RE: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[leo_tck]

theo wrote:
>
> Unfortunately we are still stuck here:
>
> 0. No code being developered, email and wiki discussion, gnashing of teeth

Seems par for the course these days. Blah blah, entitlement, whatnot,
and no work being done.

--zeur.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Theo de Raadt]

> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Stuart Henderson  
> wrote:
> > What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
> > in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
> > data on the disk.
> >
> > This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some
> > BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
> > only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
> > it's an AHCI controller.
> 
> Would a config flag for ahci(4) that when enabled, forces it to attach
> to the Intel RAID PCI IDs, work here, or would that have to be handled
> at a lower level?
> 
> If so, users who have a broken BIOS or are willing to accept the risk
> of destroying their RAID metadata could enable the flag with UKC, but
> the defaults would remain safe.

An option which noone will use because they aren't aware they need to
use it?  That isn't helpful.

1. It would be better if the metadata are identified, and at minimum the
   proto disklabel is down-adjusted to protect them.

2. When that safely does the read operations, next step is to parse them
   in more detail as feed-stock for softraid.

3. Then the final detail is to have softraid initialization capable of
   creating such metadata.

Unfortunately we are still stuck here:

0. No code being developered, email and wiki discussion, gnashing of teeth

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Andrew Daugherity]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Stuart Henderson  wrote:
> What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
> in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
> data on the disk.
>
> This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some
> BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
> only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
> it's an AHCI controller.

Would a config flag for ahci(4) that when enabled, forces it to attach
to the Intel RAID PCI IDs, work here, or would that have to be handled
at a lower level?

If so, users who have a broken BIOS or are willing to accept the risk
of destroying their RAID metadata could enable the flag with UKC, but
the defaults would remain safe.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Stefan Sperling]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 03:16:44AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> Boasty? I just try to help you to fix this bug by providing the
> information I've found. It's hard to fix it by myself because of the
> several times mentioned reasons. If you don't want to fix it just
> because you don't want I can live with that.

Of course, people who don't suffer from this particular problem don't
want to fix it. They simply don't have any need to fix it.

The problem has been acknowledged, and people have suggested workarounds,
and given you reasons why it's not immediately solvable without more effort
on your part. That's where this conversion could have ended with a one liner
from you such as "OK, bummer. Anyway, thank you for your time" and it would
have been entirely appropriate.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2017/10/12 00:18, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Stuart Henderson  
> wrote:
> > On 2017-10-11, Rostislav Krasny  wrote:
> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Eric Furman  
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>  I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
>  controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
>  desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
>  RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
>  this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.
> >>>
> >>> I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
> >>> And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
> >>> modern desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
> >>
> >> Most desktop users don't change BIOS settings. They just try a
> >> software and if it doesn't work they usually throw it away and
> >> consider that software as bad or broken. In case of dual-boot they
> >> also depend on the previously installed OS. In case of already
> >> installed Windows changing the storage controller mode in BIOS from
> >> RAID to AHCI leads to BSoD. After all not supporting a common BIOS
> >> configuration leads to loss of users.
> >>
> >> What is not good in RAID mode without actual RAID array, except the
> >> fact OpenBSD doesn't run on it?
> >
> > What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
> > in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
> > data on the disk.
> 
> This is not the case.

Yes that *IS* the case. What is going to happen if you, for example,
modify the DOS-style partition table on only one component of the array?
Writing data out-of-sync between the disks counts as corrupting the
array as far as I'm concerned.

>   Can you identify RAID mode without RAID array
> and for now support only this? That could be a good compromise.

Yes that might be possible. It might also be possible to support the
foreign metadata in softraid.

> > This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some
> > BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
> > only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
> > it's an AHCI controller.
> 
> Yet another reason to support RAID mode without RAID array.

Yes it would be useful for those users who are affected by it.
Perhaps one of them will be sufficiently motivated to do the work.
(From past experience what actually happens is they build a
custom kernel with the PCI ID added and forget about it until
upgrade time).

> > I don't think we (developers) are particularly bothered about users
> > who can't be bothered to change an existing BIOS setting.
> 
> Even if they can it could be too late, as in my case with Windows.
> This is lose-lose situation. You just lose users and popularity.

http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html says nothing about popularity.
It's nice to provide something that is useful to others, but other
things are more important to the project.

