Re: Assigning OpenBSD server to a single IP to Two NICs , Connect to Two Switches

[Bret S. Lambert]

On Thu, Mar 08, 2012 at 01:25:35PM +0800, Pok Yie wrote:
> Hye guys,
> 
> I have an issue to ask here. I have two core switches. Am I able to use a
> single IP for two NICs, and each NICs connecting to each core switches to
> provide fail-over?
> 
> 
> Core 1 == NIC 1 [192.168.0.1 ] NIC 2 == Core 2
> 
> So, my client only know a single IP address, regardless core 1 or core 2
> down (not both) at the same time.
> 

You might take a look at trunking the two; the ifconfig man page should
have enough info to get you started on that.

> -pokyie-
> From Bangkok with love

Assigning OpenBSD server to a single IP to Two NICs , Connect to Two Switches

[Pok Yie]

Hye guys,

I have an issue to ask here. I have two core switches. Am I able to use a
single IP for two NICs, and each NICs connecting to each core switches to
provide fail-over?


Core 1 == NIC 1 [192.168.0.1 ] NIC 2 == Core 2

So, my client only know a single IP address, regardless core 1 or core 2
down (not both) at the same time.

-pokyie-
>From Bangkok with love

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Kenneth R Westerback]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 06:19:02PM +0100, David Vasek wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:
> 
> >"While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> >at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> >tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> >one so easily..."
> >
> >I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
> >the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
> >approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
> >happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
> >an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
> >survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
> 
> Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
> disasterous way. And this the case.
> 
> Regards,
> David
> 

What disaster? The OP recovered his MBR with a little effort. Anyone who
couldn't do the same for a munged MBR should not be using anything 
that does not have a GUI installation process. Let alone OpenBSD, where
we pride ourselves on the amount of rope that fits on a floppy.

Think of it as evolution in action.

 Ken

Re: X mouse acceleration?

[Alan Corey]

On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Brett wrote:


On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:41:39 -0500 (EST)
Alan Corey  wrote:


Thanks, I'll look at that.  Are your values exact or off-the-cuff?  I get
that 230 isn't a valid property, but you've got me started reading the
xinput man page anyway.  I'm playing with properties 236-239 mainly.





Hi Alan,
I had good results combining xinput and xset (my display is the same 
resolution):

xinput --set-prop 7 230 90
xset mouse 70 20

Brett.




The above are the actual values I use. For my mouse, property 230 is the "Device 
Accel Velocity Scaling." Like you say, you will have to read ximput man page 
further, as it sounds like your mouse uses different properties.



Yeah, that's 239 on mine.

Re: X mouse acceleration?

[Brett]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:41:39 -0500 (EST)
Alan Corey  wrote:

> Thanks, I'll look at that.  Are your values exact or off-the-cuff?  I get 
> that 230 isn't a valid property, but you've got me started reading the 
> xinput man page anyway.  I'm playing with properties 236-239 mainly.
> 


> > Hi Alan,
> > I had good results combining xinput and xset (my display is the same 
> > resolution):
> >
> > xinput --set-prop 7 230 90
> > xset mouse 70 20
> >
> > Brett.
> 

The above are the actual values I use. For my mouse, property 230 is the 
"Device Accel Velocity Scaling." Like you say, you will have to read ximput man 
page further, as it sounds like your mouse uses different properties. 

Re: current releases not updated?

[Kenneth R Westerback]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 09:17:27AM +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 09:07:32AM +0100, Didier Wiroth wrote:
> 
> > In the past current os packages were updated more often, is there a
> > reason why packages are (somewhat old) or are there some changes in
> > current update behavior?
> 
> There was a similar pause in production of snapshots and their packages 
> around release-cutting time about half a year ago too.  I'd expect snapshot 

And six months before that, and ...

The snapshot production always stops for a while after the release is 
complete.

 Ken

> updates to resume soonish, but I have no firm dates or actual officialish 
> info. 
> 
> - Peter
> 
> -- 
> Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
> http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
> "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
> delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

Re: X mouse acceleration?

[Alan Corey]

Thanks, I'll look at that.  Are your values exact or off-the-cuff?  I get 
that 230 isn't a valid property, but you've got me started reading the 
xinput man page anyway.  I'm playing with properties 236-239 mainly.


I remember you used to be able to stick a resolution line in your 
XFree86.conf and that took care of it.


On Thu, 8 Mar 2012, Brett wrote:


On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:21:55 -0500 (EST)
Alan Corey  wrote:


I'm trying to speed up my mouse.  If I do xset m 10 4 or even xset m 100
4, I can see the change with xset q, but the mouse acts the same.  It
works under Linux (multiboot) but not here.




I'm using 1920x1080 resolution and I have to pick up my
mouse and move it 4 or 5 times to get across the screen.

Thanks, Alan



Hi Alan,
I had good results combining xinput and xset (my display is the same 
resolution):

xinput --set-prop 7 230 90
xset mouse 70 20

Brett.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Ted Unangst]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012, Nick Holland wrote:
> On 03/07/12 18:32, Marc Espie wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 10:10:12AM -0500, Nick Holland wrote:
>>> yes, scrollback is something that was sacrificed on the installer to
>>> keep it able to fit on a floppy (contrary to another contribution to
>>> this thread).  Unfortunate, annoying, and unfortunately, I got no
>>> better ideas.
>>
>> Is it true for all images ? I figure the ramdisk_cd and bsd.rd images
>> probably have room enough for console scrollback, don't they ?
> 
> It's true for all images install images, yes.
> (and that's for i386, amd64.  Most other platforms don't have any kind
> of scrollback at all).
> 
> I would guess bsd.rd would have space, if the scrollback were to be
> separated out.  Without looking (i.e., I'm about to make a fool of
> myself), I think it is part of the "option SMALL_KERNEL", so to put it
> in bsd.rd (=cd ramdisk) would require breaking out the code...not sure
> how that would go over.

SCROLLBACK_SUPPORT (the actual relevant option) is typically only
defined if not SMALL_KERNEL, though you could add it as an option on
its own.

Re: X mouse acceleration?

[Brett]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:21:55 -0500 (EST)
Alan Corey  wrote:

> I'm trying to speed up my mouse.  If I do xset m 10 4 or even xset m 100 
> 4, I can see the change with xset q, but the mouse acts the same.  It 
> works under Linux (multiboot) but not here.

 
> I'm using 1920x1080 resolution and I have to pick up my 
> mouse and move it 4 or 5 times to get across the screen.
> 
> Thanks, Alan
> 

Hi Alan,
I had good results combining xinput and xset (my display is the same 
resolution):

xinput --set-prop 7 230 90
xset mouse 70 20

Brett.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[R0me0 ***]

"*UNIX was not designed to stop its users from doing stupid things, as that
would also stop them from doing clever things.*"  Doug
Gwyn


Em 7 de margo de 2012 11:27, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos <
leonardo.sab...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Russell Garrison
>  wrote:
> > I am absolutely intrigued by this story despite my better judgement.
> > You were able to cook your own full OpenBSD installer on a USB stick
> > with GRUB instead of downloading an ISO or using PXE, but you failed
> > disk setup in the installer? It really would be interesting to see if
> > you can read just http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html , particularly
> > 4.5.3 and then come back to us with anything other than a mea culpa.
>
> I admit to pressing Enter at some of the questions without reading
> carefully. It simply never crossed my mind that the default action for
> the installer is to erase the whole disk without chance for review. I
> still think that's a disaster waiting to happen.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Christer Solskogen
>  wrote:
> > What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
> > REALLY sure?"?
>
> Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
> Just saying.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Marcos Bento Luna]

tl:dr: yes, I agree with the OP - that step could be more informative
and it would be a good idea to include further confirmation before
effectively writing changes to the disk/MBR.
--
Hi everybody, I'm new here and I have been trying OpenBSD for
the past couple of weeks, and finally today I joined the mailing list.
It was funny (and sad at the same time) to read this unfortunate
event that happened with Leonardo, and it was particularly
interesting to me because as a newcomer to the OpenBSD world
I also struggled with the disk partitioning step and his story
could very well be mine. I also ran into a huge risk when installing
it into my computer's hard disk drive trying to achieve a dual boot setup.

Luckily, I first installed OpenBSD a dozen times on a VM to get
an idea of dealing with the OpenBSD installation, package
management, etc. After learning what I considered enough to
get my hands dirty and performing a real installation I burned
the iso into a cd and began the process. However, I had
forgotten that I would be required to create the OpenBSD partition
because every time I installed it on the VM I had choose
the whole disk option. But I wasnt careless, and choose the
custom layout option. However, the next step wasn't very
practical for a newbie like me to easily visualize what exactly
I had to do, how to do it and where it would be made. At this point
I just felt it wasn't woth the risk and then I simply power off the
machine by holdind the power button down.

