you meant by those, but I want to be sure. Please
bear with me on this, I know I asked you a similar question a while
back, but I think that what you're asking for is actually not as
complicated as it may sound.
Do you just mean the ability to mark up a relation between two citation items?
For instance, if BibTeX had a convention of things like this:
@inbook{chapterkey,
title=chapter 1,
cites=articlekey,article2key,...,
partof=bookkey}
@book{bookkey,
title=book}
@article{articlekey,
title=article}
etc...
Would you consider that relational? That kind of thing fulfills what I
think you want, but I'd like to know if you're talking about something
else too.
ISTR that you've also described BibTeX's model as flat because author
names in BibTeX are somewhat underspecified, but since a citation
microformat will use hCard, that's not an issue here, right?
Thanks,
-mike
On 8/29/06, Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 8/29/06, Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is a good summary to date and deserving of being captured on the
citation-brainstorming page.
I agree. I think the fundmental last hump to get over is the choice
between a largely monolithic and flat BibTeX-like approach, and a more
modular and relational DC-like approach. The choice is crtiical
because it has significant implications to the flexibility of hCite.
On the nesting example, though, this would be the more typical case
(chapter in a book, rather than vice versa), and one could forego
typing:
div class=hcite
div class=chapter
span class=titleChapter Title/span
div class=isPartOf
span class=titleBook Title/span
/div
/div
/div
To me typing is nice, but not critical, paricularly if the rest of the
data is sound.
Bruce
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Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/
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Re: [uf-discuss] How's my hReview?
It is not a valid review yet, you are missing a few things. The following is a snippit of the site. div class=hreview h1West Midland Bird Club/h1 h2 id=content class=item'Warwickshire Birding 2005', by Steve Seal/h2 p class=centerDVDbrpound;5.99/p div class=pic-rightimg class=photo src=../images/biblio/WarksBirding2005.jpg width=250 height=455 alt= title=cover of Warwickshire Birding 2005/div div class=description.../div /div You correctly have the class=hreview, nested inside that there is a class=item (you'd be suprised how many reviews don't actualy have an item being reviewed!) The problem is that there is no class=fn nested in the class=item. There are a few ways to fix this. A) just add an FN inside the H2. h2 id=content class=itemspan class=fn'Warwickshire Birding 2005', by Steve Seal/span/h2 B) create an outer div container. You have a class=photo which is another hReview property - assuming you are actually intending that to be part of the hReview, that needs to be nested inside the class=item as well. div class=hreview div class=item h1West Midland Bird Club/h1 h2 id=content class=fn'Warwickshire Birding 2005', by Steve Seal/h2 p class=centerDVDbrpound;5.99/p div class=pic-rightimg class=photo src=../images/biblio/WarksBirding2005.jpg width=250 height=455 alt= title=cover of Warwickshire Birding 2005/div /div !-- ends item -- div class=description.../div /div There is no RATING, which is OK that is optional, but IMHO that is kinda the point of a review. finnaly, the reviewer hCard is also incorrect: p id=creditspan class=reviewer vcard fnAndy Mabbett/spanbr span class=dtreviewed title=200603March 2006/span/p you need to nest the class=fn inside the class=vcard p id=credit class=reviewer vcardspan class=fnAndy Mabbett/spanbr span class=dtreviewed title=200603March 2006/span/p i hope this helps. If you make those changes let us know and we can take another pass at it and see if there are any other errors. -brian On 8/29/06, Andy Mabbett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my first stab at marking up one of my reviews with hReview: http://www.westmidlandbirdclub.com/reviews/WarksBirding2005.htm how does it look? -- Andy Mabbett Say NO! to compulsory ID Cards: http://www.no2id.net/ Free Our Data: http://www.freeourdata.org.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss -- brian suda http://suda.co.uk ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] OpenSearch
Hi All It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share my latest post about how we added the OpenSearch protocol to the Yahoo! Tech site. This open protocol lets you define how your web site's search engine works and then activates the personal search box in IE7 and Firefox 2. It also helps the aggregating search engines, such as A9. http://www.last-child.com/add-opensearch-to-your-web-site/ Sorry if it is too off-topic. Ted Drake Yahoo! Tech ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] OpenSearch
This looks very possible. In particular, (1) according the article, Yahoo only returns its results in HTML, so we know HTML is good (2) one could add an extra field to the OpenSearch XML (a description file about how your results are returned) indicating that the file is hAtom (3) parties not understanding hAtom can just display HTML (4) parties wating to understand hAtom can do it themselves or use a webservice When I was at MashupCamp in January (Feb?) there was a guy from A9/OpenSearch very interested in mashup type applications and developer feedback so there's a door open for us. I'll also note that his WordPress integration problem will probably go away if we did this, as an independent XML-feed result will not have to be returned; Regards, etc... David http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com On 8/30/06, Scott Reynen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:23 PM, Ted Drake wrote: It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share my latest post about how we added the OpenSearch protocol to the Yahoo! Tech site. This open protocol lets you define how your web site's search engine works and then activates the personal search box in IE7 and Firefox 2. It also helps the aggregating search engines, such as A9. http://www.last-child.com/add-opensearch-to-your-web-site/ Sorry if it is too off-topic. I'm not sure this is off-topic at all. I think OpenSearch solves a problem by extending RSS that microformats could solve by extending HTML, possibly hAtom specifically. The problem is identifying search results for reuse in aggregation, reformatting, etc. The use cases are obvious as there are plenty of applications that already reuse this type of data and could benefit from a standard format for already published search results (A9, OS X Sherlock, etc.), there's certainly no shortage of search results on the web to use as real- world examples from the general web searches to very narrow-focus searches, and between hAtom and OpenSearch, I suspect most of the work is already done. hSearch? ` Peace, Scott ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