RE: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[leo_tck]

Don't mind if I jump in.

"Rostislav Krasny"  wrote:
>
> Boasty? I just try to help you to fix this bug by providing the
> information I've found. It's hard to fix it by myself because of the
> several times mentioned reasons. If you don't want to fix it just
> because you don't want I can live with that.

You appear unaware of the slippery slope. They're overworked already (or
appear to be, but I very much believe it). Let's just imagine they'll be
happy to make an exception here, and write the workaround that will make
your broken machine work. 'cause when lunix does it, it's a good idea!

And then tomorrow I'll insist they fix the wdc(4) caps probe & print
issue for me -- after all, I'm not familiar enough with the code, so
they should do it, shouldn't they?! And again someone will pop up with
an "important" problem. And another. And another. And before you know
it, you can bring flowers to Theo & co. in hospital after their heart
sugery. Oh, and can they fix this and that little problem too when they
recover?

UNIX was not made for people who are just willing, or able, to use.

> Bye

*waves*

--schaafuit.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:57 AM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Mike Larkin  wrote:
>> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:36:11AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> >> >> You just lose users and popularity.
>> >> >
>> >> > In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
>> >> > trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
>> >> > worrying about your problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
>> >> > about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
>> >> > problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
>> >> > developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
>> >> > they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
>> >> > Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
>> >> >
>> >> > The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
>> >> > try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of 
>> >> > us.
>> >> > That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing 
>> >> > to
>> >> > do with it.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
>> >> OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.
>> >>
>> >> I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
>> >> software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
>> >> enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
>> >> Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
>> >> the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
>> >> part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
>> >> seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
>> >> able to identify its presence.
>> >>
>> >> I found it there:
>> >> https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
>> >> https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h
>> >>
>> >> Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
>> >> development, so the above information should be good:
>> >> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
>> >> ===
>> >> The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
>> >> source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
>> >> metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
>> >> server platforms.
>> >> ===
>> >>
>> >
>> > Sounds like you've already done most of the research.
>> >
>> > Your diff to implement this will be most welcome on tech@.
>>
>> As I already told I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even
>> don't have a working OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself. I just
>> googled for the technical information.
>>
>
> Oh, so you are just some boasty guy on the net
>
> I get it

Boasty? I just try to help you to fix this bug by providing the
information I've found. It's hard to fix it by myself because of the
several times mentioned reasons. If you don't want to fix it just
because you don't want I can live with that.

Bye

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Mike Larkin]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:56:19AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Mike Larkin  wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:36:11AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> >> >> You just lose users and popularity.
> >> >
> >> > In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
> >> > trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
> >> > worrying about your problem.
> >> >
> >> > At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
> >> > about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
> >> > problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
> >> > developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
> >> > they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
> >> > Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
> >> >
> >> > The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
> >> > try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of 
> >> > us.
> >> > That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
> >> > do with it.
> >>
> >> I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
> >> OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.
> >>
> >> I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
> >> software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
> >> enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
> >> Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
> >> the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
> >> part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
> >> seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
> >> able to identify its presence.
> >>
> >> I found it there:
> >> https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
> >> https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h
> >>
> >> Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
> >> development, so the above information should be good:
> >> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
> >> ===
> >> The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
> >> source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
> >> metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
> >> server platforms.
> >> ===
> >>
> >
> > Sounds like you've already done most of the research.
> >
> > Your diff to implement this will be most welcome on tech@.
> 
> As I already told I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even
> don't have a working OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself. I just
> googled for the technical information.
> 

Then it sounds like you have a fantastic learning opportunity here!