Back to windows I did some googling about dual boot setups.
Found some info who said what I should do but not how to do it. What I found
was that I should use fdisk to select the desired partition and mark it
as OpenBSD partition (A6). Ok, another try and I'm back staring
at the disk partitioning tool, however I cold not guess wich was
the correct partition I should select, because the information was
displayed in bytes, not GBs, and the OpenBSD partition I had created
was of similar size to another three partitions already in place.
Back to windows I decided to use Easeus partition magic to change
the filetype of the partition I had previously created for openBSD
to ext2 for better visualization. Finished it I was back to
the openbsd install and finally could identify the correct partition I was
looking for and succeded at installing it without erasing all my data.
The final step was to go back to windows and use a tool named
EasyBCD to add the OpenBSD partition to the boot menu and
I finally had my dualboot setup in place.

Well as you guys can see installing openbsd is a bit complicated
for newbies like me, and I got thing done as I could. The possibility
to have all your data wiped
instantly because of a very simplistic installer could be, indeed, a big
turn off for new, inexperienced ( and sometimes careless) users.
Some linux instalers i used are more straightforward and
certainly help people like me to perform a succesfull install
the way we want it without screwing everything up.

Can the installer improve? Yes. Is it a technical challenge to implement
further assistance? I dont know. What I do know is that it
would be a very nice addition to the curent installer in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Nick Holland]

On 03/07/12 18:32, Marc Espie wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 10:10:12AM -0500, Nick Holland wrote:
>> yes, scrollback is something that was sacrificed on the installer to
>> keep it able to fit on a floppy (contrary to another contribution to
>> this thread).  Unfortunate, annoying, and unfortunately, I got no
>> better ideas.
> 
> Is it true for all images ? I figure the ramdisk_cd and bsd.rd images
> probably have room enough for console scrollback, don't they ?

It's true for all images install images, yes.
(and that's for i386, amd64.  Most other platforms don't have any kind
of scrollback at all).

I would guess bsd.rd would have space, if the scrollback were to be
separated out.  Without looking (i.e., I'm about to make a fool of
myself), I think it is part of the "option SMALL_KERNEL", so to put it
in bsd.rd (=cd ramdisk) would require breaking out the code...not sure
how that would go over.

um.  I am so out-of-line commenting to Marc Espie about code...  *sigh*

Nick.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Gerald Chudyk]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
>
You would have loved an operating system called IMOS from NCR. They
had a useful command that would delete files from a disk. If you
forgot to mention which file ( by typing del) the system would
proceed to delete each file on the disk. It would politely display
each file name as it was deleted.

After the shock and the denial, one would scream at the data terminal,
and then make a mad dash for the computer room where the processor
panel required a sequence of buttons be pressed before it would reset.

Of course this could only have happened at night when no one else was
using the system, and the backups would not have been missing.

I am trying to remember who this happened to, but it was a very long
time ago and I can only recall a bitter struggle with nightmares that
plagued me around that very same time.

Hmm... I think I can even recall the button sequence on the
processor..."". Strange how
that should be engraved in my memory after all the years that have
past.

Regards,
Gerald.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Marc Espie]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 10:10:12AM -0500, Nick Holland wrote:
> yes, scrollback is something that was sacrificed on the installer to
> keep it able to fit on a floppy (contrary to another contribution to
> this thread).  Unfortunate, annoying, and unfortunately, I got no
> better ideas.

Is it true for all images ? I figure the ramdisk_cd and bsd.rd images
probably have room enough for console scrollback, don't they ?

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Marc Espie]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 07:41:47PM +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> I also agree with those who pointed out that doing experimental OS
> installs on a machine you care about is not a particularly smart thing
> to do.

It's also fairly stupid to ever do an install without first backing up
the critical parts.  You should always have a backup copy of your
partition table somewhere *else* first.

That simple rule has saved my ass more than once.

Re: openbsd 5.0 lifebook p1110 kernal panic on suspend/standby

[Ted Unangst]

As a short term workaround, type -c at the boot prompt, then "disable
cbb" at the next prompt, then quit, and see what happens.

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012, Kendall Shaw wrote:
> Kendall Shaw  writes:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a lifebook p1110 which causes a kernel panic related to APM, I
>> think. Either by setting power savings settings in BIOS to suspend or
> standby, or
>> disabling power savings in BIOS and running apmd and apm -z or apm -S
>> causes a kernal panic.
>>
>> Do you have any advice, other than give up on being able to use suspend?
>>
>> The sub-notebook has no serial port, so I'm typing the trace and ps
>> results:
>>
>> trace:
>>
>> Debugger(d08cee78,d85dde58,d08ad043,d85dde58,0) at Debugger+0x4
>> panic(d08ad043,d10cc000,d85dde8c,d10aea00,0) at panic+0x5d
>> timeout_add(d10aea4c,a,8,0,d10aea00) at timeout_add+0xbf
>> pccbb_checksockstat(d10aea00,0,0,ff00,0) at pccbb_checksockstat+0x6e
>> pccbbactivate(d10aea00,3,d85ddeec,d059f4b8,d10b1e00) at
>> pccbbactivate+0x409
>> config_activate_children(d10b1e00,3,3,12,50307dc) at
>> config_activate_children+0x45
>> config_activate_children(d10b0fc0,3,246,0,1) at
>> config_activate_children+0x45
>> apm_suspend(2,0,d85ddf50,800b,0) at apm_suspend+0x91
>> apm_periodic_check(d10b1f80,20,d097df84,0,d10b1f80) at
>> apm_periodic_check+0x19c
>> apm_thread(d10b1f80) at apm_thread+0x20
>> Bad frame pointer: 0xd0b8ce38
>>
>> ps:
>>
>> apmd
>> getty
>> ksh
>> cron
>> inetd
>> sendmail
>> sshd
>> ntpd
>> pflogd
>> syslogd
>> dhclient
>> aiodoned
>> update
>> cleaner
>> reaper
>> pagedown
>> crypto
>> pfpurge
>> pcic0,0,1
>> pcic0,0,0
>> usbtask
>> usbatsk
>> apm0
>> syswq
>> idle0
>> kmthread
>> init
>> swapper
> 
> Someone sent me email pointing out that I should include the panic
> string:
> 
> timeout_add: not initialized
> 
> Kendall

Re: openbsd 5.0 lifebook p1110 kernal panic on suspend/standby

[Kendall Shaw]

Kendall Shaw  writes:

> Hi,
>
> I have a lifebook p1110 which causes a kernel panic related to APM, I
> think. Either by setting power savings settings in BIOS to suspend or 
> standby, or
> disabling power savings in BIOS and running apmd and apm -z or apm -S
> causes a kernal panic.
>
> Do you have any advice, other than give up on being able to use suspend?
>
> The sub-notebook has no serial port, so I'm typing the trace and ps
> results:
>
> trace:
>
> Debugger(d08cee78,d85dde58,d08ad043,d85dde58,0) at Debugger+0x4
> panic(d08ad043,d10cc000,d85dde8c,d10aea00,0) at panic+0x5d
> timeout_add(d10aea4c,a,8,0,d10aea00) at timeout_add+0xbf
> pccbb_checksockstat(d10aea00,0,0,ff00,0) at pccbb_checksockstat+0x6e
> pccbbactivate(d10aea00,3,d85ddeec,d059f4b8,d10b1e00) at
> pccbbactivate+0x409
> config_activate_children(d10b1e00,3,3,12,50307dc) at
> config_activate_children+0x45
> config_activate_children(d10b0fc0,3,246,0,1) at
> config_activate_children+0x45
> apm_suspend(2,0,d85ddf50,800b,0) at apm_suspend+0x91
> apm_periodic_check(d10b1f80,20,d097df84,0,d10b1f80) at
> apm_periodic_check+0x19c
> apm_thread(d10b1f80) at apm_thread+0x20
> Bad frame pointer: 0xd0b8ce38
>
> ps:
>
> apmd
> getty
> ksh
> cron
> inetd
> sendmail
> sshd
> ntpd
> pflogd
> syslogd
> dhclient
> aiodoned
> update
> cleaner
> reaper
> pagedown
> crypto
> pfpurge
> pcic0,0,1
> pcic0,0,0
> usbtask
> usbatsk
> apm0
> syswq
> idle0
> kmthread
> init
> swapper

Someone sent me email pointing out that I should include the panic
string:

timeout_add: not initialized

Kendall

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Kevin Chadwick]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:52:45 -0500
Sean Howard wrote:

> This error is the best error you can make. Keeps you respecting your system 
> and your own ability to control it.

Leonardo, have you ever started zeroing the wrong /dev/ with dd yet?