-ml

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Theo de Raadt]

> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Mike Larkin  wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:36:11AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
> >> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> >> >> You just lose users and popularity.
> >> >
> >> > In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
> >> > trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
> >> > worrying about your problem.
> >> >
> >> > At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
> >> > about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
> >> > problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
> >> > developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
> >> > they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
> >> > Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
> >> >
> >> > The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
> >> > try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of 
> >> > us.
> >> > That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
> >> > do with it.
> >>
> >> I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
> >> OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.
> >>
> >> I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
> >> software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
> >> enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
> >> Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
> >> the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
> >> part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
> >> seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
> >> able to identify its presence.
> >>
> >> I found it there:
> >> https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
> >> https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h
> >>
> >> Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
> >> development, so the above information should be good:
> >> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
> >> ===
> >> The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
> >> source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
> >> metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
> >> server platforms.
> >> ===
> >>
> >
> > Sounds like you've already done most of the research.
> >
> > Your diff to implement this will be most welcome on tech@.
> 
> As I already told I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even
> don't have a working OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself. I just
> googled for the technical information.
> 

Oh, so you are just some boasty guy on the net

I get it

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Mike Larkin  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:36:11AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
>> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> >> You just lose users and popularity.
>> >
>> > In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
>> > trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
>> > worrying about your problem.
>> >
>> > At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
>> > about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
>> > problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
>> > developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
>> > they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
>> > Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
>> >
>> > The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
>> > try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of us.
>> > That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
>> > do with it.
>>
>> I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
>> OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.
>>
>> I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
>> software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
>> enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
>> Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
>> the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
>> part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
>> seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
>> able to identify its presence.
>>
>> I found it there:
>> https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
>> https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h
>>
>> Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
>> development, so the above information should be good:
>> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
>> ===
>> The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
>> source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
>> metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
>> server platforms.
>> ===
>>
>
> Sounds like you've already done most of the research.
>
> Your diff to implement this will be most welcome on tech@.

As I already told I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even
don't have a working OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself. I just
googled for the technical information.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Mike Larkin]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 02:36:11AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> >> You just lose users and popularity.
> >
> > In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
> > trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
> > worrying about your problem.
> >
> > At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
> > about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
> > problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
> > developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
> > they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
> > Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
> >
> > The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
> > try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of us.
> > That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
> > do with it.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
> OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.
> 
> I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
> software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
> enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
> Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
> the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
> part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
> seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
> able to identify its presence.
> 
> I found it there:
> https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
> https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h
> 
> Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
> development, so the above information should be good:
> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
> ===
> The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
> source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
> metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
> server platforms.
> ===
> 

Sounds like you've already done most of the research.

Your diff to implement this will be most welcome on tech@.

-ml

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Stefan Sperling  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> You just lose users and popularity.
>
> In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
> trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
> worrying about your problem.
>
> At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
> about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
> problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
> developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
> they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
> Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
>
> The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
> try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of us.
> That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
> do with it.

I'm not familiar with the OpenBSD code and I even don't have a working
OpenBSD system to try fixing it by myself.

I think you can easily identify hard disks that are not part of any
software RAID array and support only them when the RAID mode is
enabled in BIOS. You can do it by looking for the 0xa92b4efc "Magic
Number" of the RAID superblock at the end of the disk and at 4K from
the beginning of the disk. If it's NOT present then this disk is not
part of any RAID array and you may use it directly as in AHCI mode. It
seems you don't have to understand the whole RAID metadata but only be
able to identify its presence.

I found it there:
https://raid.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/RAID_superblock_formats
https://github.com/neilbrown/mdadm/blob/master/md_p.h

Also Intel officially recomends the mdadm tool and participated in its
development, so the above information should be good:
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/rst-linux-paper.pdf
===
The recommended software RAID implementation in Linux* is the open
source MD RAID package. Intel has enhanced MD RAID to support RST
metadata and OROM and it is validated and supported by Intel for
server platforms.
===

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Theo de Raadt]

> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> > You just lose users and popularity.
> 
> In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
> trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
> worrying about your problem.
> 
> At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
> about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
> problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
> developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
> they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
> Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.
> 
> The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
> try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of us.
> That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
> do with it.

damn straight

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Stefan Sperling]

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:18:52AM +0300, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> You just lose users and popularity.

In this community, your statement has the opposite effect of what it is
trying to achieve. It puts developers off and discourages them from
worrying about your problem.

At any given moment, there are enough problems developers have to worry
about already. Hardware they want to use which does not work yet, new
problems people report in code they've recently changed, chasing new
developments in code they've ported from other projects, new features
they want to implement, etc. etc.; all stacked against limited time.
Worrying about popularity on top of it all would just be distracting.

The mindset here is that if you really want something fixed in OpenBSD,
try to fix it yourself, and then try to share your fix with the rest of us.
That's how, collectively, we produce value, and popularity has nothing to
do with it.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Sterling Archer]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Rostislav Krasny  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Stuart Henderson  
> wrote:
>> On 2017-10-11, Rostislav Krasny  wrote:
>>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Eric Furman  
>>> wrote:
 On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
> controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
> desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
> RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
> this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.

 I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
 And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
 modern desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
>>>
>>> Most desktop users don't change BIOS settings. They just try a
>>> software and if it doesn't work they usually throw it away and
>>> consider that software as bad or broken. In case of dual-boot they
>>> also depend on the previously installed OS. In case of already
>>> installed Windows changing the storage controller mode in BIOS from
>>> RAID to AHCI leads to BSoD. After all not supporting a common BIOS
>>> configuration leads to loss of users.
>>>
>>> What is not good in RAID mode without actual RAID array, except the
>>> fact OpenBSD doesn't run on it?
>>
>> What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
>> in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
>> data on the disk.
>
> This is not the case. Can you identify RAID mode without RAID array
> and for now support only this? That could be a good compromise.
>
>> This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some
>> BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
>> only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
>> it's an AHCI controller.
>
> Yet another reason to support RAID mode without RAID array.
>
>> I don't think we (developers) are particularly bothered about users
>> who can't be bothered to change an existing BIOS setting.
>
> Even if they can it could be too late, as in my case with Windows.
> This is lose-lose situation. You just lose users and popularity.
>

FWIW, you can change the SATA emulation mode to AHCI in the
HP setup utility, and making windows not BSoD when you switch
the controller from RAID mode to AHCI is also trivially easy.

-- 
:wq!

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Stuart Henderson  wrote:
> On 2017-10-11, Rostislav Krasny  wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Eric Furman  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
 I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
 controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
 desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
 RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
 this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.
>>>
>>> I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
>>> And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
>>> modern desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
>>
>> Most desktop users don't change BIOS settings. They just try a
>> software and if it doesn't work they usually throw it away and
>> consider that software as bad or broken. In case of dual-boot they
>> also depend on the previously installed OS. In case of already
>> installed Windows changing the storage controller mode in BIOS from
>> RAID to AHCI leads to BSoD. After all not supporting a common BIOS
>> configuration leads to loss of users.
>>
>> What is not good in RAID mode without actual RAID array, except the
>> fact OpenBSD doesn't run on it?
>
> What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
> in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
> data on the disk.

This is not the case. Can you identify RAID mode without RAID array
and for now support only this? That could be a good compromise.

> This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some
> BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
> only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
> it's an AHCI controller.

Yet another reason to support RAID mode without RAID array.

> I don't think we (developers) are particularly bothered about users
> who can't be bothered to change an existing BIOS setting.

Even if they can it could be too late, as in my case with Windows.
This is lose-lose situation. You just lose users and popularity.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2017-10-11, Rostislav Krasny  wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Eric Furman  wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>>> I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
>>> controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
>>> desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
>>> RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
>>> this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.
>>
>> I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
>> And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
>> modern desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
>
> Most desktop users don't change BIOS settings. They just try a
> software and if it doesn't work they usually throw it away and
> consider that software as bad or broken. In case of dual-boot they
> also depend on the previously installed OS. In case of already
> installed Windows changing the storage controller mode in BIOS from
> RAID to AHCI leads to BSoD. After all not supporting a common BIOS
> configuration leads to loss of users.
>
> What is not good in RAID mode without actual RAID array, except the
> fact OpenBSD doesn't run on it?

What is not good is when you do have a RAID array, the controller is
in RAID mode, but OpenBSD doesn't understand the metadata, so it corrupts
data on the disk.

This is a difficult area. We don't want to corrupt data, but then some 
BIOS don't allow this option to be changed at all, and on others BIOS
only offer a choice between IDE and (unsupported) RAID, even though
it's an AHCI controller.

I don't think we (developers) are particularly bothered about users
who can't be bothered to change an existing BIOS setting.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:28 AM, Eric Furman  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
>> I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
>> controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
>> desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
>> RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
>> this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.
>
> I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
> And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
> modern desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Most desktop users don't change BIOS settings. They just try a
software and if it doesn't work they usually throw it away and
consider that software as bad or broken. In case of dual-boot they
also depend on the previously installed OS. In case of already
installed Windows changing the storage controller mode in BIOS from
RAID to AHCI leads to BSoD. After all not supporting a common BIOS
configuration leads to loss of users.