Backup everything important and hope it saves you more time than it
costs.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dan Farrell]

I agree with Holtzman's sentiment, the OP should consider himself lucky
that he hit a struggling point as early as he did, lest he hit a much
bigger "first brick wall" later down the road. Now he has the benefit of
respecting the OS while still getting a feel for it.
On Mar 7, 2012 3:21 PM, "daniel holtzman"  wrote:

> Let's all step back a moment: Leonardo is neither the first nor will he
> be the last person to be bitten by something in OpenBSD. I say we tell
> him we are sorry for his troubles, giggle a little bit, give him a
> hearty pat on the back, and shout,
>
>  "Welcome to the elite community of OpenBSD users! We're not all
>  geniuses, we don't have all the answers but we all sure as fsck like
>  a quality product and the opportunity for deep learning, especially in
>  a community of like-minded people."
>
> I think it's safe to say that _everyone_ who uses OpenBSD is necessarily
> curious by nature and understands the rigors of learning. We often
> fiddle with things and frequently make really foolish mistakes--that's
> how we learn.
>
> Leonardo will either "never, ever touch[ing] OpenBSD with a ten-foot
> pole again", or he'll become a satisfied and dedicated user. That is
> really up to him and his penchant for mastery and self-reliance. The
> opportunities for these things are huge in OpenBSD because the project
> sticks to its overriding mission, quality, in every aspect; including
> documentation.
>
> By side-effect or perhaps by design, the OpenBSD community weeds out
> those people who are not seriously dedicated. It may not welcome the
> naive and it may not hand-hold the inexperienced, but it certainly does
> not prevent the naive and inexperienced from learning. Lurk a lot. Grow
> a thicker skin. You can be sneered at and called all sorts of names. Do
> you want to work at mastering fascinating skills by some of the best in
> the industry or do you want a nice touchy-feely experience? Rarely, you
> can have both, but mostly, in real life, we have to make choices.
>
> When I first started using, and yes, "using"--like a drug (2.5 or 2.6),
> I was lucky enough to have a steady supply of old machines (i386, sparc,
> vax, ppc) and became install-happy. I'd love to show off how quickly I
> could do an install over the net. I figure that I did at least 100
> installs in my first 6 months; trying to get partitions/labels just
> right; messing things up and starting over; making a lot of mistakes.
> I've not found another OS, ever, that was so quick and easy to install.
> OpenBSD gave me the ability to learn a lot about installation that I
> wouldn't have otherwise had the patience to do. I learned a new way of
> thinking: where to "try" things and where to "do" things.
>
> So, if you've read this far, Leonardo, sorry you had problems. We _all_
> have been there and most of us go there more often than we'd like to
> admit :) Stick with it and you'll likely learn more than you can even
> fathom right now. If not, then good luck to you.
>
>
> On Mar 7, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
> >
> > I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> > I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> > That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> > couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> > on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> > back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> > decided to give it another try.
> >
> > So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> > created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> > and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> > plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> > actually the same notebook from two years ago.
> >
> > I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> > password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> > a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> > installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> > system later.
> >
> > Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> > on the screen, followed by the question:
> >
> >  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> >
> > At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> > scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> > screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> > nothing works, so I press Enter.
> >
> > And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> > I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> > a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> > overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
> >
> > What sav

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[daniel holtzman]

Let's all step back a moment: Leonardo is neither the first nor will he
be the last person to be bitten by something in OpenBSD. I say we tell
him we are sorry for his troubles, giggle a little bit, give him a
hearty pat on the back, and shout,

  "Welcome to the elite community of OpenBSD users! We're not all
  geniuses, we don't have all the answers but we all sure as fsck like
  a quality product and the opportunity for deep learning, especially in
  a community of like-minded people."

I think it's safe to say that _everyone_ who uses OpenBSD is necessarily
curious by nature and understands the rigors of learning. We often
fiddle with things and frequently make really foolish mistakes--that's
how we learn. 

Leonardo will either "never, ever touch[ing] OpenBSD with a ten-foot
pole again", or he'll become a satisfied and dedicated user. That is
really up to him and his penchant for mastery and self-reliance. The
opportunities for these things are huge in OpenBSD because the project
sticks to its overriding mission, quality, in every aspect; including
documentation.

By side-effect or perhaps by design, the OpenBSD community weeds out
those people who are not seriously dedicated. It may not welcome the
naive and it may not hand-hold the inexperienced, but it certainly does
not prevent the naive and inexperienced from learning. Lurk a lot. Grow
a thicker skin. You can be sneered at and called all sorts of names. Do
you want to work at mastering fascinating skills by some of the best in
the industry or do you want a nice touchy-feely experience? Rarely, you
can have both, but mostly, in real life, we have to make choices.

When I first started using, and yes, "using"--like a drug (2.5 or 2.6),
I was lucky enough to have a steady supply of old machines (i386, sparc,
vax, ppc) and became install-happy. I'd love to show off how quickly I
could do an install over the net. I figure that I did at least 100
installs in my first 6 months; trying to get partitions/labels just
right; messing things up and starting over; making a lot of mistakes.
I've not found another OS, ever, that was so quick and easy to install.
OpenBSD gave me the ability to learn a lot about installation that I
wouldn't have otherwise had the patience to do. I learned a new way of
thinking: where to "try" things and where to "do" things.

So, if you've read this far, Leonardo, sorry you had problems. We _all_
have been there and most of us go there more often than we'd like to
admit :) Stick with it and you'll likely learn more than you can even
fathom right now. If not, then good luck to you.


On Mar 7, 2012, at 7:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
> 
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.
> 
> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.
> 
> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.
> 
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
> 
>  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> 
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.
> 
> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
> 
> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.
> 
> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I ca

report errors with ports apps

[Mihai Popescu]

Hello,

What is the proper way to report glitches or errors from applications
present in ports only ( not in base) ?
Is it ok to discuss those on ports@ ? I want to avoid doing this on
misc@ from now on.

Thank you.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Jay Huldeen]

On 03/07/2012 07:26, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

Hi,

I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.


A couple of years ago I decided to get back into computing and built a 
box.  I have run through many of the Linux distros and learned a lot by 
just installing a new OS every so often and trying stuff.  That sort of 
behavior is mostly encouraged in the Linux world.


One of the things I love about OpenBSD is that if I don't know what I am 
doing, I am expected to read and follow the documentation, and the 
documentation actually works.  I am treated like a responsible adult who 
is expected to read and follow instructions if I want to use this 
operating system.  This is good encouragement for me to learn something new.


I have installed OpenBSD several times in the last year, and have been 
able to get it up and running every single time.  How did a moron like 
me do that?  I read the manual while I was installing the system.  I 
literally printed it out and followed it, and it worked!  (Try that 
with, say, Gentoo.)


The defaults in the installer are fine.  I have installed OpenBSD on its 
own disk and also in a multiboot configuration and was able to do both 
by reading the manual, and with no formal computer science training 
beyond that.


I don't really need OpenBSD for what I do, but the OpenBSD developers 
who have worked hard for many years to make a professional-grade OS are 
willing to make it available to me for free, with excellent 
documentation so I can actually teach myself how to install it and use 
it.  And instead of spending an hour to RTFM and maybe going to mutt.org 
to figure out how to set up mail so I can send this from the OpenBSD 
installation I have sitting on a disk on this box, I'd rather spend that 
hour using easy-peasy PC-BSD to look at lolcats and read about the 
script kiddies who got busted by the FBI the other day and generally 
feel smug.


So thank you for inspiring me to reboot into OpenBSD and get to work 
learning something new on my day off.  Maybe someday I'll be more than a 
hobbyist.


Sorry, list, for the noise.

--
Jay Huldeen
j...@huldeen.com

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Benny Lofgren]

On 2012-03-07 17.23, Dennis den Brok wrote:
> On 2012-03-07, Raimo Niskanen  wrote:
>> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
>> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.
> As there seems to be much resistance to one more (redundant) question
> in the installer, I suggest to add a simple message to that part
> of the installer, as in
> 
> "(Choosing 'whole disk' will become effective immediately.)"
> 
> or even
> 
> "Use (W)hole disk (writes to disk immediately) or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]"


In my opinion, this is the single suggestion in this entire thread
that's actually worth implementing. It's an easy fix, doesn't change
the installer's handling one bit (although it consumes a few more of
the precious bytes) and it might actually prevent someone else with
attention deficit disorder to wreck their disk in the future.

And even if it doesn't, it should at least cool you down enough to opt
out of embarking on a rant about it...


Regards,
/Benny

-- 
internetlabbet.se / work:   +46 8 551 124 80  / "Words must
Benny Lofgren/  mobile: +46 70 718 11 90 /   be weighed,
/   fax:+46 8 551 124 89/not counted."
   /email:  benny -at- internetlabbet.se

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Sean Howard]

Somebody claiming to be Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> 
> I have to apologize to everyone on this list for the tone of that
> first message. I was angry and venting, and I apologize if it offended
> anyone. I understand that the installer works the way it does because
> that's what's useful to the OpenBSD community and it should not change
> just because some random guy flames about it.
> 
> I also agree with those who pointed out that doing experimental OS
> installs on a machine you care about is not a particularly smart thing
> to do.
> 
> That being said, I think Dave understands the problem very well. That
> is probably the most dangerous point in the installation. It's
> dangerous even for experienced users (anyone can get distracted and
> screw up), but much more so for those who come from a different
> background, and the reason for that is that it's unexpected. As
> someone else pointed out, most Linux installers nowadays will give you
> a "big fat warning" before they do anything irreversible to your disk,
> and the users get used to and rely on these warnings. It seems to be
> different with OpenBSD. Maybe the OpenBSD philosophy is just not for
> me.
> 

My first install I wiped out my Hard drive. My second install I munged 
everything up.