What is not good in RAID mode without actual RAID array, except the
fact OpenBSD doesn't run on it?

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[nanaya]

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017, at 12:28, Eric Furman wrote:
> 
> I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
> And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
> modern
> desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.
> 

To add another case point, at least on his system (HP Z230) it's an
option at all. I haven't tried openbsd yet but illumos has similar
problem on my HP Z210 (older version of same series) with RAID mode. The
only options available in BIOS are IDE or RAID mode.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Eric Furman]

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017, at 04:29 PM, Rostislav Krasny wrote:
> I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
> controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
> desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
> RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
> this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.

I disagree, but that's just my opinion.
And just because something is "a default BIOS configuration in all
modern
desktop computers" doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Rostislav Krasny]

I think it's worth to be supported. The RAID mode of storage
controller seems to be a default BIOS configuration in all modern
desktop computers. I think most desktop users don't configure any real
RAID and continue to use their disks as separate devices. If at least
this RAID configuration is supported it would be a great progress.

BTW attaching the dmesg output when booted from the 6.2 installation
media in RAID mode.

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:08 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
> This is kind of intentional, since noone has put effort into making
> softraid understand the disk-binding logic found in the BIOS-RAID
> sectors.  Maybe we should reconsider, dunno.
>
>> I've just tried to install the amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 and it doesn't see
>> hard disks when controller in RAID mode (BIOS configuration). If I
>> change it to AHCI mode (in BIOS) it can see them.
>>
>> Although I don't use RAID capabilities I can't switch to the AHCI mode
>> because I have Windows 7 installed when the storage controller was in
>> RAID mode (default in my BIOS).
>>
>> Is it a know bug/limitation? Various Linuxes and FreeBSD 11.1 work
>> properly with my disk controller and see all the disks, even in RAID
>> mode.
>>
>> My hardware:
>> HP Z230 desktop with Intel C226 chipset, Intel Core i7 4790 CPU and 16
>> GB of RAM.
>> Hard disks:
>> [1] 238GB SanDisk SD8SBAT256G1122 (SSD)
>> [2] 931GB Western Digital WDC WD10EZEX-60M2NA0 (SATA)
>>
>> Installation media:
>> install62.fs flashed on a USB drive.
OpenBSD 6.2 (RAMDISK_CD) #132: Tue Oct  3 21:26:51 MDT 2017
dera...@amd64.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/RAMDISK_CD
real mem = 16835059712 (16055MB)
avail mem = 16321089536 (15565MB)
mainbus0 at root
bios0 at mainbus0: SMBIOS rev. 2.7 @ 0xc08d2018 (85 entries)
bios0: vendor Hewlett-Packard version "L51 v01.55" date 10/18/2016
bios0: Hewlett-Packard HP Z230 Tower Workstation
acpi0 at bios0: rev 2
acpi0: tables DSDT FACP APIC FPDT SSDT SSDT SSDT MCFG HPET SSDT SSDT SSDT SLIC 
MSDM ASF! TCPA DMAR
acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee0: PC-AT compat
cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor)
cpu0: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4790 CPU @ 3.60GHz, 3592.14 MHz
cpu0: 