After that - I learned *a lot* more respect for my own choices. This error is 
the best error you can make. Keeps you respecting your system and your own 
ability to control it. And the mistakes you make.

Sure - it sucks. Definitely sucks. But as has been pointed out a couple of 
times - it can be fixed.

You want to learn OpenBSD - learn that you can screw yourself if you're not 
careful - and soon enough you'll have the basics down - simply because you'll 
realize that the FAQ and man -k are awesome.

> Regards,
> 
>  - Leonardo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Nick Holland]

On 03/07/2012 12:55 PM, David Vasek wrote:

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Amit Kulkarni wrote:

...

Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [edit]

while the OP did make a mistake, he could modify the default to be
edit the MBR. so he would be forced to pay attention while staring at
the partition table. i would be paying attention to the instructions.

stuart is right, there's a point where if you add confirmations, where
would you stop?


Not confirmations, but saner defaults. No default value here is another
option - it doesn't take from precious floppy size.

I never had a problem with the current installer, but I really do think
that is should not direct people to disasters. Yes, people should be
careful, but only one press of Enter is too close. Defaults should be sane.


Let me explain a little part of the OpenBSD dev cycle.  Every six 
months, developers do as many installs and upgrades of as many types on 
as many systems as we can.


We do this to make sure everything works properly.

The ability to hit "ENTER ENTER ENTER ENTER" through the install and 
have things load is WHAT THE DEVELOPERS WANT.  We like to be able to 
install and test quickly.  Heck, we like being able to install and USE 
quickly.  Using an OS should not be about the installation process.


Serious OpenBSD users have the vast majority of our systems "whole disk" 
configs.  Multi-booting is for non-committed users: dabblers, resume 
stuffers ("fluent [='I installed successfully!'] in 37 operating 
sytems!") and people who have need for another OS for some reason on a 
laptop.  Hey, I have THREE laptops that multi-boot, but that's about 10% 
of the OpenBSD machines I regularly use.  A few machines have 
maintenance partitions that need to be worked around.  But for the most 
part, serious users and developers want the default exactly as it is.


I think I am far closer to removing all info on multibooting systems 
from the FAQ except for a statement of "Multibooting OpenBSD is not 
supported" than you are likely to see any change to the "whole disk" 
installation default.


Fortunately, I'm not too close to doing that.  HOWEVER, if this bullshit 
thread and nonsense suggestions go much further, I'd not be surprised to 
see a note in my inbox saying "remove it.  now".  And I will.


Nick.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Leonardo Sabino dos Santos]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Dave Anderson  wrote:
> To be fair (which is a bit difficult given the tone of the original
> message) he has identified what may be the only place in the install
> process where a single wrong keystroke can do major damage.  Everyplace
> else I can think of there's at least an opportunity to abort the
> installation after making a mistake but before the damage is done.
>
> I've no great love for 'are you sure' questions, but they may be
> appropriate where they prevent a single easy-to-make mistake from
> causing serious damage.
>
>Dave

I have to apologize to everyone on this list for the tone of that
first message. I was angry and venting, and I apologize if it offended
anyone. I understand that the installer works the way it does because
that's what's useful to the OpenBSD community and it should not change
just because some random guy flames about it.

I also agree with those who pointed out that doing experimental OS
installs on a machine you care about is not a particularly smart thing
to do.

That being said, I think Dave understands the problem very well. That
is probably the most dangerous point in the installation. It's
dangerous even for experienced users (anyone can get distracted and
screw up), but much more so for those who come from a different
background, and the reason for that is that it's unexpected. As
someone else pointed out, most Linux installers nowadays will give you
a "big fat warning" before they do anything irreversible to your disk,
and the users get used to and rely on these warnings. It seems to be
different with OpenBSD. Maybe the OpenBSD philosophy is just not for
me.

Regards,

 - Leonardo

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Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Diana Eichert]

gawd no

it is bad enough I live in a f&%*kn' nanny state country, don't
turn my favorite OS into Linux.

when I need my hand held I'll ask my wife to hold mine.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Donald Allen]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:19 PM, David Vasek  wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:
>
>> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
>> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
>> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
>> one so easily..."
>>
>> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
>> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
>> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
>> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
>> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
>> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
>
> Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
> disasterous way. And this the case.

I don't think so. This "equipment" provided documentation that said
"Multibooting is having several operating systems on one computer, and
some means of selecting which OS is to boot. It is not a trivial task!
If you don't understand what you are doing, you may end up deleting
large amounts of data from your computer. New OpenBSD users are
strongly encouraged to start with a blank hard drive on a dedicated
machine, and then practice your desired configuration on a
non-production system before attempting a multiboot configuration on a
production machine." Then the installer said, at the moment of truth,
"Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]". I don't see how you can
possibly think the "equipment" encouraged this problem.

I had one other thought about this. I've been following the OpenBSD
mailing lists for some years now and I don't recall ever seeing
another discussion of someone else making a hole in their foot at this
point in an install. It's possible that I'm wrong (and I don't care to
take the time to search the mail archives), but if I'm not, then this
situation is an outlier. But on the other hand, I see frequent
comments about how quick and easy it is to install OpenBSD. I think
part of the reason for that is that the installation process has been
carefully streamlined, including using well-chosen (high probability)
defaults. Changing that to address a very improbable scenario might
well amount to penalizing many to benefit a very few.

/Don

>
> Regards,
> David

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[David Vasek]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Amit Kulkarni wrote:


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:19 AM, David Vasek  wrote:

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:


"While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily..."

I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.



Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
disasterous way. And this the case.

Regards,
David



what about this

Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [edit]

while the OP did make a mistake, he could modify the default to be
edit the MBR. so he would be forced to pay attention while staring at
the partition table. i would be paying attention to the instructions.

stuart is right, there's a point where if you add confirmations, where
would you stop?


Not confirmations, but saner defaults. No default value here is another 
option - it doesn't take from precious floppy size.


I never had a problem with the current installer, but I really do think 
that is should not direct people to disasters. Yes, people should be 
careful, but only one press of Enter is too close. Defaults should be 
sane.


Regards,
David

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Peter N. M. Hansteen]

"Dmitrij D. Czarkoff"  writes:

> "OpenBSD installer should be tuned so that hitting [Enter] all the way
> gets you to a bootable system without side effects"

My typical install is almost all hitting Enter (with a couple of obvious
exceptions9, and it ends with a bootable and very usable system. But
then I tend to want OpenBSD as the main or only system. 

Multiboot setups like the one the OP wanted requires a bit of paying
attention and is risky in general.

- P

-- 
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Daniel Bolgheroni]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 02:49:01PM +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
> install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
> partition table by default without confirmation.

An installation of an unknown OS, with no backups, answering questions
without reading it, complaining on the mailing list...

Smart move, buddy.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Amit Kulkarni]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:19 AM, David Vasek  wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:
>
>> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
>> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
>> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
>> one so easily..."
>>
>> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
>> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
>> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
>> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
>> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
>> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
>
> Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a
> disasterous way. And this the case.
>
> Regards,
> David
>

what about this

Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [edit]

while the OP did make a mistake, he could modify the default to be
edit the MBR. so he would be forced to pay attention while staring at
the partition table. i would be paying attention to the instructions.

stuart is right, there's a point where if you add confirmations, where
would you stop?

and for some daemons, there is no open source alternative to OpenBSD,
so learn it.

good luck

Re: installation to (W)hole disk - saner default

[James Shupe]

> I'm not sure about this part, actually. I won't make statements about
> the OpenBSD community as whole, but in my experience using the whole
> disk is the most typical action.
> 

Every one of the installs I do uses the whole disk. The installer is
best left alone because it fits the typical use case -- especially for
those of us with mass deployments.

Take your one-off, single user PC installs and RTFM.

-- 
James Shupe

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Mihai Popescu]

David Vasek wrote:
>Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a 
>disasterous way. And this the case.

This is not the case, don't be ridiculous. There is not a disaster if
you wipe out your hardisk by mistake.
I think you got it wrong here. The developer can put anything he
consider there. It is a free product, so no obligations.
Usually, the DEFAULT option should be the one that is more often
encountered. That is, an OpenBSD true user will use its computer with
OpenBSD ONLY on the hardisk.
 The default option for timezone is Canada, but this is not
where the majority of users live. But I found out how to trick this, I
start the ntpd on install and my timezone is recognized rightaway. At
least I think it is ntpd.

I respect people developing and sending patches, but yours was funny.
Did you mean it ?

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[David Vasek]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Donald Allen wrote:


"While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily..."

I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.


Except that the equipment shoudn't direct people to behave in such a 
disasterous way. And this the case.


Regards,
David

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Richard Thornton]

Multi boot systems are definitely more risky to assemble;  I prefer use of
VM's instead.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Donald Allen wrote:

> "While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> one so easily..."
>
> I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
> the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
> approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
> happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
> an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
> survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.
>
> Had he prepared properly, backing up the system first and reading the
> documentation, he might not have made the error, due to the clear
> warnings in the docs,  and if he had, recovery would have been easy
> from the backup.
>
> Putting additional hand-holding in the installer (what part of "Use
> whole disk" was difficult to understand?) can only add to a false
> sense of safety. I think it makes a lot more sense that  limited
> development resources be devoted to real issues, as opposed to
> protecting people from their own carelessness.
>
> /Don Allen

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Donald Allen]

"While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily..."

I disagree. I think the installer is fine the way it is and it was not
the problem here. The problem was the original poster's too-cavalier
approach to something that is well-known to be dangerous. What
happened here is somewhat analogous to texting while driving or flying
an airplane drunk and, when disaster occurs, being upset (assuming
survival) that the equipment didn't prevent it.

Had he prepared properly, backing up the system first and reading the
documentation, he might not have made the error, due to the clear
warnings in the docs,  and if he had, recovery would have been easy
from the backup.

Putting additional hand-holding in the installer (what part of "Use
whole disk" was difficult to understand?) can only add to a false
sense of safety. I think it makes a lot more sense that  limited
development resources be devoted to real issues, as opposed to
protecting people from their own carelessness.

/Don Allen

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Alan Corey]

Partitioning the disk is not irreversible.  Use the Symantek/Norton 
utilities and it will make guesses and try to find Windows partitions. 
Once the newfs (formatting) starts, that's fairly irreversible.


  Alan

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Dave Anderson wrote:


On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote:


On 2012-03-07, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos  wrote:

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 
wrote:

On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
on the screen, followed by the question:

  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
nothing works, so I press Enter.


You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
occupied by single A6 partition.

So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?


I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.


The thing is, then you'll want another after you edit disklabel,
and another before running newfs (which is the first part which is
likely to be really tough to recover from). And then when the OS
is booted maybe you'll want rm to ask for confirmation, etc.


To be fair (which is a bit difficult given the tone of the original
message) he has identified what may be the only place in the install
process where a single wrong keystroke can do major damage.  Everyplace
else I can think of there's at least an opportunity to abort the
installation after making a mistake but before the damage is done.

I've no great love for 'are you sure' questions, but they may be
appropriate where they prevent a single easy-to-make mistake from
causing serious damage.

Dave

--
Dave Anderson

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Kevin Chadwick]

> > B Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

You should certainly try Ctrl-C, Esc, Ctrl-alt-del, power switch and
never enter in order to not do something.

Taking the situation of the cat jumping on the keyboard and you may
have an argument except you do have to hit [I] for install first and
should be able to guard the keyboard from the cat at this important
time. If it was changed and you started using OpenBSD then it would
start to annoy you too on your tenth install. It's very cool being able
to install OpenBSD in like 5 minutes and without any wrinkles on your
forehead at any time and more importantly not have to install a new
kernel every two weeks, in fact for years for some applications of
OpenBSD ;-).

Takes a little more time to keep firefox upto date on a single system
than Linux though.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Aaron]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Dennis den Brok  wrote:
> On 2012-03-07, Raimo Niskanen  wrote:
>> I just want to defend the OP a wee bit.
>>
>> Most installers I have encountered; Linux, FreeBSD, ... have a
>> very pronounced confirmation question just before making irreversible
>> changes to the target disk. Especially the ones that start by
>> collecting configuration information and then do the installation
>> in one pass without user interaction (SuSE comes to mind),
>> which the OpenBSD installer nowdays does more than in the past...
>>
>> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
>> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.
>
> As there seems to be much resistance to one more (redundant) question
> in the installer, I suggest to add a simple message to that part
> of the installer, as in
>
> "(Choosing 'whole disk' will become effective immediately.)"
>
> or even
>
> "Use (W)hole disk (writes to disk immediately) or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]"
>
> While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
> at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
> tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
> one so easily...
>
> --
> Dennis den Brok
>

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/28213 <-- Yay Patch!

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Renzo Fabriek]

On Wednesday 07 March 2012 15:27:51 Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Russell Garrison
>  wrote:
> > I am absolutely intrigued by this story despite my better judgement.
> > You were able to cook your own full OpenBSD installer on a USB stick
> > with GRUB instead of downloading an ISO or using PXE, but you failed
> > disk setup in the installer? It really would be interesting to see if
> > you can read just http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html , particularly
> > 4.5.3 and then come back to us with anything other than a mea culpa.
> 
> I admit to pressing Enter at some of the questions without reading
> carefully. It simply never crossed my mind that the default action for
> the installer is to erase the whole disk without chance for review. I
> still think that's a disaster waiting to happen.
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Christer Solskogen
>  wrote:
> > What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
> > REALLY sure?"?
> 
> Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
> Just saying.
>

When a OpenBSD partition is present than that is the default choise. Better? :)

But i have to agree with you. It is a dangerous point.
I think a patch for a blank default choise if no OpenBSD partition is present 
would make more chance to be accepted than a "are you sure" patch.
But... it will add an extra keystroke (W/E + enter) to save the newbees. I 
suspect that will be the main argument against this. But then again it would 
only be with fresh disks. (MBR without an OBSD part is also fresh in this case)

Another thing is that the instal script is a part of the install files... 
(duhh) Those files still has to fit on a floppy disk. So adding to much would 
make it harder to put them together.
As others said before, OpenBSD is not about handholding although they do a 
pretty good job already. You will discover that once you start using OBSD,

And if I may blabbermouth a bit more. Representing the info when choosing whole 
disk is almost useless. It is done correctly. If it is not done correctly, then 
you start again and find out what is wrong or different in your case. There is 
no harm done cause you wanted  to use the whole disk anyway. The only reason in 
this case is to save someone from a wrong keystoke which could be solved by 
giving no default when no OBSD partition is available. But that is for the  
team to decide.
In case you edit the MBR by hand, representing your changes is the same as 
reading and chekking twice before you save and quit fdisk.

gr
Renzo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dennis den Brok]

On 2012-03-07, Raimo Niskanen  wrote:
> I just want to defend the OP a wee bit.
>
> Most installers I have encountered; Linux, FreeBSD, ... have a
> very pronounced confirmation question just before making irreversible
> changes to the target disk. Especially the ones that start by
> collecting configuration information and then do the installation
> in one pass without user interaction (SuSE comes to mind),
> which the OpenBSD installer nowdays does more than in the past...
>
> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.

As there seems to be much resistance to one more (redundant) question
in the installer, I suggest to add a simple message to that part
of the installer, as in

"(Choosing 'whole disk' will become effective immediately.)"

or even

"Use (W)hole disk (writes to disk immediately) or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]"

While the FAQ is indeed clear, the installer's simplicity appears
at that point a little deceptive, in that one (I know I was) is
tempted to think that such a user-friendly installer would not harm
one so easily...

--
Dennis den Brok

X mouse acceleration?

[Alan Corey]

I'm trying to speed up my mouse.  If I do xset m 10 4 or even xset m 100 
4, I can see the change with xset q, but the mouse acts the same.  It 
works under Linux (multiboot) but not here.


I'm using OpenBSD 5.0 with a vanilla X installed from xbase50.tgz, 
xetc50.tgz, xfont50.tgz, xserv50.tgz, share50.tgz as part of the main 
installation.  If I boot into Debian and use fvwm, xset m works with the 
same hardware.  I'm using 1920x1080 resolution and I have to pick up my 
mouse and move it 4 or 5 times to get across the screen.


Thanks, Alan

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dave Anderson]

On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote:

>On 2012-03-07, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos  wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
 Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
 on the screen, followed by the question:

   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

 At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
 scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
 screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
 nothing works, so I press Enter.
>>>
>>> You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
>>> you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
>>> occupied by single A6 partition.
>>>
>>> So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?
>>
>> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
>> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
>> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
>> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.
>
>The thing is, then you'll want another after you edit disklabel,
>and another before running newfs (which is the first part which is
>likely to be really tough to recover from). And then when the OS
>is booted maybe you'll want rm to ask for confirmation, etc.

To be fair (which is a bit difficult given the tone of the original
message) he has identified what may be the only place in the install
process where a single wrong keystroke can do major damage.  Everyplace
else I can think of there's at least an opportunity to abort the
installation after making a mistake but before the damage is done.

I've no great love for 'are you sure' questions, but they may be
appropriate where they prevent a single easy-to-make mistake from
causing serious damage.

Dave

-- 
Dave Anderson

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dmitrij D. Czarkoff]

On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 14:49 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.
> 
> Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
> install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
> partition table by default without confirmation.

That was a confirmation. And I fail to get an idea of the statement
about unexpectedness of OS installer overwriting the MBR. When you
install operating systems you should generally expect to deal with
partitioning, which should result in overwriting MBR in most cases
(unless you specifically made some changes to MBR before invoking
installer, but in this case you have to pay even more attention to the
installer as you want to make sure that it accepted your layout or at
least found the place you wanted the OS to land onto).

That's not to mention the fact that it is generally wise to back up at
least MBR when you install some OS for the first time, as you should
generally expect that some problem could arise from lack of familiarity
with OS  on your account.