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,DS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE,SSE3,PCLMUL,DTES64,MWAIT,DS-CPL,VMX,SMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,SDBG,FMA3,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,PCID,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,x2APIC,MOVBE,POPCNT,DEADLINE,AES,XSAVE,AVX,F16C,RDRAND,NXE,PAGE1GB,RDTSCP,LONG,LAHF,ABM,PERF,ITSC,FSGSBASE,BMI1,AVX2,SMEP,BMI2,ERMS,INVPCID,SENSOR,ARAT
cpu0: 256KB 64b/line 8-way L2 cache
cpu0: TSC frequency 3592143080 Hz
cpu0: apic clock running at 99MHz
cpu0: mwait min=64, max=64, C-substates=0.2.1.2.4, IBE
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
cpu at mainbus0: not configured
ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 2 pa 0xfec0, version 20, 24 pins
acpiprt0 at acpi0: bus 0 (PCI0)
acpiprt1 at acpi0: bus 1 (RP01)
acpiprt2 at acpi0: bus 2 (RP04)
acpiprt3 at acpi0: bus -1 (P0P2)
acpiprt4 at acpi0: bus -1 (PEG0)
acpiec0 at acpi0: not present
acpicpu at acpi0 not configured
acpipwrres at acpi0 not configured
acpipwrres at acpi0 not configured
acpitz at acpi0 not configured
acpitz at acpi0 not configured
"INT3F0D" at acpi0 not configured
"PNP0F03" at acpi0 not configured
"IFX0102" at acpi0 not configured
"PNP0C0C" at acpi0 not configured
"PNP0C14" at acpi0 not configured
"PNP0C0B" at acpi0 not configured
"PNP0C0B" at acpi0 not configured
pci0 at mainbus0 bus 0
pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 "Intel Core 4G Host" rev 0x06
"Intel HD Graphics 4600" rev 0x06 at pci0 dev 2 function 0 not configured
"Intel Core 4G HD Audio" rev 0x06 at pci0 dev 3 function 0 not configured
xhci0 at pci0 dev 20 function 0 "Intel 8 Series xHCI" rev 0x05: msi
usb0 at xhci0: USB revision 3.0
uhub0 at usb0 configuration 1 interface 0 "Intel xHCI root hub" rev 3.00/1.00 
addr 1
em0 at pci0 dev 25 function 0 "Intel I217-LM" rev 0x05: msi, address 
c4:34:6b:5c:cc:16
ehci0 at pci0 dev 26 function 0 "Intel 8 Series USB" rev 0x05: apic 2 int 16
usb1 at ehci0: USB revision 2.0
uhub1 at usb1 configuration 1 interface 0 "Intel EHCI root hub" rev 2.00/1.00 
addr 1
"Intel 8 Series HD Audio" rev 0x05 at pci0 dev 27 function 0 not configured
ppb0 at pci0 dev 28 function 0 "Intel 8 Series PCIE" rev 0xd5: msi
pci1 at ppb0 bus 1
ppb1 at pci0 dev 28 function 3 "Intel 8 Series PCIE" rev 0xd5: msi
pci2 at ppb1 bus 2
ppb2 at pci2 dev 0 function 0 "ITExpress IT8893E PCIE-PCI" rev 0x52
pci3 at ppb2 bus 3
ehci1 at pci0 dev 29 function 0 "Intel 8 Series USB" rev 0x05: apic 2 int 23
usb2 at ehci1: USB revision 2.0
uhub2 at usb2 configuration 1 interface 0 "Intel EHCI root hub" rev 2.00/1.00 
addr 1
"Intel C226 LPC" rev 0x05 at pci0 dev 31 function 0 not configured
pciide0 at pci0 dev 31 function 2 "Intel 82801H RAID" rev 0x05: DMA, channel 0 
wired to native-PCI, 

Re: amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 doesn't see hard disks when controller in RAID mode

[Theo de Raadt]

This is kind of intentional, since noone has put effort into making
softraid understand the disk-binding logic found in the BIOS-RAID
sectors.  Maybe we should reconsider, dunno.

> I've just tried to install the amd64 OpenBSD 6.2 and it doesn't see
> hard disks when controller in RAID mode (BIOS configuration). If I
> change it to AHCI mode (in BIOS) it can see them.
> 
> Although I don't use RAID capabilities I can't switch to the AHCI mode
> because I have Windows 7 installed when the storage controller was in
> RAID mode (default in my BIOS).
> 
> Is it a know bug/limitation? Various Linuxes and FreeBSD 11.1 work
> properly with my disk controller and see all the disks, even in RAID
> mode.
> 
> My hardware:
> HP Z230 desktop with Intel C226 chipset, Intel Core i7 4790 CPU and 16
> GB of RAM.
> Hard disks:
> [1] 238GB SanDisk SD8SBAT256G1122 (SSD)
> [2] 931GB Western Digital WDC WD10EZEX-60M2NA0 (SATA)
> 
> Installation media:
> install62.fs flashed on a USB drive.
>