Overall, your complaint boils down to the statement:

"OpenBSD installer should be tuned so that hitting [Enter] all the way
gets you to a bootable system without side effects"

which is quite contrary to the OpenBSD's user interaction practices, as
long as this system is specifically targeted at users with the opposite
approach to using PC.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Nick Holland]

On 03/07/2012 07:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

Hi,

I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.

I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
decided to give it another try.

So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
actually the same notebook from two years ago.


i.e., you rolled your own install process on your first install.


I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
system later.


you did your first test install on a multi-boot machine.  again, quite 
contrary to the recommendations.




Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
on the screen, followed by the question:

   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
nothing works,


yes, scrollback is something that was sacrificed on the installer to 
keep it able to fit on a floppy (contrary to another contribution to 
this thread).  Unfortunate, annoying, and unfortunately, I got no better 
ideas.



so I press Enter.


oops.



And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.


if you chose "Whole disk", yes...because next step is sub-partitioning, 
which can't be done until the last step is completed.



What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.


funny thing here.  IF you understood OpenBSD...the OpenBSD tools to fix 
this would have been MUCH easier than the Linux tool of the week.



Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
idea.


I'm sorry, I've worked with many many different OSs over decades. I can 
think of no OS installer that hitting "Enter" at the wrong time with the 
wrong set of conditions can't end up blowing away large amounts of work.


There's a reason I tell you multibooting is not a trivial task and that 
new users are encouraged to use a dedicated computer for their first 
install, and to PRACTICE a multi-boot install on non-production hw 
before doing it on their production machine with existing data.  You 
have proved the documentation correct.



I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.


I would say, based on your critera, yes, you and OpenBSD aren't a good 
fit.  That's ok.


Personally, I've found the OSs I have worked with (which include several 
BSDs, every version of Windows and DOS, and quite a few Linux distros, 
among others) all give you opportunities to blow away data during the 
install process.  And later.  If you really want something that double 
and triple checks every command you give it and everything you ask it to 
do...I'd suggest a Mac.  But don't start me on the old Macintosh, "this 
disk needs minor repairs, want me to fix it?"  [click yes]  "Formatting 
disk"  um.  that wasn't minor.


The first machine I installed OpenBSD on was a very old Compaq EISA 
machine, with a dedicated maintenance partition.  It got blown away 
three times before I got the math right on the partition tables...and I 
can assure you, the repair process was quite painful and time consuming 
(involving at least three floppy disks, as I recall).  Result: I know 
disk layout REALLY well now, and I LOVE the simple, fast, ea

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Donald Allen]

"Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
barely believe it. "

Doing an installation on a machine that you obviously care about, with
two existing OS installs at risk, in the casual manner you apparently
did also defies belief. *Any* install can result in disaster if not
done with proper respect for the process and no UI tweaks in the
installer will save someone who doesn't read carefully and prepare
carefully. Did you do a full backup before starting this exercise? Did
you read the FAQs on installation and multi-booting? The latter warns
you, in no uncertain terms, that what happened to you can happen to
you if you aren't careful.

/Don Allen

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Otto Moerbeek]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 03:57:10PM +0100, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 15:27 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> > Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> > your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> > question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
> 
> Sorry, but you wrote that you tried to scroll your screen before hitting
> [Enter]. Do you really want to say you didn't read the text?

AFAIK, the very minmal install kernel does not support VT scrolling.

-Otto

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dmitrij D. Czarkoff]

On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 15:27 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
> your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
> question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.

Sorry, but you wrote that you tried to scroll your screen before hitting
[Enter]. Do you really want to say you didn't read the text?

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2012-03-07, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
>>> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
>>> on the screen, followed by the question:
>>>
>>>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>>>
>>> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
>>> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
>>> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
>>> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>>
>> <...>
>>
>> You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
>> you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
>> occupied by single A6 partition.
>>
>> So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?
>
> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
> opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.

The thing is, then you'll want another after you edit disklabel,
and another before running newfs (which is the first part which is
likely to be really tough to recover from). And then when the OS
is booted maybe you'll want rm to ask for confirmation, etc.

In my experience people used to having to answer lots of "are you
really sure" options just keep hitting enter without thinking.
This is not a useful mindset to have on a Unix system.
You can think of this as encouraging good habits from the start :)
Sure there will be some "oh fsck did I really just do that"
moments without the warnings, but these will happen with warnings
too - there are all sorts of creative ways you can break things
without triggering a warning, often when there is significantly
more data on the system.

> Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
> install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
> partition table by default without confirmation.

Just looking at the installer prompts is not really enough for a
new user of OpenBSD, it is really expected that people will have to
take note of the documentation. There's a clear warning in exactly
the place that we'd expect somebody wanting to multiboot to look..
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Tomas Bodzar]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
>
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.
>
> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.
>
> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.
>
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
>
> B Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

So you work with GRUB for years, have Windows and Linux on that disk
already and still don't know what MBR is for and what means 'Whole
disk'?

>
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>
> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
>
> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.

Any disk tool can "save" you after your own fault. It doesn't need to
be Ubuntu-like

>
> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
> what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
> is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
> unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.

Ubuntu does the same, but just in GUI. And there was question which
needed your confirmation in OpenBSD CLI ;-)
BTW you obviously skipped
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#InstDisks (world is not just
Linux) and probably this one as well
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting

>
> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.
>
> Regards,
>
> B - Leonardo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[James Shupe]

> So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
> is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.

I didn't know that the devs were in the business of holding hands.

OpenBSD has the best installer of any OS, hands down. It's tiny,
scriptable, to the point, and does exactly what you tell it to. The OS
is by the devs, for the devs, and if you're fortunate enough to be able
to use it, good for you. But don't complain about user friendliness
being at the bottom of their list.

-- 
James Shupe

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Todd]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
>
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.
>
> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.
>
> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.
>
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
>
>  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

For the sake of the archive:
I have performed similar installations where multibooting OpenBSD with
one or more other operating systems already installed.  The safest way
seems to be to change the partition type of the partition that you
intend to install OpenBSD on to a6 (using fdisk in linux)prior to
starting the OpenBSD installer.  Then when you get to this step in the
installer the default is to only use the a6 partition.


An example of what the disk should look like prior to starting the
installation from pub/OpenBSD/5.0/i386/INSTALL.linux
Device BootStart  End   Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hda1 1  211   850720+   6  DOS 16-bit >=32M
/dev/hda2   212  273   249984   83  Linux native
/dev/hda3   274  992  2899008   a6  OpenBSD


> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>
> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
>
> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.
>
> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
> what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
> is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
> unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.
>
> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.
>
> Regards,
>
>  - Leonardo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Anonymous Remailer (austria)]

> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.

Not very smart trying to install another OS on a disk that has anything else
you want on it. I think you took a silly risk. Did you see the part where it
says you're supposed to have a good backup?

> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.

Big mistake, as you found out later.

> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.

Yeah, BSD spares us the endless hair pulling OK "confirmation" dialogs that
come standard with Windows and BSD users appreciate that. No, we demand it.

> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.

It's pretty offensive when software does what you tell it, is that what you
are saying?

> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.

Great. Do that a few more times and you'll have the know-how to multiboot a
new OS. BTW many Linux distros will do the same thing to you. No intelligent
person adds a new OS to an existing disk with important stuff on it unless
he knows what he is doing.

For you, VirtualBox or VMWare would have made alot of sense. It still would
except from your whining I don't really think you're cut out for
OpenBSD. Ubuntu would be good for you, probably.

> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it.

Try installing another copy of Windows on the same disk and let us know how
you make out. Even better, try OS/2. It will nail every disk you have.
Actually so will most Windows, they write bootloaders on every disk they
find, without asking you and with no confirmation dialogs.

> This is not about being an expert user or knowing what you want to do,
> because I knew exactly what I wanted to do.

Maybe, but you had no idea *how* to do it. Critical difference there buddy.

> This is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just
> too unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.

Well honestly the BSD installers are mostly old and cranky but we know how
they work pretty well by now and they very seldom do anything but what you
tell them. You're coming from Windows and hand-holding "OS" and you got a
taste of a serious OS. You can't really blame the installer for believing
you meant what you typed.
> 
> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

Have a nice day luser! I didn't even have to join the list to say that.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Leonardo Sabino dos Santos]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Russell Garrison
 wrote:
> I am absolutely intrigued by this story despite my better judgement.
> You were able to cook your own full OpenBSD installer on a USB stick
> with GRUB instead of downloading an ISO or using PXE, but you failed
> disk setup in the installer? It really would be interesting to see if
> you can read just http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html , particularly
> 4.5.3 and then come back to us with anything other than a mea culpa.

I admit to pressing Enter at some of the questions without reading
carefully. It simply never crossed my mind that the default action for
the installer is to erase the whole disk without chance for review. I
still think that's a disaster waiting to happen.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Christer Solskogen
 wrote:
> What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
> REALLY sure?"?

Then again, partitioning your disk is a bit more serious than "What's
your hostname?" or "What time zone are you in?". Maybe that one
question deserves an extra confirmation, or a less dangerous default.
Just saying.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Raimo Niskanen]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 03:04:33PM +0100, Christer Solskogen wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
>  wrote:
> > I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
> > seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
> > like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?",
> 
> What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
> REALLY sure?"?
> It reminds me of the installer of WindowMaker (I belive, I might be
> mistaken) who did that. Asked you multiple times if you where sure
> that you have done everything correctly. And the last question was
> "Are you lying?" :-)

That's a nice one. But there is a point in that, it forces the user to
alternate from pressing "y" to pressing "n", which increases the
possibility for the reply being thought through.

I just want to defend the OP a wee bit.

Most installers I have encountered; Linux, FreeBSD, ... have a
very pronounced confirmation question just before making irreversible
changes to the target disk. Especially the ones that start by
collecting configuration information and then do the installation
in one pass without user interaction (SuSE comes to mind),
which the OpenBSD installer nowdays does more than in the past...

So I think a pronounced confirmation question before touching the disk
is not a bad thing. It is what many would expect.

> 
> 
> -- 
> chs,

-- 

/ Raimo Niskanen, Erlang/OTP, Ericsson AB

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Warriner, Benjamin]

And you didn't read the FAQ because?
The OpenBSD Installation Guide is easily found at
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html
People wrote this documentation so other people would actually read it and
not have your unfortunate experience.
Your inability or unwillingness to do your homework before starting on
this task ultimately means you are solely responsible for what happened.

-Ben Warriner

On 3/7/12 6:31 AM, "Leonardo Sabino dos Santos"
 wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
>
>I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
>I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
>That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
>couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
>on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
>back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
>decided to give it another try.
>
>So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
>created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
>and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
>plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
>actually the same notebook from two years ago.
>
>I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
>password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
>a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
>installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
>system later.
>
>Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
>on the screen, followed by the question:
>
>  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>
>At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
>scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
>screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
>nothing works, so I press Enter.
>
>And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
>I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
>a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
>overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
>
>What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
>gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
>gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
>managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.
>
>Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
>disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
>confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
>barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
>what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
>is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
>unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
>idea.
>
>I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
>like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.
>
>Regards,
>
> - Leonardo

source ./vars and pkitool

[pavel pocheptsov]

Hello misc, I know that it is terrible,
and many answers on this questions in past,
but construction with dot and space before ./vars
is work to make ./clean-all and ./build-dh.
and something went wrong with ./pkitool

# uname -a
OpenBSD openbsd 5.0 GENERIC.MP#59 i386
# pwd
/etc/openvpn/easy-rsa
# . ./vars
NOTE: If you run ./clean-all, I will be doing a rm -rf on 
/etc/openvpn/easy-rsa/keys
# ./clean-all
# ./build-dh
Generating DH parameters, 1024 bit long safe prime, generator 2
This is going to take a long time
+..++...
..
...+...++...+..+...
...+..+..++*++*++*
# ./pkitool --initca
Using CA Common Name: Ektos CA
B  Please edit the vars script to reflect your configuration,
B  then source it with "source ./vars".
B  Next, to start with a fresh PKI configuration and to delete any
B  previous certificates and keys, run "./clean-all".
B  Finally, you can run this tool (pkitool) to build certificates/keys.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Zak Elep]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Zak Elep 
> wrote:
>>
>> Too bad, a thorough reading of FAQ Chapter 4[0] could have saved you a
>> LOT of trouble.
>>
>> [0]:   http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html
>
> I had actually read chapter 4 of the FAQ before. That's part of the
> point: reading won't save you from a wrong keystroke.

Nope, _paying attention where due_ is.

If you were unsure, you could have just Ctrl-C and it will drop you
back to a root shell, then you could either invoke reboot to get out,
or run the "install" script to try again, once you are sure and
prepared.

--
Zak B. Elep || orangeandbronze.com
1486 7957 454D E529 E4F1  F75E 5787 B1FD FA53 851D

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Christer Solskogen]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
> seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
> like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?",

What if you mistyped there as well? Do you want a "Are you REALLY
REALLY sure?"?
It reminds me of the installer of WindowMaker (I belive, I might be
mistaken) who did that. Asked you multiple times if you where sure
that you have done everything correctly. And the last question was
"Are you lying?" :-)


-- 
chs,

pfsync changes in current?

[Kapetanakis Giannis]

Hi,

I'm running a setup of Active/backup firewalls with carp/pfsync 
successfully for the last year.


Today I've upgraded the primary firewall to the latest snapshot (12 Feb),
and as soon as the firewall booted it became MASTER before pfsync bulk 
transfer completed.


Mar  7 15:42:04 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group carp by 1 to 
133 (pfsync bulk start)
Mar  7 15:42:04 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group pfsync by 1 to 
1 (pfsync bulk start)
Mar  7 15:42:04 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group carp by -1 to 
128 (pfsyncdev)
Mar  7 15:42:04 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group pfsync by -1 
to 0 (pfsyncdev)


At this point carp group is also automatically demoted to 0-zero and it 
takes over as MASTER.

I manually did ifconfig -g carp carpdemote to force it to SLAVE
in order for pfsync bulk transfer to complete and don't loose active 
connections.


Mar  7 15:46:11 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group carp by -1 to 
0 (pfsync bulk done)
Mar  7 15:46:11 echidna /bsd: carp: pfsync0 demoted group pfsync by -1 
to 0 (pfsync bulk done)


Secondary firewall is running 5.0 GENERIC#96 i386 from 21 Nov 2011.
Can it be a mis-communication between the 2 firewalls due different 
versions?


regards,

Giannis

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Peter Hessler]

On 2012 Mar 07 (Wed) at 13:26:41 +0100 (+0100), Leonardo Sabino dos Santos 
wrote:
...
:I'm not actually paying
:a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
:installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
:system later.
:

You should always pay attention to an *installation* program.
Especially one that installs an *OS*, which is likely to erase your
drive.


:Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
:on the screen, followed by the question:
:
:  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
:
:At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
:scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
:screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
:nothing works, so I press Enter.
:
:And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.


The confirmation was the part that you quoted.  Sorry, but you *do* need
to read what the installation program tells you.  That is the entire
point of having instructions on the screen.


-- 
I really hate this damned machine
I wish that they would sell it.
It never does quite what I want
But only what I tell it.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Leonardo Sabino dos Santos]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Dmitrij D. Czarkoff 
wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
>> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
>> on the screen, followed by the question:
>>
>>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
>>
>> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
>> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
>> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
>> nothing works, so I press Enter.
>
> <...>
>
> You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
> you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
> occupied by single A6 partition.
>
> So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?

I pressed Enter by mistake there (and realized my mistake a couple of
seconds too late). The kind of confirmation I expected is something
like: "This will erase all partitions, are you sure (y/n)?", or an
opportunity to review the settings before committing to the install.

Sorry about the tone earlier, but I'm still incredulous that the
install program would do something as serious as overwriting the
partition table by default without confirmation.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Zak Elep 
wrote:
>
> Too bad, a thorough reading of FAQ Chapter 4[0] could have saved you a
> LOT of trouble.
>
> [0]:   http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html

I had actually read chapter 4 of the FAQ before. That's part of the
point: reading won't save you from a wrong keystroke.

 - Leonardo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Russell Garrison]

I am absolutely intrigued by this story despite my better judgement.
You were able to cook your own full OpenBSD installer on a USB stick
with GRUB instead of downloading an ISO or using PXE, but you failed
disk setup in the installer? It really would be interesting to see if
you can read just http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html , particularly
4.5.3 and then come back to us with anything other than a mea culpa.

There are always going to be stumbling points in computing, but the
question is do we learn from them or just reject them and act like
they are not the great opportunities for growth that they are.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant) (even longer)

[Mo Libden]

07 PQ Leonardo Sabino dos Santos 
:
> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.

you can go paying a little attention when you do it for 101st time.
when you're doing installation of a new OS for the first time,
having you're sane, you're expected to pay attention.

> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
> 
>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> 
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.

well, you know what? it is exactly the same key combination as it is in
linux: Shift-PgUp / Shift-PgDn. even if it wasn't, you can interrupt the
installation any time by pressing obvious ^C and start again, paying
attention at the parts you missed earlier.

> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.

man, you're miserable! I remember when I installed OpenBSD 2.1
(if memory serves), in 1996 off twenty-something floppy disks.

at that time README used to suggest having paper/pencil/calculator
handy. at that time you needed to do calculations and know exactly
what are those sectors, cylinders, heads. it was even better if you had
knowledge about hard disk partitioning and all that stuff.

i knew that stuff, i printed and carefully read README.i386 few times,
i had all those things handy and yet on my first install I f*cked up my
disk having my Windows for workgroups 3.11 disk suffer lost directories
and files, along with broken file content. i never complained about it,
i did my homework and did proper installation.

these days you're relieved of these things. installation procedure is
condensed, fdisk is much better, disklabel editing goes without vi,
you're asked just few question, but the main thing about OpenBSD
remains unchanged: YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

if you don't, you're probably best off without going there. But being
asked if you want to use the whole disk for OpenBSD, confirming
that and expecting it not to overwrite the partition table?

what kind of logic is that?

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[fish . kungfu]

You just cut yourself in the shark tank.  Good luck.


07.03.12, 07:31, "Leonardo Sabino dos Santos" :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.
> 
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.
> 
> So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
> created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
> and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
> plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
> actually the same notebook from two years ago.
> 
> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.
> 
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
> 
>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> 
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.
> 
> And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
> I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
> a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
> overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.
> 
> What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
> gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
> gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
> managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.
> 
> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
> what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
> is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
> unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.
> 
> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  - Leonardo

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Mihai Popescu]

> Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

> I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.

It seems that you need to get some experience and then talk about it.
You have none yet in the area you promote, so why should I be
interested about nothing ?

> [ put here the "experience" ]

To talk about what was happened, there are too many years and
generation of OSes' installers with Next> Next> Next>  > Finish.
There are also too many boxes with OK and Cancel. There is nothing
wrong with them, but the user was not reading and thinking, just was
assuming.

> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel like 
> never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

Take a moment of your time and think about that. First, the members of
the list don't care about that. Serioussly, they don't care. Second,
you may get a job in the future, a good one, which implies using
OpenBSD on a computer or anything else. Are you saying you will drop
it? Realy?

I think you are not ready for OpenBSD, yet. You need to get more
failures on applications, more dissapointments from other "common"
Operating Systems. You need to spent more days looking on a "modern
operating system" computer and thinking about what else could be
possibly wrong, trying to figure out what you didn't try yet. And in
the end, but not the last, you need to feel how it is when your 3 or 4
days work resumes to a single message box with no title and no message
plus the shutdown of the application itself. Maybe you will get a
glimpse on that moment.

So, ask yourself "Do I need to run OpenBSD? If the answer is YES, then ask WHY?"

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Zak Elep]

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 8:26 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos
 wrote:
> I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
> I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
> That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
> couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
> on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
> back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
> decided to give it another try.

Glad you gave it another shot,...

> I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
> password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
> a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
> installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
> system later.

...but by not paying attention to installation details,...

> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
> what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
> is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
> unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
> idea.

...yet saying you know exactly what you want to do: sorry, but you're
doing it wrong.

Those first few installation questions are there because you are
expected to be sure of what, where, and how to do the install, thus to
ignore on the assumption that you'll get back to them later is just
showing how unsure and unprepared you are.

> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

Too bad, a thorough reading of FAQ Chapter 4[0] could have saved you a
LOT of trouble.

[0]:   http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html

--
Zak B. Elep || orangeandbronze.com
1486 7957 454D E529 E4F1  F75E 5787 B1FD FA53 851D

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Peter N. M. Hansteen]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 01:26:41PM +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
> 
>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> 
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.

the OpenBSD installer looks somewhat simplistick, but it's quite consistent
in its chosen conventions, such as displaying the default action in square 
brackets and pressing Enter to accept the entered or displayed value.

or the TL;DR version: you said you wanted to use the whole disk for OpenBSD,
so of course it took you seriously.

> I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
> like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

The best advice you'll ever get about this paricular situation is to read the 
FAQ
(http://www.openbsd.org/faq/), with particular attention to part 4 (the 
installation 
part) and perhaps http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting for the 
various 
multiboot options. 

- Peter
-- 
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Rares Aioanei]

On 03/07/2012 02:26 PM, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:

[rant...]



Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
idea.

I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

Regards,

  - Leonardo

You are free to do so, no one's stopping you.


--
Rares Aioanei

Re: My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Dmitrij D. Czarkoff]

On Wed, 2012-03-07 at 13:26 +0100, Leonardo Sabino dos Santos wrote:
> Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
> on the screen, followed by the question:
> 
>   Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]
> 
> At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
> scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
> screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
> nothing works, so I press Enter.

<...>

> Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
> disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
> confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
> barely believe it.

You were asked whether you want to edit MBR or use the whole disk, and
you chose using the whole disk. This resulted in your disk being
occupied by single A6 partition.

So, what went wrong? What kind of confirmation did you want?

My OpenBSD 5.0 installation experience (long rant)

[Leonardo Sabino dos Santos]

Hi,

I want to tell you about my experience with OpenBSD.

I'm a Linux user, but have always wanted to try OpenBSD. The last time
I'd tried installing it was version 4.6 and I didn't get very far.
That version wouldn't install on my notebook at all. The kernel
couldn't recognise my hard drive because of some AHCI incompatibility
on this notebook that I didn't have the expertise to solve, so I went
back to Linux for the time. Two years later, we're on version 5.0, I
decided to give it another try.

So I downloaded all the package files, wrote them to a USB stick,
created a bootable image with GRUB, booted into the OpenBSD installer
and off we go. Now, this computer already had Windows 7 and Linux,
plus about 16 GB of unpartitioned space where OpenBSD is going. It's
actually the same notebook from two years ago.

I start answering the installer's questions. Keyboard layout. Root
password. Configuration of network interfaces. I'm not actually paying
a whole lot of attention to the questions as this is just a test
installation and I figure I can always explore and configure the
system later.

Next, the disk stuff comes up. A lot of partition information appears
on the screen, followed by the question:

  Use (W)hole disk or (E)dit the MBR? [whole]

At this point I'm actually trying to remember if there's a way to
scroll back the console, because some information has scrolled of the
screen. I try PageUp, PageDown, Ctrl-UpArrow, Ctrl-DownArrow, but
nothing works, so I press Enter.

And my partition table is gone. Poof! Instantly, with no confirmation.
I immediately realized what had happened and rebooted. Too late. I got
a "No OS" message. It seems that the OpenBSD installer actually
overwrites the partition table the instant you press Enter.

What saved me was an Ubuntu installation CD and the wonderful tool
gpart (http://www.brzitwa.de/mb/gpart/). With a bit of tinkering in
gpart and some very careful work with the Linux version of fdisk, I
managed to reconstruct the partition table and saved my system.

Distributing an installation program that can wipe out the user's hard
disk instantly on a single wrong keystroke, without so much as a
confirmation prompt is so shortsighted and irresponsible that I can
barely believe it. This is not about being an expert user or knowing
what you want to do, because I knew exactly what I wanted to do. This
is about incredibly stupid user interface design. Sorry, it's just too
unbelievable that someone would think that this is actually a good
idea.

I joined this mailing list just to tell you this: Right now, I feel
like never, ever touching OpenBSD with a ten-foot pole again.

Regards,

 - Leonardo

Re: xxxterm & http download weirdness

[Remco]

Mihai Popescu wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I was starting a download of ports from
> http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/openbsd/snapshots/ports.tar.gz to compare
> it with an old archive from a mirror. As you can see, the file size is
> listed as 20.7M, but what I got is a 220M file which is   corrupted as
> reported by tar. The fact is that artfiles.org mirror works fine. If I
> watch the bigger file inside download window, it shows 20.7M but after
> that keeps incrementing till ~ 220M.
> 
> Is anyone experiencing this ?
> 

Haven't tried this myself but I suspect that your HTTP client (xxxterm)
tries to decompress the file in transit.

AFAICT the HTTP protocol supports compression on the wire.
e.g.:
-> you request index.html on a server
-> the server compresses the file using gzip
-> the compressed file is sent to your browser
-> your browser decompresses the gzipped content
   and renders the resulting HTML so you can view it

I suspect the ports.tar.gz is seen as gzipped HTTP content and your browser
tries to decompress it before doing something with it.

If this is the case, I don't know how to avoid this. Maybe xxxterm has an
option to avoid decompressing content that was already compressed before it
was put on the wire. Or maybe someone can recommend another tool.
(e.g., does 'ftp http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/openbsd/snapshots/ports.tar.gz'
suffer from this as well ?)

Re: current releases not updated?

[Peter N. M. Hansteen]

On Wed, Mar 07, 2012 at 09:07:32AM +0100, Didier Wiroth wrote:

> In the past current os packages were updated more often, is there a
> reason why packages are (somewhat old) or are there some changes in
> current update behavior?

There was a similar pause in production of snapshots and their packages 
around release-cutting time about half a year ago too.  I'd expect snapshot 
updates to resume soonish, but I have no firm dates or actual officialish info. 

- Peter

-- 
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/
"Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic"
delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.

xxxterm & http download weirdness

[Mihai Popescu]

Hello,

I was starting a download of ports from
http://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/openbsd/snapshots/ports.tar.gz to compare
it with an old archive from a mirror. As you can see, the file size is
listed as 20.7M, but what I got is a 220M file which is   corrupted as
reported by tar. The fact is that artfiles.org mirror works fine. If I
watch the bigger file inside download window, it shows 20.7M but after
that keeps incrementing till ~ 220M.

Is anyone experiencing this ?

xxxterm-1.10.0v0 (without configuration file)
OpenBSD 5.1 (GENERIC) #160: Sun Feb 12 09:46:33 MST 2012
dera...@i386.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC

current releases not updated?

[Didier Wiroth]

Hello,
After checking the ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/snapshots/amd64
directory for the latest releases, I saw that the latest build is from
early/mid February, same with packages directory.
In the past current os packages were updated more often, is there a
reason why packages are (somewhat old) or are there some changes in
current update behavior?
Thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Didier